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  1. #1
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    This is Why I Believe In You question

    TIWIBIY is credited to writers Michael B. Sutton and Pamela Sawyer. Towards the end of the song, there's without question a direct rip from the Isley Brothers "Shout".

    So shouldn't The I Bros. be given some sort of credit?

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    I don't think the Isleys would have had much of a case for claiming credit. The Supremes' record only repeats the line "You know you make me want to shout" and the melody line is not identical.

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    and the bass line is totally different, as is the instrumentation. So it's not a copywrite infringement, although the listen could certainly hear it and view it as a cheap knockoff.

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    The word is copyRIGHT, not copyWRITE. It's always interesting to me when I hear folks get that word wrong. The usual mistake is [[i.e.) "...the song was copywritten...", no the song was copyrighted. "Copy" refers to the work that was created, and "right" refers to ownership.

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    yes - thank you for the school lesson hehe

    now what do you think of the song?

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    I really like the song. I think that it was well written, well produced, and has a very nice arrangement. My favorite part of the song is at "...you do without knowing what keeps my mind blowing...". I also feel that it was real cool to give the song a gospel feel, especially how they "takin' it to Church" on the vamp, being that the title of the song is "This Is Why I Believe In You", very clever!

    I agree with you and Reese in that I don't think that there is any copyright infringement. A song having a lyrical phrase that contains that same words as a lyrical phrase of another song is not in and of itself enough to constitute a copyright infringement. If the music, the lyric and melody of a song is completely identical to another song for more than eight consecutive measures, that constitutes a copyright infringement according to copyright law. Other than that it's simply a matter of one song having something similar to something in another song.

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    i agree - by the mid 70s, that shout line was actually more of a catch phrase. You could probably argue that it had quickly settled into the public domain. And you're right, the way they use it simply nods to it rather than infringes on it

    as for the song, i like it. but if i was producer i would have done some things differently. As with He's My Man, i'm not sure Mary's vocals are the most appropriate. Her deeper voice feels heavy on what is supposed to be a super bouncy song. Scherrie should have done more of the lead but then some parts written for Mary's deep voice could have been fun. Let her drop a few notes all the way down in the cellar lolol. and give Cindy a shout out or two. with Scherrie anchoring the lead, both M and C could have had fun parts circling around that.

    and i don't know that the 2 tempos works as well here. The opening is actually a good tempo unto itself. but it just seems to become a bit too frenetic

  8. #8
    I never understood the intention of the song. I saw a clip of them singing it on American Bandstand. I just think it is a dreadful song. HOWEVER, I still love the Supremes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kpitt1204 View Post
    I never understood the intention of the song. I saw a clip of them singing it on American Bandstand. I just think it is a dreadful song. HOWEVER, I still love the Supremes.
    I think it might have worked better with scherrie handling more of the lead. the instrumental track is thick and heavy. there's a LOT going on. Mary's vocal is nice but her vocal tone doesn't cut though the gigantic orchestration like Scherrie's can. Listen to Love I Never Knew You Could Feel So Good from the MS&S album. or Driving Wheel or Let Yourself Go. those dance songs also have tons going on but they work because Scherrie's voice is not only extremely powerful but the tone and timbre of her voice cuts through the track. similarly to how Diana and Jean did.

    the "shout" revival ending is a bit much. had they just did the first section, perhaps the song would work better

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yes - thank you for the school lesson hehe

    now what do you think of the song?
    It's dreadful. How this pile of garbage ever made the final cut when several superior tracks were left in the can is almost as big a mystery as to how the even more dire Where is it i belong ever made the final cut. Other than that pair of clunkers the album was a pretty consistent effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    It's dreadful. How this pile of garbage ever made the final cut when several superior tracks were left in the can is almost as big a mystery as to how the even more dire Where is it i belong ever made the final cut. Other than that pair of clunkers the album was a pretty consistent effort.
    Lol. I remember buying the album [[because I bought everything Supremes in my youth) and being underwhelmed. When I heard Where Is It I Belong? and This Is Why I Believe In You, I gave up completely on the album. I can laugh about it now, but not then. Sorry to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    Lol. I remember buying the album [[because I bought everything Supremes in my youth) and being underwhelmed. When I heard Where Is It I Belong? and This Is Why I Believe In You, I gave up completely on the album. I can laugh about it now, but not then. Sorry to say.
    I felt your pain too!
    However if you were willing to overlook that pair of atrocities there were some really nice songs on there. Scherrie was in fine voice and it is a great pity she was not permitted to sing the lead on "early morning love" and the first verse on "He's my man". Mary's voice is perfect on the lovely "you turn me around", but was totally unsuitable for the other leads she took, but i still have a soft spot for that album all these years later.

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    good point about giving Scherrie the first verses. her voice was perfect for these big, bombastic dance tracks. i like M and C taking larger roles vocally but let Scherrie kick the song off so that you really grab the listener's ear. then M could do bits here and there and give C a line or two.

    frankly i still think most everything on Side 2 is far superior to everything on side 1. including HMM. odd that the second side is the strongest - usually they line up the tracks to feature A

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    I have to disagree about Mary following Scherrie. Now there is a case to be made for Scherrie doing the entire lead of some of these songs, but for my ears, for a song to start off with Scherrie's bombastic style and then segue into Mary's more laidback attack, it just wouldn't work.

    As for "This Is Why", I almost never allow this song to play. Mary is okay on it, but this would've worked so much better with Scherrie on the entire thing. I also think the track needed a ton more punching up. Even the album version sounds somewhat like a demo to me. Starting with JML, I really feel like the 70s lineups were wasted at Motown. Somewhere else in someone else's hands, all that talent might have been consistently used the right way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    I felt your pain too!
    However if you were willing to overlook that pair of atrocities there were some really nice songs on there. Scherrie was in fine voice and it is a great pity she was not permitted to sing the lead on "early morning love" and the first verse on "He's my man". Mary's voice is perfect on the lovely "you turn me around", but was totally unsuitable for the other leads she took, but i still have a soft spot for that album all these years later.
    I really liked It's All Been Said Before and was impressed with Scherrie's vocals. She should have started He's My Man. I agree with sup_fan that Side 2 is better than side 1. I like Color My World Blue and You Turn Me Around. I never again played the vinyl album, resisted buying the CD and I'm grateful that I can pick and choose with digital downloads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I have to disagree about Mary following Scherrie. Now there is a case to be made for Scherrie doing the entire lead of some of these songs, but for my ears, for a song to start off with Scherrie's bombastic style and then segue into Mary's more laidback attack, it just wouldn't work.

    As for "This Is Why", I almost never allow this song to play. Mary is okay on it, but this would've worked so much better with Scherrie on the entire thing. I also think the track needed a ton more punching up. Even the album version sounds somewhat like a demo to me. Starting with JML, I really feel like the 70s lineups were wasted at Motown. Somewhere else in someone else's hands, all that talent might have been consistently used the right way.
    i agree that S on verse 1 and M on verse 2 would have been quite disjointed. I'm not sure how the song's lyrics and structure would be altered to split things more. maybe rather than verses it would be more bouncing back and forth at times. too much so and the song goes all over the place and out of control. there needs to be some logic to it. It worked so beautifully on Ladder, even though those were just short lines for M and C. i think they could have more but not sure exactly what

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i agree that S on verse 1 and M on verse 2 would have been quite disjointed. I'm not sure how the song's lyrics and structure would be altered to split things more. maybe rather than verses it would be more bouncing back and forth at times. too much so and the song goes all over the place and out of control. there needs to be some logic to it. It worked so beautifully on Ladder, even though those were just short lines for M and C. i think they could have more but not sure exactly what
    I think the duet idea altogether is not a very good one. All the ingredients had to be right in order for it to work. I think "You're What's Missing" is a good example of this. The pace of the song fit both Mary and Scherrie equally. Mary kicks her vocals up a notch more than usual without sounding like she's singing out of her range, while Scherrie is a bit more laidback than usual but still has plenty of punch to her approach. It's one of my favorite cuts of the Scherrie years.

    But because Mary and Scherrie have such different voices, I think the producers figured that made for a good duet- the contrast- when in fact, because their styles were so different there just seemed to be something off. I know you and others question the potential of "He's My Man" and feel it should've been a Scherrie cut, but this is a bit different to me. They really aren't trading verses in as much as Mary handles most of the verses and Scherrie does the chorus, which is really where the song kicks up and most needs a voice like Scherrie's. Those verses are sort of mellow and work with Mary, IMO.

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    I see the problem with HMM as a complete disconnect between the track and the [[primary) lead vocalist. as you said, M and S really don't duet because Mary does all of the verses. the group is mostly singing together on the choruses, although scherrie is slightly pulled forward with the melody line. and then Scherrie wraps it up and does all the ad libs and pyrotechnics at the end.

    the problem is when you put the needle down at the beginning of the song, the track just EXPLODES! the opening just blares out of the speakers and hits you. the musical sound of HMM is incredible. i think the lyrics are a little too silly but not totally terrible.

    So the song kicks off with this incredible opening and Scherrie doing some lovely ad libs. Then the group is there and powerful and in 3 part harmony! the guitar licks are kicking it up too. you have a full 20 seconds of this explosion

    and then along comes Mr Sandman to lull you to sleep. deep dark misty sleepy vocals. and the backing track also drops considerably. it's a jarring transition

    Then you get back to the chorus and it's full power again.

    I get that a song needs peaks and valleys. but these are too wide here.

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    People are so hard on Mary's leads. As a kid I couldn't have told you Mary from Jean from Scherrie, to be 100% frank. Today I can, but they were all great IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    I see the problem with HMM as a complete disconnect between the track and the [[primary) lead vocalist. as you said, M and S really don't duet because Mary does all of the verses. the group is mostly singing together on the choruses, although scherrie is slightly pulled forward with the melody line. and then Scherrie wraps it up and does all the ad libs and pyrotechnics at the end.

    the problem is when you put the needle down at the beginning of the song, the track just EXPLODES! the opening just blares out of the speakers and hits you. the musical sound of HMM is incredible. i think the lyrics are a little too silly but not totally terrible.

    So the song kicks off with this incredible opening and Scherrie doing some lovely ad libs. Then the group is there and powerful and in 3 part harmony! the guitar licks are kicking it up too. you have a full 20 seconds of this explosion

    and then along comes Mr Sandman to lull you to sleep. deep dark misty sleepy vocals. and the backing track also drops considerably. it's a jarring transition

    Then you get back to the chorus and it's full power again.

    I get that a song needs peaks and valleys. but these are too wide here.
    Great description there Sup Fan. I totally agree with what you say about HMM. It starts off so well and then Mary's lacklustre vocals undo all the good work. Whoever decided Mary's voice was a better fit than Scherrie's needed a swift kick up the backside. They really did not know what they were doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    Great description there Sup Fan. I totally agree with what you say about HMM. It starts off so well and then Mary's lacklustre vocals undo all the good work. Whoever decided Mary's voice was a better fit than Scherrie's needed a swift kick up the backside. They really did not know what they were doing.
    I am glad someone else finally said this instead of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    I am glad someone else finally said this instead of me.
    Someone had to say it James. It's the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    I see the problem with HMM as a complete disconnect between the track and the [[primary) lead vocalist. as you said, M and S really don't duet because Mary does all of the verses. the group is mostly singing together on the choruses, although scherrie is slightly pulled forward with the melody line. and then Scherrie wraps it up and does all the ad libs and pyrotechnics at the end.

    the problem is when you put the needle down at the beginning of the song, the track just EXPLODES! the opening just blares out of the speakers and hits you. the musical sound of HMM is incredible. i think the lyrics are a little too silly but not totally terrible.

    So the song kicks off with this incredible opening and Scherrie doing some lovely ad libs. Then the group is there and powerful and in 3 part harmony! the guitar licks are kicking it up too. you have a full 20 seconds of this explosion

    and then along comes Mr Sandman to lull you to sleep. deep dark misty sleepy vocals. and the backing track also drops considerably. it's a jarring transition

    Then you get back to the chorus and it's full power again.

    I get that a song needs peaks and valleys. but these are too wide here.
    Yeah, I guess it's just all in the way we all hear things so different in any given song. I've never really listened to "He's My Man" and thought "yawn: Mary". To me it all just seems to work...as much as it can. I like the song, but wouldn't actually consider myself a fan of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Yeah, I guess it's just all in the way we all hear things so different in any given song. I've never really listened to "He's My Man" and thought "yawn: Mary". To me it all just seems to work...as much as it can. I like the song, but wouldn't actually consider myself a fan of it.
    yeah i'm not a big fan of it either. Even if Scherrie had sung it, it still probably wouldn't be my fav disco track of theirs. out of Sup 75, none of the disco tracks really excite me all that much. If i had to pick a fav, it would be I Can Never Recover.

    I don't really count Color My World Blue as disco. it's certainly among the fastest paced Ivey Woodford tunes but i don't include it with the 'disco" tracks from Sup 75.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah i'm not a big fan of it either. Even if Scherrie had sung it, it still probably wouldn't be my fav disco track of theirs. out of Sup 75, none of the disco tracks really excite me all that much. If i had to pick a fav, it would be I Can Never Recover.

    I don't really count Color My World Blue as disco. it's certainly among the fastest paced Ivey Woodford tunes but i don't include it with the 'disco" tracks from Sup 75.
    I'm a big fan of "Early Morning Love". I also love "Where Do I Go From Here". "I Can Never Recover" is also very good. They eventually grew on me, but I also love "Mr. Boogieman" and "Dance Fever", although this is not the direction I would have wanted to see the group go in. I'm with you on "Color My World Blue". I feel the same way about "Can't Stop A Girl". I think the group's reintroduction would've gone over far better if the disco stuff was ditched and the focus was on songs like "Can't Stop A Girl" and "You Turn Me Around".

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I'm a big fan of "Early Morning Love". I also love "Where Do I Go From Here". "I Can Never Recover" is also very good. They eventually grew on me, but I also love "Mr. Boogieman" and "Dance Fever", although this is not the direction I would have wanted to see the group go in. I'm with you on "Color My World Blue". I feel the same way about "Can't Stop A Girl". I think the group's reintroduction would've gone over far better if the disco stuff was ditched and the focus was on songs like "Can't Stop A Girl" and "You Turn Me Around".
    i agree. on all of the above. when we got the vaulted tracks from Sup 75, i kind of liked DF and Mr B. i'm on the fence about whether or not to include them. This Is Why is rather a mess and i'm not a fan of Early Morning Love or Where Is It I Belong. cut those two from the album. and the album was frankly kinda short. so several canned songs could have been included.

    my first choice is to have the entire [[or the vast, vast majority) to be handled by Ivey and Woodford. and include the Michael Lloyd songs.

    Can't stop a girl
    color my world blue
    sha la bandit
    you turn me around
    give out
    bend a little
    it's all been said
    shoop shoop

    Can We Love Again would fit nicely with the above list, although the chorus could use some finessing of lyrics. it's a bit repetitive.

    Plant the seed and Mr Boogie are [[sort of) funkier tracks. DF is kinda in that feeling too

    HMM, I can never recover, where do i go, early morning are more straight up disco.

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    I really love "Seed Of Love" and wish it could've made the album. It shows a bit of Scherrie's versatility, as she doesn't go all in, guns blazing. Very understated vocal, although she does start to cut loose toward the end, which I'm hoping we might someday get an extended ending.

    But I agree with you, Supremes 75 should have been a pop/R&b album. Leave the disco stuff to other folks.

    Oh, I would never have put "Shoop" on there, though. Yikes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I really love "Seed Of Love" and wish it could've made the album. It shows a bit of Scherrie's versatility, as she doesn't go all in, guns blazing. Very understated vocal, although she does start to cut loose toward the end, which I'm hoping we might someday get an extended ending.

    But I agree with you, Supremes 75 should have been a pop/R&b album. Leave the disco stuff to other folks.

    Oh, I would never have put "Shoop" on there, though. Yikes!
    yeah shoop isn't my favorite but it does fit in stylistically with the other pop tracks and it's not a terrible cover. the group had certainly done worse previously. but if there had been another strong pop track, i'd have used it. I don't know that dropping a fast paced disco track would have worked - been too out of place IMO

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    Do you think "Shoop" was covered as kind of a "throwback" in the same vein as "Sha-la Bandit"? That one has always felt very poodle skirts to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Do you think "Shoop" was covered as kind of a "throwback" in the same vein as "Sha-la Bandit"? That one has always felt very poodle skirts to me.
    I'm glad it didn't make the final cut. It's hardly a bad
    version, but it's nothing special either.

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    American Graffiti and Happy Days were big cultural influences at the time. in the mid 70s there was a bit of a nostalgia trip back to the 50s. so doing the Shoop song sort of could be a nod to that.

    Sha La Bandit was also recorded at this time by Aretha Franklin and appeared on the You album in late 75. perhaps that had some influence as to why NOT to include it on the Sup album. yes Sup 75 preceded Aretha's but only by a couple months. maybe i'm speculating too much.

    But yes, Sha La also has a throwback vibe to it. And perhaps they cut both of these songs because they didn't want throwback with the Supremes, especially with a sort of "comeback" album

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    I'm glad it didn't make the final cut. It's hardly a bad
    version, but it's nothing special either.
    i'd have voted to include Shoop as opposed to Where Is It I Belong lolol

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    Good God, Sup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Good God, Sup.
    lol now what bobby? lol would you still use Where over Shoop?

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    I'd pick My Girl Bill over Shoop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i'd have voted to include Shoop as opposed to Where Is It I Belong lolol
    Anything but anything would be better than Where is it i belong. It's the dullest, dreariest song ever recorded by the Supremes.

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    Even with the lyric "He was Capricorn and a love was born?" Sheer genius IMO. Right up there with Socrates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Even with the lyric "He was Capricorn and a love was born?" Sheer genius IMO. Right up there with Socrates.
    LOLOLOLOLOL

    yeah i think just the sound of dead air on the album [[with those wonderful little pops and static because of vinyl) would be preferred to that shit show of Where Is it I belong

    I can think of a few places that song belongs

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    Yes, I agree, it got too screechy at the end. I thought it ruined a really great song. I liked all parts of it until the end free for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    American Graffiti and Happy Days were big cultural influences at the time. in the mid 70s there was a bit of a nostalgia trip back to the 50s. so doing the Shoop song sort of could be a nod to that.

    Sha La Bandit was also recorded at this time by Aretha Franklin and appeared on the You album in late 75. perhaps that had some influence as to why NOT to include it on the Sup album. yes Sup 75 preceded Aretha's but only by a couple months. maybe i'm speculating too much.

    But yes, Sha La also has a throwback vibe to it. And perhaps they cut both of these songs because they didn't want throwback with the Supremes, especially with a sort of "comeback" album
    Linda Lewis had a disco "hit" with "It's In His Kiss" in July 1975, which also was a couple of months after "The Supremes" was released in May 1975.

    I think I bought Linda Lewis' record but now that I hear it I wonder why! I did love the original 1964 hit by Betty Everett. Not a fan of The Supremes' Shoop or Sha La.

    Here's Linda Lewis:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQF1...rt_radio=1&t=0

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Even with the lyric "He was Capricorn and a love was born?" Sheer genius IMO. Right up there with Socrates.
    Ha ha ha. It should have been nominated for an Ivor Novello award!

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnjeb View Post
    Linda Lewis had a disco "hit" with "It's In His Kiss" in July 1975, which also was a couple of months after "The Supremes" was released in May 1975.

    I think I bought Linda Lewis' record but now that I hear it I wonder why! I did love the original 1964 hit by Betty Everett. Not a fan of The Supremes' Shoop or Sha La.

    Here's Linda Lewis:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQF1...rt_radio=1&t=0
    I thought Linda's version was pretty good. It's brilliantly produced and doesn't just retread the original version. I bought the single back in the day and i still think it is the best version. Her vocals are superb. Different strokes i guess.

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    Didn't Cher do a version of It's In His Kiss? I could swear she did even though I try to purge all memories of her from my mind so as not to lose brain cells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Didn't Cher do a version of It's In His Kiss? I could swear she did even though I try to purge all memories of her from my mind so as not to lose brain cells.
    Yes, Cher did do a version of It's in His Kiss from her movie, Mermaids.

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    Thanks, Jim!

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    I bought the Ramona King version of "It's In His Kiss" in preference to the the Betty Everett version which came out a week later, and there's not a trace of a shoop shoop on it. Apparently the original version is by Merry Clayton though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Didn't Cher do a version of It's In His Kiss? I could swear she did even though I try to purge all memories of her from my mind so as not to lose brain cells.
    Cher's version made it all the way to no.1 in the UK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    Cher's version made it all the way to no.1 in the UK.
    I remember it well back in the 80s. it was popular but only made 33 on Billboard here in the states

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    Yeah I wouldn't have ever heard that song had it not been on MTV. I don't think I ever heard it on the radio.

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