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  1. #1
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    Third and final disco chart data - MS&S

    Walking was a big dance hit. it even ranked #15 for 1976 according to Billboard best dance tracks. it charted very high in NYC, LA, DC, Boston and San Diego and all at the same time. My guess is this is what helped it crossover to mainstream pop radio and go to #40

    the MS&S set seems to have similarities to both the performance of Sup 75 and Walking

    at the beginning of Sept 76, Billboard redid it's chart information. They dropped the regional store sales and instead published a national chart ranking and then listed the the Top 15 hits for the major metro areas.

    You had different songs hitting the charts from MS&S. Some markets were all over these songs. Some completely ignored them

    Like the HE lp, the MS&S album charted for 1 week in NYC as the full album, all cuts. otherwise everything was listed by song[[s)

    for Nov and Dec 76, Wheel was listed by itself on the charts and rose to #6.

    Then in the first week of Jan, it was co-listed with LYG and LINKYCFSG and rose to #5 for 1 week. then it began to slide and was off the disco top 40 by early March

    Atlanta liked MS&S - for a couple weeks it listed Wheel/Let/love i never knew. Then switched to Wheel/Let/dont wanna be, peaking at #2

    Miami only listed Wheel for a couple weeks then focused on LYG and Dont wanna be tied down peaking at #5

    LA, San Dieog, PHoenix, Boston, DC and Balt only listed the songs a little. after a lot of chart action with Walking, the MS&S songs only lasted on their charts for a couple weeks.

    NYC peaked at #4 with Wheel/Let/don't want to be but they too changed up the co-listing songs. sometimes Don't, sometimes Never Knew

    San fran also peaked high - #2 but didn't keep the songs long on the list


    Chicago was all about Let Yourself Go. they started with Wheel for a couple weeks by itself, then a couple weeks co-listing. but finally they just focused on LYG and it peaked at 5 and was on the charts by itself for about 10 weeks. while not longer, it was on the charts the latest of any market

    Oddly enough - Detroit, Dallas, Houston, NOLA, Pittsburgh, MOntreal completely ignored all of the songs. nothing ever listed

    Finally Philly had Come Into My Life just creep into the listings. for 1 week in Jan CIML hit #15. no co-listing. just by itself

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    thank you for this info....I remember a NYC review stating this was the only current LP that ALL the cuts were being played in the clubs...J&R Music played it in the store, and they gave it entry way, end rack high visibility space....this was when they were a basement record store...not a full block empire.

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    i don't personally know exactly how record labels promoted and catered to the big djs in clubs during this time. If the promotional and sales teams would go to the big cities with new records and try to encourage club play. I've seen the movie Thank God It's Friday lolol but not so confident it's an accurate portrayal of things lolol

    It's been written about some of Diana's albums [[like Baby It's Me and Force) that disjointed promotional campaign and lead single choice lead to poor chart performance. Not sure if that was the case with MS&S but given the discrepancies with chart activity, you'd have to wonder. Wheel seemed to do pretty well but not as strong as Walking. I've always thought LYG should have been the lead single. Let and Walking are much more similar tunes and so perhaps LYG could have benefited from that. Have a much more solid performance across the disco markets and then make a better jump to the pop market

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    IMHO..Motown was too late to the party....12" singles had fatter sound and were preferred to be used by DJ's over 7" and LP cuts...they should have taken a cue from Salsoul, Casablanca, TK and the others.
    He's My Man, Where Do I Go From Here, Let My Heart, Driving Wheel and Let Yourself Go most likely would have done better if extended Promo's were issued, and made commercially available. I didn't list HIGH ENERGY because I think there was enough on the LP track to work with [[same for Love Hangover)...it should have, however, been edited to radio friendly length and issued as a single once Let My Heat peaked

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    valid point - the longer mixes would have definitely helped. although the songs still did chart well. walking was a big hit in the clubs.

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    its a nice accolade to have, but the dance charts didn't have same power as a top 10 across the board pop hit...Donna Summers Try Me I Know We Can Make It and Spring Affair were #1 dance hits...they only did #80 and #53 Pop....Spring Affair got played a lot on my AM car radio pop station...
    I think Color My World Blue would have been the best bet for a pop hit off the '75 LP.
    Perhaps High Energy from HE..it had a bit more of a smooth jazz/pop feel and was less hardcore disco than Let My Heart...so maybe it would have gotten less backlash from the legions of disco haters.... Susaye's voice was a bit off beat and unique, but it made you take notice

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    If Motown had begun releasing 12"'s, Walking would've been waaaay more successful and it could've been the start of the return of good fortunes for the Supremes in its MSS lineup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    If Motown had begun releasing 12"'s, Walking would've been waaaay more successful and it could've been the start of the return of good fortunes for the Supremes in its MSS lineup.
    When did Motown start releasing 12"s? I don't recall seeing any until 1977 when they started doing 2 on 1s, like Diana on one side and Thelma Houston on the other. I don't think the Supremes ever had one besides the MEDLEY OF HITS from 1979.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    When did Motown start releasing 12"s? I don't recall seeing any until 1977 when they started doing 2 on 1s, like Diana on one side and Thelma Houston on the other. I don't think the Supremes ever had one besides the MEDLEY OF HITS from 1979.
    Before they started pressing them commercially, in the summer of 1975, Motown pressed two 12" promos for clubs, LOVE MACHINE and WALK AWAY FROM LOVE. Both of these were readily available to create as they both had longer versions than their 7" versions found on their corresponding LP formats. And the point of 12"ers, coupled with their amazing fidelity , was they provided the groove space for longer song versions.



    Disco was a NYC/Philly centrist phenomenon, especially at first, which kept Motown a little out of touch. I imagine WALK AWAY FROM LOVE got its 12" pressing at the urging of east coaster Van McCoy. And LOVE MACHINE had already been divided into a two part 45, what better gift for djs than to provide them the entire song in an uninterrupted format.

    IGLMHDTW needed a similar longer version to do even better in the clubs: on a 45 , on an LP, or best yet, on a twelve inch. Motown didn't quite understand this yet , nor did they know to bring in a remixer who could extend a song to better suit its club use.

    [[I don't know what Motown songs were specifically remixed for the sake of creating a 12" disco counterpart ?? HEAVEN MUST HAVE SENT YOU possibly the first??)

    Not being savvy about remixing , there was no sense in Motown's thinking to want to invest in an additional pressing of a 12" just to re-provide IGLMHDTW in its only existing version which clocked at only 3:33.

    This short length of what was otherwise a flawless disco record was a major misstep by Holland/Holland who apparently were not in tune with all the rapidly developing nuances of disco , this being their first real entry into the new genre.
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 08-29-2020 at 08:38 PM.

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    according to the Motown discography in Sharon Davis' book, the first US 12" was The Originals Down to Love Town b/w Jermaine Jackson Let's Be Young Tonight. Released in Nov 76

    they only released 3 in total in 76. 5 in 77 and 3 in 78. All of them were two artists.

    in March 79 they did Rick James with High on Your Love Suite b/w You and I.

    clearly Motown was not taking advantage of this longer disco format. And with Walking, there was certainly additional music recorded like the "Walk On! Walk On! Walk On!" background bit that they did on Bandstand. and which we've since heard on the unreleased tracks on the Let Yourself Go set.

    the unedited Walking is just under 5 mins. but they could have easily copied and pasted portions. in the unreleased alt vocal version by Scherrie on the set, they could have at 3:52 [[after the Walk On/Walk On/Walk On section) gone back to just the congas. like at the beginning of the song. given it an excellent break in the middle. then start laying bits back on. Maybe incorporate more of Susaye's solo ad libs. then a more choruses . been very easy to stretch this to 7 - 10 mins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the unedited Walking is just under 5 mins. but they could have easily copied and pasted portions. in the unreleased alt vocal version by Scherrie on the set, they could have at 3:52 [[after the Walk On/Walk On/Walk On section) gone back to just the congas. like at the beginning of the song. given it an excellent break in the middle. then start laying bits back on. Maybe incorporate more of Susaye's solo ad libs. then a more choruses . been very easy to stretch this to 7 - 10 mins.
    I would love for George to pop in right about now. I wonder if there was ever a thought to create a "12 inch" extended stand in version of "Walking" for the LYG set, and if not, is there any chance we might get that in the future.

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    "Got to Give It Up" and "Love Machine" were probably the most successful 12"'s Motown put out.

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    In '76 I went to a friends catering hall sweet 16 party....I asked the DJ if he had IGLMHDTW....I was surprised he said yes. It was relatively current, and I never heard it on pop radio.
    He pulled out two 7" singles....he started playing one, and seamlessly started the 2nd one at the center break....it was very much like the version on Greatest Hits/Rare Classics....thank God that CD came along. I loved the unedited Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine cuts....and it was great to have anything from the Scherrie era on CD
    Last edited by gman; 09-01-2020 at 03:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    In '76 I went to a friends catering hall sweet 16 party....I asked the DJ if he had IGLMHDTW....I was surprised he said yes. It was relatively current, and I never heard it on pop radio.
    He pulled out two 7" singles....he started playing one, and seamlessly started the 2nd one at the center break....it was very much like the version on Greatest Hits/Rare Classics....thank God that CD came along. I loved the unedited Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine cuts....and it was great to have anything from the Scherrie era on CD
    I have to track down a copy of the GHARC cd. I only have the cassette, and apparently the content is a bit different from one format to the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I have to track down a copy of the GHARC cd. I only have the cassette, and apparently the content is a bit different from one format to the other.
    i'd suggest searching on Youtube for the tracks. the cd on ebay might be wildly expensive. I have a program on my Mac which allows me to download audio or video from Youtube as a file so it's been great when these various vids of the girls come out. or tracking down rare bootleg live performances, etc.

    or i can burn you a copy of the cd and mail it to you

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    I agree with most everyone that I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking was more than deserving to be a big pop hit from the final years. Most know that the original mix on the High Energy LP was longer than the edit they released. But as stated above, when the song is played out without an edit or fade it runs nearly 5 minutes. Even that would have been a welcome 12" version. For those who have asked about the Greatest Hits & Rare Classics version on the CD. I made that edit in the studio going back to the intro. I was playing "quality control" and thought it was much more commercial that way, plus it gave us something different. I wish I had the time to have extended that version. We played with many ideas for The Final Sessions but after years of waiting for it to happen, we only had limited time in the studio with Kevin. Andy and I do as much work in advance as possible but then sometimes discover new things while we're in the studio. But we simply run out of time. It's like Berry Gordy said of Lady Sings The Blues. It's like we suddenly have to put up a screen that says "The End." [[If anyone doesn't get the reference, I'm sure someone will explain). Also the track list has to be cleared before we even start working and it's really not easy to add something after the fact. Easier to subtract. But even that messes up the artwork and that has to be redone. We run out of time in that department as well. It's frustrating to find mistakes or discover that a photo doesn't look as good in print as we thought. It prints too light or too dark or skin tones are wrong... but again, sometimes it's just too late to change.
    We hope to have the chance to put out things we had to pass up like the full versions of Where Do I Go From Here, Early Morning Love or a new full mix of Let Yourself Go or I Don't Want To Be Tied Down. So many ideas and projects, I hope we live long enough!
    We're so happy Funny Girl is finally being released now we're all just waiting for the green light on the next one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I would love for George to pop in right about now. I wonder if there was ever a thought to create a "12 inch" extended stand in version of "Walking" for the LYG set, and if not, is there any chance we might get that in the future.
    i remember chatting with Andy - can't remember though if it was here, on FB or where.

    anyway it was before or maybe around the time they released the LYG set and we were talking about Walking. i believe he said there are additional unreleased versions still in the vault. for instance, the version from Bandstand includes the Walk On/Walk On/Walk On background bit at the end [[similar to what we got in the unreleased alt vocal of Scherrie) but it used Scherrie's released lead vocal. But if you listen closely, her lead parts during the final choruses is different. of course this Bandstand version is longer than the lp or 45 mix so it's possible these lead differences are due to editing.

    Plus this mix included more of Susaye's ad libs and listen closely to her do the "na na na" part just before the bridge/conga drum bit in the middle. There's a great echo/synth effect on her voice at the end of her last Na. not present in the other versions

    my guess is the Hollands and possible Pedro/Mary? were really toying with mixes and edits and cuts to come up with something great. Of course at this time the original Russ Terrana version of the lp was rejected and remixed. so obviously lots was going on in the back in the studios. who knows how many different versions they tried out

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Solomon View Post
    I agree with most everyone that I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking was more than deserving to be a big pop hit from the final years. Most know that the original mix on the High Energy LP was longer than the edit they released. But as stated above, when the song is played out without an edit or fade it runs nearly 5 minutes. Even that would have been a welcome 12" version. For those who have asked about the Greatest Hits & Rare Classics version on the CD. I made that edit in the studio going back to the intro. I was playing "quality control" and thought it was much more commercial that way, plus it gave us something different. I wish I had the time to have extended that version. We played with many ideas for The Final Sessions but after years of waiting for it to happen, we only had limited time in the studio with Kevin. Andy and I do as much work in advance as possible but then sometimes discover new things while we're in the studio. But we simply run out of time. It's like Berry Gordy said of Lady Sings The Blues. It's like we suddenly have to put up a screen that says "The End." [[If anyone doesn't get the reference, I'm sure someone will explain). Also the track list has to be cleared before we even start working and it's really not easy to add something after the fact. Easier to subtract. But even that messes up the artwork and that has to be redone. We run out of time in that department as well. It's frustrating to find mistakes or discover that a photo doesn't look as good in print as we thought. It prints too light or too dark or skin tones are wrong... but again, sometimes it's just too late to change.
    We hope to have the chance to put out things we had to pass up like the full versions of Where Do I Go From Here, Early Morning Love or a new full mix of Let Yourself Go or I Don't Want To Be Tied Down. So many ideas and projects, I hope we live long enough!
    We're so happy Funny Girl is finally being released now we're all just waiting for the green light on the next one!
    thanks George!! great to know the GHARC was a "newer" mix of the song. i agree with that sensational conga line you could really easily extend the song into a mega mix

    You mentioned "new full mix of LYG" are there some other versions or things in the vault with this one? it's truly one of my all time fav Sup songs, regardless of lineup. I know there's the 45 version and then the edited 45 version and the GHARC cassette version. is there more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i'd suggest searching on Youtube for the tracks. the cd on ebay might be wildly expensive. I have a program on my Mac which allows me to download audio or video from Youtube as a file so it's been great when these various vids of the girls come out. or tracking down rare bootleg live performances, etc.

    or i can burn you a copy of the cd and mail it to you
    Thanks for the info Sup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Solomon View Post
    I agree with most everyone that I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking was more than deserving to be a big pop hit from the final years. Most know that the original mix on the High Energy LP was longer than the edit they released. But as stated above, when the song is played out without an edit or fade it runs nearly 5 minutes. Even that would have been a welcome 12" version. For those who have asked about the Greatest Hits & Rare Classics version on the CD. I made that edit in the studio going back to the intro. I was playing "quality control" and thought it was much more commercial that way, plus it gave us something different. I wish I had the time to have extended that version. We played with many ideas for The Final Sessions but after years of waiting for it to happen, we only had limited time in the studio with Kevin. Andy and I do as much work in advance as possible but then sometimes discover new things while we're in the studio. But we simply run out of time. It's like Berry Gordy said of Lady Sings The Blues. It's like we suddenly have to put up a screen that says "The End." [[If anyone doesn't get the reference, I'm sure someone will explain). Also the track list has to be cleared before we even start working and it's really not easy to add something after the fact. Easier to subtract. But even that messes up the artwork and that has to be redone. We run out of time in that department as well. It's frustrating to find mistakes or discover that a photo doesn't look as good in print as we thought. It prints too light or too dark or skin tones are wrong... but again, sometimes it's just too late to change.
    We hope to have the chance to put out things we had to pass up like the full versions of Where Do I Go From Here, Early Morning Love or a new full mix of Let Yourself Go or I Don't Want To Be Tied Down. So many ideas and projects, I hope we live long enough!
    We're so happy Funny Girl is finally being released now we're all just waiting for the green light on the next one!
    George I wish there was a way to catalog this site for easy reference to important information. What you have described here is absolutely "must know" information for us fans, because until your post I didn't realize just HOW MUCH work goes into putting these together. I knew it was hard work somehow, I just never thought about every aspect, many of which you outline here. And I'm sure there's even more. Always good to keep this stuff in mind when we start screaming about the next release. My hat's off to you and Andy and everyone else involved in these packages.

    Just curious, but if it were able to be greenlighted, is there enough material for a We Remember Sam Cooke expanded edition?

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    i still copy and paste a wonderful post by George on the GRARC production process about 2x a year. he basically goes song by song and described what they were working on, trying to do, problems encountered, new discoveries.

    it too is Must Have Reading for any Sup fan

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    Honestly, my comment about Let Yourself Go is based on speculation. We didn't listen to the master tape on that one. But based on all the others that were considerably longer and had multiple vocals, it would have been a great one to explore and do a fresh mix. It was next on our list to mix had we had more time.
    Sam Cooke is one of my favorites and would make a great expanded since nearly every track has an alternate vocal. [[Sorry, no alternate on Ain't That Good News). Same with Liverpool and Country Western & Pop. It would be great to do mono/stereo of those specialty albums along with a full new mix like we did with Funny Girl. We revisit doing those albums all the time. There's just so much we want to do including expanded editions by the other Motown artists. Like everyone else we wish we could pick up the pace.

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    George - can you explain a bit more about "master tape?" with Walking and Wheel, how did the master tape work? is it just they have multiple run throughs with the backing track and then vocal 1, 2, 3, etc? What about when they really remixed and redid the track in a very different way from one another?

    just not as familiar with the technicalities around how each song is on the tape although find it fascinating!

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    I'm not an expert so in the simplest terms... Maybe "master tape" wasn't the right term. I should have said we didn't listen to the multitrack tape of Let Yourself Go. The multi is a tape that hasn't been mixed yet. One track might have the drums, another the piano, another the horns etc. Depending on how many vocal takes, you can have Scherrie vocal 1 on a track, Scherrie vocal 2 on another or Scherrie vocal 3 on another. Another track has only the background vocals. You can isolate any of these tracks and listen to only what is on that track. This tape usually has the song as it was recorded before any edits were made. When mixing the song, you can make the drums louder or softer, put more echo on the voice, bring the background vocals up or down or punch any of these things out altogether. [[Oh boy, this explanation is getting boring even to me. Where are Ralph or Russ when you need them?) We didn't listen to Let Yourself Go in it's most raw form to find out exactly what was on that tape. We don't know what they might have edited out, what vocals or instruments were used or not used or how long the actual song ran. Does this kind of answer the question or is this all stuff you already knew?

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    thanks George!! definitely makes it more clear and no i didn't find it boring at all.

    now i'm more determined than ever to spend whatever remaining quarantine there is inside the vault lolol. I volunteer to just start going through the Sup tapes one after the other!!!

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    Agree, not boring in the slightest. I also enjoy reading about the technical side of recording, editing and mastering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Solomon View Post
    I'm not an expert so in the simplest terms... Maybe "master tape" wasn't the right term. I should have said we didn't listen to the multitrack tape of Let Yourself Go. The multi is a tape that hasn't been mixed yet. One track might have the drums, another the piano, another the horns etc. Depending on how many vocal takes, you can have Scherrie vocal 1 on a track, Scherrie vocal 2 on another or Scherrie vocal 3 on another. Another track has only the background vocals. You can isolate any of these tracks and listen to only what is on that track. This tape usually has the song as it was recorded before any edits were made. When mixing the song, you can make the drums louder or softer, put more echo on the voice, bring the background vocals up or down or punch any of these things out altogether. [[Oh boy, this explanation is getting boring even to me. Where are Ralph or Russ when you need them?) We didn't listen to Let Yourself Go in it's most raw form to find out exactly what was on that tape. We don't know what they might have edited out, what vocals or instruments were used or not used or how long the actual song ran. Does this kind of answer the question or is this all stuff you already knew?
    George - with the LYG set, Susaye's ad libs and bits during Driving Wheel are only on the released album version. is that because the track that she recorded those on is missing and it's now only on the final mixed version on the lp?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    George - with the LYG set, Susaye's ad libs and bits during Driving Wheel are only on the released album version. is that because the track that she recorded those on is missing and it's now only on the final mixed version on the lp?
    That was a mystery to us. Susaye's ad-libs weren't on the multitrack tape so we weren't able to use her on the remix. Notice they didn't have her on the promo single back in 1976 either. Again, someone much more in the know about these things could probably answer better than I can. Perhaps she added her vocal to an already completed LP mix?
    We have found other cases like this. Notice on the mono/LP & single of Where Did Our Love Go, there are extra handclaps on every second and fourth beat of the song giving the mono mix a bit more punch. Those claps don't exist on the multitrack tape and they aren't on the stereo mix.

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    thanks George! now i'm going to have to go back and re-listen to the two Where's lol

    over the years on here, us fans have tried listing out all of the variants and differences out there on the songs. One i like is the mono version of This Old Heart. the tambourine doesn't enter until the 2nd half of the intro and WOW - adds a real punch. But i like the fact that the vocals are always higher in the mix in the stereo. so Id love a mash up of the two lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i still copy and paste a wonderful post by George on the GRARC production process about 2x a year. he basically goes song by song and described what they were working on, trying to do, problems encountered, new discoveries.

    it too is Must Have Reading for any Sup fan
    Agreed. That is definitely an interesting read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Solomon View Post
    .
    Sam Cooke is one of my favorites and would make a great expanded since nearly every track has an alternate vocal. [[Sorry, no alternate on Ain't That Good News).
    Well that's...um...good news, and bad news. Hopefully the alternates will see the light of day at some point. I guess Flo knocked "Good News" out the box in one take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Solomon View Post
    I agree with most everyone that I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking was more than deserving to be a big pop hit from the final years. Most know that the original mix on the High Energy LP was longer than the edit they released. But as stated above, when the song is played out without an edit or fade it runs nearly 5 minutes. Even that would have been a welcome 12" version. For those who have asked about the Greatest Hits & Rare Classics version on the CD. I made that edit in the studio going back to the intro. I was playing "quality control" and thought it was much more commercial that way, plus it gave us something different. George, is that the version I've linked below, or--- is what I've linked the original longer version as found in the can, untouched by anyone including you?? I wish I had the time to have extended that version. We played with many ideas for The Final Sessions but after years of waiting for it to happen, we only had limited time in the studio with Kevin. Andy and I do as much work in advance as possible but then sometimes discover new things while we're in the studio. But we simply run out of time. It's like Berry Gordy said of Lady Sings The Blues. It's like we suddenly have to put up a screen that says "The End." [[If anyone doesn't get the reference, I'm sure someone will explain). Also the track list has to be cleared before we even start working and it's really not easy to add something after the fact. Easier to subtract. But even that messes up the artwork and that has to be redone. We run out of time in that department as well. It's frustrating to find mistakes or discover that a photo doesn't look as good in print as we thought. It prints too light or too dark or skin tones are wrong... but again, sometimes it's just too late to change.
    We hope to have the chance to put out things we had to pass up like the full versions of Where Do I Go From Here, Early Morning Love or a new full mix of Let Yourself Go or I Don't Want To Be Tied Down. So many ideas and projects, I hope we live long enough!
    We're so happy Funny Girl is finally being released now we're all just waiting for the green light on the next one!

    If I am understanding the situation correctly, there existed a longer length for IGLMHDTW , but it wasn't tapped into. The same whittled down 3:33 single version was all that was made available and it was what appeared on both the 45 and the LP. In the summer of 1976, that 3:33 version was commercially it for the buying public , and only it was promo-ed to DJs.

    Now, H&H did an excellent job of fine tuning IGLMHDTW into a tight single from a dense blend of instruments and voices. I would call the edited single flawless. That was a masterful forte of HDH , their ability to lay out a concise radio friendly single. I can't think of an example of them applying a stretch approach [[ ala Norman Whitfield ) to any of their producing.[[?)

    Still, just off the heels of Diana's LOVE HANGOVER , if The Holland's could be forgiven their ignorance, , hadn't Motown learned anything? They didn't noticed that having a longer version of LH , available only on her album, increased the snot out of its sales ???
    They didn't notice that by having a longer version of LH provided to the disco DJ's that it got the snot played out of it in the clubs ???.


    WHAT A WASTE that this remained buried :



    "walk on, walk on, walk on, with your bad self" lol!

    that's a phrase that never made it onto a popular song that I can come up with ...??? .
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 09-06-2020 at 06:57 PM.

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    the Hollands did several lengthy tracks with the supremes:

    HE was 5 mins 25 sec
    the Boat/Lose You medley was 8:03
    Sweet Dream Machine 5:22
    Love I never knew 5:51

    While none are as long as Love Hangover, they are pretty long. Hangover was really like 2 songs in one - the slow seductive part and then the dance track as opposed to one mega-long song like Donna Summer's Love To Love Ya. And keep in mind, Love To Love was only released in Nov 75 and topped out in Fed 76. so literally just days prior to Dr 76 album being released. this was totally new ground - having a 16 minute nonstop orgasmic dance track!! totally revolutionary.

    In the booklet for LYG set, Andy mentions that the unedited track for Love I Never Knew was over 9 minutes. and it has the highest beats/min of any of their dance tracks. Mary even mentions that after Walking hit, the Hollands decided to immediately work on the MS&S tracks and they amped up the dance beats, vocals and bass. IMO it sounds like with Walking, everyone thought "ah ha! now we have a sound and style for the supremes." just like when Gordy pulled HDH from all other projects after WDOLG hit and had them focus on this new sound, in 76 they did it again.

    This lines up with the data we have on the recording dates and chart dates too

    Walking was recorded in early 76 - Scherrie did lead recordings on Jan 7 and Feb 19. Susaye then did her lead on Feb 20. It was released on March 16.

    4/24 - you finally get Walking appearing on some local charts. Then in May, June and July it's tearing up the disco charts. it didn't enter the Billboard Pop charts until May 29 and peaked there on Aug 7.

    there seems to be limited data on the recording dates for MS&S. But group vocals for Love I Never Knew were recorded on July 30, You Are Heart was done a few days before. They state that the sessions, mixing and all ran from late June until October

    So seems like they didn't bother to go back and work more on Walking but rather they invested their time and efforts into new material

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the Hollands did several lengthy tracks with the supremes:

    HE was 5 mins 25 sec
    the Boat/Lose You medley was 8:03
    Sweet Dream Machine 5:22
    Love I never knew 5:51

    While none are as long as Love Hangover, they are pretty long. Hangover was really like 2 songs in one - the slow seductive part and then the dance track as opposed to one mega-long song like Donna Summer's Love To Love Ya. And keep in mind, Love To Love was only released in Nov 75 and topped out in Fed 76. so literally just days prior to Dr 76 album being released. this was totally new ground - having a 16 minute nonstop orgasmic dance track!! totally revolutionary.

    In the booklet for LYG set, Andy mentions that the unedited track for Love I Never Knew was over 9 minutes. and it has the highest beats/min of any of their dance tracks. Mary even mentions that after Walking hit, the Hollands decided to immediately work on the MS&S tracks and they amped up the dance beats, vocals and bass. IMO it sounds like with Walking, everyone thought "ah ha! now we have a sound and style for the supremes." just like when Gordy pulled HDH from all other projects after WDOLG hit and had them focus on this new sound, in 76 they did it again.

    This lines up with the data we have on the recording dates and chart dates too

    Walking was recorded in early 76 - Scherrie did lead recordings on Jan 7 and Feb 19. Susaye then did her lead on Feb 20. It was released on March 16.

    4/24 - you finally get Walking appearing on some local charts. Then in May, June and July it's tearing up the disco charts. it didn't enter the Billboard Pop charts until May 29 and peaked there on Aug 7.

    there seems to be limited data on the recording dates for MS&S. But group vocals for Love I Never Knew were recorded on July 30, You Are Heart was done a few days before. They state that the sessions, mixing and all ran from late June until October

    So seems like they didn't bother to go back and work more on Walking but rather they invested their time and efforts into new material
    I've been wanting to get back to this and thank you Sup, because your explanation and the timeline you provide sort of opened my eyes for a better understanding of what was going on here.
    As I mentioned earlier , it sort of puzzled me how poorly IGLMHDTW did, especially considering that it was a rather monumental re-pairing of two Motown legacies.... HDH and The Supremes. [[I mean if as the responsible record label, you don't put full force behind THAT!!...?)

    But now I think it likely that HDH had sort of found their stride with The Supremes with THE HIGH ENERGY project and were now were intent on kicking it up a notch with the follow-up album.
    IOW, they liked the results , the whole disco thing, and now were going to kill it with the second round.
    By the time IGLMHDTW was hitting full potential, they were already on to the follow up project, and probably weren't concerned because the new music was going to be even better.

    But by losing sight of the current release, it suffered, faltering on the Top 40. I suspect Motown interpreted that as meaning the reunion match-up wasn't as good as had been hoped , and then backed off on a bigger effort to support the MS&S lp. [[viewed as a second helping of the same).
    Too bad , because that LP was even more popular in the clubs than HIGH ENERGY , showing the potential was there if properly worked, Motown didn't apply enough effort and so they failed to translate that well received club reception into an across the board success.

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    my guess is that motown was caught a bit off guard with Walking. it too SO long to do anything. and in the meantime Love Hangover was everywhere. I know some fans have stated on here that Scherrie told them while visiting some djs and radio stations, they supposedly literally heard from another motown exec to pull Walking and push Hangover. i don't know the validity or details around but the dates clearly show the timeline.

    Walking and Hangover were both released as 45s on the exact same day. talk about poor timing! lol while LH was a mega hit, it was mostly off the dance charts by the time Walking really started to take off. I don't know why or how Walking didn't simply get lost in the shuffle. certainly other great songs before it did. but somehow it hung on there. and based on the NYC store data and the various regional disco charts, Walking was a smash. I haven't gone through the chart data on LH as in-depth but will probably do that. good to compare

    Tons of big disco hits did NOT cross over. this was over a year prior to Sat Night Fever and while disco was becoming more mainstream, it wasn't taking over Top 40 like it would later.

    I do agree that it appears that the Hollands jumped on the opportunity to do something more/bigger/better with new music rather than continue to explore the hit potentials on the HE lp. lots of fans like You're What's Missing or Teardrops. Even HE and Only You were solid tunes. but none really have the sound or spark like Walking. so IMO the Hollands decided to jump on the chance for new tunes

    as for why then the bubble was burst - my guess is 1) the intergroup problems and fighting and 2) motown wanted to manage the group.

    with 0 promotion, Walking did quite well and the HE lp sold very respectably. there was now a sound and approach that had been proven to work. motown probably said we want to manage this situation, get that ignorant Pedro out of here and lets get the group back to some level of profitability. when mary and pedro didn't go for the motown management, motown probably said "ok and fuck you too"

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    well you are still giving me things to ponder !! I did not know that IGLMHDTW and LH were released as singles on the exact same day.

    How bizarre is that?? Why in the world would Motown do that? Pitting the two against each other does not seem like a sound plan .....likely one is going to be the 'loser' in this competition for airplay .

    not good, hmmm, UNLESS that is :

    Motown had carried it further, cleverly promoting the two in unison in trade ads [[in Billboard within the disco pages) , as in: " at last, together again: DIANA ROSS ... AND THE SUPREMES!!"

    ...
    and then simultaneously had coyly shipped out a shared 12" to the record pools with LH on one side and [[the longest existing version of) IGLMHDTW on the other !

    Now that would have been the kind of genius event that would still to this day be legendary !

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    i think the problem was the 5th Dimension releasing their own version of LH. Diana had released I thought it took a little time in late Feb. So it staggered to begin with. Diana in Feb and Sups in March. and clearly totally different content. but blame it on the 5D lol

    but i'll say it again. I don't think Walking and LH releasing on the same day frankly had that much impact. guessing here but maybe it had the OPPOSITE effect. the Sup material on Sup 75 only made modest impact on the disco charts. but there was a lot of other material hitting the dance floors at this time - Casablanca was becoming super hot as they had released Donna's Love To Love You in the summer of 75. so motown wasn't really a disco label. Then suddenly you have this amazing LH and then the black and gay discos [[which both typically supported the Supremes) discovered Walking and it went all over the dance charts

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i think the problem was the 5th Dimension releasing their own version of LH. Diana had released I thought it took a little time in late Feb. So it staggered to begin with. Diana in Feb and Sups in March. and clearly totally different content. but blame it on the 5D lol lol

    but i'll say it again. I don't think Walking and LH releasing on the same day frankly had that much impact. guessing here but maybe it had the OPPOSITE effect. the Sup material on Sup 75 only made modest impact on the disco charts. but there was a lot of other material hitting the dance floors at this time - Casablanca was becoming super hot as they had released Donna's Love To Love You in the summer of 75. so motown wasn't really a disco label. Then suddenly you have this amazing LH and then the black and gay discos [[which both typically supported the Supremes) discovered Walking and it went all over the dance charts
    I'm enjoying sorting this out with you Sup. You have good instincts. I've still some confusion. Was Sup '75 pre any Billboard disco reporting ? [[ OCT. '74) I don't see it listed at all in Whitburn's disco book . Yet there's this in wiki:

    Despite the long delay, The Supremes' first single, "He's My Man", became a #1 single on the Billboard Disco charts in 1975
    --- wiki
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 09-24-2020 at 04:24 PM.

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    now i'm definitely not an expert on the how billboard charts are established and the criteria and all. nor when they introduced new charts

    by the time of HMM and Sup 75, Billboard was doing a section called Disco, just like they did sections on C&W, Classical, etc. It was only a few pages and included news and whatnot. during this time, they included a handful of NYC charts. There was one called Audience Response NYC [[which i'm assuming was somehow gathered from djs and clubs) plus several key area record stores. like Melody Song Shops Brooklyn, LI and Queens or Colony Records NYC. They would also include a few other markets and these sometimes changes. Usually there was the LA/San Diego Audience response. also sometimes Boston, DC, Toronto.

    Then in Sept 75 it seemed to change. They now published a National Top 40 plus they were listing out 12 or so big market Audience Responses - Atlanta, Balt/DC, Dallas, Phoenix, Miami, NYC, Boston, LA, etc. For the most part, these remained consistent but sometimes there was a change or two.

    So i tracked the info from spring 75 [[just prior to Sup 75 release) and through early winter 77, once Let Yourself Go and Wheel dropped off the charts. What happened with the charts post LYG, i don't really know

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    I think it may have been #1 in one market and fans have run with that, now its claimed it was #1 on the disco chart, although after all these years, I’ve yet to see proof.

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    i think in the #1 cd, in the liner notes, they list some other songs that went #1 for Sups and/or DR. or were #1 on other charts. I do believe they list HMM as a regional #1 there. And i'm not sure how they calculated the national charts starting in Sept 76 or how much each city or region factored into the calculation.

    i don't discount the ranking of HMM in that it was a #1 regional hit in NYC which really was sort of the epicenter of disco. 75 was early in disco and it's development and shift into the mainstream

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    now i'm definitely not an expert on the how billboard charts are established and the criteria and all. nor when they introduced new charts

    by the time of HMM and Sup 75, Billboard was doing a section called Disco, just like they did sections on C&W, Classical, etc. It was only a few pages and included news and whatnot. during this time, they included a handful of NYC charts. There was one called Audience Response NYC [[which i'm assuming was somehow gathered from djs and clubs) plus several key area record stores. like Melody Song Shops Brooklyn, LI and Queens or Colony Records NYC. They would also include a few other markets and these sometimes changes. Usually there was the LA/San Diego Audience response. also sometimes Boston, DC, Toronto.

    Then in Sept 75 it seemed to change. [[AUGUST 26, 1976) They now published a National Top 40 plus they were listing out 12 or so big market Audience Responses - Atlanta, Balt/DC, Dallas, Phoenix, Miami, NYC, Boston, LA, etc. For the most part, these remained consistent but sometimes there was a change or two.

    So i tracked the info from spring 75 [[just prior to Sup 75 release) and through early winter 77, once Let Yourself Go and Wheel dropped off the charts. What happened with the charts post LYG, i don't really know
    khansperac
    I think it may have been #1 in one market and fans have run with that, now its claimed it was #1 on the disco chart, although after all these years, I’ve yet to see proof.
    So since I have some spare time, [[ as if lol!) I traced some Billboard disco action until I found this :

    Melody Song Shops [[Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island) Retail Sales This Week

    I HE'S MY MAN /WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE -The Supremes- Motown [[LP)
    2 BRAZIL -Richie Family -20th Century
    3
    NON -STOP -B.T. Express [[LP)- Roadshow
    4 CHECKMATE -Barrabas -Atco [[LP)
    5 LOVE POWER -Willie Hutch - Motown [[LP)
    6 DO IT ANYWAY YOU WANNA -People's Choice -TSOP
    7 LADY, YOU'RE LADY- Boogie Man Orch.- Boogie Man Records
    8 WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG AND IN LOVE - Ralph Carter- Mercury
    9
    CHINESE KUNG FU- Banzaii- Scepter
    10 DISCO GOLD
    [[LP)- Scepter
    11 I LIKE IT- Silver Convention -Midland In- ternational [[LP)
    12
    WHAT A DIFFERENCE [[ANYTHING DAY MAKES)- Esther Philips -Kudu [[LP)
    13 CALL ME YOUR [[ANYTHING MAN) -Bobby Moore -Scepter
    14 DANCE, DANCE, DANCE- Calhoun- Warner /Spector
    15
    FOREVER CAME TODAY- Jackson Five- Motown

    don't ask me the exact date , I failed to note it , sometime in June '75 I think.

    One thing: Somebody at Melody Song Shops loved their Supremes ! They get mentioned for weeks.
    [[I haven't found these songs listed any where else yet )


    [[WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE is an HDH song)

    Just because , here's :

    >

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    Melody Shop absolutely DID love the girls!! lol that's the only chart that any of Sup 75 appears on. Colony Records - nope, Downstairs Records NYC - nope. none o the audience responses

    now that changes with Walking

    Melody is, again, all of them and Walking charts long and hit. but it also appears on Colony, lots of the various city Audience Response and it even appears a bit on Downstairs for a few weeks

    once they started the National charts and the expanded city lists, they stopped reporting the stores.

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    Melody also listed a lot of the separate Sup 75 songs.

    one week This Is Why was #1 at Melody! that was June 28.

    Where do i go from here charted at #3 on Melody on July 26

    HMM/WDIGFH were a combined #1 listing on 8/2

    Color My World Blue when to #9

    WDIGFH appears again in Sept and peaks at #7

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    I have to admit this is one of the flimsy things about those early disco reports [[or is it a part of their bare-knuckles charm?) , the idea of a record store reporting what cuts on the album are the reason for its sales. [[With one week it being WDIGFH , the next , CMW etc.)

    As if , as they are selling their records , they are continuously asking the customers, what disco cuts are you buying this album for? .....
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 09-25-2020 at 01:27 PM.

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    yeah i'm not sure how that worked. is it based on what djs were buying and playing and therefore what people were asking for in the store?

    i know they would sometimes just list the album, especially on Audience Response. This means that the dj was using many or all of the tracks from the lp. The Boss was listed this way as were many of the Donna Summer albums.

    none of Sup 75 is listed this way

    but HE album is for 1 week in May 76 from Melody Shops

    and MSS was listed for 1 week in the NY Audience Response on 11/27/76

    i don't know if for other artists the full albums ran lots of weeks like the songs did. i've not looked into it. Don't know if Once Upon A Time or Four Seasons of Love were listed for weeks or one week.

    also not sure when they started listing "All Tracks" on the various regional charts. when they started doing that

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    It was complicated , sorting out which album cuts were actually doing well in clubs, and then trying to list them in a representative way. When Billboard split credits for two cuts , someone might get the likely wrong idea that these two cuts were equally popular, when really the one song was the monster , and the other one , eh , not so much.
    "All cuts" was seldom true , as many albums also had songs that were ballads or not disco. But "all cuts" was easier dictation than listing say four songs out of seven, or in the cases of one region reporting two titles , another region listing two others , etc.. "all cuts" covers it !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    It was complicated , sorting out which album cuts were actually doing well in clubs, and then trying to list them in a representative way. When Billboard split credits for two cuts , someone might get the likely wrong idea that these two cuts were equally popular, when really the one song was the monster , and the other one , eh , not so much.
    "All cuts" was seldom true , as many albums also had songs that were ballads or not disco. But "all cuts" was easier dictation than listing say four songs out of seven, or in the cases of one region reporting two titles , another region listing two others , etc.. "all cuts" covers it !
    exactly - that's how i've interpreted it too. djs were using many of the songs on the album. 3, 4 or more so it was easier to just list the album vs all of those song titles. Billboard wouldn't have allowed them to do that anyway from a publication stand point. would have fucked up the page layouts and spacing too much

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah i'm not sure how that worked. is it based on what djs were buying and playing and therefore what people were asking for in the store?

    i know they would sometimes just list the album, especially on Audience Response. This means that the dj was using many or all of the tracks from the lp. The Boss was listed this way as were many of the Donna Summer albums.

    none of Sup 75 is listed this way

    but HE album is for 1 week in May 76 from Melody Shops

    and MSS was listed for 1 week in the NY Audience Response on 11/27/76

    i don't know if for other artists the full albums ran lots of weeks like the songs did. i've not looked into it. Don't know if Once Upon A Time or Four Seasons of Love were listed for weeks or one week.

    also not sure when they started listing "All Tracks" on the various regional charts. when they started doing that
    I'm glad you mentioned finding this, I hadn't found HIGH ENERGY mentioned at all.

    .....which is why I find it a serious error that Whitburn's disco book reports it as having charted for four weeks , peaking at #9
    as a separate entity from IGLMHDTW.

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    This is all just based on my understanding of how these charts worked or what i've read on here. it would great if an older fan that worked in the industry or was connected to it and had more insight could confirm or help explain

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