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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Yes, indeed they are. And when all the rivers of bile finally run dry the truth will remain - that Streisand and Ross dominated those around them as a result of talent, readiness and determination.
    For sure! There are many great female singers out there that have/had talent but did not think it necessary to put the work ethic in, and there are a great many others who were less gifted talent wise, but had a wonderful work ethic. There are very few who had that almost unique combination of both. Maybe Dionne Warwick and possibly Gladys Knight are the only possibilities that immediately spring to mind.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Yes, indeed they are. And when all the rivers of bile finally run dry the truth will remain - that Streisand and Ross dominated those around them as a result of talent, readiness and determination.
    And whoever doth speak a word against Diana Ross shall be cast into the fiery furnace to remain unforgiven in this age and the age to come. The testament of truth shall finally be revealed.
    Bottom line being, any Ross fans who consider her less then perfect better watch out.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    And whoever doth speak a word against Diana Ross shall be cast into the fiery furnace to remain unforgiven in this age and the age to come. The testament of truth shall finally be revealed.
    Bottom line being, any Ross fans who consider her less then perfect better watch out.
    lol no Ollie - you have to give us SOME leeway in order to discuss her 80s material

    but i agree, personal shots on Miss Ross are not appropriate

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    lol no Ollie - you have to give us SOME leeway in order to discuss her 80s material

    but i agree, personal shots on Miss Ross are not appropriate
    We can criticise her music until the cows come home. Much of her 80's output deserves nothing less, but i think people's perspectives have changed over the past few months. The world is in turmoil, and we all have a duty to be kinder and more considerate. That can be the only way forward. Ralph took swift and appropriate action at Monica Carver's tasteless post the other day which was welcomed by the vast majority of members on here. That was a hugely positive step forward and i think the forum will prove to be a most pleasant diversion from the worries and problems we are all enduring at the moment. Onwards and upwards!

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post

    but i agree, personal shots on Miss Ross are not appropriate
    Would personal shots include not liking a particular performance sup?. Of course not. We all have our likes and dislikes. It’s what makes things fun and interesting.
    I just find it a ‘tad annoying when someone tries to put others down for having contrasting opinions. It’s been proven to shut down threads and chase fans off faster then you can say M’s Ross.
    As was once pointed out by another poster. “You can be a fan without having to worship in the church of Diana”. The majority of fans appreciate this which is why the DR&S forum has been a much happier place of late.
    As Diana once proclaimed “It’s all for one....and one for all”.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Would personal shots include not liking a particular performance sup?. Of course not. We all have our likes and dislikes. It’s what makes things fun and interesting.
    I just find it a ‘tad annoying when someone tries to put others down for having contrasting opinions. It’s been proven to shut down threads and chase fans off faster then you can say M’s Ross.
    As was once pointed out by another poster. “You can be a fan without having to worship in the church of Diana”. The majority of fans appreciate this which is why the DR&S forum has been a much happier place of late.
    As Diana once proclaimed “It’s all for one....and one for all”.
    I could find fault with much of her 80's music and have not attempted to hide that in the past. I have also been critical of some of her actions and decisions. I love her many indiscretions. It makes me respect her all the more. I think Sup Fan was referring to personal and uncalled for attacks on her personal appearance and her family. It is perfectly fine to criticise a sub standard performance, or a ghastly song that she should never have recorded. Anything akin to that is fine and makes for a lively discussion, but we must leave the gutter stuff in the gutter where it belongs, and that goes for any performer, not just Diana.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Would personal shots include not liking a particular performance sup?. Of course not. We all have our likes and dislikes. It’s what makes things fun and interesting.
    I just find it a ‘tad annoying when someone tries to put others down for having contrasting opinions. It’s been proven to shut down threads and chase fans off faster then you can say M’s Ross.
    As was once pointed out by another poster. “You can be a fan without having to worship in the church of Diana”. The majority of fans appreciate this which is why the DR&S forum has been a much happier place of late.
    As Diana once proclaimed “It’s all for one....and one for all”.
    exactly - i'm all for respectful and intelligent dialog about what we do and don't like regarding their careers. i welcome the opposing viewpoints and find it great fun to hear differing opinions.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    We can criticise her music until the cows come home. Much of her 80's output deserves nothing less, but i think people's perspectives have changed over the past few months. The world is in turmoil, and we all have a duty to be kinder and more considerate. That can be the only way forward. Ralph took swift and appropriate action at Monica Carver's tasteless post the other day which was welcomed by the vast majority of members on here. That was a hugely positive step forward and i think the forum will prove to be a most pleasant diversion from the worries and problems we are all enduring at the moment. Onwards and upwards!
    Absolutely, i couldn’t agree more. To be perfectly honest i’m a little confused as to why we are even discussing such points. As far as I’m aware, up until the “rivers of bile crack”from the usual suspect this had been a perfectly civilised discussion lol.

  9. #59
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    i missed this Monica drama. not sure what happened but sounds exciting!! lol

    so back to the original topic here

    Mirror Mirror - i think the general consensus is that it's a fairly good DR song. maybe a few adjustments could have helped

    my question is, do you think this was a new "sound" that could have been further developed on the launch lp for her new label? was this something that could have been worth of the debut?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post

    Mirror Mirror - i think the general consensus is that it's a fairly good DR song. maybe a few adjustments could have helped

    my question is, do you think this was a new "sound" that could have been further developed on the launch lp for her new label? was this something that could have been worth of the debut?
    Quite possibly. I’m not crazy on the song, but Mirror Mirror” for me was most certainly one of the better songs on the album. I would rather there had been more songs of that genre then pop fluff such as ”Two Can Make It” or “It’s Never To Late”. It would have been a risky move to suddenly devote herself completely to rock/funk but who knows.

  11. #61
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    now i kinda like It's Never Too Late lol. but it is fluff. Two Can Make It is kinda useless.

    here's an idea for the album:

    1. a more rock version of WDFFIL - give it a bit more of an edge, reinterpret it and make it more exciting, harder
    2. sweet surrender - as is
    3. mirror mirror - i say keep as is, unless you want to do a longer lp version vs the 45
    4. sweet nothings - i like this one! lolol i know others don't but it's fun and funky
    5. work that body - keep the track and the title but make it not aerobic. make it steamy and sexy. a DIFFERENT kind of working that body lol
    6. Think i'm in love - i say keep as is

    Endless Love, two can make it and never too late - i guess ditch these. unless Never could somehow be reworked into less disco/pop and more pop/rock

    then you need to get a couple new songs. I think a big power rock ballad and another pop/rock tune.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    now i kinda like It's Never Too Late lol. but it is fluff. Two Can Make It is kinda useless.

    here's an idea for the album:

    1. a more rock version of WDFFIL - give it a bit more of an edge, reinterpret it and make it more exciting, harder
    2. sweet surrender - as is
    3. mirror mirror - i say keep as is, unless you want to do a longer lp version vs the 45
    4. sweet nothings - i like this one! lolol i know others don't but it's fun and funky
    5. work that body - keep the track and the title but make it not aerobic. make it steamy and sexy. a DIFFERENT kind of working that body lol
    6. Think i'm in love - i say keep as is

    Endless Love, two can make it and never too late - i guess ditch these. unless Never could somehow be reworked into less disco/pop and more pop/rock

    then you need to get a couple new songs. I think a big power rock ballad and another pop/rock tune.
    Keep Sweet Nothings? Oh hell no! It's truly awful and in my all time bottom 5 of Ross songs. Sadly she liked it. She is a big fan of Brenda Lee and i think it would have been included even if Quincy had been at the helm. I like most of your other ideas for the album. Work that body could have worked had it been given a more sexy and funky approach. Even Two can make it and it's never too late could have turned out well had better production and arranging been utilised, but the solo Endless Love should not have made the cut. Singing it solo on stage is one thing, but she should have left the studio version at the front door and closed it firmly in it's face.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    Keep Sweet Nothings? Oh hell no! It's truly awful and in my all time bottom 5 of Ross songs. Sadly she liked it. She is a big fan of Brenda Lee and i think it would have been included even if Quincy had been at the helm.
    The solo Endless Love should not have made the cut. Singing it solo on stage is one thing, but she should have left the studio version at the front door and closed it firmly in it's face.
    Many thanks for providing my first chuckle of the day. I think a slightly more rock arrangement of “Sweet Nothings” might have worked better. It would have been in keeping with the vibe of “Mirror Mirror. As it is, it comes across as being pretty tepid.
    Regarding her solo version of “Endless Love”, i am in complete and utter agreement.
    Totalling Diana’s entire recording career, there are only three songs i am unable to sit through. In order they are, Number 1 “Ave Maria”. 2. “Girls”. 3. Solo “Endless Love”.
    Not bad when you consider she’s been recording for sixty years.

  14. #64
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    I have never heard the solo Endless Love in its entirety. I just couldn’t.

    I am also a fan of Brenda Lee. Out of Brenda’s great catalogue, she picks Sweet Nothings? Good gracious .....
    Last edited by Circa 1824; 10-03-2020 at 07:00 AM.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Many thanks for providing my first chuckle of the day. I think a slightly more rock arrangement of “Sweet Nothings” might have worked better. It would have been in keeping with the vibe of “Mirror Mirror. As it is, it comes across as being pretty tepid.
    Regarding her solo version of “Endless Love”, i am in complete and utter agreement.
    Totalling Diana’s entire recording career, there are only three songs i am unable to sit through. In order they are, Number 1 “Ave Maria”. 2. “Girls”. 3. Solo “Endless Love”.
    Not bad when you consider she’s been recording for sixty years.
    That's not at all bad Ollie. Sadly i have a few more on my list that i am unable to listen to.
    I am me, Fool for your love, old funky rolls and a couple from I love you. Your choices are also on my list.
    Only too happy to give you a chuckle in these dark dismal times! Have a good day.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    I have never heard the solo Endless Love in its entirety. I just couldn’t.

    I am also a fan of Brenda Lee. Out of Brenda’s great catalogue, she picks Sweet Nothings? Good gracious .....
    I am also a fan of Brenda, and i also found it incredible she would choose Sweet Nothings when you consider what a fine catalogue of gems she had to choose from.
    Maybe it held some personal significance for her. There is no other logical explanation.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    That's not at all bad Ollie. Sadly i have a few more on my list that i am unable to listen to.
    I am me, Fool for your love, old funky rolls and a couple from I love you. Your choices are also on my list.
    Only too happy to give you a chuckle in these dark dismal times! Have a good day.
    I remembered “Fool For Your Love” only after posting.
    Old Funky is a strange one. Was it not released as a single?. I have a memory of hearing it played on the radio around that time. Probably Tony Blackburn. As a one off i don’t really mind it. Perhaps the plan was to show just how versatile Diana can be. Her acting skills are such that she does create a fun atmosphere on the song. It might have found a place on the Last Time I Saw Him album.... Then again, perhaps not lol.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post

    I am also a fan of Brenda Lee. Out of Brenda’s great catalogue, she picks Sweet Nothings? Good gracious .....
    I’m not overly familiar with the Brenda Lee back catalogue as it’s not really my kind of music. I quite like Peggy Lee. Which of M’s Lee’s songs do you think would have been a better fit for the Why Do Fools album?.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I remembered “Fool For Your Love” only after posting.
    Old Funky is a strange one. Was it not released as a single?. I have a memory of hearing it played on the radio around that time. Probably Tony Blackburn. As a one off i don’t really mind it. Perhaps the plan was to show just how versatile Diana can be. Her acting skills are such that she does create a fun atmosphere on the song. It might have found a place on the Last Time I Saw Him album.... Then again, perhaps not lol.
    It was released as a single in the UK around the time she left Motown, but thankfully failed to chart.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I’m not overly familiar with the Brenda Lee back catalogue as it’s not really my kind of music. I quite like Peggy Lee. Which of M’s Lee’s songs do you think would have been a better fit for the Why Do Fools album?.
    Ollie try these:

    break it to me gently
    too many rivers
    I’m sorry
    fool number one

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    That's not at all bad Ollie. Sadly i have a few more on my list that i am unable to listen to.
    I am me, Fool for your love, old funky rolls and a couple from I love you. Your choices are also on my list.
    Only too happy to give you a chuckle in these dark dismal times! Have a good day.
    haha i like old funky rolls too! while it's not a career highlight i do think it's fun and light.

    but the solo Endless Love is ghastly

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Many thanks for providing my first chuckle of the day. I think a slightly more rock arrangement of “Sweet Nothings” might have worked better. It would have been in keeping with the vibe of “Mirror Mirror. As it is, it comes across as being pretty tepid.
    Regarding her solo version of “Endless Love”, i am in complete and utter agreement.
    Totalling Diana’s entire recording career, there are only three songs i am unable to sit through. In order they are, Number 1 “Ave Maria”. 2. “Girls”. 3. Solo “Endless Love”.
    Not bad when you consider she’s been recording for sixty years.
    lolol i like Girls too! again not a masterpiece. but it's fun. and imagine an 80s era video for it! yes it could have been better with someone besides Ross producing. but I'll take it, I Am Me and Funky Rolls over much of the EA album. or many of the WO tracks

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    I'm surprised to hear Ross fans are turned off by her solo interpretation, what is it about the solo that makes it so unbearable??



    Is it because its so perfect as a duet?

    Also right off .... does ENDLESS LOVE as a solo seem a bit tooo endless?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    Ollie try these:

    break it to me gently
    too many rivers
    I’m sorry
    fool number one
    good stuff !




    Love her twangy country hits of the seventies too:


  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    I'm surprised to hear Ross fans are turned off by her solo interpretation, what is it about the solo that makes it so unbearable??



    Is it because its so perfect as a duet?

    Also right off .... does ENDLESS LOVE as a solo seem a bit tooo endless?
    i think it's a few reasons:

    1. the original is perfect
    2. she sounds really strained on it
    3. the backing track just isn't nearly as pretty as original.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    Keep Sweet Nothings? Oh hell no! It's truly awful and in my all time bottom 5 of Ross songs. Sadly she liked it. She is a big fan of Brenda Lee and i think it would have been included even if Quincy had been at the helm. I like most of your other ideas for the album. Work that body could have worked had it been given a more sexy and funky approach. Even Two can make it and it's never too late could have turned out well had better production and arranging been utilised, but the solo Endless Love should not have made the cut. Singing it solo on stage is one thing, but she should have left the studio version at the front door and closed it firmly in it's face.
    Lol. We all have such differences about Ross likes/dislikes. I like this about SDF!

    I was underwhelmed with Ross' Sweet Nothings. Maybe more disappointed. I think it's probably a sentimental favorite for her. It was a hit in 1959 for Brenda Lee, the same year as the Drifters' There Goes My Baby. Diana has always spoken fondly of those teen-age street-corner singing doo wop days. WDFFIL and Mr. Lee are from around the same time.
    I didn't know she was a big fan of Brenda Lee. Good taste! I do recall reading in Lee's autobiography that when she was on a 60's television program that included the Supremes, Diana was more aloof or reserved than the other girls. But Lee went on to comment that Ross must have noticed or known because she covered Sweet Nothings years later.

    I think Sweet Nothings is in the same fun vein as WDFFIL and Old Funky Rolls [[which I rather like). It could have been punchier, though.

    Brenda Lee songs I love and would have liked to hear Diana Ross interpret would be I Want To Be Wanted, Break It To Me Gently and I'm Sorry. Too Many Rivers would be an ironic contrast to Ain't No Mountain High Enough. It also would have been fun to hear Ross or the [[original, classic, DMF) Supremes sing Rockin' Around The Christmas Tree, one of my favorite Christmas holiday songs.

    I'm okay with Endless Love solo and Work That Body. I think I've played I Am Me and Girls maybe once or twice ever, which may mean I'm not a fan of Diana Ross' songwriting skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i think it's a few reasons:

    1. the original is perfect
    2. she sounds really strained on it
    3. the backing track just isn't nearly as pretty as original.
    Got it! And I'll still add as a 4. - the track has a bit of endlessness about it...

    Btw, listening to it I hear a couple of odd spots. At 1:38 mid-word Diana's voice drops, [["begun" becomes begu-un) , which to me suggests that's a point of a tape edit between two takes,

    then at 3:14 she vocalizes a sound that is a non-word [[ or, what is the word? ) "chi-your" ?


    ????
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 10-03-2020 at 08:05 PM.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    Ollie try these:

    break it to me gently
    too many rivers
    I’m sorry
    fool number one
    I don’t think any of these songs really suit Diana’s vocal style Circa. I can kind of see why she went with “Sweet Nothings”. The arrangement just needed a little more oomph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post




    Got it! And I'll still add as a 4. - the track has a bit of endlessness about it...

    Btw, listening to it I hear a couple of odd spots. At 1:38 mid-word Diana's voice drops, [["begun" becomes begu-un) , which to me suggests that's a point of a tape edit between two takes,

    then at 3:14 she vocalizes a sound that is a non-word [[ or, what is the word? ) "chi-your" ?


    ????
    Interesting. My reasons are as follows.

    1.The background music belongs in an elevator. It really is just awful.
    2. Her voice is so strained it becomes uncomfortable to listen to.
    3. A couple of times she sounds flat or slightly off key.
    By contrast, Her vocals on the duet are crisp and engaging. Bottom line is she really needed a good producer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Interesting. My reasons are as follows.

    1.The background music belongs in an elevator. It really is just awful.
    2. Her voice is so strained it becomes uncomfortable to listen to.
    3. A couple of times she sounds flat or slightly off key.
    By contrast, Her vocals on the duet are crisp and engaging. Bottom line is she really needed a good producer.
    Totally agree on all counts Ollie. Quincy could possibly salvaged something from this ship wreck, but without the guidance of an experienced producer she was literally all at sea, but at least it is consistent in quality with the rest of the album.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Interesting. My reasons are as follows.

    1.The background music belongs in an elevator. It really is just awful.
    2. Her voice is so strained it becomes uncomfortable to listen to.
    3. A couple of times she sounds flat or slightly off key.
    By contrast, Her vocals on the duet are crisp and engaging. Bottom line is she really needed a good producer.
    hahaha - love the elevator comment! yes!

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    ... interesting that both Michael and Diana had songs centered around checking themselves out in the mirror, [[did anybody else?) not sure what that suggests .... [[ cue in Marv , sigh).....

    MIRROR MIRROR was a good choice imo for Diana to make it clear she was now no longer a sound of Motown artist , save for maybe Rick James. It's too loud [[harsh) with too much of Sembello's guitar for my tastes, but I think the lyrics are what leave me even colder, vague but not in a clever way , this hard-ass adult sound paired with these childish storybook lyrics, for me is a mix that makes for a disjointed concept.
    Written by Michael Sembello , would be interested if there's a story there [[again, Marv? , sigh) given he's a bit of a flash [[dance) in the pan, this song, MANIAC, and then curiously enough, a song for Michael Jackson....

    Did Diana meet this manly hunk through Stevie?

    Now, before someone accuses me of looking for a story where there is none, would we agree that this was a >heck of an odd choice< of a song by Diana to perform in Central Park:



    Impressive well-rehearsed choreography [[The budget perhaps allowing for the one dancer?)
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 10-04-2020 at 04:53 PM.

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    Maniac was one of those “songs of the Summer”. It was written by Michael Sembello who also wrote her hit song “Mirror Mirror”. I’m assuming that’s why she sang them back to back. That “dancer” with her is world renowned choreographer Michael Peters who was the hottest choreographer around thanks to MJ and his video for “Beat it” which was another popular song that year- and another song Diana partially sang at this concert.

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    Yes on all that khansperac. That lone "dancer" certainly was choreographer Michael Peters . Having him on stage with her for five minutes , that likely busted the show's choreography budget lol!
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 10-06-2020 at 02:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    Yes on all that khansperac. That lone "dancer" certainly was choreographer Michael Peters . Having him on stage with her for five minutes , that likely busted the show's choreography budget lol!

    And to make it even all the more curious ----- Michael Sembello is actually performing at that concert.
    She performs his huge hit of the summer , he's right there, yet she doesn't have him come out to share a little spotlight concerning his own song. Sort of a slap in the face of a complement , "I'm gonna sing your song! ....come play on it .... in the background"
    ....not sure what she was hiding [[not revealing) [[??) [[ marv ....? sigh )

    ....oh .....mirror mirror on the wall.... tell me, tell me!!!
    I gather you haven't seen the Central Park concert in its entirety. The show opened with a youthful dance troupe from which Diana emerged. A bit later, a young boy and girl danced during her performance of HOME. Still later, she danced with a group of dancers costumed as various animals as she performed her current single PIECES OF ICE.

    Re the covers, I was actually surprised that Diana was doing some outside material in concert as she really hadn't done so in quite a while. Besides MANIAC, she also performed BEAT IT, RIBBON IN THE SKY, and FAMILY [[from DREAMGIRLS). All of these were recent and the latter was a real surprise as it was known that Diana wasn't too fond of DREAMGIRLS. She sang all of these in concert when I saw her a few weeks later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Bottom line is she really needed a good producer.
    A tip-top producer is the key to any great song.

    Today, I was in a restaurant, and Cher’s If I Could Turn Back Time came on. That was one hell of a produced song. The entire song, from first note to last note, was perfect! Cher sounded awesome as did everything else. Give it a listen.

    Ross is a sh*t producer. And, it shows in her music. Sad......
    Last edited by Circa 1824; 10-04-2020 at 08:15 PM.

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    And whoever doth speak a word against Diana Ross shall be cast into the fiery furnace to remain unforgiven in this age and the age to come. The testament of truth shall finally be revealed.
    Bottom line being, any Ross fans who consider her less then perfect better watch out.
    I have to thank you. This brought such a great smile to my face just now and a nice laugh. I love the Bible and maybe that's why it hit me just right! Absolutely love it! Should be canonized in The Book of Ross!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    I have to thank you. This brought such a great smile to my face just now and a nice laugh. I love the Bible and maybe that's why it hit me just right! Absolutely love it! Should be canonized in The Book of Ross!
    Your more then welcome. Sometimes i think it all gets just a little tooo serious. The fact that most of us are able to step back and see the funny side of things is a reason the forum has been a much happier place of late.

    p.s I was raised a good catholic boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    A tip-top producer is the key to any great song.

    Today, I was in a restaurant, and Cher’s If I Could Turn Back Time came on. That was one hell of a produced song. The entire song, from first note to last note, was perfect! Cher sounded awesome as did everything else. Give it a listen
    I like Cher Circa, but am not a massive fan. I love the sentiments of IICTBT and consider it one of her very best.. I took a listen and yes, the production is clean and crisp.
    I think the remix of Diana’s Until We Meet Again” could have been done for her what “Believe” did for Cher.

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    After considering the comments here, I reread several reviews from the New York papers at the time of the album's release. None was overly enthusiastic, to say the least, and while some songs [[Endless Love and the various oldies) were mentioned, there was no description of what was good or bad about them. The most memorable thing in any of the reviews was The New York Times' very quick summary of Diana's career to date, mentioning the Motown years and the "Billy Holiday" period. Yes, folks, the Times' actually spelled Billy that way. I'm sure I noticed the spelling when I read the review for the first time, back in the day, and thought to myself then that the mistake took some of the luster off the Times' reputation, and the album took some of the luster off of Diana's can-do-no-wrong overall reputation, as far as I was concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    A tip-top producer is the key to any great song.

    Ross is a sh*t producer. And, it shows in her music. Sad......
    Funny isn't it. For almost all of her career, particularly the early years, Ross is considered the ultimate professional in terms of her preparation and performance.

    Yet when she was finally in control of her career at RCA, the word I would use to describe her is 'lazy'.

    Was it 'Missing You' that wasn't really a finished track but Diana said 'it'll do' or words to that effect? Other tracks like 'Work That Body' never really seem finished to me either and the choice of a 'Why do Fools' cover as the lead single to launch her post-Motown career is the ultimate in laziness as far as I'm concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi Stubbs Tears View Post
    Funny isn't it. For almost all of her career, particularly the early years, Ross is considered the ultimate professional in terms of her preparation and performance.

    Yet when she was finally in control of her career at RCA, the word I would use to describe her is 'lazy'.

    Was it 'Missing You' that wasn't really a finished track but Diana said 'it'll do' or words to that effect? Other tracks like 'Work That Body' never really seem finished to me either and the choice of a 'Why do Fools' cover as the lead single to launch her post-Motown career is the ultimate in laziness as far as I'm concerned.
    Lionel said he also wanted to further perfect their duet of Endless Love. She refused. It was a great cut, but can you imagine how fine it might have been with a touch up or two?

    Lazy is a good word to describe Ross since her exit from Motown.

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    I don't know if she was lazy or if she had an unadapted reaction to her days under Gordy harsh guidance.
    "Missing you" is a splendid performance, and I don't think Ritchie is a better singer than Diana.
    Maybe he is in a technical way, but certainly not in connecting soul and voice to the lyrics of a tune. Diana out-sang him at the Oscar.
    I had the same feelings after I saw him sings with Streisand last year in London. He have a preserved voice, but he was bland, mechanical.

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    As has been discussed before, Diana was all about making money during this period. In fairness to her, it must have come as a huge shock when she discovered just how little she was worth upon leaving Motown. That of course is when she made the decision to learn more about the business side of things. Kudos to her for that as it made her a very rich woman.
    From a fans perspective, i would have loved to have seen a little more of that new found wealth and independence invested into releasing better quality music.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    As has been discussed before, Diana was all about making money during this period. In fairness to her, it must have come as a huge shock when she discovered just how little she was worth upon leaving Motown. That of course is when she made the decision to learn more about the business side of things. Kudos to her for that as it made her a very rich woman.
    From a fans perspective, i would have loved to have seen a little more of that new found wealth and independence invested into releasing better quality music.
    This assertion surprises me in the sense that I don’t know if being cheap with studio costs made her a richer woman.
    She sold less records, less concert seats, she loose RCA contract and she had a whole new generation passing in front of her. Back at Motown, the damages were done. So, I don’t think she was richer because of bad records.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albator View Post
    This assertion surprises me in the sense that I don’t know if being cheap with studio costs made her a richer woman.
    She sold less records, less concert seats, she loose RCA contract and she had a whole new generation passing in front of her. Back at Motown, the damages were done. So, I don’t think she was richer because of bad records.
    The fact being she must have saved a substantial amount by self producing her first two efforts for rca. That was the point I was making about investing in her music. Diana herself has that she enrolled in business classes to learn more about the financial side of the industry. Following this she went on to make some very shrewd investments and ultimately proved herself a talented business woman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    The fact being she must have saved a substantial amount by self producing her first two efforts for rca. That was the point I was making about investing in her music. Diana herself has that she enrolled in business classes to learn more about the financial side of the industry. Following this she went on to make some very shrewd investments and ultimately proved herself a talented business woman.
    Correct on all counts Ollie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Your more then welcome. Sometimes i think it all gets just a little tooo serious. The fact that most of us are able to step back and see the funny side of things is a reason the forum has been a much happier place of late.

    p.s I was raised a good catholic boy.
    I too have noticed what a much happier place this forum has been of late. I had a lengthy enforced absence, and i have spent some time looking through some of the posts i missed due to being incapacitated. I noticed there was one major drama involving Mary Wilson's involvement on the BBC History of Soul series.There was some fighting on that particular post, but other than a minor spat between two members over something so trivial i can barely recall it, the forum seems to have become a peaceful and respectful place to visit, and that can only be a positive thing. Long may it continue.

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    i think lazy is a bit harsh of a description. maybe frugal and preoccupied might be better

    i completely agree that in 81, she was focusing on money and as she rightly should have. typically in the professional world, your 30s are where you ramp up your career and earnings so that in your 40s and into your 50s, you're maximizing your salary. These are typically your highest earning years. It might continue into late 50s and into 60s. but some start to back down during those years. of course it all depends on the person and work

    but Diana is no different. in 81 she was 37 years old. i'm assuming she basically had no Social Security since Motown didn't withhold it. they weren't required to by law since the artists were earning Royalties and not a Salary. tax withholding differ by the source of your income. She had $100K in bank and maybe a bit more here and there. after 20 years of grueling work.

    she also had 3 young children and was very concerned about caring for them.

    now let's face it. if Diana was a 'normal' person and in 81 had $100K+ in the bank, she could have easily afforded a nice, normal house in a suburb, maybe gotten a job earning $40K a year and lived happily ever after.

    But Diana had no college education. What career path would she go into - music teaching? she had no teaching training or certificate, had not studied anything about vocal pedagogy. She really didn't have many options.

    Gene Simmons was a perfect influence at this time - get every penny you can today because in this business you never know what tomorrow will bring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i think lazy is a bit harsh of a description. maybe frugal and preoccupied might be better

    i completely agree that in 81, she was focusing on money and as she rightly should have. typically in the professional world, your 30s are where you ramp up your career and earnings so that in your 40s and into your 50s, you're maximizing your salary. These are typically your highest earning years. It might continue into late 50s and into 60s. but some start to back down during those years. of course it all depends on the person and work

    but Diana is no different. in 81 she was 37 years old. i'm assuming she basically had no Social Security since Motown didn't withhold it. they weren't required to by law since the artists were earning Royalties and not a Salary. tax withholding differ by the source of your income. She had $100K in bank and maybe a bit more here and there. after 20 years of grueling work.

    she also had 3 young children and was very concerned about caring for them.

    now let's face it. if Diana was a 'normal' person and in 81 had $100K+ in the bank, she could have easily afforded a nice, normal house in a suburb, maybe gotten a job earning $40K a year and lived happily ever after.

    But Diana had no college education. What career path would she go into - music teaching? she had no teaching training or certificate, had not studied anything about vocal pedagogy. She really didn't have many options.

    Gene Simmons was a perfect influence at this time - get every penny you can today because in this business you never know what tomorrow will bring.
    In Lear's magazine, Diana also mentioned that during this period, she actually had to go to a bank and borrow money to pay her taxes, something she thought had already been done.

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