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  1. #1
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    Did they ever test record Cindy for background?

    I know this sound funny but did they ever record Cindy just to get an idea what she would sound like on a song? I was listening to Then from the Reflections album and Heaven must have sent you. I can't seems to hear Mary in the mix and wondered if these song were recorded to test Cindy's voice as background for Diana. When Cindy and Mary do background or blend together, I think, Mary is normally the more prominent one so that's why I wonder about this.
    Last edited by TYK1986; 10-07-2020 at 02:08 PM.

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    the story goes that Cindy met with D, M, Berry and a couple others to audition and talk. She sang You Keep Me Hangin' On.

    I think between all of this and her years of singing with the Bluebelles [[a group they had performed with and watched) was sufficient. This was all happening at a breakneck pace

    the infamous New Orleans duet performance was on April 23, 1967. the hollywood bowl show was April 29. I don't know how much of the search occurred earlier. Surely they had initially met with Cindy prior. But the meeting at Berry's house and decision to use Cindy at Hollywood Bowl happened swiftly after NOLA. I don't know of any performance dates in between NOLA and Hollywood.

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    I meant more immediately after she officially joined in July. Unlike the Vandellas and Marvelettes, who were mostly replaced by the Andantes or who ever was available, the Supremes seemed to still sing their own background, although we know not on all songs. Didn't Jean record a few demo's just to get a feel of how she would sound.

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    Actually the vandellas were still recording going into 68 until I can’t Dance. The marvelettes were replaced starting in 66. It seems that once HDH left is when Mary and Cindy started to record less.
    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    I meant more immediately after she officially joined in July. Unlike the Vandellas and Marvelettes, who were mostly replaced by the Andantes or who ever was available, the Supremes seemed to still sing their own background, although we know not on all songs. Didn't Jean record a few demo's just to get a feel of how she would sound.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Actually the vandellas were still recording going into 68 until I can’t Dance. The marvelettes were replaced starting in 66. It seems that once HDH left is when Mary and Cindy started to record less.
    you guys need to listen more closely to those albums. If anything, at least with the Marvelettes, there were producers who were still opting to use a blend of the Andantes and the Marvelettes on recordings. Not always, but it seems if anything, The Marvelettes were featured more times on recordings than the Vandellas or Supremes. Everyone has gotten used to the "they couldn't harmonize so they were left off the records" mentality when it comes to The Marvelettes that few realize they were actually there more that people realize. By contrast, after 66, it seems the Vandellas were featured less on albums with each passing year and ditto for the Supremes.

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    I can clearly hear the Marvelettes on the Pink Album but after that I struggle with the exception of a few songs. Besides that I do like the Marvelettes on the background. It always gives that more down to earth and group sound. Same with the Vandellas after Watch Out. Never really been able to pick out Lois on any song. The background vocals on Honey Chile for example are way too soft. Cindy seems to have recorded background mostly during late '67 and early '68 during the timeframe of the recording for songs for Reflections. But does anyone hear Mary on the Heaven Must have sent you and Then? You can hear both Cindy and Mary at the end of Stay in my lonely arms when the Andantes are not in the mix anymore very clearly. Because I can't hear Mary on the two songs mentioned I was wondering if they were like test for Cindy on background. I would assume that if Cindy was singing background that Mary would be there too.

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    I can hear Mary on both songs you mentioned. On Honey Chile I can hear Roz. As far as for the Marvelettes, I do know they blend both the Andantes and the Marvelettes vocals together.
    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    I can clearly hear the Marvelettes on the Pink Album but after that I struggle with the exception of a few songs. Besides that I do like the Marvelettes on the background. It always gives that more down to earth and group sound. Same with the Vandellas after Watch Out. Never really been able to pick out Lois on any song. The background vocals on Honey Chile for example are way too soft. Cindy seems to have recorded background mostly during late '67 and early '68 during the timeframe of the recording for songs for Reflections. But does anyone hear Mary on the Heaven Must have sent you and Then? You can hear both Cindy and Mary at the end of Stay in my lonely arms when the Andantes are not in the mix anymore very clearly. Because I can't hear Mary on the two songs mentioned I was wondering if they were like test for Cindy on background. I would assume that if Cindy was singing background that Mary would be there too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    I meant more immediately after she officially joined in July. Unlike the Vandellas and Marvelettes, who were mostly replaced by the Andantes or who ever was available, the Supremes seemed to still sing their own background, although we know not on all songs. Didn't Jean record a few demo's just to get a feel of how she would sound.
    i think the difference is that background singing is more "standard" from song to song, group to group. of course there are some unique differences but the real key is about excellent harmonizing and blend.

    you bring up Jean and i don't think that's an apples to apples comparison. by definition, the lead is going to have very different styles and tones. Gladys Horton, Diana Ross, Gladys Knight and Jean Terrell might all approach a song very differently. but frankly they could have all utilized the same backing tracks

    now this isn't to downplay or minimize the contributions of the backing vocals. If you can't harmonize well, it's gonna be awful. and BG singers have the additional task of having to carry the harmony notes versus the melody. that too makes it more complex.

    So i think they probably didn't "test" Cindy like the did with Jean because it's two totally different types of singing. I'm sure they at least tried to figure out her range and not arrange vocals that were too high.

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    I believe I read in Mary's book that when she was rehearsing Cindy that she had to make adjustments in her singing to accommodate the proper background blend. She stated that Florence was a louder first soprano but that Cindy was a much softer, lower second soprano. I believe since Cindy was was lower that Mary not only had to change her range but also how loudly she sang to give the backgrounds strength. Mary also wrote that Cindy was a fast study and they were pleased with her progress. Mary had to make a number of adjustments depending on who her partners were-Flo, Cindy, Lynda, Scherrie and Susaye. I think by this time BG had planned to focus on Diana and if Cindy was good at concerts and the routines he was fine with that and would just have the in house Andantes used on recordings since he was focusing on making Diana the sound and not the Supremes. It was a pleasure by 1975 when Scherrie joined Mary and Cindy and they were the ones used, by this time Mary and Cindy had perfected their blend and sounded wonderful together along with Scherrie who provided a great blend live and on recordings as well.

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    Sup-fan didn't mean to compare Jean and Cindy lol. I mean I assume that any company wouldn't just put any person on a record. Even background has to sound right for a song to work. So assume they did some test recordings for when they would use Mary and Cindy. I will have to listen to the songs I mentioned with other headphones and see if I can hear Mary in the mix. Another 2 songs where I can clearly hear both Mary and Cindy are Will this be the day and I'll set you free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Sup-fan didn't mean to compare Jean and Cindy lol. I mean I assume that any company wouldn't just put any person on a record. Even background has to sound right for a song to work. So assume they did some test recordings for when they would use Mary and Cindy. I will have to listen to the songs I mentioned with other headphones and see if I can hear Mary in the mix. Another 2 songs where I can clearly hear both Mary and Cindy are Will this be the day and I'll set you free.
    lol oh i know. i just wonder if you're giving motown more credit. they pretty clearly had identified that BG vocals were just instrumentation. look at how easily and freely they shifted vocalists around. motown wasn't looking to create a DRATS sound. they needed vocal augmentation to create backing tracks for Diana Ross. I'd guess that since they knew Cindy could sing, they knew she was a soprano - fine. get her in the studio

    I do see your point though and maybe with later groupings that should have been more of a consideration. IMO the JML lineup suffered from 2 very distinct voices [[J and L) and the blend of the 3 didn't work as well. Also when Susaye joined, she had such a unique voice and vocal abilities that the Hollands experimented with all sorts of ways to embellish the tracks with her.

    but no, i don't think in 67 they were approaching things in that manner

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    IMO looks were more important than "sound". Sure all the background singers had to be able to hold a note, or harmonize or blend but in my observation looks -skin complexion - were more important. Look at who Annette Sterling/Beard of the Martha & the Vandellas was replace with: Betty Kelly. Both ladies are stunningly beautiful and both have near identical skin complexion. When Wanda Rogers went out on maternity leave early on who did Motown get to replace her on tour? Florence Ballard. Both ladies are of a fairer/lighter skin complexion. When Gladys Horton was replace in '67, who did they find to replace her? Ann Bogan, both of a similar skin complexion. When Betty Kelly left, also in '67, who did they find to replace her? Lois Reeves... you should get the point by now..
    I remember years ago reading that one of the reasons that Cindy was picked to replace Florence was because of their resemblance. I, personally, don't think Florence and Cindy look anything alike, aside from having a lighter skin complexion, but I don't think they're similar at all.
    Last edited by SatansBlues; 10-08-2020 at 03:23 PM.

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    i think the Flo resemblance was one issue and then the fact that Cindy was just so damn nice. after all of the problems, that must have been a breath of fresh air. plus cindy really seemed to click with mary - they're possibly among the most glamorous pairings of Supreme backgrounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i think the Flo resemblance was one issue and then the fact that Cindy was just so damn nice.
    Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.
    What exactly did Cindy do to make anyone think that she wasn't nice? Was it because she took advantage of a once in a life time opportunity to join one of the hottest and most popular groups at the time? Most people could hardly find fault with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    What exactly did Cindy do to make anyone think that she wasn't nice? Was it because she took advantage of a once in a life time opportunity to join one of the hottest and most popular groups at the time? Most people could hardly find fault with that.
    Leaving Patti Labelle and The Bluebelles to join the Supremes most-likely wasn’t the reason her former partners were angered. I believe she negotiated, signed and began rehearsals without telling her current group partners. She jumped ship...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB View Post
    Leaving Patti Labelle and The Bluebelles to join the Supremes most-likely wasn’t the reason her former partners were angered. I believe she negotiated, signed and began rehearsals without telling her current group partners. She jumped ship...
    I'm sure Cindy would have been under strict instructions from Motown to not say a word to anyone until things were finalized. Didn't Motown have to negotiate a deal with Atlantic Records to get Cindy out of her contract? How much did Motown have to pay Atlantic Records? And who was that cost charged to; Motown, the Supremes or Cindy herself? I'm sure Motown instructed Cindy not to break the news to the other Bluebelles because it wasn't known publicly that Florence was on her way out of the Supremes. And I'm sure Atlantic would have double the cost of breaking her contract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    I'm sure Cindy would have been under strict instructions from Motown to not say a word to anyone until things were finalized. Didn't Motown have to negotiate a deal with Atlantic Records to get Cindy out of her contract? How much did Motown have to pay Atlantic Records? And who was that cost charged to; Motown, the Supremes or Cindy herself? I'm sure Motown instructed Cindy not to break the news to the other Bluebelles because it wasn't known publicly that Florence was on her way out of the Supremes. And I'm sure Atlantic would have double the cost of breaking her contract.
    Absent of verifiable facts I think your presentation makes lots of sense, knowing what we do about Motown, competitiveness in the music business, and business practices in general.

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    Makes a lot of sense SatansBlues. I would have done the same joining the biggest girl group ever if I could hold a note lol. I know some people might say be loyal to your group, and i can understand that, but what input did Cindy have in the Bluebelles? She didn't have much to say in the Supremes either but at least she was getting more income, better dresses [[so important lol), a lot more travelling and if you like that sort of thing go for it. Didn't one of the Bluebelles mention that Cindy sounded bland. So why make a fuzz of her leaving.

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    Sarah said she had a monotone voice
    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Makes a lot of sense SatansBlues. I would have done the same joining the biggest girl group ever if I could hold a note lol. I know some people might say be loyal to your group, and i can understand that, but what input did Cindy have in the Bluebelles? She didn't have much to say in the Supremes either but at least she was getting more income, better dresses [[so important lol), a lot more travelling and if you like that sort of thing go for it. Didn't one of the Bluebelles mention that Cindy sounded bland. So why make a fuzz of her leaving.

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    Thanks Blackguy69. My brains don't always wanna work along 100% .

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    it was publicly stated [[although not super loudly) that Cindy Birdsong appeared with the Supremes on stage at the Hollywood Bowl. that was in April 67. my understanding is that she had had a few discussions with them and just a few days of rehearsal before going on stage. it wasn't a long simmering process

    once she appeared with them, it's Patti's and the rest of the group's problem if they were "surprised." if their label or management was that blind or stupid to have totally missed the reports of Cindy being on stage then shame on Patti, Nona and Sarah for employing stupid managers. someone, somewhere, at sometime would have released a singer signed to Atlantic and part of the Bluebelles had appeared onstage with another group.

    yes - they had every right to be shocked in April

    no - they had no right to be shocked in July

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.
    no one is saying she was infallible. i think there's certainly some issues with how she handled the departure from the Bluebelles [[at least what i've learned and understood about it).

    Flo's dislike for Cindy would have been tied to the fact that cindy replaced her. not because of any specific action Cindy did herself. Flo was bitter about the whole situation.

    Diana's conflicts with Cindy would have arisen out of the strains and heavy stress they were all under but especially what Diana was under. all 3 girls struggled with the problems and pressures. there's a wonderful story though in Randy's book about Diana visiting MCJ after one of their shows and talking in the dressing room with them. and how the 3 of them had grown and matured and seemed closer then [[in 71) than in 69. that shows to me that the internal problems within the DRATS weren't necessarily or always personal. it was just a very tough situation

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post

    Flo's dislike for Cindy would have been tied to the fact that cindy replaced her. not because of any specific action Cindy did herself. Flo was bitter about the whole situation.
    Wasn’t it said that Cindy would sit out in the audience, right in Flo’s face and study her moves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    it was publicly stated [[although not super loudly) that Cindy Birdsong appeared with the Supremes on stage at the Hollywood Bowl. that was in April 67. my understanding is that she had had a few discussions with them and just a few days of rehearsal before going on stage. it wasn't a long simmering process

    once she appeared with them, it's Patti's and the rest of the group's problem if they were "surprised." if their label or management was that blind or stupid to have totally missed the reports of Cindy being on stage then shame on Patti, Nona and Sarah for employing stupid managers. someone, somewhere, at sometime would have released a singer signed to Atlantic and part of the Bluebelles had appeared onstage with another group.

    yes - they had every right to be shocked in April

    no - they had no right to be shocked in July
    When Patti tells the story of Cindy leaving the Bluebelles, I think she gets the timeline wrong. Or some of us assume that she's talking about July because that was when Flo was fired at the Flamingo.

    In her book, Patti mentions that Cindy called saying that she was going to miss a show but that she wasn't sick and not to worry. She then said the next call came from Motown, saying Cindy was joining the Supremes.

    I don't think this happened in July. More than likely, it was April. Cindy missed that Bluebelles' show because she was in Detroit, meeting with the group before appearing at the Bowl. The Bowl show was reported in the press so it is unlikely that the Bluebelles' didn't hear about it. Not to mention that Cindy was then showing up at dates watching Flo from the audience. She couldn't have done that while still traveling with the Bluebelles, who had their own gigs.

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    Cindy or not but someone had to do it eventually. The music industry is a hard environment and the hours are often hours most of us probably wouldn't want to do. The Supremes, Florence in this case, was not the only one who was replaced. Betty of the Vandellas also missed shows, says on Wikipedia so if anyone knows if this is true please let me know, and was replaced by Lois. David of the Temptations for other reasons I think, never been a huge fan of the Temps so don't know what happened etc. But I think Cindy did study the routines and they had the extra set of dresses but I'm not sure where I read that. Probably on the forum here . As for Florence disliking Cindy?? Not sure about that. I've seen photo's of them together and I think if she really didn't like Cindy she wouldn't even bother to pose with her. I don't think Florence is a person who would really dislike people but is more disappointed in them. Even in her 1975 interview she mentioned that her and Diana are like sisters and that friction, like with real brothers and sisters, happens.

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    I've never heard about Betty missing shows with the Vandellas. I do know her firing was very abrupt and Lois had to step in rather quickly. In fact it was just a few weeks after Flo was fired. I wonder if Martha figured the Supremes could do it, so could she.

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    Yes I've only read about it on Wikipedia [[terrible source for many things) and that they had altercations on stage. I was thinking about buying Martha's book but bought a Beach Boys book instead . I think Martha's book wasn't in my price range on Amazon. I do hear some sort of altercation on their live album and Martha say something like "you call that singing?" and then the sound muffles a bit.

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    according to Martha's book Betty was starting to date a guy in the band [[i think) and becoming friends with Winnie Brown - flo's cousin. animosity was growing between M and B and it got to the point where Betty would make snips on stage or do things that threw martha off.

    in regards to Rosalind, martha doesn't say as much. just that things soured and was asked to leave

    keep in mind Martha was hardly a stable figure during this time. lots of issues with drugs, guy trouble, etc.

    I've not heard stories from others so don't know about different POVs

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    Yes Martha and the Vandellas always confuses me as to when some of the members left. I read from different sources that Rosalind left in '68 and other '69. Then some articles [[MTV for example) that she choose to leave and others that she was asked to leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Yes Martha and the Vandellas always confuses me as to when some of the members left. I read from different sources that Rosalind left in '68 and other '69. Then some articles [[MTV for example) that she choose to leave and others that she was asked to leave.
    Yeah I had always thought Rosalind left in the spring of '69 but I think it may actually been the fall of '68. I believe she said she was called into Motown one day and was told Martha no longer wants to work with her.

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    On classic.motown.com [[just one the articles I've read) they say she left towards the end of '69 and then on youtube there clips of Sandra performing with them on the mike Douglas show in '68. I have heard that story about being called into Motown too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    On classic.motown.com [[just one the articles I've read) they say she left towards the end of '69 and then on youtube there clips of Sandra performing with them on the mike Douglas show in '68. I have heard that story about being called into Motown too.
    In an issue of A TOUCH OF CLASSIC SOUL, Rosalind said that she was called into Motown and told that Martha no longer wanted to sing with her. She said she tried to contact Martha but wasn't able to as Martha was ill.

    In her book, Martha mentioned that Rosalind filed a lawsuit against her afterwards, which Motown settled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Makes a lot of sense SatansBlues. I would have done the same joining the biggest girl group ever if I could hold a note lol. I know some people might say be loyal to your group, and i can understand that, but what input did Cindy have in the Bluebelles? She didn't have much to say in the Supremes either but at least she was getting more income, better dresses [[so important lol), a lot more travelling and if you like that sort of thing go for it. Didn't one of the Bluebelles mention that Cindy sounded bland. So why make a fuzz of her leaving.
    I love Love LOVE my Labelle [[group) but have always had the feeling that the women just 'get along' out of necessity. Probably goes back to the PL&tB days as well. At least, perhaps. And we know that our beloved Miss Patti is not the most ... benigant ... woman ever.

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    I think Patti and Nona are completely opposite in terms of personality. And Sarah has changed a lot too and isn't a peacemaker anymore. All three just grew in different directions, and once that happens it's hard to go back to the roles they played in Labelle 30 years ago. It's normal.

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    Totally unrelated: were Flo and Cindy the same shoe size?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Totally unrelated: were Flo and Cindy the same shoe size?
    Lol I think there's an interview where Diana says Florence's clothes and shoes fit Cindy.

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    Actually Cindy was slightly smaller than Flo. Now Flo wasn’t fat but for these dresses a pound or two gained can make a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    Lol I think there's an interview where Diana says Florence's clothes and shoes fit Cindy.

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    Flo was indeed not fat and like you say it was the dresses. I have never seen a photo where she looked over weight up till she left the Supremes. Cindy was more the same height as Mary and Diana but during her second run in the mid 70's she always looked a bit taller than Mary to me.

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    you can definitely see Flo's weight gain when comparing early and later pics during her Supremes' tenure.

    was she obese? no of course not. look at the pics of her in the dark blue sequins, around Jan 67 vs the pics of her and the girls on tv in the red fringe gowns. you can definitely see her face is heavier.

    she also had a very different figure and body type from Diana. some of the outfits frankly weren't as flattering on Flo - the empire waist chiffon gowns like the pink ones on Sullivan, made her figure look much larger than Diana's. it's not that flo was necessarily fat, just that she curvaceous figure would have been better suited to other looks

    Also as someone mentioned, these gowns were NOT forgiving in any way or form. a few pounds gained would mean costly alterations. Plus they spent a LOT of money on these gowns and to have recently purchased and expensive outfits not wearable because someone gained weight would be a problem

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    I never really understood what all all the hyperbole was about regarding Florence being overweight. On her very last photo shoot with the group in the Nevada Desert 67 she looks pretty trim. Diana on the contrary looks skin and bone.

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    Those dresses weren’t exactly form fitting, they were very loose
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I never really understood what all all the hyperbole was about regarding Florence being overweight. On her very last photo shoot with the group in the Nevada Desert 67 she looks pretty trim. Diana on the contrary looks skin and bone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.
    Cindy really is THAT nice. She got caught up in the group politics for a time and wasn’t proud of it, but, she’s really a kind, gentle, unselfish person. One of the most genuinely nice people I’ve ever met. She’s totally without guile, so she was easily led astray by others - think Betty White on Golden Girls but not as naive. I can’t imagine anyone not liking her unless they had an agenda that didn’t mesh well with her good nature.

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    Flo may not have been “fat” to some folks, but she was heavier than what was desired and, what I think the issue was, that she was on a trajectory to get huge. Her body weight increased by at least 25% in 3 years - that’s a horrible trend. She couldn’t fit into some stage wear and looked awful on Her last Ed Sullivan. Diana was scary thin, and Mary, with stuffed bra and butt, was perfect. Take 15 pound off Flo, add to Diana and they’d all be amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Flo may not have been “fat” to some folks, but she was heavier than what was desired and, what I think the issue was, that she was on a trajectory to get huge. Her body weight increased by at least 25% in 3 years - that’s a horrible trend. She couldn’t fit into some stage wear and looked awful on Her last Ed Sullivan. Diana was scary thin, and Mary, with stuffed bra and butt, was perfect. Take 15 pound off Flo, add to Diana and they’d all be amazing.
    Do you think Flo looked overweight on her last Ed Sullivan appearance?. She looks just fine to me. I have never seen a video clip or photo of Flo where i have thought she really did need to lose weight. I cannot say the same of Cindy Birdsong, who on occasion looked like she really did need to lose a few pounds.
    Personally, i don’t think Flo’s weight made her stand out or look less attractive and appealing when performing with the group. Dance steps yes. Weight no. Just my opinion.

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    and being overweight wasn't the specific reason for her dismissal. yeah they might have nagged her about trimming down but the real problem was her behavior.

    what's interesting is if you listen to the alt versions of the Supremes interview from 65, D and M give her some pretty snarky punches about weight!! the version on the 25th Anniversary set isn't so interesting but listen to the others that were put out on the More Hits EE and then DRATS singles package. Mary said Flo looks like a ham. Diana says she's a 3 and Mary chimes in that Flo is a 9! lol obviously they're being silly and goofy.

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    Lol I read the 65 interview in Ebony saying that both Diana and Mary were a size 5?while Flo was a size 8. Fast forward to less than 2 years later Diana was a 3/4 and Mary was 6/7 and Flo was a 12. The more telling story is on the last day Flo was a Supremes when Flo found Cindy ‘s outfit and put it on. This is when you see that they were not the same size. It was tight and looked ill fitting. So I’m assuming that Cindy was around a 9 maybe a 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    and being overweight wasn't the specific reason for her dismissal. yeah they might have nagged her about trimming down but the real problem was her behavior.

    what's interesting is if you listen to the alt versions of the Supremes interview from 65, D and M give her some pretty snarky punches about weight!! the version on the 25th Anniversary set isn't so interesting but listen to the others that were put out on the More Hits EE and then DRATS singles package. Mary said Flo looks like a ham. Diana says she's a 3 and Mary chimes in that Flo is a 9! lol obviously they're being silly and goofy.

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    I can't believe in October of 2020 that folks are still talking about a woman's weight. I would expect that from someone like Trump, but not here.

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    Not today Satan! lolol

    just had to say that hehehe

    although we're getting into the weeds on it, i don't think we're simply addressing the size of a woman. If that were the case, we'd also chat about Cindy's yo-yo'ing weight.

    The issue here, at least as how i see it, is the broader discussion of Flo's overall decline and unraveling. Some fans try to say Gordy simply fired Flo cuz she was fat. That doesn't seem to really be the issue actually. her general unhappiness seems to have manifested itself in a variety of ways - there were reports about how moody she was and how everyone around never really knew if today would be a good day or bad day, her skipping rehearsals, recordings, appearances, etc, the drinking, the weight gain, etc. So as i see it, we're discussing one element of a complex and intricate situation that did actually have massive implications on the group - the eventual departure of a founding member.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Not today Satan! lolol

    just had to say that hehehe

    although we're getting into the weeds on it, i don't think we're simply addressing the size of a woman. If that were the case, we'd also chat about Cindy's yo-yo'ing weight.

    The issue here, at least as how i see it, is the broader discussion of Flo's overall decline and unraveling. Some fans try to say Gordy simply fired Flo cuz she was fat. That doesn't seem to really be the issue actually. her general unhappiness seems to have manifested itself in a variety of ways - there were reports about how moody she was and how everyone around never really knew if today would be a good day or bad day, her skipping rehearsals, recordings, appearances, etc, the drinking, the weight gain, etc. So as i see it, we're discussing one element of a complex and intricate situation that did actually have massive implications on the group - the eventual departure of a founding member.
    How or why is it that no one else's weight gets discussed on SD? I've NEVER seen or read a discussion on any male singer's weight or any other female's weight, only Florence's. Florence left the Supreme's in the summer of 1967. But Gladys Horton also left the Marvelette's in '67 as did Betty Kelly from the Vandellas in the summer of '67. No one ever mentions their departure or why they left or why none of the female lead singers besides Diana Ross were offered solo contracts after leaving their groups: not Cal Gil, not Martha Reeves, not Gladys Horton, not Wanda Rogers. Yet David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, Dennis Edwards were all given contracts. Was it sexism? Now that's a topic worthy of discussion.

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