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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    It is Diana who blocked it's inclusion on the Eaten Alive expanded edition and indeed the original 1985 release.. She also blocked the inclusion of a great song called It's up to you. Barbra Streisand decided she loved the song and Barry produced it on her for the Guilty2 album. Barry was mystified by some of Diana's decisions.
    As regards Islands in the stream Barry envisiged it as a duet between him and Diana. Kenny was not involved until Diana turned down the song. You need to listen to the Kenny Rogers album in full. Nearly all those songs were sent to Diana first. She ignored his calls.
    Many thanks for the info Blue.. I really find that all rather sad. Surely she must be aware that the vast majority of her loyal fans are chomping at the bit to hear anything new.
    To block the songs being released at all is surely a ridiculous move, if perhaps a ‘tad selfish. It really makes no sense at all. It was the same with the Christmas compilation from last year. Is it all to do with financial recompense?.
    To the joy of her fans, Streisand has been releasing whole albums of songs left over from various recording sessions. It makes sense. I love “It’s Up To You” plus most of the songs featured on guilty2 My favourite being “So Hard Letting Go”
    Have you any idea her feelings on the superb expanded releases.?. Would she prefer these also were never released?.

  2. #52
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    Thanks bluebrock.
    Glad you are back as well

  3. #53
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    Ran.
    I disagree.
    Ross was off the charts for half of 1974 and almost all of 1975.
    Off the charts for way to long but typical Motown to give us everything one minute than nothing at all
    That's why my vote was to release Blue in 1975. Not excuse for this album to sit in the vaults for thirty years.
    In my opinion BG was losing his touch

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Many thanks for the info Blue.. I really find that all rather sad. Surely she must be aware that the vast majority of her loyal fans are chomping at the bit to hear anything new.
    To block the songs being released at all is surely a ridiculous move, if perhaps a ‘tad selfish. It really makes no sense at all. It was the same with the Christmas compilation from last year. Is it all to do with financial recompense?.
    To the joy of her fans, Streisand has been releasing whole albums of songs left over from various recording sessions. It makes sense. I love “It’s Up To You” plus most of the songs featured on guilty2 My favourite being “So Hard Letting Go”
    Have you any idea her feelings on the superb expanded releases.?. Would she prefer these also were never released?.
    Barbra has a vast knowledge of her own music and retains total control of it. Diana has a very poor knowledge of her own music. I could really astound you regarding this, but i see no advantage in doing this. I will merely say her career plays a very poor second to her personal life, and i guess that is the way it should be.
    As regards her opinion of the wonderful expanded editions i think there is someone on here with a far greater knowledge of that than me. When i did get a rare opportunity to seek her opinion of the expanded Where did our love go set she said something along the lines of "that is nice for you and the fans" but did not offer her own opinion. The fact that she shows little interest in contributing to the wonderfully detailed inner booklets so lovingly put together by dedicated fans tells it's own story. I don't want to say too much else at the moment. I know that doesn't answer your question, but i feel unable to add anything further. Maybe a good friend of mine on this forum may or may not wish to offer his own comments.

  5. #55
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    As hard as BG worked her ..maybe she had her fill of it.. not sure .none of us live her life and have had to make the choices or sacrifices she has made.
    But I would think she be interested in her own work..
    Will have to check out kenny rogers album. I used to have the album.
    Not sure but I don't think diana sees herself the way the fans see or hear her.
    Not sure how she picks songs but based on her RCA choices .....not always the best

  6. #56
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    I think ...even on Ross...83....a few song switched out could of made the difference...
    Same made have been the case if Eaten alive

  7. #57
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    Most, but not all fans think her working with Barry Gibb was a mistake. Often cited as one of her worst albums. Maybe after reflection she feels the same way. So I don’t understand why some want to hear unreleased tracks. Or think she made a mistake not working with him again. We have another thread “sorry doesn’t always make it right” talking about what a dismal failure “country” Diana is, maybe she didn’t want to do country again with “Islands in the stream”.

  8. #58
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    I get your point but for me the expanded editions is to document the history of Motown or Ross. In some cases ...for example...last time I saw him...hated the original album until the expanded edition.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Most, but not all fans think her working with Barry Gibb was a mistake. Often cited as one of her worst albums. Maybe after reflection she feels the same way. So I don’t understand why some want to hear unreleased tracks. Or think she made a mistake not working with him again. We have another thread “sorry doesn’t always make it right” talking about what a dismal failure “country” Diana is, maybe she didn’t want to do country again with “Islands in the stream”.
    Chain Reaction was a great song and a real great video and was a huge hit for Miss Ross all over the world buy not the USA.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I checked out Kenny’s “Eyes That See In The Dark” and it’s a really nice song. I wonder why it was not included on the EA album?.
    Was it Diana herself that blocked any unreleased songs being used on the expanded RCA albums Bluebrock?. If so it’s hard to understand why.
    Regarding “Islands In The Stream”, a duet featuring Kenny as opposed to Baz would have been a much better idea . While his voice worked well with Babs, being so nasal it’s not such a great match up for Diana. Having said that the more sedate “Experience” might have benefitted from being a duet. It’s a shame Diana was not interested in recording any for the project.
    Islands In The Stream as a Diana Ross/Kenny Rogers duet I think would have been a great idea and a huge hit. In the early 80's, both were reigning superstars in Pop as well as in their respective R&B/Country genres. And Barry Gibb was still the reigning superstar producer/writer, just a couple of years off the mega-hit Barbra Streisand Guilty album. [[Rogers, I agree, would have been a better vocal partner for Ross than the nasal Gibb.)

    I read on Wikipedia [[I know, lol) that the song was "originally written for Marvin Gaye, in an R&B style." What of that?!

    I'm gonna have to check out Kenny Rogers Eyes That See In The Dark album. Interesting that Islands isn't included in the digital album due to licensing [[again according to Wikipedia).

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    I get your point but for me the expanded editions is to document the history of Motown or Ross. In some cases ...for example...last time I saw him...hated the original album until the expanded edition.
    Spot on david. I really can’t imagine any real fan not wanting to hear unreleased songs that might be lurking in the vaults. The expanded editions provide an excellent opportunity to discover hidden gems. Long may they continue.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    Chain Reaction was a great song and a real great video and was a huge hit for Miss Ross all over the world buy not the USA.
    Absolutely Roberta. No matter what ones opinion might be of the of the album,
    Chain Reaction” was instrumental in helping resurrect Diana’s popularity across the globe. Thirty four years later and the promotional video still stands as one of her very best.
    The song managed to achieve the status of becoming a hit twice over in the UK and remains one of her most popular songs.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    Islands In The Stream as a Diana Ross/Kenny Rogers duet I think would have been a great idea and a huge hit. In the early 80's, both were reigning superstars in Pop as well as in their respective R&B/Country genres. And Barry Gibb was still the reigning superstar producer/writer, just a couple of years off the mega-hit Barbra Streisand Guilty album. [[Rogers, I agree, would have been a better vocal partner for Ross than the nasal Gibb.)

    I read on Wikipedia [[I know, lol) that the song was "originally written for Marvin Gaye, in an R&B style." What of that?!

    I'm gonna have to check out Kenny Rogers Eyes That See In The Dark album. Interesting that Islands isn't included in the digital album due to licensing [[again according to Wikipedia).
    I must admit to having been extremely surprised when I read about Marvin’s association with the song lucky. “Chain Reaction and Marvin Gaye hmmm. I’m just not hearing it lol. B.G collaborating with Marvin on something might have proved rather interesting. Perhaps a duet album to include Streisand.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    Barbra has a vast knowledge of her own music and retains total control of it. Diana has a very poor knowledge of her own music. I could really astound you regarding this, but i see no advantage in doing this. I will merely say her career plays a very poor second to her personal life, and i guess that is the way it should be.
    As regards her opinion of the wonderful expanded editions i think there is someone on here with a far greater knowledge of that than me. When i did get a rare opportunity to seek her opinion of the expanded Where did our love go set she said something along the lines of "that is nice for you and the fans" but did not offer her own opinion. The fact that she shows little interest in contributing to the wonderfully detailed inner booklets so lovingly put together by dedicated fans tells it's own story. I don't want to say too much else at the moment. I know that doesn't answer your question, but i feel unable to add anything further. Maybe a good friend of mine on this forum may or may not wish to offer his own comments.
    In a way Bluebrock i am not totally surprised, so doubt I would be astounded lol.
    It’s sad that Diana demonstrates such little interest in the continuing expanded releases when they are testament to her musical legacy. You would think that fan appreciation would also offer at least a minuscule of inclination.
    With such little interest being shown, its quite surprising that she finds the time to ensure those unreleased RCA recordings remain just that. ‘Tis a strange one to be sure.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Absolutely Roberta. No matter what ones opinion might be of the of the album,
    Chain Reaction” was instrumental in helping resurrect Diana’s popularity across the globe. Thirty four years later and the promotional video still stands as one of her very best.
    The song managed to achieve the status of becoming a hit twice over in the UK and remains one of her most popular songs.
    I personally quite like the eaten alive album. The title track is a hot mess, but the rest of the album is of a decent standard. It's not a classic but i far prefer it to the likes of workin' overtime, Fools and Silk Electric.
    I may be biased because i am friends with Barry Gibb and i maintain he is a musical genius. There are few performers dead or alive who can match his achievements as a singer, songwriter and producer. His songs have been covered by literally 100's and 100's of artists. Not many can match that legacy.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    In a way Bluebrock i am not totally surprised, so doubt I would be astounded lol.
    It’s sad that Diana demonstrates such little interest in the continuing expanded releases when they are testament to her musical legacy. You would think that fan appreciation would also offer at least a minuscule of inclination.
    With such little interest being shown, its quite surprising that she finds the time to ensure those unreleased RCA recordings remain just that. ‘Tis a strange one to be sure.
    I gave up getting annoyed about it many years ago. We may only get to hear certain songs after she has passed. She did tell me many years ago that she would leave that decision with her children, and one of them in particular. Hopefully Evan will not be faced with that dilemma for many years to come.

  17. #67
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    To bad she would not give into a rca collection with out takes n bonus tracks.
    But I suppose we will have to wait.
    Damn.well all be old

  18. #68
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    Really like eyes that see in the dark. By kenny rogers..
    I can hear Diana singing this.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Okay Maniac, I never paid attention to the single version before. I gotta say I kind of see where you're coming from. I think had the track had more of a country/soul feel to it, it may have had a better chance. The track is just too country, although the pop feel is squeezing through. I just think a second country type single would've given folks the impression Ross is going Country and they would've laughed and passed, no matter how good the song was. Remix this track and I think it may have done something. Just my thoughts.
    interesting view - you are always good for a Unique axiom or comment. I’ve been working a lot in Ohio with my hubby to try to counter GOP voter suppression, so I’m not on here much. Has it made the national news that the GOP in Ohio is trying to limit the Drop-off ballot boxes in each county to one per county??????? Yes, ONE. Some counties have over 800,000 people in them, and currently, one drop off box. And I’m not trying to be political I’m not saying if it’s good or bad and that there’s only one ballot box for every 800,000 people, I’m just simply stating a fact.

    PS Where’s Marv2?

  20. #70
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    i think there are just people that don't focus on sentimentality. I myself have boxes and boxes of pictures, was always taking pics of friends in school, can remember all sorts of goofy stories and antics, enjoy reminiscing with and about friends and family

    I know some people though that have absolutely 0 recollection of anything they did, they seldom reflect back on old stories, have little to no saved memorabilia of their lives. They simply do not focus on it. it's not that they're oblivious to the past, just that taking time, money and energy to review and enjoy it is not something they want to do.

    It's just a matter of how people are wired. Like how some are good at math or whatever.

    while i would love to have Diana host a series of podcasts and youtube videos where she joyously goes album by album and event by event through her career, it ain't gonna happen. She also had the opportunity to write her bio and we saw what a hot mess that was.

  21. #71
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    Diana Ross is in noway nostalgic. As such, she refuses to allow previously unreleased material to be included on expanded rca editions. Sorry, but it does sound rather overly simplistic to me.
    I don’t know the process regarding her giving the green light for such unreleased material to be released, but surely it can’t be that complicated. It’s not as if she is even being asked to listen to the albums.
    Expanded albums are being released on various artists all the time, often with their full support and approval.
    Perhaps taking the time to do something special for the fans with no financial gain to be had is one kind deed to far.
    Last edited by Ollie9; 09-22-2020 at 04:01 AM.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    Islands In The Stream as a Diana Ross/Kenny Rogers duet I think would have been a great idea and a huge hit. In the early 80's, both were reigning superstars in Pop as well as in their respective R&B/Country genres. And Barry Gibb was still the reigning superstar producer/writer, just a couple of years off the mega-hit Barbra Streisand Guilty album. [[Rogers, I agree, would have been a better vocal partner for Ross than the nasal Gibb.)

    I read on Wikipedia [[I know, lol) that the song was "originally written for Marvin Gaye, in an R&B style." What of that?!

    I'm gonna have to check out Kenny Rogers Eyes That See In The Dark album. Interesting that Islands isn't included in the digital album due to licensing [[again according to Wikipedia).
    I'm not sure how true that one is!
    Barry told me well over 20 years ago that it was written as a proposed duet between him and Diana. He even played me the demo he sent to Diana which featured a very talented female session singer performing what eventually turned out to be Dolly Parton's contribution. It was a little more r&b orientated than the eventual released version, but i do not recall Barry ever mentioning Marvin in relation to this song.

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    "You're not the first person that has stated they find Together to be a dud. I actually sort of like it! lolol i seem to be in the minority on that one. Is it at the level of It's My Turn or To Love Again - definitely not. but it's peppy and a fun song and a nice change from the mega ballads Masser did with her..."
    _____________________________

    sup-fan, while Together sounds peppy to you, to me it sounds like an unimaginative, bad rewrite of Baby Love, with a bit of Love Child rolled in.

    In both Together and Baby Love, the first few lines of each verse are structured in the same short, staccato format, and while the number of syllables in the words vary, the melody is much the same.

    The last lines of each Together verse are roughly reminiscent of the descending parts of the "oooh" chorus following the "tenement slum" opening scene-setting declarative noun, before the lyrics begin to unfold, in Love Child.

    Together's intertwined melodies aren't precise copies, of course. Rather, they come across as late-at-night hummings [[or piano poundings) of songs the composer hasn't heard recently, songs that were earlier hits for the vocalist for whom he is trying to come up with something suitable, repeating phrases in a lazy way, fitting parts of them "together" -- and coming up, inadvertently, with a title for the mess/mosh/mesh.

    The end result is not so much "inspired by" the earlier songs but is a too familiar recreation of parts of them. The lyrics, too, sound like tired retreads.

    And Diana seems to have recognized that it had all been done before. Her voice is, technically, perfect from note to note, but her delivery is perfunctory, lacking the sincerity she brought to Baby Love and the anger and hope she brought to Love Child. There's no sense of immediacy or commitment by her, perhaps because she knows there was no commitment by the writer, who took a "little bit of this, little bit of that" approach hoping 4+4 would equal 10, but ended up with a 3 overall.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    I personally quite like the eaten alive album. The title track is a hot mess, but the rest of the album is of a decent standard. It's not a classic but i far prefer it to the likes of workin' overtime, Fools and Silk Electric.
    I may be biased because i am friends with Barry Gibb and i maintain he is a musical genius. There are few performers dead or alive who can match his achievements as a singer, songwriter and producer. His songs have been covered by literally 100's and 100's of artists. Not many can match that legacy.
    I guess I am the other one who loves the Eaten Alive album, Bluebrock, aside from the title track which is, to use your words, a hot mess. My only issue with it is I think the mix is a little muddy. But, there are some wonderful songs on there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thommg View Post
    I guess I am the other one who loves the Eaten Alive album, Bluebrock, aside from the title track which is, to use your words, a hot mess. My only issue with it is I think the mix is a little muddy. But, there are some wonderful songs on there.
    I also love the Eaten Alive album. One of my favorite albums of Diana Ross.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by benross View Post
    "You're not the first person that has stated they find Together to be a dud. I actually sort of like it! lolol i seem to be in the minority on that one. Is it at the level of It's My Turn or To Love Again - definitely not. but it's peppy and a fun song and a nice change from the mega ballads Masser did with her..."
    _____________________________

    sup-fan, while Together sounds peppy to you, to me it sounds like an unimaginative, bad rewrite of Baby Love, with a bit of Love Child rolled in.

    In both Together and Baby Love, the first few lines of each verse are structured in the same short, staccato format, and while the number of syllables in the words vary, the melody is much the same.

    The last lines of each Together verse are roughly reminiscent of the descending parts of the "oooh" chorus following the "tenement slum" opening scene-setting declarative noun, before the lyrics begin to unfold, in Love Child.

    Together's intertwined melodies aren't precise copies, of course. Rather, they come across as late-at-night hummings [[or piano poundings) of songs the composer hasn't heard recently, songs that were earlier hits for the vocalist for whom he is trying to come up with something suitable, repeating phrases in a lazy way, fitting parts of them "together" -- and coming up, inadvertently, with a title for the mess/mosh/mesh.

    The end result is not so much "inspired by" the earlier songs but is a too familiar recreation of parts of them. The lyrics, too, sound like tired retreads.

    And Diana seems to have recognized that it had all been done before. Her voice is, technically, perfect from note to note, but her delivery is perfunctory, lacking the sincerity she brought to Baby Love and the anger and hope she brought to Love Child. There's no sense of immediacy or commitment by her, perhaps because she knows there was no commitment by the writer, who took a "little bit of this, little bit of that" approach hoping 4+4 would equal 10, but ended up with a 3 overall.
    i think Together is a dud and crud. Simple lyrics that mean nothing, a sophomoric chorus melody and a perfunctory vocal makes this the worst Masser song ever for me. I never play it unless I don’t feel like programming it out. I’m shocked it ever got sequenced into any album. Maybe my least fave Motown solo recording.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by thommg View Post
    I guess I am the other one who loves the Eaten Alive album, Bluebrock, aside from the title track which is, to use your words, a hot mess. My only issue with it is I think the mix is a little muddy. But, there are some wonderful songs on there.
    Had the album been released anywhere between 81 and 83 i think it would done incredibly well.. The only thing it lacked was a killer ballad.
    A duet with M.J in the vein of “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You” would have been rather nice and help cement the albums success after the huge success of “CR”.
    For me, either “Experience” or “ I Love Being In Love” would have worked better as a duet. Probably with B.G. It certainly would have guaranteed more air play.

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    I love the Eaten Alive album too.

    Apart from the magnificent Chain Reaction which is loved by the UK public and easily her most recognised song here, the three track segment of [[I Love) Being In Love With You, Crime Of Passion [[which I am convinced would have been a huge hit as the follow-up to Reaction) and Don't Give Up On Each Other is simply divine.
    Last edited by florence; 09-22-2020 at 07:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by florence View Post
    I love the Eaten Alive album too.

    Apart from the magnificent Chain Reaction which is loved by the UK public and easily her most recognised song here, the three track segment of [[I Love) Being In Love With You, Crime Of Passion [[which I am convinced would have been a huge hit as the follow-up to Reaction) and Don't Give Up On Each Other is simply divine.
    Preach Florence Preach!
    I was furious that Crimes of Passion was not chosen as the follow up to Chain Reaction. It had smash hit written all over it .
    It must be a memorable song because even Diana herself said it was one of her favourite rca tracks, and she is normally utterly useless at recalling or discussing her own recordings!

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    I also loved Eaten alive minus the title cut.
    Omg.crimes of passion. How did that get over looked.
    Some gems.love more and more and I'm watching you.
    Strange...red hot n blue had one unreleased track. Wonder how or why that one got out

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    Quote Originally Posted by florence View Post
    I love the Eaten Alive album too.

    Apart from the magnificent Chain Reaction which is loved by the UK public and easily her most recognised song here, the three track segment of [[I Love) Being In Love With You, Crime Of Passion [[which I am convinced would have been a huge hit as the follow-up to Reaction) and Don't Give Up On Each Other is simply divine.

    It's quite good !! Loudly era appropriate. I hear a hit !! Had only Diana let the Bee Gees be heard on here in the same way Ashford and Simpson were on THE BOSS.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    It's quite good !! Loudly era appropriate. I hear a hit !! Had only Diana let the Bee Gees be heard on here in the same way Ashford and Simpson were on THE BOSS.




    A good song that certainly has more oomph then “Experience”. The problem for me is that i can hardly understand a word she is singing. Her vocals are incredibly muffled as much the same way on “Eaten Alive. This alone i think would have been enough to prevent it becoming a sizeable hit. On “Chain Reaction” you can understand every word she is singing.
    A remix to sharpen up the clarity of those vocals would make all the difference.

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    Diana had a modest hit with another country-flavored hit, "Last Time I Saw Him". I guess they were looking for lighting in a bottle for a second time and it never got there because Motown's promotional tactics on Diana were weird as hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Diana had a modest hit with another country-flavored hit, "Last Time I Saw Him". I guess they were looking for lighting in a bottle for a second time and it never got there because Motown's promotional tactics on Diana were weird as hell.
    i'd describe Last Time as a bit more than just a modest hit. It peaked at 14 on the pop charts which is higher than Remember Me, Reach out I'll be there, Reach out and touch, surrender. and was #1 Adult Contemporary. also it was on the pop charts for 14 weeks which is a good long run. Mountain was on the charts for only 13

    i think it would have charted higher had it not been for the duets. Last Time was released on 12/6 and entered the Hot 100 on 1/5. My Mistake was released in Jan too

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i'd describe Last Time as a bit more than just a modest hit. It peaked at 14 on the pop charts which is higher than Remember Me, Reach out I'll be there, Reach out and touch, surrender. and was #1 Adult Contemporary. also it was on the pop charts for 14 weeks which is a good long run. Mountain was on the charts for only 13

    i think it would have charted higher had it not been for the duets. Last Time was released on 12/6 and entered the Hot 100 on 1/5. My Mistake was released in Jan too
    Don't forget too that Last Time as with Reach Out And Touch and Remember Me went Top 10 on both Cashbox and Record World which were both compiled on sales only at that trime - it was airplay on pop stations which held it back.

    There seems to be no information on sales for Diana's RCA singles but of her Motown releases outside of her #1s [[all 1m or close to) Last Time and I'm Coming Out were supposedly her biggest sellers.

    Some here on the Board believe I'm Coming Out was a million seller but I can't see it.

    By 1980 Motown was a memeber of RIAA - they claimed awards for Upside Down, the diana album and Endless Love so if I'm Coming Out had shipped let alone sold 1m copies why would they not have claimed the award for it?

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    Do we have to wait until Berry passes to get the truth of who sold what???

    It's frustrating because we think when we see chart positions that they were "flops" but the way songs were released then seemed very different from now. Like some songs sold very well regionally as they did nationally. Surprised to read Last Time I Saw Him was supposedly a huge seller despite its chart positions.

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i'd describe Last Time as a bit more than just a modest hit. It peaked at 14 on the pop charts which is higher than Remember Me, Reach out I'll be there, Reach out and touch, surrender. and was #1 Adult Contemporary. also it was on the pop charts for 14 weeks which is a good long run. Mountain was on the charts for only 13

    i think it would have charted higher had it not been for the duets. Last Time was released on 12/6 and entered the Hot 100 on 1/5. My Mistake was released in Jan too
    I forget that most pop songs didn't stay on the charts for long periods of time. That wasn't until recently. And yes I'm aware it was number one on the Adult Contemporary charts so that might've done with its sales.

  38. #88
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    there are some old threads on here where Bayou provides wonderful insight around sales and chart rankings. I'll try and remember and paraphrase [[bayou - please jump in and correct! lolol)

    the sups were notorious for racing like a bat out of hell up the charts and then dropping immediately. the majority of their 60s hits averaged about 10 weeks of the Billboard charts. and most also dropped off rapidly after their peak.

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