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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    It's really a shame that the Motorcity project wasn't met with more success...Having the USA launch in Detroit was a very smart move...but it just didn't get enough attention elsewhere save for the UK soul freaks....seems it was too big a project to finance and manage properly.
    I was VERY excited to see both Jean and Scherrie actively recording....the JSL unit was a legitimate 70's Supremes reunion. I WANT TO BE LOVED and the duet with the Originals BACK BY POPULAR DEMAND were excellent recordings....as far as the solo work done....I think some of Lynda's tracks had great potential.
    There were some shady things that went on with the Motorcity project. Some artists were not paid for songs they wrote, along with some recordings. Ian Levine told me that the majority of the recordings and videos were targeted for foreign markets. They did not really push the material here in America.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    GMan--I have to say that I have never been a fan of Lynda's until recently. It's not like I ever had anything against her, I just didn't know anything about her. Now that I've seen the old clips I can honestly say she had the personality to carry the lead.
    I like some of Lynda's work as a solo artist much better than anything with her fronting the group. Like Susaye her voice is a bit too piercing and sharp [[like Florence) for me. I am not a big fan of belty or shrill, and not everything requires a big "run all my notes" treatment. I find in the post-Jean FLO's live work there was a lot of over singing in Lynda's solos. I've often wondered how the issue of "control" was approached for the RTL appearances?....Have you ever heard her performance on John Kydd's 12" of Up The Ladder To The Roof? Scherrie, Cindy and Lynda [[along with Jayne Edwards) all took part in the recording and had solo's...but believe me...This was definitely Lynda's record....I can't find any updated info on John....according to the 12" pic cover text he was a very close buddy of Cindy's son, David.
    When she's relaxed and reeled in, she can be a very pleasant listen. Lynda's recordings of Forever Came Today, Living With A Married Man, If This World Were Mine and Forever are the one's I enjoy the most.

  3. #103
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    I haven't heard any of Lynda's solo stuff--I guess I was just referring to Lynda's personality. I just saw an old Soul Train interview with Mary, Lynda and Jean and Lynda came off as confident, bubbly and fun.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    I don't think so, RanRan. Motown knew that David's irresponsible behavior was due to drug use and that put him out of the running for any kind of push by Motown as a solo star. It's not like other Motown singers weren't doing drugs as well but they weren't in your face with it as David was. Berry Gordy didn't care that David was fired--Dennis came in effortlessly and the Tempts never missed a beat. Ruffin's drug problems were legendary and he earned his reputation.
    and when he got kicked out of the Temps, didn't he try and absolve his contract with Motown? took them to court or something?

    I think had he NOT done that, motown might have been a bit more interested in his solo capabilities. a bit. but what he did was truly heretical. even Flo didn't do that in public until the 70s!

    so i guess they signed him to make the public feel that motown had NOT been wrong. had they immediately canned him, then it really would have looked like the company was an evil, vindictive entity. but they propped up the family myth and signed him after all of that drama. and he had a big hit too. My Whole World Ended is a great tune and it's success is certainly justified. but then they literally did NOTHING for him.

    not that he himself isn't to blame. clearly a tormented person and the death of Tammi certainly didn't help. but the drugs and attitude guaranteed he would never be a success longterm at motown

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    I like some of Lynda's work as a solo artist much better than anything with her fronting the group. Like Susaye her voice is a bit too piercing and sharp [[like Florence) for me. I am not a big fan of belty or shrill, and not everything requires a big "run all my notes" treatment. I find in the post-Jean FLO's live work there was a lot of over singing in Lynda's solos. I've often wondered how the issue of "control" was approached for the RTL appearances?....Have you ever heard her performance on John Kydd's 12" of Up The Ladder To The Roof? Scherrie, Cindy and Lynda [[along with Jayne Edwards) all took part in the recording and had solo's...but believe me...This was definitely Lynda's record....I can't find any updated info on John....according to the 12" pic cover text he was a very close buddy of Cindy's son, David.
    When she's relaxed and reeled in, she can be a very pleasant listen. Lynda's recordings of Forever Came Today, Living With A Married Man, If This World Were Mine and Forever are the one's I enjoy the most.
    i'm not too familiar either with Lynda's work outside of the group. she does have a more piercing tone to her voice and i think that's why she probably fits better in more of a lead role. I never thought she and M achieved a blend even remotely as good as M and C.

    as for the LMC temporary lineup, we have a few bootleg recordings that sound pretty good. always hard to really judge the quality of a person's vocals by listening to some ancient 100th generation dubbed cassette tape. I do think Lynda has a fabulous personality and fit well in the group. had it been LMC as an official lineup, that could have been a good one.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    There were some shady things that went on with the Motorcity project. Some artists were not paid for songs they wrote, along with some recordings. Ian Levine told me that the majority of the recordings and videos were targeted for foreign markets. They did not really push the material here in America.
    I'd love to hear more about those MotorCity projects, Marv. I bet you know a lot more.
    Can't blame Ian for targeting the European market , who still seemed to cherish all things Motown. Not sure why there wasn't more American involvement in this project, iows in-house interest from the Motown label especially . Any support from Berry Gordy himself?

    Odd that a lone brit was hell bent on acknowledging and resurrecting these fading stars , while most of those closest to them were sort of ho-hum about it. Or do i have it wrong??

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    I like some of Lynda's work as a solo artist much better than anything with her fronting the group. Like Susaye her voice is a bit too piercing and sharp [[like Florence) for me. I am not a big fan of belty or shrill, and not everything requires a big "run all my notes" treatment. I find in the post-Jean FLO's live work there was a lot of over singing in Lynda's solos. I've often wondered how the issue of "control" was approached for the RTL appearances?....Have you ever heard her performance on John Kydd's 12" of Up The Ladder To The Roof? Scherrie, Cindy and Lynda [[along with Jayne Edwards) all took part in the recording and had solo's...but believe me...This was definitely Lynda's record....I can't find any updated info on John....according to the 12" pic cover text he was a very close buddy of Cindy's son, David.
    When she's relaxed and reeled in, she can be a very pleasant listen. Lynda's recordings of Forever Came Today, Living With A Married Man, If This World Were Mine and Forever are the one's I enjoy the most.
    Lynda has always had a loud bland voice that I never cared for. No character or warmth to it.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    I'd love to hear more about those MotorCity projects, Marv. I bet you know a lot more.
    Can't blame Ian for targeting the European market , who still seemed to cherish all things Motown. Not sure why there wasn't more American involvement in this project, iows in-house interest from the Motown label especially . Any support from Berry Gordy himself?

    Odd that a lone brit was hell bent on acknowledging and resurrecting these fading stars , while most of those closest to them were sort of ho-hum about it. Or do i have it wrong??
    You don't have it wrong and there is a lot more [[that I can't talk about because there was litigation involved and may still be going on). It was startling to see how many artists that Motown left behind in Detroit when Ian began his project. Support from Berry Gordy? HA! We couldn't get him to donate even a minimal amount to the Hitsville Museum back then! LOL!

  9. #109
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    I think you have it exactly right, Boogiedown. Motown artists love playing Europe because people over there appreciate them for their talent, and they don't seem to care if they have current hit records or not. Mary Wilson has said this herself and that's why she loves performing in Europe. I don't blame her! Here in America you either have a huge single or you are invisible and forgotten.

  10. #110
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    I wished Jean had not left the business altogether. I wished she would have continued to record new music and perhaps market it herself.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    and when he got kicked out of the Temps, didn't he try and absolve his contract with Motown? took them to court or something?

    I think had he NOT done that, motown might have been a bit more interested in his solo capabilities. a bit. but what he did was truly heretical. even Flo didn't do that in public until the 70s!

    so i guess they signed him to make the public feel that motown had NOT been wrong. had they immediately canned him, then it really would have looked like the company was an evil, vindictive entity. but they propped up the family myth and signed him after all of that drama. and he had a big hit too. My Whole World Ended is a great tune and it's success is certainly justified. but then they literally did NOTHING for him.

    not that he himself isn't to blame. clearly a tormented person and the death of Tammi certainly didn't help. but the drugs and attitude guaranteed he would never be a success longterm at motown
    "Walk Away From Love" was a HUGE hit! I don't understand what you are talking about.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    I don't think Motown actively killed the Supremes, I think Berry was too preoccupied with Diana to split equally the care needed to make Ross the first superstar of the 70's and to continue the success of the Supremes. He found a great voice in Jean Terrell but perhaps not the right fit for the Supremes image. When he changed his mind, he didn't actively put in as much care as he had in the past to give them a solid image. He was focused on Diana Ross, the Supremes were not the only group to lose his attention because of that. If he wanted Syreeta, he should have put her in the group. Refitting gowns while they were going forward with a new concept was all cost conscious. All they wanted to do was make as much money on the Supremes' name while they could. Slipping in someone with a great voice was a plus, but not realizing a new image or promoting Jean Terrell and her image did not bode well for longevity. As hard as it was for Terrell, it had to be harder for Wilson to see the company no longer make them a top priority. The push they gave was just to make money for the name recognition and reputation. Having to fight for the group and then deal with a new member who did not agree with you must have been very hard.
    He didn't really want Syreeta, neither did Mary or Cindy. Syreeta had been with Motown going on 3 years by the time the spot in the Supremes opened up and the company had not done anything with her in regards to being a recording artist.

  13. #113
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    Loved 75's [[?) Walk Away From Love....it was one of the few singles I really loved at the time and didn't buy...I was 15 and living on Babysitting cash...."reefer money!"

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Flo and Mary were lucky in a sense. Prior to them becoming a global phenomenon, they had approximately five years with Diana, cultivating their image, their sound, their chemistry together. Mary's first book puts Diana's official designation [[ie Gordy's verbal mandate) of lead singer as approximately late 63-early 64. But there's no question that Diana was the unofficial lead singer of the group from 1961-1964, yet there's also no question that they were as much a group as any other group of the day.

    So when the girls became the legendary Supremes, there was room for each girl's identity. Sure, one girl got most of the leads and by extension a good amount of attention. It also didn't hurt that she was a little bit "extra" in nearly every way. But they were separate identities that equaled this incredible entertainment entity and as such, Flo and Mary enjoyed their own individual fame.

    DRATS was something else entirely. That really was a solo artist with prominent background performers. It's interesting to note just how many TV performances DRATS did where Mary and Cindy are right up under Ross most of the time, like the Fats Waller medley. At first glance one wants to say "Hey, they're still a group here", but if you really pay attention this is all Diana Ross with vocal and dance accompaniment, not the Supremes, a singing group. [[It is, for the record, probably my favorite DRATS performance. Perfect in every way.) My point being, there was no room for Mary and Cindy's individualism the way there was when Flo was in the group. This was a test run. Diana Ross left the Supremes on the same night Florence did.

    What set Diana Ross apart from the other Supremes and, even most of the other Motown acts is that she was a total entertainer. She moved on the stage, gracefully. Her smile really could light up a room. She had this ability to pull the audience into her every move, every word, every look. She was a fashionista. She was gorgeous. And she could flat out sing. Back her up with a full orchestra and she'll kill it. Throw her in front of a Funk Brother's groove and she'll knock it out of the park. Throw her a mic and no music and she'll still captivate. She possessed a magic that sometimes may have been difficult to even define. But you knew she had it. [[I think only Michael Jackson was the other Motown star to have that thing. I also think that if David Ruffin had gotten out of his own way, and then had the kind of attention that Diana got from the big guy, the same might be said of him also.)

    Diana had the ingredients from day one, it just took someone to help her hone it. Would her full talent have been realized at Stax or Atlantic or Columbia? One might argue no. On the flipside it's always interesting to ponder what might have become of Florence or even Mary had they gone to another label where someone was more interested in their particular skills. But Diana Ross was definitely a diamond in the rough that, to Gordy's credit, he saw the value in and we all reaped the rewards.
    i don’t know if you ever saw DMF OR DMC live, but you are correct when you say they were two different acts. DMF: each was a treat. They were different live because that was their medium where they honed their craft All three were engaging and charismatic. That didn’t really come across on TV especially with Mary. One of the reasons why they worked so well together live is because each was given exactly what they were good at doing, consequently all three shined. of course Diana was the focal point because it was her voice that was selling the records, and she was fantastic live, but Florence and Mary held up their end of the bargain beautifully.

    when Florence left, the focus was entirely on Diana because they were grooming her for solo stardom, but also because Cindy was a dullard compared to Flo. Without Florence, Mary did not shine as bright and that had nothing to do with the focus of the group. Flos charisma was so strong that Mary benefited from it. when Cindy came, Mary had to use her lesser light to try to boost Cindy…… And it was nowhere near as good. Diana was growing into a powerhouse star, as evidenced by the fats Waller medley. Mary and Cindy are great in it, and Mary looks stupendous in her close-ups, but that was all icing on the diana ross cake. When diana left, there wasn’t anyone that shined really. Jean had a great voice, but it didn’t translate into sales, record or concert tickets. It takes more than a good voice to make a superstar or carry a group. Jean Mary and Cindy together didn’t have the stage presence or charisma that diana ross had on an off night.

    Diana was captivating - an audience sponge. She got rave reviews for their Copa gig in 67 and she was so hoarse that I am shocked Motown made her work it. She could just barely sing and was certainly damaging her voice She was huge in countries that didn’t even speak English, but Still I wish you could’ve seen Mary and Florence in 1965 or 66 - They were perfect for their place in the act and they knew it. They should not have tried to mess with the perfect formula - like Coke did. GO WITH WHAT WORKS AND MADE HISTORY!!!

    It was a good time to be a Supremes fan until Hollywood Palace Reflections. then It was a good time to be a diana ross fan.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Carolyn Crawford would have definitely made a good replacement. Good call! Ultimately though, Jean Terrell was the ultimate and perfect candidate in my opinion. Thinking about it, She must have scared the shit out of a certain other singer. Why? Well because Berry Gordy just happen to go out for drinks one night at the Fountainbleu [[sp?) in Miami and without even trying real hard found a superb replacement for Diana Ross in the Supremes [[the biggest female act in the world at that time!). Some concluded that Jean Terrell was even a much better singer. This could not have done Miss Ross' self esteem much good..........LOL!
    when the Jean albums began to tank in less than a year and concert venues went from arenas to theaters in 6 months, Miss Ross’ self esteem must have felt pretty damn good then by your standards. In pop culture, audiences decide what works and what doesn’t - a car can have a great engine, but if the chassis isn’t right, it won’t sell.

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    I would have to disagree that Cindy was a dullard in any respect. Each grouping had its own dynamics. Of course, since the original trio was the one that sparked the whole group it is inevitable that they would be the standard all were held up to. I also found Mary to be quite a focal point in the original group while Diana sang lead and was quite charismatic-Mary was quite beautiful and projected an air of certainty, assurance and calm as well as being the most excellent in their choreography while maintaining a beaming smile. Florence had a more girl next door appeal and she seemed a bit off with the choreography but conveyed an endearing and impish personality and while her voice was loud, I wouldn't say she was the total powerhouse pulling Mary along in their dynamics. Cindy was quite endearing and seemed more reserved than Florence but she was quite glamorous and beautiful in her own right. By now, Ross was such a focal point that someone could stand on their head and sing an aria and it still would have not had an impact as her ascendance was set in stone. I think starting with the DRATS period, Mary was feeling uneasy with her place in the group and stated on Donahue that she was even concerned she would be ousted from the group, so she started to project a more bubbly personae to match her million dollar smile. The fact that Cindy seemed to share a look and glamour with Mary made them blend together visually more than the individuality of Flo and Mary. Like I said , Jean was a good singer but she seemed to lack the charisma that even Mary or Cindy projected. It was fine, but not what was expected from the group. Still, musically I prefer the 1970's Supremes and even more so when Scherrie joined and lent her voice as well as her own pizzazz and glamour.

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    Cindy was a "dullard?" LOL where did that come from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    Loved 75's [[?) Walk Away From Love....it was one of the few singles I really loved at the time and didn't buy...I was 15 and living on Babysitting cash...."reefer money!"
    Ahhhhh I was 15 too! LOL!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    I would have to disagree that Cindy was a dullard in any respect. Each grouping had its own dynamics. Of course, since the original trio was the one that sparked the whole group it is inevitable that they would be the standard all were held up to. I also found Mary to be quite a focal point in the original group while Diana sang lead and was quite charismatic-Mary was quite beautiful and projected an air of certainty, assurance and calm as well as being the most excellent in their choreography while maintaining a beaming smile. Florence had a more girl next door appeal and she seemed a bit off with the choreography but conveyed an endearing and impish personality and while her voice was loud, I wouldn't say she was the total powerhouse pulling Mary along in their dynamics. Cindy was quite endearing and seemed more reserved than Florence but she was quite glamorous and beautiful in her own right. By now, Ross was such a focal point that someone could stand on their head and sing an aria and it still would have not had an impact as her ascendance was set in stone. I think starting with the DRATS period, Mary was feeling uneasy with her place in the group and stated on Donahue that she was even concerned she would be ousted from the group, so she started to project a more bubbly personae to match her million dollar smile. The fact that Cindy seemed to share a look and glamour with Mary made them blend together visually more than the individuality of Flo and Mary. Like I said , Jean was a good singer but she seemed to lack the charisma that even Mary or Cindy projected. It was fine, but not what was expected from the group. Still, musically I prefer the 1970's Supremes and even more so when Scherrie joined and lent her voice as well as her own pizzazz and glamour.
    Jim
    I agree with your assessment . While I love Flo I liked Cindy more which also allowed Mary to shine even more. I also notice that Mary and Cindy's blend really complemented Diana's vocals where Diana didn't have to compete with Flo's powerful voice. Sometimes less is more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Cindy was a "dullard?" LOL where did that come from?
    There was a previous post that stated that she was in comparison to Flo. I love all of the members and that was an assessment that I did not agree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rod_rick View Post
    Jim
    I agree with your assessment . While I love Flo I liked Cindy more which also allowed Mary to shine even more. I also notice that Mary and Cindy's blend really complemented Diana's vocals where Diana didn't have to compete with Flo's powerful voice. Sometimes less is more.
    I didn't become a fan until 1970. To me the Supremes always were Mary and Cindy whether they were with Diana, Jean or Scherrie. That is not to say that Florence[[obviously), Lynda and Scherrie did not contribute their own uniqueness to the group but the visual and vocal blend of Mary & Cindy were just excellent and complimentary to all involved.

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    Vocally, the blend of Flo and Mary’s voice was for me the best. I think Florence’s full and robust voice added character to many of the groups recordings.Their harmony's on the Sing Rodgers and Hart set are sublime. Cindy has a pretty voice that was adaptable. Sadly she was never really given the chance to show just what she was capable of at Motown. I’ve always thought she sounded a lot like the late Minnie Ripperton.

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    I feel similarly about Mary and Flo blend though when Mary and Cindy let loose as on Up the Ladder, Stoned Love, Time to Breakdown, they were knock outs.

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    Flo, Mary and Diane produced the best harmonies. Flo's voice gave the group a legit sound.
    Last edited by marv2; 06-29-2020 at 09:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I feel similarly about Mary and Flo blend though when Mary and Cindy let loose as on Up the Ladder, Stoned Love, Time to Breakdown, they were knock outs.
    the Andantes are all over Up The Ladder, provide ooooo’s on Stoned Love But other than that I don’t consider Mary and Cindy on Stone love anything more than serviceable……I agree they sound good on Break Down.

    there’s a reason producers added to or totally replaced Mary and Cindy in the studio frequently end it wasn’t group politics, it wasn’t favoritism and it wasn’t for punishment or extortion. Mary’s voice is an incredible instrument in the right niche, but I consider Cindy‘s voice to be quite bland.

    I think Cindy was a great replacement for Florence because she moved beautifully she was shapely in the beginning and seem to step right in. But when I saw them in person at Illinois state in 1967, Cindy appeared to me to be a non-entity compared to Flos surging personality. She came across better on television.

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    Jim--honestly, when I read the dullard comment I bursted out laughing! Nobody ever says anything bad about Cindy and that comment was so over-the-top that I laughed!

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    Actually according to Brenda Joyce Evans , Billie Rae Calvin and her were on Up the Ladder , they did their vocal parts Early on and Mary and Cindy did theirs after the farewell performance. Truth be told it doesn’t sounds like the andantes on either up the Ladder or Stoned Love we’ve been thru this already it does sound like Jean is singing with them plus an added voice or 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    the Andantes are all over Up The Ladder, provide ooooo’s on Stoned Love But other than that I don’t consider Mary and Cindy on Stone love anything more than serviceable……I agree they sound good on Break Down.

    there’s a reason producers added to or totally replaced Mary and Cindy in the studio frequently end it wasn’t group politics, it wasn’t favoritism and it wasn’t for punishment or extortion. Mary’s voice is an incredible instrument in the right niche, but I consider Cindy‘s voice to be quite bland.

    I think Cindy was a great replacement for Florence because she moved beautifully she was shapely in the beginning and seem to step right in. But when I saw them in person at Illinois state in 1967, Cindy appeared to me to be a non-entity compared to Flos surging personality. She came across better on television.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Actually according to Brenda Joyce Evans , Billie Rae Calvin and her were on Up the Ladder , they did their vocal parts Early on and Mary and Cindy did theirs after the farewell performance. Truth be told it doesn’t sounds like the andantes on either up the Ladder or Stoned Love we’ve been thru this already it does sound like Jean is singing with them plus an added voice or 2.
    Neither they or the Andantes are not on either of those records. Brenda and them may have done a scratch demo, but that is about all. They are not on any released version of "Up the Ladder to the Roof". A lot of these session singers get confused over that practice of recording demos and thinking they are recording the actual record.
    Last edited by marv2; 06-28-2020 at 09:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    the Andantes are all over Up The Ladder, provide ooooo’s on Stoned Love But other than that I don’t consider Mary and Cindy on Stone love anything more than serviceable……I agree they sound good on Break Down.

    there’s a reason producers added to or totally replaced Mary and Cindy in the studio frequently end it wasn’t group politics, it wasn’t favoritism and it wasn’t for punishment or extortion. Mary’s voice is an incredible instrument in the right niche, but I consider Cindy‘s voice to be quite bland.

    I think Cindy was a great replacement for Florence because she moved beautifully she was shapely in the beginning and seem to step right in. But when I saw them in person at Illinois state in 1967, Cindy appeared to me to be a non-entity compared to Flos surging personality. She came across better on television.
    actually i don't think the A's are on Stoned Love. It's just MJC doing 3 part background vocals

    as for the ladder, i think the A's [[or some additional singers) are layered in a bit similar to the approach on CW&P. MJC are the predominant backgrounds with the additional ones just filling in the sound. as opposed to songs like Going Down 3rd Time where you can clearly hear one background group doing one part and another doing a different part

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Jim--honestly, when I read the dullard comment I bursted out laughing! Nobody ever says anything bad about Cindy and that comment was so over-the-top that I laughed!
    I knew it wasn’t going to be popular to post, but it’s Honestly how I felt. I don’t think the group was as popular after Flo left. She was very, very popular with the fans. It was a confusing time: Cindy was on the Hollywood palace, Florence was all over the greatest hits album that just came out, and it was diana mary and Florence on the poster for the concert at Illinois State…… But we got Cindy.
    don’t get me wrong, Cindy is a sweetheart – probably the nicest of all the Supremes, certainly of the ones I met, but I truly missed Flo’s spark. Greatly missed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    actually i don't think the A's are on Stoned Love. It's just MJC doing 3 part background vocals

    as for the ladder, i think the A's [[or some additional singers) are layered in a bit similar to the approach on CW&P. MJC are the predominant backgrounds with the additional ones just filling in the sound. as opposed to songs like Going Down 3rd Time where you can clearly hear one background group doing one part and another doing a different part
    Jean said in an interview that she either never or almost never saying a background part with Mary and Cindy or Mary and lynda. She supported that statement by saying something to the effect that she might not even be there the day they did the backgrounds. Perhaps Stoned Love was the rare exception, but it still goes to my point that Mary and Cindy needed augmentation.
    Andy said on here that The Andantes were on up the ladder to the roof, but perhaps it was the other singers that he just labeled as the andantes or forgot it was those other girls. It’s still the absolute quintessential new supreme’s debut record…… Nothing they did before or since would’ve been more appropriate or fabulous. It came out just as Sun Gari was evaporating and the new group hit the ground running I still play that 45 to pieces. I wish the person who mixed The Supremes ultimate collection, We do the same thing for the new Supremes.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Neither they or the Andantes are not on either of those records. Brenda and them may have done a scratch demo, but that is about all. They are not on any released version of "Up the Ladder to the Roof". A lot of these session singers get confused over that practice of recording demos and thinking they are recording the actual record.
    tell that to Andy and George with the session annotations. LOL!

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Jean said in an interview that she either never or almost never saying a background part with Mary and Cindy or Mary and lynda. She supported that statement by saying something to the effect that she might not even be there the day they did the backgrounds. Perhaps Stoned Love was the rare exception, but it still goes to my point that Mary and Cindy needed augmentation.
    Andy said on here that The Andantes were on up the ladder to the roof, but perhaps it was the other singers that he just labeled as the andantes or forgot it was those other girls. It’s still the absolute quintessential new supreme’s debut record…… Nothing they did before or since would’ve been more appropriate or fabulous. It came out just as Sun Gari was evaporating and the new group hit the ground running I still play that 45 to pieces. I wish the person who mixed The Supremes ultimate collection, We do the same thing for the new Supremes.
    yeah i sort of use the term Andantes interchangeably. not really sure who all was doing female backing parts on motown tracks. I know there were more than just the actual A's.

    if you listen to the songs that have added vocals [[like the FJ album), you can often pick out which group is doing which part based on the channel the sound is coming through. for the FJ set, the A's seem to be clearly in one channel while M and C are in the other

    for Jimmy Webb [[unfortunately) it seems that the Blossoms and the supremes recorded together. they're not on separate tracks so there's no wiping out the B's in order to keep just M and L

    On Stoned Love, i've wondered if the "say it, say it like it is" part was the A's. but i'm not getting that separate channel distinction and if you listen to karaoke version with no lead, it's just the 3 girls - MCJ.

    I don't think jean did a lot of backgrounds but i think she did some early on. Ladder, Stoned. Loving Country. Jean has a higher soprano voice that Cindy so in much of the 3 part harmony work, Jean is singing 1st soprano. Like the real high note in Stoned Love after lead sings "i pray for peace and love, Amen. Woooooo"

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    and when he got kicked out of the Temps, didn't he try and absolve his contract with Motown? took them to court or something?

    I think had he NOT done that, motown might have been a bit more interested in his solo capabilities. a bit. but what he did was truly heretical. even Flo didn't do that in public until the 70s!

    so i guess they signed him to make the public feel that motown had NOT been wrong. had they immediately canned him, then it really would have looked like the company was an evil, vindictive entity. but they propped up the family myth and signed him after all of that drama. and he had a big hit too. My Whole World Ended is a great tune and it's success is certainly justified. but then they literally did NOTHING for him.

    not that he himself isn't to blame. clearly a tormented person and the death of Tammi certainly didn't help. but the drugs and attitude guaranteed he would never be a success longterm at motown
    I forgot about David's suit! Duh! Yeah, that didn't do him any favors nor endear him to the top spots at Motown. However, I think David was allowed to hang around all those years because, as I said before, the potential for massive greatness was there. The man didn't just have a great voice, he was a showman. He also had a very interesting look and carried himself with the air of a star. David was David's own worst enemy. Of course the label isn't going to throw it's full weight behind someone they can't trust to stay sober and out of trouble. But no doubt there was hope, at least for a time, that he'd do just that.

    It's sickening that when talking about the major stars of Motown, David Ruffin is not among them as solo artists. He should've been HUGE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i'm not too familiar either with Lynda's work outside of the group. she does have a more piercing tone to her voice and i think that's why she probably fits better in more of a lead role. I never thought she and M achieved a blend even remotely as good as M and C.
    Oh good, we're back to disagreeing.

    I think Mary and Lynda as backing were the exciting shot in the arm that the Supremes sound needed. For my taste, it gets no better than Flo and Mary. When Cindy comes in, the sound becomes a bit bland, although it does have interesting character. At their best, Mary and Cindy sound absolutely beautiful together. At worse, I wish the producers had decided to go with session singers. Mary and Cindy lacked the energy and gusto that was present when Flo was there. On the MOR stuff, like Funny Girl, Mary and Cindy actually fit in. On the r&b/pop stuff, not so much. I am not of the opinion that Mary and Cindy on "Love Child" would've worked. I just don't think they had it in them to keep up with the energy of Diana's lead, not unless the Andantes were also added to it.

    Lynda brought that robust energy that was present when Flo was in the group and Mary stepped her game back up. It's too bad that we never got a full studio album's worth of Lynda with the group without added vocal accompaniment.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    There were some shady things that went on with the Motorcity project. Some artists were not paid for songs they wrote, along with some recordings. Ian Levine told me that the majority of the recordings and videos were targeted for foreign markets. They did not really push the material here in America.
    That stuff wasn't taking off in America because it sucked. I do think Ian's heart was in the right place. Unfortunately he took these incredibly talented folks, most of whom Motown never bothered to really do anything with, and paired them up with the most karaoke, recorded in my cousin's basement on 20 year old equipment, tracks that he could conjure up, and for my taste it doesn't make for a pleasant listening experience. There are some exceptions, of course. The Marvelettes' "Secret Love Affair" I think had the makings, had it been remixed, to become a hit in the clubs, if not a modest one on general radio. I actually play it fairly often.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I wished Jean had not left the business altogether. I wished she would have continued to record new music and perhaps market it herself.
    Not too many artist had the know how or the financial capability to undertake such a task during that time. I wish wherever she landed that the person[[s) in charge took great care to handle Jean while also giving the public solid product. It only takes one somebody to really be in your corner. Remember 95 percent of success in the music business is luck. How different the stories of our favorite artists- successful and not as successful- might have been if they had run into or avoided a particular person[[s).

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    Admittedly, because I'm such a huge Jean fan, I couldn't care less who's singing backup when she's singing lead. Just a personal opinion.

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    When Cindy joined the group, they sounded so different live. I don’t know if Mary was trying to be noticed, or if she was trying to cover for Cindy’s lack of power, but it didn’t sound good. Florence was missed. The Flo, Mary combo was superb- or should I say Supreme.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    When Cindy joined the group, they sounded so different live. I don’t know if Mary was trying to be noticed, or if she was trying to cover for Cindy’s lack of power, but it didn’t sound good. Florence was missed. The Flo, Mary combo was superb- or should I say Supreme.
    I always thought she was trying to cover up for Cindy's different vocal ability. They did achieve a really nice blend in the studio and sometimes live. The Farewell album is not one of those examples though. Diana is the only one who sounds good IMO, except for Cindy's part of "Sunshine". She did a good job with that.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post

    I think Mary and Lynda as backing were the exciting shot in the arm that the Supremes sound needed.

    Lynda brought that robust energy that was present when Flo was in the group and Mary stepped her game back up. It's too bad that we never got a full studio album's worth of Lynda with the group without added vocal accompaniment.
    Absolutely.... Lynda reignited the Supremes flame with a spark that had been missing for a time. She was/is a a dynamic singer who also came across as fresh and exciting both visually as well as vocally. Had she not also decided to hang up her Supreme shoes, she would have been the perfect replacement as lead singer. Vocally i find her voice a ‘tad more commercial sounding then Scherrie.
    If Cindy had returned, i think an LMC combo would have been an exciting one with Mary and Cindy being featured to a much larger extent.
    M’s Birdsong must surely been frustrated many a time about not being given more to do. Her voice perfectly fits the public perception of what the Supremes sound should be at the time.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    When Cindy joined the group, they sounded so different live. I don’t know if Mary was trying to be noticed, or if she was trying to cover for Cindy’s lack of power, but it didn’t sound good. Florence was missed. The Flo, Mary combo was superb- or should I say Supreme.
    I think Mary was trying to be noticed. If you look at any concert shots of the Supremes with Cindy Birdsong check out how close the other group members sing into the mic compared to Cindy especially Mary. There are times when Cindy is right in the mix. The Hollywood Bowl performance Cindy is right in there but Live at The Talk Of The Town she's not very audible.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah i sort of use the term Andantes interchangeably. not really sure who all was doing female backing parts on motown tracks. I know there were more than just the actual A's.

    if you listen to the songs that have added vocals [[like the FJ album), you can often pick out which group is doing which part based on the channel the sound is coming through. for the FJ set, the A's seem to be clearly in one channel while M and C are in the other

    for Jimmy Webb [[unfortunately) it seems that the Blossoms and the supremes recorded together. they're not on separate tracks so there's no wiping out the B's in order to keep just M and L

    On Stoned Love, i've wondered if the "say it, say it like it is" part was the A's. but i'm not getting that separate channel distinction and if you listen to karaoke version with no lead, it's just the 3 girls - MCJ.

    I don't think jean did a lot of backgrounds but i think she did some early on. Ladder, Stoned. Loving Country. Jean has a higher soprano voice that Cindy so in much of the 3 part harmony work, Jean is singing 1st soprano. Like the real high note in Stoned Love after lead sings "i pray for peace and love, Amen. Woooooo"
    The Andantes are not even on "Stoned Love" . You are hallucinating.

  44. #144

    How did jean get along with her fellow performers at Motown?

    All of this thread makes me wonder what life was like at Motown for Jean. I've never seen any comments about how she fit into the Motown Family? Did they see her as the new kid on the block or the DRoss 2? Did Martha Reeves see her as a rival for material and attention? What about Wanda and the Marvelettes? Did her attitude exceed her accomplishments or did people reach out to guide her.

    Clay MacMurrray was on record as saying she was a sweetheart in the studio. Have there been any other produce or writer's comments?

  45. #145
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    I too would like to hear more about Jean from other members of Motown. That reminds me to re-read the booklet from the four tops/supremes duet CD. I think Abdul was interviewed for that release.

    I don't know how Jean felt but it seems from reading here that Jean was unhappy. I know people and I myself have been very down and unhappy at one point in live. And I'm sure some of you have been too. Being unhappy can cause some to become sick. It can be from not eating, lack of sleep, headaches etc. In my case I just stopped completely what I was doing and started a new chapter in life. I was like a zombie before that lol. Anyway, I think Jean will never share with us about what happened back then. We can all but speculate.

    As for Cindy which some talked about on this thread. Don't forget that Cindy came in the group believing that Diana was the leader "according to Mary's book". She had no opportunity to create her own persona on stage because by the time she joined most of their live and tv performances were staged even the in between song jokes. Watch/listen to their live in Amsterdam, Sweden, Talk of Town and others. Diana recites the same sentences over and over. Every show is a different show, our conductor drinks, a sweet song from and more. And everything was staged to highlight Diana. Cindy was only given a few words that Florence used to say like skinny might be in but....

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    From the complete studio duets. For the ones that don't have it.

    Duke recalled the high anticipation around the sessions. " Jean Terrell was very, very professional," he said. " She had a smooth way of singing, and a lovely way of presenting those songs. She was very comfortable to be around, and always had a big smile on her face.

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    i've never heard any significant stories from motown employees or artists bad mouthing Jean or criticizing things. Other than the story of Berry wanting to replace here at the farewell.

    my understanding from fan stories and feedback is that the bulk of the problems where within the group. Mary and Jean began to have differences rather early on. But IMO these were more differing views of opinion or ideas, not huge blow ups or fights. And i think many times the girls were very happy. just like with DMF, not every minute of every day was bickering and fights.

    Jean had had very limited recording and record label experience prior to Motown. and we all know that motown was a business, not a fairy land. Like most people, jean probably bought into the idea of a hip, cool, blackowned label where it's a big family. but the reality was it was a high-pressure business focused on turning a profit. my guess is that the label and Mary were focused on maintaining the glitzy, girly-girl image and jean wanted to evolve that. perhaps she felt that as the lead singer she would have some degree of leadership role within the group and it's direction. that does not appear to have been the case and i'm sure that would have become frustrating. especially as public interest and support for the group waned. Jean probably was saying things like "come on people - let's modernize and move forward." meanwhile they reverted back to DRATS songs like Somewhere and you're nobody.

  48. #148
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    I really haven't seen too much on how other Motowners felt about Jean. Mary had said in a CD note that her , Cindy and Jean were a good combination of personalities and got along well but in her books she said Jean was very reserved and withdrawn and once the group slipped in popularity she became difficult and would not always be "on" when performing to less and less people. Lynda had worked with her in both the Supremes and FLOs, Cindy had worked with her and Scherrie had worked with her in the FLOs. Just wondering what they had to say, same with A&M who recorded her and then she didn't promote her own work. I wonder if her beliefs may have caused issues with her companies and coworkers. She had a wonderful voice, but her stage personae lacked something. Still, even with Mary, you do not hear anything negative regarding her just a difference of opinions.Still, it would be nice to know how they felt personally especially since she took over for Diana Ross. That alone should have caused major curiosity about her personally.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    I really haven't seen too much on how other Motowners felt about Jean. Mary had said in a CD note that her , Cindy and Jean were a good combination of personalities and got along well but in her books she said Jean was very reserved and withdrawn and once the group slipped in popularity she became difficult and would not always be "on" when performing to less and less people. Lynda had worked with her in both the Supremes and FLOs, Cindy had worked with her and Scherrie had worked with her in the FLOs. Just wondering what they had to say, same with A&M who recorded her and then she didn't promote her own work. I wonder if her beliefs may have caused issues with her companies and coworkers. She had a wonderful voice, but her stage personae lacked something. Still, even with Mary, you do not hear anything negative regarding her just a difference of opinions.Still, it would be nice to know how they felt personally especially since she took over for Diana Ross. That alone should have caused major curiosity about her personally.
    Jean was popular with the guys at Motown when she first arrived. Frank Wilson liked her a lot. She got along very well with the Four Tops and others. When I met Jean, she was a doll!

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    Mary talked about Jean disrespecting her and how she felt like throttling her or something like that.

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