Diana Ross needed the Supremes

[jim aka jtigre99]

Thinking it over, do you think Diana Ross could have hit the heights she did without the framework of the Supremes to launch her? She would have had success, she had a unique voice and was very exotic looking visually in the outfits that she wore but I think she developed them through the framework of the group. As Mary Wilson points out, the three of them had different personalities which gave the group a roundness-something for everyone. Diana learned from others and her groupmates to embellish upon her talents and when they went from hit makers to established stars with Cindy replacing Florence-she was the focal point but was still learning and growing so that when she left the group she had established confidence and an awareness of everything she could accomplish. I think had she started as a solo act, she would have garnered attention but the Supremes framework really helped launch her into a solo career. I don't think she would have been quite so big had she not been in the Supremes-it was like a college course that she used to learn and grow. To be honest, even Mary used it to learn and grow to become a solo artist from a background singer. Any opinions on this topic? And, no, this is not to disparage anyone's talent or to cause drama on here-just an observation. Even Diana told oprah, they were wonderful growth years.

[midnightman]

Diana admitted this a lot of times.

[sup_fan]

when Diana was starting out, she was 15 years old or so. she was new to singing and performing and most certainly benefited from the strength and talent of the group. this allowed her talents and abilities to grow and shine. without this structure, who knows what might have happened.

That's also part of the reason why the Flo problem was so stressful and challenging for everyone and definitely for Diana. in early 66, which is when it seems some of the serious cracks really started to occur, Diana was now really started to emerge not just as a lead singer but a LEADER. her confidence was building and this allowed her to try things and 'go for it.' One of the key reasons she could was because she knew M and F were behind her and were perfect. This gave her the freedom then to do her thing.

[RanRan79]

I think she needed the group more than Flo and Mary did at first. Diana was a vocally gifted singer, which is how she ended up in the Primettes in the first place. But her voice was such that I think only someone with a special ear could really figure out how to best use her. So to my thinking, Diana could've never really walked into just any record label USA and sang for whomever and gotten signed on the strength of her voice as a solo recording artist, not until after all of the years of development she had in those early Supremes years. I believe both Flo and Mary could've done that. How much success either of them would've had is certainly up for debate, but I think their voices were good enough and their talents clear enough that at any given time they could've lucked up on a record label willing to take a chance on them as solo artists.

Ultimately, the Supremes proved to be the vehicle they all needed. Diana needed the group atmosphere to hone her talent. As a member of a group, you find your place and keep up, or get left behind. Diana had to match what Flo, Mary and Betty were putting down, and then later keep matching Flo and Mary, in order to keep up and excel. That only served to make her better in the end, IMO.

Mary needed the group for confidence. She had already experienced the "she can't sing" from another girl group singer, which could not have done anything for her confidence. The next time Mary attempted a public performance, she lip synced to a record. So getting a spot in the Primettes had to be a real triumph for her and boost to her ego. As time would go on, Mary would exhibit more confidence issues and being able to "hide" in the group kept her going. Ultimately, stretching her wings within the confines of the group also helped her to eventually fly out from the group and find herself as a solo.

There's little to suggest that Flo had confidence issues. Music was the thing everyone pretty much agreed Flo excelled at in those early years. So I have to wonder if Florence needed the group for companionship. We know that she missed her family dearly while on the road with the Supremes, but how much worse might it have been had she been on the road alone? Could she have turned to alcohol sooner? Maybe been introduced to harder drugs in order to cope? By the time the Supremes became THE SUPREMES, Diana and Mary were like family to Florence, and also being from the same neighborhood, that had to be some measure of comfort, minus the point when the relationships took a turn for the worse. And then with her rape, without a group to turn to, would Flo have ever gotten back into music?

All of these are just the thoughts going through my mind, with very few facts attached. Whatever the "real" answer to the question is, I think it's safe to say that there was certainly a reason why these three women were brought together and ultimately achieved the legendary status that they did. The "why" of it all doesn't seem as important when you look at the end result.

[thanxal]

Thinking it over, do you think Diana Ross could have hit the heights she did without the framework of the Supremes to launch her? She would have had success, she had a unique voice and was very exotic looking visually in the outfits that she wore but I think she developed them through the framework of the group. As Mary Wilson points out, the three of them had different personalities which gave the group a roundness-something for everyone. Diana learned from others and her groupmates to embellish upon her talents and when they went from hit makers to established stars with Cindy replacing Florence-she was the focal point but was still learning and growing so that when she left the group she had established confidence and an awareness of everything she could accomplish. I think had she started as a solo act, she would have garnered attention but the Supremes framework really helped launch her into a solo career. I don't think she would have been quite so big had she not been in the Supremes-it was like a college course that she used to learn and grow. To be honest, even Mary used it to learn and grow to become a solo artist from a background singer. Any opinions on this topic? And, no, this is not to disparage anyone's talent or to cause drama on here-just an observation. Even Diana told oprah, they were wonderful growth years.

The only person who had the power to answer this question answered it conclusively. Had Diana had the solo potential, Berry would have launched her directly into a solo career. Clearly he thought she needed the group or would have her go solo from the start since there were other female solo acts at Motown by the time the Supremes came along. He didn't therefore she did [[need them).

[midnightman]

We have to understand, when the Supremes started off as the Primettes, Diana was just like Mary and Florence: she wanted to sing in front of people and be a star. They all shared a common goal: one for all and all for one even if DR had something of an independent streak [[in fact all three original Supremes were pretty independent. I think Mary said besides from the goal they shared of being stars, they were three different women that "got put together"). And when Berry Gordy got with them, he had to think of a plan to get the Supremes out there because they struggled the most out of the label's original stars [[the Temptations also struggled on the charts but they built a successful reputation on the road and their songs were pretty successful in regional cities whereas the Supremes' songs prior to, maybe Lovelight, never left the Detroit area with some exceptions). The group, as we all know, had no real identifiable sound. Berry was a genius, he saw who carried the best as far as hit potential and that was Diana and he soon heard a woman who could carry black AND white but he had to rein it in and that's what he did. This push for solo didn't start happening until the situation with Florence got bad.

[Roberta75]

Well said midnighman.

[captainjames]

I believe Diana benefited from being in the Supremes but let us not forget that Berry wanted to pull her out of the group around 1965-66. It was Diana who did not want to leave just yet. Anyone who was at Motown around this time would tell you that there was going to be a Diana Ross simply by the way she carried herself. There are some that say no other record company would have signed her but Lupine did and recorded her on one of the lead songs so I think eventually she would have got a break somehow.

Now as far as pacing herself by Flo and Mary, I think Diana paced herself more with her sister Barbara. If Barbara was going to break out of the projects so would she somehow.

[RanRan79]

The only person who had the power to answer this question answered it conclusively. Had Diana had the solo potential, Berry would have launched her directly into a solo career. Clearly he thought she needed the group or would have her go solo from the start since there were other female solo acts at Motown by the time the Supremes came along. He didn't therefore she did [[need them).

Excellent point.

[captainjames]

From what I remember Berry was ready to pull her from the group around the time of the Copa 1965-66.

[RanRan79]

I believe Diana benefited from being in the Supremes but let us not forget that Berry wanted to pull her out of the group around 1965-66. It was Diana who did not want to leave just yet. Anyone who was at Motown around this time would tell you that there was going to be a Diana Ross simply by the way she carried herself. There are some that say no other record company would have signed her but Lupine did and recorded her on one of the lead songs so I think eventually she would have got a break somehow.

Now as far as pacing herself by Flo and Mary, I think Diana paced herself more with her sister Barbara. If Barbara was going to break out of the projects so would she somehow.

Barbara Ross was not a member of the Supremes, so Diana had to be on pace with her groupmates. Her sibling rivalry with Barbara was something else entirely and would be of no good to Diana where the Supremes were concerned.

Diana did not walk into Lupine. She was brought to Lupine with Flo and Mary by Richard Morris. My point was that Diana could not walk into a record label on her own unless whoever was in charge figured out how special she was. As I pointed out in a thread last month, Paul Williams was the first to hear Diana and think her voice worthy of a singing group. Milton Jenkins then heard Diana and deemed her not only worthy of a singing group, but also worthy to sing leads. Richard Morris apparently heard the same thing, hence his giving "Tears Of Sorrow" to Diana. And then Berry heard her and the rest is history. Now even with all of that, they heard Diana in the confines of a singing group. I don't think she would've ever really gotten much of a chance anywhere on her own until sometime in 1963, but definitely as of the mid 60s.

I still don't buy that Gordy seriously contemplated Diana leaving the group in 1966. Did he ever ponder the possibilities? Certainly. Was it ever a "Okay, lets move on this" and then Diana nixed the idea? Nah. Not ever gonna be convinced. Even Gordy had to be smarter than that. I watch Diana in 1966 and I see a star within a star vehicle emerging. But she was a far cry from what she'd be even two years later in 1968, and even in 68 I'm not sure she had every ounce of what she needed to be DIANA ROSS as of 1970. And even in 1970 she launches to a half packed house. So after all of that the public was still like "Diana and the Supremes? Great!", "Diana Ross by herself? Meh." Diana would've left the group in 1966 and fallen flat on her face. And Gordy would've moved on to the next one...

[sup_fan]

ran - i agree. i don't think mid/late 66 was a real serious time for Diana to go solo. I think it was more about the situation with Flo and the problems within the group. B and D would most certainly have been trying to figure out how to handle that problem, which seemed to just grow larger day by day. of course i'm sure a solo career was part of the discussion and that seems to be where they started outlining more of a master plan for the future.

plans started being laid around this time for tv appearances [[Tarzan) and bigger tv appearances, from Saks gowns to designer, bigger clubs, more international tours. Given her star billing would then be tying her name with all of these events, in addition to the Sups' name.

[captainjames]

I still believe that Gordy wanted her out of the group by the early 65 at whatever cost. This was probably around the time the relationship started and most of the stage synchronize steps and routines were no longer of three but as a lead and two girls in the background Diana was not following or pacing with Florence and Mary, she was doing her own thing on stage and becoming DIANA ROSS. The Farewell tour and the Welcome to See if Diana Ross can make it by herself show I think was done too close to each other. However,,,, Gordy went out and paid for tickets to get folks to come to the show......LOL.
So yes the group was a benefit for all three in the very early beginning but that's all it was.

[reese]

Now as far as pacing herself by Flo and Mary, I think Diana paced herself more with her sister Barbara. If Barbara was going to break out of the projects so would she somehow.

In her first interview with EBONY as a solo, Diana mentioned that she and Mary paced each other for years. She even said that it might even be hard being a single without someone to pace herself with. But then she concluded that she was now grown and didn't need someone to pace with. She also said that with her being out of the group, people would now see how much talent Mary had.

In his book, Berry said the same about Diana and Mary. I think he even said something like Diana had to be better because Mary was breathing down her neck, talent-wise.

[sup_fan]

the group's choreography usually had diana standing by herself. there are lots of videos of this - the WDOLG bit on Steve Allen, the TAMI show, those early clips in the Netherlands doing Where and Lovelight and others, the clip of them at the Apollo doing My Heart Can't Take it.

i think a lot of people make a big deal out of CSAM on Ed Sullivan, with Diana in the middle. when they did this song on Shindig, all 3 girls did the same choreography. But then on Hullabaloo and Ed and others, they didn't.

and that story about Diana putting up a fight with Cholly about choreography at the Copa, not so sure about it. keep in mind that the microphones would have all had their levels set prior to the show. moving back and forth between them [[and especially on a tiny stage like the Copa) would have been challenging. Sure M and F could have joined Diana by the lead mic - they did this during some of the You Can't Hurry Love choreography. you can see that in the Orient video. also, Diana was already typically on the right. so i'm not so sure this story isn't some embellished folklore. Now i do think she could have been difficult w regarding choreography. For the most part she did not do the routines like M and F.

[midnightman]

In most of the early Supremes performances, Diana is standing by herself most of the time.

I think when folks mentioned how Diana would always stand in front of the girls as if intentional wanted some drama.

The truth can be boring sometimes. Was Diana difficult at times? Absolutely but I think it's exaggerated.

[Jimi LaLumia]

would Lionel Richie have if not being in The Commodores?
Michael if not for The J 5?
Smokey's solo career if not having been in The Miracles?
in the 60's, groups were "in"..
by the 70's, solo stars were 'in' and groups' were OUT..
would Lennon and/or McCartney been huge stars in the 70's if not first in The Beatles?
it was an industry trend

[vgalindo]

would Lionel Richie have if not being in The Commodores?
Michael if not for The J 5?
Smokey's solo career if not having been in The Miracles?
in the 60's, groups were "in"..
by the 70's, solo stars were 'in' and groups' were OUT..
would Lennon and/or McCartney been huge stars in the 70's if not first in The Beatles?
it was an industry trend

What a great point. Thank you.

[RanRan79]

would Lionel Richie have if not being in The Commodores?
Michael if not for The J 5?
Smokey's solo career if not having been in The Miracles?
in the 60's, groups were "in"..
by the 70's, solo stars were 'in' and groups' were OUT..
would Lennon and/or McCartney been huge stars in the 70's if not first in The Beatles?
it was an industry trend

Yes, without the Commodores, Lionel Richie could have still been a star. I can't believe you even put MJ in this. No disrespect to his brothers, but come on now. Two years after the J5 hit Motown, Michael was releasing solo work. And yes, Smokey too didn't necessarily need the Miracles, especially because, like Lionel, he was an exceptional songwriter, which usually lends itself quite well to being able to sing one's own compositions. I'm tempted not to comment on the Beatles since I've never really understood their appeal outside of their songwriting, but what the hell...Personally I've never thought any of them as remarkably vocally talented, so on this one I'd have to agree that without the Beatles itself, Lennon nor McCartney would have been what they eventually became.

IMO Diana was remarkably talented, but her voice was so out of the ordinary that it took special ears to tune into how to best use it. Even at Motown it took quite a few experiments to figure out the right combo of her voice and song. And of course when it did happen...well here we are in a sub-forum devoted to the group and it's members.

[floyjoy678]

Yes Diana needed the Supremes [[at least up until '67) as much as they needed her.

John, Paul, George and Ringo all needed one another up until Sgt Peppers. Like DMF, their different personalities complemented each other well and was an appeal of the group.

MJ probably didn't need J5 and no Lionel didn't need the Commodores. Smokey didn't need the Miracles after '65, same with Martha.

[floyjoy678]

The public loved the Supremes as a group. From my standpoint, I paid attention to all three until Flo left. That's when I started paying only Diana attention.

[thommg]

What the heck, I'll add my two cents. Could Diana have had a career as a singer without the Supremes.? Yes, absolutely. But, she would have been one of many Black female singers working and trying to gain traction. With The Supremes, she was able to find her footing, stage persona, and a mentor who would guide her. There was something special about The Supremes that set them apart from other female groups at that time. They could do more than pop music, and they appealed to both adults and teens. Diana might have been able to do this on her own, but she still would have been in a much larger pool of single performers than The Supremes were with Black female groups, and would have had a harder time breaking out.

[lucky2012]

IMO Diana was remarkably talented, but her voice was so out of the ordinary that it took special ears to tune into how to best use it. Even at Motown it took quite a few experiments to figure out the right combo of her voice and song. And of course when it did happen...well here we are in a sub-forum devoted to the group and it's members.

And aren't we oh so grateful for those special ears! She is the Voice and The Supremes and Motown are the soundtrack of my life. Thank you, Berry Gordy, Smokey and HDH!

Yes, without the Commodores, Lionel Richie could have still been a star. I can't believe you even put MJ in this. No disrespect to his brothers, but come on now. Two years after the J5 hit Motown, Michael was releasing solo work. And yes, Smokey too didn't necessarily need the Miracles, especially because, like Lionel, he was an exceptional songwriter, which usually lends itself quite well to being able to sing one's own compositions. I'm tempted not to comment on the Beatles since I've never really understood their appeal outside of their songwriting, but what the hell...Personally I've never thought any of them as remarkably vocally talented, so on this one I'd have to agree that without the Beatles itself, Lennon nor McCartney would have been what they eventually became.

The very young Michael Jackson was the one exceptional vocalist who I think could have been a star without the group. John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Smokey and Lionel are exceptional songwriters who became stars because their groups gave them the right settings.

The young Diana Ross on the HDH-produced Supremes singles [[from Where Did Our Love Go on) I think could have become a solo star. Her special vocal magic has always needed the right producers and settings.

[midnightman]

Michael didn't need his brothers lmao

Rare I'm defending him but he didn't need the J5. He WAS the J5.

[blackguy69]

To a degree he did. They could have done without Marlon and Tito and still been successful

Michael didn't need his brothers lmao

Rare I'm defending him but he didn't need the J5. He WAS the J5.

[Ollie9]

Yes Diana needed the Supremes [[at least up until '67) as much as they needed her. .

Nail on head post.. Agree 100%

[jobeterob]

Diana was always a standout and was going to be a star. When I was a kid and they were on Ed Sullivan, I remember my mom saying she did not like that one in the middle that bulged her eyes out at you.

I think Mary had great poise and personality and was definitely a looker - but the reason she wasn’t a successful solo was because she had a very pedestrian run of the mill voice.

All that being said, there were a couple of years during the huge hit making years when Diana singing against Flo and Mary [[especially Flo), made for a sound of their own that was never duplicated and is classic

[captainjames]

I guess I am too hung up on the word "Need". Diana benefited by being a Supreme but I don't feel she needed them. Levi didn't need the Tops and Gladys didn't need the Pips and Diana didn't need the Supremes.

[TYK1986]

The Supremes needed HDH and the Funk Brother lol. I can listen for hours to the instrumental tracks. I think Diana could have been a star without the Supremes but I'm thankful it went the way it happened.

[sup_fan]

i remember an old quote, i believe from Mabel John. it's in an older Motown book by randy.

basically Mabel describes the success of the Supremes and of Diana Ross within the Supremes as:

Diana was a diamond in the rough as were M and F. through motown, Diana emerged as a diamond that sparkled brilliantly against the lush and deep velvet background of M and F.


So basically Diana is a diamond and would have looked lovely by herself but set against the beautiful backdrop of Mary and Florence, she shone even more brightly and was all the more stunning

[Boogiedown]

i remember an old quote, i believe from Mabel John. it's in an older Motown book by randy.

basically Mabel describes the success of the Supremes and of Diana Ross within the Supremes as:

Diana was a diamond in the rough as were M and F. through motown, Diana emerged as a diamond that sparkled brilliantly against the lush and deep velvet background of M and F.


So basically Diana is a diamond and would have looked lovely by herself but set against the beautiful backdrop of Mary and Florence, she shone even more brightly and was all the more stunning

It's kind of fascinating psychology..... you needed John , Ringo, and George for 'everyone' to 'choose' Paul....


I think Diana did need The Supremes. Together those girls, hand in hand , took on the world.
And I wonder how different the material turned out by it being for them, by writing and arranging their music with a group in mind...

[Jimi LaLumia]

Diana being in a group first is no different than MJ,etc being in a group first in all cases being powered by a teen audience that loved groups at the time, I know, I was one of those teens. my point is the correct one in spite of all the usual blather here; all the individuals i mentioned needed a group context as they rose to fame in the era of groups and that's that! lol

[RanRan79]

What the heck, I'll add my two cents. Could Diana have had a career as a singer without the Supremes.? Yes, absolutely. But, she would have been one of many Black female singers working and trying to gain traction. With The Supremes, she was able to find her footing, stage persona, and a mentor who would guide her. There was something special about The Supremes that set them apart from other female groups at that time. They could do more than pop music, and they appealed to both adults and teens. Diana might have been able to do this on her own, but she still would have been in a much larger pool of single performers than The Supremes were with Black female groups, and would have had a harder time breaking out.

This is an excellent observation.

[RanRan79]

To a degree he did. They could have done without Marlon and Tito and still been successful

Michael could've done without Jackie and Jermaine too, and still been successful IMO. No doubt about it, Jackson Mania was a result of the combination of these five handsome boys plus Michael's unique voice, the catchy songs, Michael incredible showmanship. So for me it's not that the J5 were only about Michael, but instead the question of could Joe Jackson have brought Michael to Motown without his brothers and MJ be enthusiastically signed? My answer is yes. He was just that special.

[RanRan79]

I guess I am too hung up on the word "Need". Diana benefited by being a Supreme but I don't feel she needed them. Levi didn't need the Tops and Gladys didn't need the Pips and Diana didn't need the Supremes.

No, Levi didn't need the Tops and Gladys didn't need the Pips. Both were extraordinarily gifted vocalists that Helen Keller would've signed to a record deal. I would not compare their abilities to Diana's.

[RanRan79]

So basically Diana is a diamond and would have looked lovely by herself but set against the beautiful backdrop of Mary and Florence, she shone even more brightly and was all the more stunning

I think describing early Diana as a diamond in the rough is about as accurate a description there is. So if you dissect the term "diamond in the rough", you're talking about something who's beauty isn't yet obvious. Not until it is cut and polished does a diamond become an exceptional jewel. I would say that was Diana Ross in the very early 60s. Few could possibly see the value in what she had, Berry Gordy being an obvious one who took a chance that paid off. But the man had to cut and polish her for years before she emerged an expensive jewel. Would the label head at Columbia Records, or Atlantic, or Brunswick, or Stax, or ABC, or any of the other thousand record companies in the nation have taken that same chance? I doubt it. And honestly, like TKY says above, I'm glad it happened the way that it did because there's no guarantee that even if someone did sign her, that they would've put in the time and effort to turn her into DIANA ROSS. Gordy did that. And for all my criticisms of him, I'll never say a bad word about his ability to stick with Diana Ross who has brought me an unquantifiable amount of joy and pleasure with her gift, both as a Supreme and a soloist.

[RanRan79]

my point is the correct one in spite of all the usual blather here;

If it's correct, prove it. Facts can be proven. We're not dealing in facts in this thread. Every person here has an opinion. Some of that opinion may be rooted in tangible facts, but it's still an opinion. Until someone builds a time machine and convinces Diane Ross to give the Primettes the finger and encourages her to attempt to get signed by a record label other than Motown, and then such signing happens and Diane Ross is still able to become Diana Ross, the most successful female singer of the 20th Century, without any aid from the Supremes or a Motown machine, then you'd be correct. Until then: welcome to the opinion period of your life.

[Ollie9]

No, Levi didn't need the Tops and Gladys didn't need the Pips. Both were extraordinarily gifted vocalists that Helen Keller would've signed to a record deal. I would not compare their abilities to Diana's.

Absolutely. People are forgetting that Diana’s huge success is built as much on image as it is on talent.. I don’t think the same could be said of Gladys or Levi.
Diana had to work extremely hard at her craft. It took a while to develop her own style and strength of voice. That is why a group setting was the ideal platform. By 67 things were perhaps changing.

[TheMotownManiac]

I don’t think Diana needed the Supremes necessarily, but she needed some place to able to hone her craft. Gladys and Levi and Barbra Streisand and Janis Joplin and Judy Garland and everybody had audiences to bounce their work off of. It worked out great because not only did the Supremes become huge and diana ross become an icon, but the gigantic globs of money the Supremes brought in especially those early years and gave Motown The money it needed desperately to expand and grow and invest in other acts like Gladys and the Jackson 5. I definitely believe that diana ross would be a star today if she had never met Barry Gordy, there’s no way she was going to be denied her chance. It’s been decades since she has had a hit record in Europe and yet she has a string of sold out arenas are waiting for her next summer. Like others have pointed out, Mary found her voice and her style by working with audiences. Martha Reeves became a great entertainer but it took decades. Next to the Supremes, the Vandellas stunk on ready steady go and Ed Sullivan. And now, wow Martha‘s voice seems to have gone on vacation for a while, it has not affected her ability to please an audience at all. She just needed a chance, I’ll be it a long one, to learn what works on stage

[RanRan79]

Absolutely. People are forgetting that Diana’s huge success is built as much on image as it is on talent.. I don’t think the same could be said of Gladys or Levi.
Diana had to work extremely hard at her craft. It took a while to develop her own style and strength of voice. That is why a group setting was the ideal platform. By 67 things were perhaps changing.

Yeah, Gladys and Levi were all voice. I've seen their performances [[via video) and I'd rather just hear them sing. Not that I'm bothered by their visuals. Both had stage presence and were stars in their own right. But Diana was not only a voice, but she was indeed an image. She was a total package. One reason I think she made a great transition to acting is because we could look at her and enjoy it even when she wasn't singing. Lol She eventually developed a captivating voice and a captivating look and onstage persona. I don't believe she possessed any of this while a Primette or very early Supreme. She walked into the group with a natural talent for singing. Lots of people have natural singing ability. Honing it is what set Diana Ross apart from many others at the same time.

[RanRan79]

I don’t think Diana needed the Supremes necessarily, but she needed some place to able to hone her craft.

But who would've given her that chance? Imagine Diane Ross walking into Record Label USA in 1960 and singing "Tears Of Sorrow" [[the earliest known Diana Ross recording). Even within the Primettes, Gordy saw some appeal in Diana, but not enough to sign her or the group on the spot. And when he did sign her, if he was so much more impressed with her than anyone else in the group, he could've easily told her to ditch them and he'd give her a deal. He didn't.

I do think that eventually, Diana Ross may have been able to hone her skills, group or no group, without the aid of Gordy or Motown and emerged with success. I'm not convinced she would've ever been THE DIANA ROSS we know today if not for Berry Gordy's vision for her. It's hard for me to believe that anyone else could have the genius idea he had for her. There was no Black female superstar before Diana Ross. One could make the argument that Josephine Baker was that, but her era was vastly different than Diana's in the way that media presented people to the world. Diana set the stage for every Black female superstar to come after her. Hell, even some white ones. I think only Berry Gordy had the ability to do this. Anywhere else, Diana would've recorded music, had some hits, done some television, but I just don't see anyone turning her into the force we know today. Sometimes the difference between thing A and thing B is who you cross paths with.

[captainjames]

No, Levi didn't need the Tops and Gladys didn't need the Pips. Both were extraordinarily gifted vocalists that Helen Keller would've signed to a record deal. I would not compare their abilities to Diana's.

I would, because what Diana didn't have in the stadium voice as I sometimes refer to she made up in here showmanship on stage. She was born to entertain. Levi and Gladys as many Motown artists will still say today feel they had better vocals but Diana knew how to get the audience on her. Check her out on Ready Steady Go while Smokey is singing. NEED ,,,,NO !!!

[lucky2012]

I do think that eventually, Diana Ross may have been able to hone her skills, group or no group, without the aid of Gordy or Motown and emerged with success. I'm not convinced she would've ever been THE DIANA ROSS we know today if not for Berry Gordy's vision for her. It's hard for me to believe that anyone else could have the genius idea he had for her. There was no Black female superstar before Diana Ross. One could make the argument that Josephine Baker was that, but her era was vastly different than Diana's in the way that media presented people to the world. Diana set the stage for every Black female superstar to come after her. Hell, even some white ones. I think only Berry Gordy had the ability to do this. Anywhere else, Diana would've recorded music, had some hits, done some television, but I just don't see anyone turning her into the force we know today. Sometimes the difference between thing A and thing B is who you cross paths with.

Preach, RanRan! [[Even if it's to the Lucky2012 choir).

Levi didn't need the Tops and Gladys didn't need the Pips. Both were extraordinarily gifted vocalists that Helen Keller would've signed to a record deal. I would not compare their abilities to Diana's.

Preference is a matter of perspective. I don't know if Helen Keller would have found Levi or Gladys extraordinarily gifted in her time and place. My parents were younger [[part of "the Greatest Generation"). My dad, especially, really disliked and disparaged the Beatles' and most rock'n'roll singers' vocal abilities. They liked Ray Charles and Sam Cooke but not necessarily Aretha or Otis. My parents' favorite singers were Nat King Cole, Patti Page and Doris Day. I think they were indifferent to and tolerated my love of Motown. But they did admire Diana Ross's singing on albums like I Hear A Symphony and Sing Rodgers & Hart. They especially loved Merry Christmas.

[RanRan79]

I would, because what Diana didn't have in the stadium voice as I sometimes refer to she made up in here showmanship on stage. She was born to entertain. Levi and Gladys as many Motown artists will still say today feel they had better vocals but Diana knew how to get the audience on her. Check her out on Ready Steady Go while Smokey is singing. NEED ,,,,NO !!!

Ready Steady Go was 1965. By then she had been focused on her craft for years. She was basically a seasoned pro, although the group had only recently started having success. Maybe there's a breakdown and in where we're judging her. I took the original question in the thread to refer to Diana never having joined the group. With or without a group, years of focus on developing her talent should have, and probably would have, paid off. But again I ask, who was signing her as she sang "Tears Of Sorrow"? Diana 1959/1960 wasn't anywhere near the vocalist Diana of the mid 60s.

As far as being better vocalists, I don't usually judge singers in this way. To me you either can sing or you can't. As artists with talents, those talents are different and are what God wanted that particular person to have and really aren't comparable to anyone else. So when I say I wouldn't compare Levi and Gladys to Diana, I don't mean to suggest that they were "better" vocalist, but instead that they had an easier recognizable "we can do something with this" voice. Diana's voice was unconventional. Unconventional never means worse, but it does mean not everyone will get it. Berry had a good ear for unconventional. He saw early on what made Diana's voice special, he just needed the right formula to pair it with. That made him a genius of sorts. I would not describe most record label owners of any time period as "genius".

[RanRan79]

Preference is a matter of perspective. I don't know if Helen Keller would have found Levi or Gladys extraordinarily gifted in her time and place. My parents were younger [[part of "the Greatest Generation"). My dad, especially, really disliked and disparaged the Beatles' and most rock'n'roll singers' vocal abilities. They liked Ray Charles and Sam Cooke but not necessarily Aretha or Otis. My parents' favorite singers were Nat King Cole, Patti Page and Doris Day. I think they were indifferent to and tolerated my love of Motown. But they did admire Diana Ross's singing on albums like I Hear A Symphony and Sing Rodgers & Hart. They especially loved Merry Christmas.

You're wrong Lucky.

Helen Keller could neither see nor hear, however, so the story goes, one day about a year before her death, she was in a room with someone who had a radio on. The Four Tops came on singing "Bernadette" and immediately afterwards the DJ played Gladys and the Pips singing "Grapevine". Witnesses say Helen stood up and started moving in a way she never had before. They thought she could surely hear the music. She had never danced before or since. But the story goes, Levi and Gladys had that deaf lady out of her seat and on her feet. So I'd say you're wrong on that. Helen would've signed Levi and Gladys.

Of course there's also a chance that a bug flew up Helen's dress and she was only shaking it out. But my money's on Levi and Gladys.

[Ollie9]

Ready Steady Go was 1965. By then she had been focused on her craft for years. She was basically a seasoned pro, although the group had only recently started having success. Maybe there's a breakdown and in where we're judging her. I took the original question in the thread to refer to Diana never having joined the group. With or without a group, years of focus on developing her talent should have, and probably would have, paid off. But again I ask, who was signing her as she sang "Tears Of Sorrow"? Diana 1959/1960 wasn't anywhere near the vocalist Diana of the mid 60s.

As far as being better vocalists, I don't usually judge singers in this way. To me you either can sing or you can't. As artists with talents, those talents are different and are what God wanted that particular person to have and really aren't comparable to anyone else. So when I say I wouldn't compare Levi and Gladys to Diana, I don't mean to suggest that they were "better" vocalist, but instead that they had an easier recognizable "we can do something with this" voice. Diana's voice was unconventional. Unconventional never means worse, but it does mean not everyone will get it. Berry had a good ear for unconventional. He saw early on what made Diana's voice special, he just needed the right formula to pair it with. That made him a genius of sorts. I would not describe most record label owners of any time period as "genius".

Diana herself acknowledges it was Berry who was responsible for creating the huge star she became. To quote her words He believed in me”.
I seriously doubt The Ross voice of 59,60,or even 61 would have had record execs clamouring to sign her. The way it eventually happened was written in the stars.

[lucky2012]

You're wrong Lucky.

Helen Keller could neither see nor hear, however, so the story goes, one day about a year before her death, she was in a room with someone who had a radio on. The Four Tops came on singing "Bernadette" and immediately afterwards the DJ played Gladys and the Pips singing "Grapevine". Witnesses say Helen stood up and started moving in a way she never had before. They thought she could surely hear the music. She had never danced before or since. But the story goes, Levi and Gladys had that deaf lady out of her seat and on her feet. So I'd say you're wrong on that. Helen would've signed Levi and Gladys.

Of course there's also a chance that a bug flew up Helen's dress and she was only shaking it out. But my money's on Levi and Gladys.

Lol. I forgot about all that about Helen Keller!

[midnightman]

Some of us are forgetting the man who helped put her where she is right now:



She needed more than the Supremes, Berry Gordy was literally one of the few people who believed in her and pushed her, sometimes to the breaking point, but look what came out of it.

[Bluebrock]

Some of us are forgetting the man who helped put her where she is right now:



She needed more than the Supremes, Berry Gordy was literally one of the few people who believed in her and pushed her, sometimes to the breaking point, but look what came out of it.

You are 100% correct Midnightman. Diana told me she owed everything to Berry. He was the one who noticed her potential, believed in her ability and made her work harder to perfect her art and gave her the confidence to take on the world and conquer it.
I do think she needed the safety net of the Supremes to guide her through those early years, but Diana and Berry combined made for an unstoppable force, and nothing and no-one were ever going to derail that juggernaut.
On a personal note i would like to thank everyone for their kind wishes and get well messages that i have received during my lengthy absence from this forum. Your love, support, kind thoughts and prayers have helped me through a very challenging period in my life. The fight continues and is by no means over, but i have been moved to tears by your kindness and consideration at this most difficult of times. My faith in God has kept me on the level along with the support of my ever loyal and loving family and friends. I have even received two beautiful and personal messages of support from Ms Ross herself which were heartfelt and totally unexpected. I was told i had to recover in time to tend to her on her rescheduled UK tour dates which i found very amusing!
Once again thank you to each and everyone of you for your kindness at this very bleak time.
God Bless you all xx

[sansradio]

So wonderful to have you back, Bluebrock!!!