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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    In the book, Diana wrote that it actually got to the point that she couldn't stand the smell of food and when she tried to eat, her jaws would clamp down. She went on to say that she enjoyed working the Apollo because nearby was a steak house where they had steak sandwiches and baked potatoes, one of the few meals she enjoyed.
    Yeah I remember hearing that when I played the audio book. Again, no one knows the pain and struggles Diana and all of those artists went through back in the day. I would also think the stress of being treated like second class citizens also affected her [[though she hardly mentions it at times but we know she was from the few times she did discuss racism).

  2. #152
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    I am sure that there are things we will never know. For all we know many of them may have tried to help Flo to no avail. I watched a video of the Motown picnic in 74 and I was wondering...did anyone go see about her or did they not care? But who knows. Her family doesnt seem to even reference her much and I mean her siblings who are remaining and nieces/nephews. We really dont know what they went through with her. Her own mother said to her she didnt understand why she sat around wasting her time and talent and told her to do some commercials. People may have just been plain tired of dealing with her. Which is sad still.

  3. #153
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    There was an interview with Mary in recent years where she said herself, Berry and Diana all tried to help Flo at various points. Flo had the goods, she just lacked the motivation due to her personal issues. Its sad, as a huge Flo fan I feel she could have had a much bigger career had she just applied herself. I see it in the early clips of the Supremes. She had the charisma but it vanished after 1965 or so.

  4. #154
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    Truth be told there were a lot of folks that could have helped Flo but no one knew what to do or say. Today medically they say its depression and in my opinion I just dont think Flo liked traveling and was more family oriented. Also, it's been so long but I remember hearing from Flo's own words that she didn't really want to be at Motown from the beginning. Actually, I thought Flo's sister Maxine would finally shed some light on this but she really didn't give any answers so I still feel Flo had her own demons to deal with.

    A lot of folks will say that Diana was going to use the Supremes as her launching pad to stardom but truth be told Berry was going to make Diana his "Motown" star with or without the Supremes.

  5. #155
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    Flo was a good singer. Just like there were 1000's of other good singers in the late 1960's. I'm sure it was no secret that Flo could be "difficult"; missing appearances, missing recording dates.

    There's no surprise really that Flo didn't become "the next Aretha".

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Flo was a good singer. Just like there were 1000's of other good singers in the late 1960's. I'm sure it was no secret that Flo could be "difficult"; missing appearances, missing recording dates.

    There's no surprise really that Flo didn't become "the next Aretha".
    Florence was indeed a good singer, but was she a "Motown" singer? Looking at all the great female singers signed to Motown during the 1960's did Florence have a distinctive enough voice to break thru?

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    Florence was indeed a good singer, but was she a "Motown" singer? Looking at all the great female singers signed to Motown during the 1960's did Florence have a distinctive enough voice to break thru?
    Not in my opinion. She had a big voice and a loud voice but there was nothing there that ever made me think she had the potential to become a major solo star.

  8. #158
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    I agree Satan and Blue. It's no disrespect to Florence whatsoever. She made up 1/3 of the worlds greatest female trio. But there was nothing distinctive about her voice that leads me to believe she could have been a major superstar. Her solo album is proof. She might have carved out a nice niche the way artists like Barbara Randolph, Bettye LaVette, and Kim Weston did. Sung a few Motown hits, a Supremes medley, a couple current hits. Would have definitely made a nice career.

    Unfortunately the same can be said about Mary. Mary has a nice voice. But again, there's 1000 singers that sound just like her. Mary lucked out because she inherited the Supremes legacy. It's interesting to think what her career might look like if Flo had lived. She wouldn't be the sole keeper of the flame.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I agree Satan and Blue. It's no disrespect to Florence whatsoever. She made up 1/3 of the worlds greatest female trio. But there was nothing distinctive about her voice that leads me to believe she could have been a major superstar. Her solo album is proof. She might have carved out a nice niche the way artists like Barbara Randolph, Bettye LaVette, and Kim Weston did. Sung a few Motown hits, a Supremes medley, a couple current hits. Would have definitely made a nice career.

    Unfortunately the same can be said about Mary. Mary has a nice voice. But again, there's 1000 singers that sound just like her. Mary lucked out because she inherited the Supremes legacy. It's interesting to think what her career might look like if Flo had lived. She wouldn't be the sole keeper of the flame.
    I also totally agree with you in regards to Mary. She was a stunningly beautiful woman who had the potential to be a model or even a film star, but successful solo singer? Forget it. She quite simply did not have the chops.
    You raise a fascinating point regarding Flo. Had she lived there is every chance she would have toured with Mary or even been in direct competition with her in keeping the Supremes legacy alive. It is something i have never previously considered.

  10. #160
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    while i don't think either F or M were really suited for pop singing, i do think there was potential there. Diana certainly evolved CONSIDERABLY from her early work. had that same testing and studio experimenting been offered to the other two, it's possible there could have been real strengths in other music fields.

    F definitely had a big voice. she needed to learn more vocal control though with pitch. we've all mentioned many times what a wonderful track Good News is. i also absolutely love her short line on Breathtaking Guy. Not sure why that sound was never really found that way again. it's such a lovely soft and delicate way of singing. not as forced or as sometime pinched as her vocals could be. again - what an interesting path that could have been

    I've struggle with more of Mary's leads, tending to find them rather monotonous and bland. Falling in Love is one of her better but it's the duet concept and then the full trio that makes the song shine. had it been 100% mary, it would have been too bland. that is until the released her version of The Christmas Story. even though they edited it as a duet, i find Mary's lead on this track to be, frankly, among her best as a Supreme. I would have loved to see them take time with the CW&P songs and experiment more with mary. and not as a rushed job either. There are other moments - Teardrops from the HE album, her headvoice vocals on the end of I Keep It Hid. She needed to work and develop it. but there's definitely a jazz voice in there, waiting

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    while i don't think either F or M were really suited for pop singing, i do think there was potential there. Diana certainly evolved CONSIDERABLY from her early work. had that same testing and studio experimenting been offered to the other two, it's possible there could have been real strengths in other music fields.

    F definitely had a big voice. she needed to learn more vocal control though with pitch. we've all mentioned many times what a wonderful track Good News is. i also absolutely love her short line on Breathtaking Guy. Not sure why that sound was never really found that way again. it's such a lovely soft and delicate way of singing. not as forced or as sometime pinched as her vocals could be. again - what an interesting path that could have been

    I've struggle with more of Mary's leads, tending to find them rather monotonous and bland. Falling in Love is one of her better but it's the duet concept and then the full trio that makes the song shine. had it been 100% mary, it would have been too bland. that is until the released her version of The Christmas Story. even though they edited it as a duet, i find Mary's lead on this track to be, frankly, among her best as a Supreme. I would have loved to see them take time with the CW&P songs and experiment more with mary. and not as a rushed job either. There are other moments - Teardrops from the HE album, her headvoice vocals on the end of I Keep It Hid. She needed to work and develop it. but there's definitely a jazz voice in there, waiting
    Those are well chosen words to describe Mary's lead vocals - monotonous and bland. The odd lead here and there is fine but i would hate to sit through a full albums worth. A little goes a long way

  12. #162
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    her solo work with Gus Dungeon really did shine. all four tunes are very strong and i don't know if she ever sounded better [[before or since). it would be interesting to hear what a whole album would have sounded like, with him at the helm.

  13. #163
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    Occasionally and for a change, Mary's vocals were nice - I Keep It Hid, some of those from High Energy, even Can't Take My Eyes Off You.

    But ultimately, Mary's voice is like "one of a million girls" as they say in Floy Joy. It didn't have a lot of flexibility or range, it didn't often catch a lot of attention. If she tended toward Tina Turner, it certainly was no where near as strong.

    This must be part of the reason that producers did not flock to work with her nor were any hits produced.

  14. #164
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    Mary had some nice solo and duet [[with Cindy) moments in the Irving Berlin Medley. On the Tarzan show, she all but had the lead in the opening version of Michael Row The Boat Ashore, and she held her own; Cindy and Diana were barely audible and seemed unnecessary. Also, I enjoyed some of her leads in the '70s groupings, especially the ballads, whether on records or on stage [[Quiet Nights, for instance). During her late 1970s-early 1980s, her personality and beauty helped her sell her solo show interpretations, and some of the songs from her first and only Motown album sounded fresh, not frenetic, when performed with a small backup band. But she had some less than stellar moments, too, such as the not-yet-released Son Of A Preacher Man; the idea of that one may have seemed good on paper, but she aped Dusty poorly and added nothing new or exciting to make the song hers. Too, as has been mentioned on this site before, when Mary offers her versions of Love Child or other 1964-1969 hits, many of us wince a bit, as it was Diana's leads that made the songs memorable. Mary's had a challenging predicament, riding on her distant past and trying to create something new, and while she has done okay, despite the ill-advised second-rate, dated disco tunes, the times were changing by the late 1970s, and the nightclubs/jazz clubs where she might have had a chance to become a star in her own right disappeared, along with what may have been a lucrative avenue for her.

  15. #165
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    As per Son of a Preachers man it sounds like it was her first vocal run. . It’s kinda hard to judge an unfinished version.
    Quote Originally Posted by benross View Post
    Mary had some nice solo and duet [[with Cindy) moments in the Irving Berlin Medley. On the Tarzan show, she all but had the lead in the opening version of Michael Row The Boat Ashore, and she held her own; Cindy and Diana were barely audible and seemed unnecessary. Also, I enjoyed some of her leads in the '70s groupings, especially the ballads, whether on records or on stage [[Quiet Nights, for instance). During her late 1970s-early 1980s, her personality and beauty helped her sell her solo show interpretations, and some of the songs from her first and only Motown album sounded fresh, not frenetic, when performed with a small backup band. But she had some less than stellar moments, too, such as the not-yet-released Son Of A Preacher Man; the idea of that one may have seemed good on paper, but she aped Dusty poorly and added nothing new or exciting to make the song hers. Too, as has been mentioned on this site before, when Mary offers her versions of Love Child or other 1964-1969 hits, many of us wince a bit, as it was Diana's leads that made the songs memorable. Mary's had a challenging predicament, riding on her distant past and trying to create something new, and while she has done okay, despite the ill-advised second-rate, dated disco tunes, the times were changing by the late 1970s, and the nightclubs/jazz clubs where she might have had a chance to become a star in her own right disappeared, along with what may have been a lucrative avenue for her.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    As per Son of a Preachers man it sounds like it was her first vocal run. . It’s kinda hard to judge an unfinished version.
    We can only pass judgement on the version we have heard.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by benross View Post
    Mary had some nice solo and duet [[with Cindy) moments in the Irving Berlin Medley. On the Tarzan show, she all but had the lead in the opening version of Michael Row The Boat Ashore, and she held her own; Cindy and Diana were barely audible and seemed unnecessary. Also, I enjoyed some of her leads in the '70s groupings, especially the ballads, whether on records or on stage [[Quiet Nights, for instance). During her late 1970s-early 1980s, her personality and beauty helped her sell her solo show interpretations, and some of the songs from her first and only Motown album sounded fresh, not frenetic, when performed with a small backup band. But she had some less than stellar moments, too, such as the not-yet-released Son Of A Preacher Man; the idea of that one may have seemed good on paper, but she aped Dusty poorly and added nothing new or exciting to make the song hers. Too, as has been mentioned on this site before, when Mary offers her versions of Love Child or other 1964-1969 hits, many of us wince a bit, as it was Diana's leads that made the songs memorable. Mary's had a challenging predicament, riding on her distant past and trying to create something new, and while she has done okay, despite the ill-advised second-rate, dated disco tunes, the times were changing by the late 1970s, and the nightclubs/jazz clubs where she might have had a chance to become a star in her own right disappeared, along with what may have been a lucrative avenue for her.
    Excellent summary ben.

  18. #168
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    And it clearly sounds like it was no where near finished
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    We can only pass judgement on the version we have heard.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballardfan67 View Post
    I am sure that there are things we will never know. For all we know many of them may have tried to help Flo to no avail. I watched a video of the Motown picnic in 74 and I was wondering...did anyone go see about her or did they not care? But who knows. Her family doesnt seem to even reference her much and I mean her siblings who are remaining and nieces/nephews. We really dont know what they went through with her. Her own mother said to her she didnt understand why she sat around wasting her time and talent and told her to do some commercials. People may have just been plain tired of dealing with her. Which is sad still.
    i'm sure there were some motown people that kept in touch with her but think of it as a "normal" job here and today. if you work in an office building as part of a team and one of those teammates is fired, what would be your ongoing interaction? maybe if you were very close you would keep in touch. but much of the staff only worked here and there with the girls. and some might not have had a close or positive relationship with her. and by 74, as many years had passed since she left the group as she had been in the group! lol

  20. #170
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    Mary's studio recordings in the 60s were fine but not memorable. Just the fact that she so rarely did a lead, doesn't make it special. other than the rarity of it

    her voice has a lovely tone and quality to it. it's just that she doesn't offer much variety and there really aren't many peaks/valleys. her approach to most of the songs is very similar and monotonous. on the opposite end of the spectrum was Diana who had so much character and inflection in her voice. On Come Get These Memories, it's a perfectly acceptable recording. but it's like a fan of MRATV won a singing competition and got to wax a record. kind of like girl Christine Schumacher that won a radio contest to sing and record a version of Mother You, Smother You.

    now in contrast to this is Mary live. Listen to how playful and sexy she is on Enjoy Yourself when she sings "when they write your epitaph" You can just see her up there, working the stage, giving a "knowing" look and playing with the audience.

    or listen to her brief leads on Christmas Song. a much more engaged and passionate lead. i adore towards the ending and how she sings and caresses the lyrics of "Merry Christmas" at 1:42. stunning

    so she had the goods. and she certainly improved over the years. while i find many of her Jean era leads boring too, she did shine on some of the Scherrie era tracks. You Turn Me Around, her leads on HE and MSS.

    i don't know why it didn't seem to always come through in the studio. it certainly is possible that her forte was the stage where she could draw that inspiration from the audience. don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    And it clearly sounds like it was no where near finished
    I agree it does sound rather dire, but until we hear a better vocal take we have to judge it on it's own "merits". If a better take on the song surfaces we shall judge that on it's own merits too, but until that time we are left with this particular attempt only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i'm sure there were some motown people that kept in touch with her but think of it as a "normal" job here and today. if you work in an office building as part of a team and one of those teammates is fired, what would be your ongoing interaction? maybe if you were very close you would keep in touch. but much of the staff only worked here and there with the girls. and some might not have had a close or positive relationship with her. and by 74, as many years had passed since she left the group as she had been in the group! lol
    You state perfectly about the 'normal job', as I have always said. I'm sure not each-and-every past member of each-and-every Motown group was forever foremost in the minds of every Motown staffer and new group. Life moves on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    You state perfectly about the 'normal job', as I have always said. I'm sure not each-and-every past member of each-and-every Motown group was forever foremost in the minds of every Motown staffer and new group. Life moves on.
    as superfans, we can to aggrandize the whole Motown experience. there's a lot of personal feelings for us tied to the music but we forget that it was really just a job, albeit perhaps a fun one, for many of the general employees at Motown. at the end of the day, they worked, earned a pay check ,paid their morgages and bills and lived life. yes they might have interacted with superstars so that's a bit out of the ordinary. but they're still just average joes

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    As with most unreleased material I take it with a grain of salt knowing it wasn’t finished so I won’t be critical of the recording. They’re plenty of released material from all of the ladies that could use a few more vocal attempts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    I agree it does sound rather dire, but until we hear a better vocal take we have to judge it on it's own "merits". If a better take on the song surfaces we shall judge that on it's own merits too, but until that time we are left with this particular attempt only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    As with most unreleased material I take it with a grain of salt knowing it wasn’t finished so I won’t be critical of the recording. They’re plenty of released material from all of the ladies that could use a few more vocal attempts.
    i do agree - I question how "finished" some other tunes were. like Over The Rainbow. And of course some of the Xmas stuff like Flo's leads, Mary's lead [[we've only got part of it), Diana's Silent Night.

    frankly i don't mind hearing the unfinished things and i wouldn't give harsh critique to a practice or initial vocal. they're most likely not singing at "full performance" level. maybe they're just experimenting. etc.

  26. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i do agree - I question how "finished" some other tunes were. like Over The Rainbow. And of course some of the Xmas stuff like Flo's leads, Mary's lead [[we've only got part of it), Diana's Silent Night.

    frankly i don't mind hearing the unfinished things and i wouldn't give harsh critique to a practice or initial vocal. they're most likely not singing at "full performance" level. maybe they're just experimenting. etc.
    I guess some experiments work whilst others don't. Dusty is a very tough act to follow. Even Aretha failed to match Dusty's peerless reading of the song.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    as superfans, we can to aggrandize the whole Motown experience. there's a lot of personal feelings for us tied to the music but we forget that it was really just a job, albeit perhaps a fun one, for many of the general employees at Motown. at the end of the day, they worked, earned a pay check ,paid their morgages and bills and lived life. yes they might have interacted with superstars so that's a bit out of the ordinary. but they're still just average joes
    I truly think so, SupFan. Perhaps more 'coddled' stars [[Streisand, maybe) who are presented with fewer songs to record, or singer-songwriters who have a personal stake in the material, a label such as Motown had their stable recording song after song, day in and day out. Not each and every recording session can be a memory, to be sure!

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    Your incorrect on a couple of things. Diana Ross was already seen as a sex symbol by 1993. Maybe not to you but, to the world that was part of the Diana Ross image. Glamour, class and sexiness. The cover was applauded at that time as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    I dont recall ever hearing this. I read Diana had second thoughts about "going there" and decided to look ahead. So she pulled the book.
    Thats what I heard aa well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanj06 View Post
    Have to agree. It was such a let down and came through as somewhat phony and boring. She has a story. She just doesn't want to tell it like it is. It hit the budget tables very quickly back then. And that cover...pure tacky. I know Tina Turner posed for a similar photo but Diana Ross? No. Her attempt at becoming some sex symbol backfired, but hey, there are worse.
    Your incorrect on a couple of things. Diana Ross was already seen as a sex symbol by 1993. Maybe not to you but, to the world that was part of the Diana Ross image. Glamour, class and sexiness. The cover was applauded at that time as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3677danielr View Post
    Your incorrect on a couple of things. Diana Ross was already seen as a sex symbol by 1993. Maybe not to you but, to the world that was part of the Diana Ross image. Glamour, class and sexiness. The cover was applauded at that time as well.
    Diana Ross is one sexy lady. When i met her i was bowled over by her natural beauty. My [[at the time 12 year old) daughter told Diana face to face she was even more beautiful than the Queen of England. That made both Diana and i laugh out loud!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    I guess some experiments work whilst others don't. Dusty is a very tough act to follow. Even Aretha failed to match Dusty's peerless reading of the song.
    I thought Dianas cover of Going Back was so beautiful. One of my favorite Diana recordings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    I thought Dianas cover of Going Back was so beautiful. One of my favorite Diana recordings.
    I did too Roberta. I love Diana’s version very much.

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