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    DRATS & Temps Enhanced from Sullivan

    Added to "Ed Sullivan Show" YouTube channel on June 20 --


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    I remember this particular appearance got talked about a lot in school the next morning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zani57 View Post
    Added to "Ed Sullivan Show" YouTube channel on June 20 --

    Mary and Cindy were dancing up a storm on “Losing You”. I have always wondered how much Rehearsal time is involved for something like this? David had an incredible voice. Thanks for posting.

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    I always enjoyed this performance. Ahh, the days of superior talent...It wasn't long after this that David was gone I think?

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    One of the best things Motown finally did was to pair the two groups up.

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    I was so glad to see this one enhanced and I added it to my favorites before the video even started! I just love to watch Diana groove in this performance and her head movements, which are only accentuated by the large wig, which is among my overall favorite looks for Miss Ross.
    Darin

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    David absolutely blows her away. The clip looks the same. Nothing enhanced.

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    Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulmusic4life View Post
    David absolutely blows her away. The clip looks the same. Nothing enhanced.
    He was vocally murdering her. She complained about it at rehearsal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?
    He was, but Diana was upset that he was singing circles around her and went to Mr. Gordy to have the key raised.

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    Two of the Greatest Groups of All Time.

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    David just out a out SLAYED that Baby Baby I'm A-WHERE lyric!...and he looks almost as skinny as Diana.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulmusic4life View Post
    David absolutely blows her away. The clip looks the same. Nothing enhanced.
    Riveting. Like anyone with two ears and a brain wouldn’t have acknowledged the fact that David Ruffin had a more powerful, soulful voice than Diana Ross. Next week, please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom and let us know that Earth is larger than Mars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    David just out a out SLAYED that Baby Baby I'm A-WHERE lyric!...and he looks almost as skinny as Diana.
    I love David’s voice - not as much as Eddie [[I’m a falsetto kinda gal) but the misogynists around here give him a hall pass for his drug addiction and abusive behavior. Meanwhile, we’re still slamming Diana for getting a DUI twenty years ago. Look who’s still standing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?
    Asked with the innocence of Shirley Temple. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    Asked with the innocence of Shirley Temple. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
    That’s a good one Roberta. Thank you for helping me start the day with a chuckle . Beautiful day here in the UK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?
    So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by monicarivers View Post
    Riveting. Like anyone with two ears and a brain wouldn’t have acknowledged the fact that David Ruffin had a more powerful, soulful voice than Diana Ross. Next week, please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom and let us know that Earth is larger than Mars.
    Whatever. Go piss off asshole

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    Again, I applaud Motown for putting these two groups together finally. I think both groups benefited regarding the fan base who surrounded the groups. Also, with everything that was going in the 60's they kind of knocked down doors with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.
    I'm not sure, either, and at this point I don't really care. I loved seeing the two groups together [[and on Ed Sullivan!). I thought both Diana and David performed admirably in their own distinct and different styles. I think the vast majority of Ed Sullivan's TV audience didn't compare and contrast "styles". It was a national, far-reaching, diverse audience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    That’s a good one Roberta. Thank you for helping me start the day with a chuckle . Beautiful day here in the UK.
    Enjoy your day dear Ollie.

    Fondly,

    Roberta

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    I'm not sure, either, and at this point I don't really care. I loved seeing the two groups together [[and on Ed Sullivan!). I thought both Diana and David performed admirably in their own distinct and different styles. I think the vast majority of Ed Sullivan's TV audience didn't compare and contrast "styles". It was a national, far-reaching, diverse audience.
    I agree. Most folk view such performances to be entertained although there are always going to be people who don't view or listen for musical entertainment, but to analyze and compare. Both Diana and David, indeed, were very good in their presentations. But it's human nature, I guess, that die hard fans look more into a situation than what is really there and suggest some 'conspiracy' theories as to what was really going on in the artists' minds at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    I'm not sure, either, and at this point I don't really care. I loved seeing the two groups together [[and on Ed Sullivan!). I thought both Diana and David performed admirably in their own distinct and different styles. I think the vast majority of Ed Sullivan's TV audience didn't compare and contrast "styles". It was a national, far-reaching, diverse audience.
    Agree. Having said, i would still like to know if the incident did happen. Its all part of Motown history after all.
    If indeed it did, then i don’t really blame Diana at all. If I had the clout and a key change was going to make me sound a lot better i would probably have done the exact same thing. In a nice a way as possible....of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    One of the best things Motown finally did was to pair the two groups up.
    There was also their appearance on Mike Douglas together in 1966, but I think their performance together was more impromptu than an elaborately put together act, such as this Sullivan performance and the television specials. But I agree, absolutely fantastic decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.
    I agree. They both sound fantastic. I really hate that David was fired before the Join sessions took place. I would've loved to hear how he and Diana sounded in the studio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobucats View Post
    I agree. Most folk view such performances to be entertained although there are always going to be people who don't view or listen for musical entertainment, but to analyze and compare. Both Diana and David, indeed, were very good in their presentations. But it's human nature, I guess, that die hard fans look more into a situation than what is really there and suggest some 'conspiracy' theories as to what was really going on in the artists' minds at the time.
    I'll add to this, that another component of the gossip are the books that have been released over the last 35 or so years. As soon as a book publishes a story, some fans commit it to memory and repeat as though it's scripture. It would be interesting if we had the ability to remix history and see how differently a forum such as this plays out without information culled from gossipy books having been available.

    Of course that probably still wouldn't stop certain people who's great aunt's neighbor was the postman for somebody else's cousin who's boyfriend's grandfather used to cut the hair of the nephew of a woman who once heard Diana Ross tell Mary Wilson to shut up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Agree. Having said, i would still like to know if the incident did happen. Its all part of Motown history after all.
    If indeed it did, then i don’t really blame Diana at all. If I had the clout and a key change was going to make me sound a lot better i would probably have done the exact same thing. In a nice a way as possible....of course.
    I find the story questionable. Why would Motown send it's two biggest acts onto one of the most popular shows of the time and allow either one to come across as inferior? Again, I think this is a JRT book story, as I can't recall seeing it documented anywhere else. It makes more sense that a key was found that complimented Diana and David, a key which was probably a little lower for her and a little higher for him. The fact that neither singer sounds any better or worse than they normally do squashes the conspiracy theory in my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    ...Of course that probably still wouldn't stop certain people who's great aunt's neighbor was the postman for somebody else's cousin who's boyfriend's grandfather used to cut the hair of the nephew of a woman who once heard Diana Ross tell Mary Wilson to shut up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobucats View Post
    I agree. Most folk view such performances to be entertained although there are always going to be people who don't view or listen for musical entertainment, but to analyze and compare. Both Diana and David, indeed, were very good in their presentations. But it's human nature, I guess, that die hard fans look more into a situation than what is really there and suggest some 'conspiracy' theories as to what was really going on in the artists' minds at the time.
    i'm not quite so sure about this legend either.

    both the temps and four tops were recorded in keys that made the male lead vocalist [[both David and Levi are baritones) strain into the upper reaches of their range. the upper reaches of a baritone are right in line with an alto female singer.

    When the musical arrangers pulled this medley together, odds are they would NOT have significantly changed the keys of each tune from the original. So these would be perfectly within Diana's range.

    plus you REALLY think the musical arrangers at motown [[ie Maurice King) wouldn't have know what keys Diana sounds good in? and wouldn't said musical arranger frankly be more focused on Diana than any of the others, seeing as how that was the typical way of things at motown?

    now i COULD imagine that there were various little prima donna moments from both Diana and David. probably Eddie too. they all had huge egos. so someone might not have liked one bit of staging and someone else felt another singer had too many more measure of song to sing, etc etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I find the story questionable. Why would Motown send it's two biggest acts onto one of the most popular shows of the time and allow either one to come across as inferior? Again, I think this is a JRT book story, as I can't recall seeing it documented anywhere else. It makes more sense that a key was found that complimented Diana and David, a key which was probably a little lower for her and a little higher for him. The fact that neither singer sounds any better or worse than they normally do squashes the conspiracy theory in my mind.
    agreed! we much have been typing at the same time lolol Said pretty much the same thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I find the story questionable. Why would Motown send it's two biggest acts onto one of the most popular shows of the time and allow either one to come across as inferior? Again, I think this is a JRT book story, as I can't recall seeing it documented anywhere else. It makes more sense that a key was found that complimented Diana and David, a key which was probably a little lower for her and a little higher for him. The fact that neither singer sounds any better or worse than they normally do squashes the conspiracy theory in my mind.
    It does seem a little odd i agree. The only possible I can think of is if Diana sprung the key change out of the blue at the eleventh hour. Even if it were true, i personally don’t find it that big a deal. Does anyone know if any of the Temptations have ever mentioned it?.

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    the only indepth info on the Temps is Otis' book. at least that i'm aware of. of course you can pull out Deliver Us From Temptation by Miss Tonita Turner lolol. that's another source, so to speak lol

    otis doesn't mention this at all in his book

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    This appearance aired on Easter or around Easter that year I recall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ranran79 View Post
    of course that probably still wouldn't stop certain people who's great aunt's neighbor was the postman for somebody else's cousin who's boyfriend's grandfather used to cut the hair of the nephew of a woman who once heard diana ross tell mary wilson to shut up.
    lolololololololololololololol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    It does seem a little odd i agree. The only possible I can think of is if Diana sprung the key change out of the blue at the eleventh hour. Even if it were true, i personally don’t find it that big a deal. Does anyone know if any of the Temptations have ever mentioned it?.
    Otis mentioned it in his book. He said during rehearsals everyone was giving their all and David's best was always fantastic. But Diana thought the key was too low for her. Maurice King told the Tempts not to worry because she was just pissed because "you guys are giving her hell." But Diana told Berry and Berry instructed Maurice to raise the key so that it was barely within David's range. In the meantime, Diana devoted hours to rehearsing and was in great form by showtime.

    Now old memories aside, I think the medley as performed here is perfect. So if it had been done in a lower key, it probably wouldn't have sounded as good as it does. Both Diana and David shine.
    Last edited by reese; 06-25-2020 at 08:02 PM.

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    This is not the Supremes and Temptations first television appearance together despite what Ed Sullivan said. They appeared together on The Mike Douglas Show together a few years earlier.

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    To my ears Eddie, David, and Diana are singing in the same keys they always did. They literally sound like they always did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Otis mentioned it in his book. He said during rehearsals everyone was giving their all and David's best was always fantastic. But Diana thought the key was too low for her. Maurice King told the Tempts not to worry because she was just pissed because "you guys are giving her hell." But Diana told Berry and Berry instructed Maurice to raise the key so that it was barely within David's range. In the meantime, Diana devoted hours to rehearsing and was in great form by showtime.

    Now old memories aside, I think the medley as performed here is perfect. So if it had been done in a lower key, it probably wouldn't have sounded as good as it does. Both Diana and David shine.
    i flipped through the book looking for that and couldn't find it. But i certainly didn't read every page. i thought the Maurice King story was from the Tony Turner sagas and not Otis'. but could have them mixed up

    i completely agree with your point that the medley sounded excellent! and none of the songs sound radically changed, in terms of key, from the originals.

    Does anyone know what the groups sang on Mike Douglas? The pic of the groups together looks rather casual. The girls are in day clothes not matching gowns or outfits. Did they all interview together?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i flipped through the book looking for that and couldn't find it. But i certainly didn't read every page. i thought the Maurice King story was from the Tony Turner sagas and not Otis'. but could have them mixed up

    i completely agree with your point that the medley sounded excellent! and none of the songs sound radically changed, in terms of key, from the originals.

    Does anyone know what the groups sang on Mike Douglas? The pic of the groups together looks rather casual. The girls are in day clothes not matching gowns or outfits. Did they all interview together?
    Just for reference, the story is on pp. 107–108 in the hardcover edition of Otis' book, released 1988. Otis had been talking about how Shelly Berger had recently began managing both the Supremes and the Tempts and one of the first things he did was team them for concert [[Forest Hills Stadium) and tv appearances. Then he tells the story of the Sullivan appearance. IMO, he didn't tell it with any bitterness. Just the way he saw it.

    The next year, J. Randy put it in his book and made it a shade darker, although somewhat sad as well. Randy mentioned how during one rehearsal, Mary and Cindy and the Tempts gathered around a piano and sang old doo-wop standards to each other. In a corner, Diana sat alone observing, singing along and bopping her head to the beat, obviously wanting to join in but feeling left out.

    Tony Turner also included it in his book on the Tempts and of course, put his patented spin on it

    Re the Mike Douglas appearance, I think there was first some sort of dance demonstration, a photo of which is in the booklet for the Tempts' anthology. I could swear someone mentioned on here what the groups sang together but I can't find that info.
    Last edited by reese; 06-25-2020 at 11:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    agreed! we much have been typing at the same time lolol Said pretty much the same thing
    Great minds, my friend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Otis mentioned it in his book. He said during rehearsals everyone was giving their all and David's best was always fantastic. But Diana thought the key was too low for her. Maurice King told the Tempts not to worry because she was just pissed because "you guys are giving her hell." But Diana told Berry and Berry instructed Maurice to raise the key so that it was barely within David's range. In the meantime, Diana devoted hours to rehearsing and was in great form by showtime.

    Now old memories aside, I think the medley as performed here is perfect. So if it had been done in a lower key, it probably wouldn't have sounded as good as it does. Both Diana and David shine.
    Thanks Reese! Now noted that Otis confirms the story. Or originates it, as the case may be. I agree, they sound perfect.

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    The article below from The Detroit Free Press explains why all of these videos are re-surfacing again now. For that person who said that they are not enhanced, the video quality looks much better to me than what I have seen in other formats --

    https://amp.freep.com/amp/5338761002

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    Quote Originally Posted by zani57 View Post
    The article below from The Detroit Free Press explains why all of these videos are re-surfacing again now. For that person who said that they are not enhanced, the video quality looks much better to me than what I have seen in other formats --

    https://amp.freep.com/amp/5338761002
    Great article. We were one of those families that watched it every Sunday night. Thanks Zani57!

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Otis mentioned it in his book. He said during rehearsals everyone was giving their all and David's best was always fantastic. But Diana thought the key was too low for her. Maurice King told the Tempts not to worry because she was just pissed because "you guys are giving her hell." But Diana told Berry and Berry instructed Maurice to raise the key so that it was barely within David's range. In the meantime, Diana devoted hours to rehearsing and was in great form by showtime.

    Now old memories aside, I think the medley as performed here is perfect. So if it had been done in a lower key, it probably wouldn't have sounded as good as it does. Both Diana and David shine.
    Many thanks for the info reese. I agree that both singers do a great job. My only complaint being the performance it is all to short. I would have loved to have seen a little more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.
    well I will never understand about this legend is this, I think everyone will admit that David Ruffin is doing a great job in the Medley in the key that it is in. If that is acknowledged by all as it seems to be here, what purpose would there be to have a medley in a lower key that he could sing in and diana could not? Are some of you suggesting that this television appearance would’ve been better served if the key were lower than one Diana could vocalize in?

    David had two or three minutes on this show singing, Diana had the whole medley, green sleeves, thou swell, plus in and out of love. Miss Ross had things to do that day! Singing in the wrong key with David Ruffin was not going to be one of them.

    this is another whiny, bitchy, flimsy piece of idiocy prattled on by those who are so quick to judge and shame, they don’t think of the practical reason for the key change. Evidently Otis felt that a key serving both was not preferable. It’s so childish. I much prefer the horror story of diana sleeping on the couch and mary sleeping on the floor, or how mean mean mean Diana was to accuse Mary of stealing the prize money and then spending freely at the amusement park after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    well I will never understand about this legend is this, I think everyone will admit that David Ruffin is doing a great job in the Medley in the key that it is in. If that is acknowledged by all as it seems to be here, what purpose would there be to have a medley in a lower key that he could sing in and diana could not? Are some of you suggesting that this television appearance would’ve been better served if the key were lower than one Diana could vocalize in?

    David had two or three minutes on this show singing, Diana had the whole medley, green sleeves, thou swell, plus in and out of love. Miss Ross had things to do that day! Singing in the wrong key with David Ruffin was not going to be one of them.

    this is another whiny, bitchy, flimsy piece of idiocy prattled on by those who are so quick to judge and shame, they don’t think of the practical reason for the key change. Evidently Otis felt that a key serving both was not preferable. It’s so childish. I much prefer the horror story of diana sleeping on the couch and mary sleeping on the floor, or how mean mean mean Diana was to accuse Mary of stealing the prize money and then spending freely at the amusement park after.
    I was really not aware anyone was suggesting anything. I’ve repeatedly mentioned I think both singers do a great job so find it strange you attach this to my post.
    As far as I can make out the thread is merely a discussion about an incident that according to a least one original Temptation actually happened. Whether one chooses to believe it or not or considers it a complete irrelevance is most certainly personal choice. For me personally it’s no big a deal. Are you saying Otis made the whole thing up to be nasty?. Perhaps if he had written Diana spent an hour after the show distributing funds to the sick and needy it might be more readily accepted??.
    Im a little confused here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I much prefer the horror story of diana sleeping on the couch and mary sleeping on the floor,
    I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

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    Sometimes life is more stranger than fiction.
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

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    What key does David usually sing in, and what key is he singing here? Is it a major difference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Just for reference, the story is on pp. 107–108 in the hardcover edition of Otis' book, released 1988. Otis had been talking about how Shelly Berger had recently began managing both the Supremes and the Tempts and one of the first things he did was team them for concert [[Forest Hills Stadium) and tv appearances. Then he tells the story of the Sullivan appearance. IMO, he didn't tell it with any bitterness. Just the way he saw it.

    The next year, J. Randy put it in his book and made it a shade darker, although somewhat sad as well. Randy mentioned how during one rehearsal, Mary and Cindy and the Tempts gathered around a piano and sang old doo-wop standards to each other. In a corner, Diana sat alone observing, singing along and bopping her head to the beat, obviously wanting to join in but feeling left out.

    Tony Turner also included it in his book on the Tempts and of course, put his patented spin on it

    Re the Mike Douglas appearance, I think there was first some sort of dance demonstration, a photo of which is in the booklet for the Tempts' anthology. I could swear someone mentioned on here what the groups sang together but I can't find that info.
    good call reese! i stand corrected. and that's what i love about this forum and sharing info and learning more!

    I've seen a pic of the sups and temps on Douglas. they appear to be dancing, singing, having fun. no idea if they're singing one of their tunes, some pop or MOR song, who knows

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[REMOVE ADS]

Ralph Terrana
MODERATOR

Welcome to Soulful Detroit! Kindly Consider Turning Off Your Ad BlockingX
Soulful Detroit is a free service that relies on revenue from ad display [regrettably] and donations. We notice that you are using an ad-blocking program that prevents us from earning revenue during your visit.
Ads are REMOVED for Members who donate to Soulful Detroit. [You must be logged in for ads to disappear]
DONATE HERE »
And have Ads removed.