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  1. #51
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    I've said before, reading much of what is written about Jean personality wise, she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more. Seems Jean was unlikely to change her mind once she made a choice regardless of others influence. She worked very hard...especially considering she was coming from a much less visible and demanding entertainment career. She successfully moved the group passed the DRATS era...Assuming that she was a salaried [[and sales royalty receiving) employee, it's understandable that after a years public acceptance she should have had a better deal and % of partnership rites....This, as we all know was not Mary's doing.
    When the huge sales on singles started slipping, her bottom line must have taken a big hit...and it was the same workload travel wise, and time away from home....Jean supposedly by nature had a stronger "happy homebody" streak that is hard to satisfy being away most of the time. Maybe when she signed on, she was aware the schedule would be packed for a set period, and then once radio got used to the new sound [[they seemed to be thru River Deep) and the public got used to the new group, the touring would ease up a bit...The groups road money was still off setting recording budgets and feeding the company.
    The problem escalated very quickly once Cindy was gone...with Lynda the group of 3 only had 1/3rd die hard dedication to the name, the legacy and the company. The group already experienced one uncooperative and unhappy member with Flo. If Jean and quickly Lynda were that unhappy, best scenario did happen bringing much loved Cindy back and getting Scherrie...MSC was a great group with high potential and appeal...it blew up beating a dead tired, too brassy, too fast paced Vegas act and replacing Cindy a 2nd time. Having her there was important...she added stability and familiarity.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    I've said before, reading much of what is written about Jean personality wise, she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more. Seems Jean was unlikely to change her mind once she made a choice regardless of others influence. She worked very hard...especially considering she was coming from a much less visible and demanding entertainment career. She successfully moved the group passed the DRATS era...Assuming that she was a salaried [[and sales royalty receiving) employee, it's understandable that after a years public acceptance she should have had a better deal and % of partnership rites....This, as we all know was not Mary's doing.
    When the huge sales on singles started slipping, her bottom line must have taken a big hit...and it was the same workload travel wise, and time away from home....Jean supposedly by nature had a stronger "happy homebody" streak that is hard to satisfy being away most of the time. Maybe when she signed on, she was aware the schedule would be packed for a set period, and then once radio got used to the new sound [[they seemed to be thru River Deep) and the public got used to the new group, the touring would ease up a bit...The groups road money was still off setting recording budgets and feeding the company.
    The problem escalated very quickly once Cindy was gone...with Lynda the group of 3 only had 1/3rd die hard dedication to the name, the legacy and the company. The group already experienced one uncooperative and unhappy member with Flo. If Jean and quickly Lynda were that unhappy, best scenario did happen bringing much loved Cindy back and getting Scherrie...MSC was a great group with high potential and appeal...it blew up beating a dead tired, too brassy, too fast paced Vegas act and replacing Cindy a 2nd time. Having her there was important...she added stability and familiarity.
    I think you perfectly characterized the situation with Jean when you said "she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more....." I remember there was a time where Jean wouldn't even do the choreography on stage to the songs, other times she just stood and sang a song however she felt on a certain day.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I think you perfectly characterized the situation with Jean when you said "she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more....." I remember there was a time where Jean wouldn't even do the choreography on stage to the songs, other times she just stood and sang a song however she felt on a certain day.
    Agree, but she had the voice! The New Sups jumped over the hurdle and made a name for themselves.

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    I keep hoping Jean will resurface...even though I am a huge Scherrie fan, when Jean left the FLO's it was over for me. I think the most recent performance I've seen is her guest spot on Preston Glass' WELCOME HOME...I have also never heard a satisfyingly candid interview with Jean.

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    I know people are going to hate me for this--but I never liked Jean's voice that much. She sounds good on some songs, but on others she screeches. When she's in a lower register she is fine. I know Berry got it in his head that leads singers had to sing soprano, but I don't think that is true at all. Gladys Knight, Anita Baker, Darlene Love, etc are all altos and even Diana Ross finally clicked when she was recorded in her lower register on Where Did Our Love Go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    Agree, but she had the voice! The New Sups jumped over the hurdle and made a name for themselves.
    Oh, she most definitely had the voice! Jean sang so well, she could make a grown man cry. No one could ever question her vocal ability. She was one of the best to have recorded for Motown.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    I keep hoping Jean will resurface...even though I am a huge Scherrie fan, when Jean left the FLO's it was over for me. I think the most recent performance I've seen is her guest spot on Preston Glass' WELCOME HOME...I have also never heard a satisfyingly candid interview with Jean.
    Same here! I saw Jean lead the FLOs in concert in Detroit. Jean had not lost a thing vocally at that time. I was with Esther Gordy Edwards. Every now and then I look over at Mrs. Edwards while Jean was singing and she would be beaming like a proud mother!

    Jean has never done a good, in depth interview. It is long overdue.

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    I prefer Scherrie. She never sounded screechy.

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    I think Jean, Gladys and Thelma were arguably the best female vocalists at Motown followed by Brenda.

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    Luke when you say that are you saying you think they were the most innately talented, the most technically skilled, or are you saying you just like their voices the best?This is a sincere question. I love Gladys' voice the best of the women you listed, I just like her sound, but I'd probably say Jean Terrell was more technically skilled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    the entire point of getting a Jean Terrell was NOT to get another Diana Ross...the group didn't need that, and Berry did not need a competitor in his own stable.
    the group did not need or want a star within the group setting again...increasing the vocal contributions and visibility of Mary and Cindy was a very noticeable and welcome change.
    The scenario of the group having a more successful beginning than Ross chart wise, and the possibility of that continuing must have kept Berry up nights...lets remember in the 70's Diana's singles generally petered out short of the top 10...4 times at #1...but not a top ten hit if it didn't go all the way
    There was only one Diana Ross. Motown couldn't duplicate that one if they put out an open call around the world. However, the Supremes, to the world, had a certain something that Ross brought to the group that made the group not only audibly pleasing but visually as well. Individually, Florence and Mary brought their own brand of uniqueness to the group which complimented Diana's energy, which is why while Flo was a part of the group, the group had a group essence, even when the focus was sometimes shifted to Diana. By the time DRATS really got going it was primarily a Diana Ross showcase and, IMO, any two women could've supported her from Mary and Cindy's positions, and it's quite possible no one would've minded a whole lot. [[That last statement is a bit extreme but I'm not in the mood to simplify it.) The Supremes as a name had made their mark. To replace Diana Ross with someone who was more than less her opposite was sort of dumb. Now that little bit extra that made the Supremes pop is gone.

    Raising Mary and Cindy's visibility was a good move, but there was nothing overly exciting or entertaining about it, from my perspective. You give them Jean and the group lacks a lot of the overall entertainment factor that was present when Diana was still a member, although it's worth pointing out that vocally Jean ushered them into the 70s and the sound was often on point. I do think any replacement for Ross was going to need to be group focused. Gordy wasn't going to get behind any grooming for potential Diana Ross rivals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    I keep hoping Jean will resurface...even though I am a huge Scherrie fan, when Jean left the FLO's it was over for me. I think the most recent performance I've seen is her guest spot on Preston Glass' WELCOME HOME...I have also never heard a satisfyingly candid interview with Jean.
    Agree 100 percent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I think Jean, Gladys and Thelma were arguably the best female vocalists at Motown followed by Brenda.
    What I do love about Motown [[well there are many things I love) is that they signed such varied female vocalists. I never argue "best" as it's subjective and no one ever seems to really be able to define what makes one singer better than another, at least not to my personal satisfaction. To me voices fall into two categories: good or bad. No in betweens for me. Diana, Jean, Florence, Martha, Gladys K, Gladys H, Kim, Brenda, Thelma, Hattie, LaBrenda, Wanda, Ann, Yvonne...all so different, yet oh so good at the same time. And that's barely scraping the barrel. I could mention tons more but aint got that kind of time.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I was with Esther Gordy Edwards.....
    Translated means Esther Gordy Edwards was somewhere in the same audience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    There was only one Diana Ross. Motown couldn't duplicate that one if they put out an open call around the world. However, the Supremes, to the world, had a certain something that Ross brought to the group that made the group not only audibly pleasing but visually as well. Individually, Florence and Mary brought their own brand of uniqueness to the group which complimented Diana's energy, which is why while Flo was a part of the group, the group had a group essence, even when the focus was sometimes shifted to Diana. By the time DRATS really got going it was primarily a Diana Ross showcase and, IMO, any two women could've supported her from Mary and Cindy's positions, and it's quite possible no one would've minded a whole lot. [[That last statement is a bit extreme but I'm not in the mood to simplify it.) The Supremes as a name had made their mark. To replace Diana Ross with someone who was more than less her opposite was sort of dumb. Now that little bit extra that made the Supremes pop is gone.

    Raising Mary and Cindy's visibility was a good move, but there was nothing overly exciting or entertaining about it, from my perspective. You give them Jean and the group lacks a lot of the overall entertainment factor that was present when Diana was still a member, although it's worth pointing out that vocally Jean ushered them into the 70s and the sound was often on point. I do think any replacement for Ross was going to need to be group focused. Gordy wasn't going to get behind any grooming for potential Diana Ross rivals.
    great points Ran

    it's almost like Diana Ross is a drug lolol [[and i mean that in a good way lol). during the DMF era, you did have 3 engaging personalities and within the structure of the group and performances, each still had some opportunity to shine. Obviously Diana shown the brightest and emerged as the star. And her presence and contribution to this thing called The Supremes was so large, dazzling, etc that it was essentially a 'drug.' as the years continued and the group became DRATS, it's like we were being fed even more and more of this drug. until we were addicts and any alternate approach or concept of "The Supremes" would be like going through withdrawal.

    all of the women in the group were talented. some were extremely talented vocalists and decently talented entertainers. some were wonderful entertainers and decent vocalists. some were both.

    But no other member of The Supremes, no other singer at motown [[male or female) and frankly very, very few other singers in general, have this absolutely magnetic and hypnotic singer/entertainer presence as Diana Ross. it's why she's one of the most successful performers in recorded history.

    and anyone that was going to replace had a Mount Everest to climb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    Translated means Esther Gordy Edwards was somewhere in the same audience.
    LMAO or was there the night before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    great points Ran

    it's almost like Diana Ross is a drug lolol [[and i mean that in a good way lol). during the DMF era, you did have 3 engaging personalities and within the structure of the group and performances, each still had some opportunity to shine. Obviously Diana shown the brightest and emerged as the star. And her presence and contribution to this thing called The Supremes was so large, dazzling, etc that it was essentially a 'drug.' as the years continued and the group became DRATS, it's like we were being fed even more and more of this drug. until we were addicts and any alternate approach or concept of "The Supremes" would be like going through withdrawal.

    all of the women in the group were talented. some were extremely talented vocalists and decently talented entertainers. some were wonderful entertainers and decent vocalists. some were both.

    But no other member of The Supremes, no other singer at motown [[male or female) and frankly very, very few other singers in general, have this absolutely magnetic and hypnotic singer/entertainer presence as Diana Ross. it's why she's one of the most successful performers in recorded history.

    and anyone that was going to replace had a Mount Everest to climb
    Diana Ross has the charisma that make legends and superstars imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I think Jean, Gladys and Thelma were arguably the best female vocalists at Motown followed by Brenda.
    I don't know how anyone could argue with that. Martha in her prime could also give them a run for their money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    Diana Ross has the charisma that make legends and superstars imo.
    agreed. it's not that others weren't talented. of course they were. but diana was crazy talented. an anomaly

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    Good addition Marv. I agree!

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    If pulling someone already associated with the label was thought of, I am surprised Carolyn Crawford wasn't considered in '69....or even Blinky. I only became aware of CC in the early 90's through a 5 CD Motorcity Ian Levine comp, and Blinky fairly recently. Sound wise, they would have been a better fit than Tammi or Syreeta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    If pulling someone already associated with the label was thought of, I am surprised Carolyn Crawford wasn't considered in '69....or even Blinky. I only became aware of CC in the early 90's through a 5 CD Motorcity Ian Levine comp, and Blinky fairly recently. Sound wise, they would have been a better fit than Tammi or Syreeta.
    Carolyn Crawford would have definitely made a good replacement. Good call! Ultimately though, Jean Terrell was the ultimate and perfect candidate in my opinion. Thinking about it, She must have scared the shit out of a certain other singer. Why? Well because Berry Gordy just happen to go out for drinks one night at the Fountainbleu [[sp?) in Miami and without even trying real hard found a superb replacement for Diana Ross in the Supremes [[the biggest female act in the world at that time!). Some concluded that Jean Terrell was even a much better singer. This could not have done Miss Ross' self esteem much good..........LOL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    If pulling someone already associated with the label was thought of, I am surprised Carolyn Crawford wasn't considered in '69....or even Blinky. I only became aware of CC in the early 90's through a 5 CD Motorcity Ian Levine comp, and Blinky fairly recently. Sound wise, they would have been a better fit than Tammi or Syreeta.
    all interesting candidates

    Mary mentions that she was a little surprised that Berry selected Jean so quickly. It's of no surprise that it appears neither M or C were heavily involved in the search. sure they got to meet Jean and see how it worked. and i guess if they were wildly opposed to jean at the start and said so, berry and motown would have kept looking

    but mary makes no real mention of the search process or being at all involved in it. so maybe there were internal, corporate discussions about each of these women. sure would be interesting to have some of those memos and meeting notes revealed!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    great points Ran

    it's almost like Diana Ross is a drug lolol [[and i mean that in a good way lol). during the DMF era, you did have 3 engaging personalities and within the structure of the group and performances, each still had some opportunity to shine. Obviously Diana shown the brightest and emerged as the star. And her presence and contribution to this thing called The Supremes was so large, dazzling, etc that it was essentially a 'drug.' as the years continued and the group became DRATS, it's like we were being fed even more and more of this drug. until we were addicts and any alternate approach or concept of "The Supremes" would be like going through withdrawal.

    all of the women in the group were talented. some were extremely talented vocalists and decently talented entertainers. some were wonderful entertainers and decent vocalists. some were both.

    But no other member of The Supremes, no other singer at motown [[male or female) and frankly very, very few other singers in general, have this absolutely magnetic and hypnotic singer/entertainer presence as Diana Ross. it's why she's one of the most successful performers in recorded history.

    and anyone that was going to replace had a Mount Everest to climb
    Flo and Mary were lucky in a sense. Prior to them becoming a global phenomenon, they had approximately five years with Diana, cultivating their image, their sound, their chemistry together. Mary's first book puts Diana's official designation [[ie Gordy's verbal mandate) of lead singer as approximately late 63-early 64. But there's no question that Diana was the unofficial lead singer of the group from 1961-1964, yet there's also no question that they were as much a group as any other group of the day.

    So when the girls became the legendary Supremes, there was room for each girl's identity. Sure, one girl got most of the leads and by extension a good amount of attention. It also didn't hurt that she was a little bit "extra" in nearly every way. But they were separate identities that equaled this incredible entertainment entity and as such, Flo and Mary enjoyed their own individual fame.

    DRATS was something else entirely. That really was a solo artist with prominent background performers. It's interesting to note just how many TV performances DRATS did where Mary and Cindy are right up under Ross most of the time, like the Fats Waller medley. At first glance one wants to say "Hey, they're still a group here", but if you really pay attention this is all Diana Ross with vocal and dance accompaniment, not the Supremes, a singing group. [[It is, for the record, probably my favorite DRATS performance. Perfect in every way.) My point being, there was no room for Mary and Cindy's individualism the way there was when Flo was in the group. This was a test run. Diana Ross left the Supremes on the same night Florence did.

    What set Diana Ross apart from the other Supremes and, even most of the other Motown acts is that she was a total entertainer. She moved on the stage, gracefully. Her smile really could light up a room. She had this ability to pull the audience into her every move, every word, every look. She was a fashionista. She was gorgeous. And she could flat out sing. Back her up with a full orchestra and she'll kill it. Throw her in front of a Funk Brother's groove and she'll knock it out of the park. Throw her a mic and no music and she'll still captivate. She possessed a magic that sometimes may have been difficult to even define. But you knew she had it. [[I think only Michael Jackson was the other Motown star to have that thing. I also think that if David Ruffin had gotten out of his own way, and then had the kind of attention that Diana got from the big guy, the same might be said of him also.)

    Diana had the ingredients from day one, it just took someone to help her hone it. Would her full talent have been realized at Stax or Atlantic or Columbia? One might argue no. On the flipside it's always interesting to ponder what might have become of Florence or even Mary had they gone to another label where someone was more interested in their particular skills. But Diana Ross was definitely a diamond in the rough that, to Gordy's credit, he saw the value in and we all reaped the rewards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    If pulling someone already associated with the label was thought of, I am surprised Carolyn Crawford wasn't considered in '69....or even Blinky. I only became aware of CC in the early 90's through a 5 CD Motorcity Ian Levine comp, and Blinky fairly recently. Sound wise, they would have been a better fit than Tammi or Syreeta.
    I've never seen Carolyn perform so I don't know how good a fit she would have been. Blinky's sound would've been all wrong. That change at lead would've been too jarring for the general public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Carolyn Crawford would have definitely made a good replacement. Good call! Ultimately though, Jean Terrell was the ultimate and perfect candidate in my opinion. Thinking about it, She must have scared the shit out of a certain other singer. Why? Well because Berry Gordy just happen to go out for drinks one night at the Fountainbleu [[sp?) in Miami and without even trying real hard found a superb replacement for Diana Ross in the Supremes [[the biggest female act in the world at that time!). Some concluded that Jean Terrell was even a much better singer. This could not have done Miss Ross' self esteem much good..........LOL!
    Yup, Diana was shaking in her boots about a singer who was taking her place in a group that Diana probably secretly wished she could've ditched two years before. I find it hard to believe that Diana was thinking about much of anything that didn't concern her own career. While I think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she raised an eyebrow when her first single didn't do as well as the Jean led Supremes' first single did, I also think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she lowered that eyebrow when none of the Jean led Supremes' subsequent singles- and certainly none of their albums- came close to the enormity that was "Aint No Mountain High Enough" or her first solo album. Although Diana is probably still wondering where Jean's movie career went.

    In all seriousness, I do think if there was any real concern about who would win the "rivalry", it was more on Gordy's mind than Ross'. And again, at some point any idiot could see who was going to win that race. And as we sit here 50 years later, we can safely answer who the winner ended up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    all interesting candidates

    Mary mentions that she was a little surprised that Berry selected Jean so quickly. It's of no surprise that it appears neither M or C were heavily involved in the search. sure they got to meet Jean and see how it worked. and i guess if they were wildly opposed to jean at the start and said so, berry and motown would have kept looking

    but mary makes no real mention of the search process or being at all involved in it. so maybe there were internal, corporate discussions about each of these women. sure would be interesting to have some of those memos and meeting notes revealed!!
    Yeah, I would love to know what exactly went into the search. It's so interesting to me that in this forum we always ponder these "important" Supremes related questions but in all the books that ever end up being published, most of this kind of inside the music or inside the business information never makes it onto the page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    all interesting candidates

    Mary mentions that she was a little surprised that Berry selected Jean so quickly. It's of no surprise that it appears neither M or C were heavily involved in the search. sure they got to meet Jean and see how it worked. and i guess if they were wildly opposed to jean at the start and said so, berry and motown would have kept looking

    but mary makes no real mention of the search process or being at all involved in it. so maybe there were internal, corporate discussions about each of these women. sure would be interesting to have some of those memos and meeting notes revealed!!
    I agree that it would be interesting. Scherrie Payne has mentioned that her name came up as a potential replacement for Diana but then someone else said that she was more interested in her schooling. But she doesn't mention who these people were or how they even considered her, albeit briefly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Yup, Diana was shaking in her boots about a singer who was taking her place in a group that Diana probably secretly wished she could've ditched two years before. I find it hard to believe that Diana was thinking about much of anything that didn't concern her own career. While I think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she raised an eyebrow when her first single didn't do as well as the Jean led Supremes' first single did, I also think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she lowered that eyebrow when none of the Jean led Supremes' subsequent singles- and certainly none of their albums- came close to the enormity that was "Aint No Mountain High Enough" or her first solo album. Although Diana is probably still wondering where Jean's movie career went.

    In all seriousness, I do think if there was any real concern about who would win the "rivalry", it was more on Gordy's mind than Ross'. And again, at some point any idiot could see who was going to win that race. And as we sit here 50 years later, we can safely answer who the winner ended up.
    Look, Diane has always been insecure [[or at least that is the excuse she used for most of her bad behavior towards others in those days.). Berry Gordy is a very smart man. He knew if he could prove that there were countless talented singers out there that just needed a break, he could use that fact as leverage to keep Diane in her place whenever she got too big-headed.[[She told a nationwide audience on the Tonight Show that she couldn't be replace.....HA!) She went further to "secure" her position by getting pregnant the next year and the rest is history!

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    I agree that it would be interesting. Scherrie Payne has mentioned that her name came up as a potential replacement for Diana but then someone else said that she was more interested in her schooling. But she doesn't mention who these people were or how they even considered her, albeit briefly.
    Scherrie's name came up because Mrs. Farley, her mother mentioned her as a possible candidate to the Gordys at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Look, Diane has always been insecure [[or at least that is the excuse she used for most of her bad behavior towards others in those days.). Berry Gordy is a very smart man. He knew if he could prove that there were countless talented singers out there that just needed a break, he could use that fact as leverage to keep Diane in her place whenever she got too big-headed.[[She told a nationwide audience on the Tonight Show that she couldn't be replace.....HA!) She went further to "secure" her position by getting pregnant the next year and the rest is history!
    I'm sure she was insecure, like most of the girls her age. Shit, who could've been more insecure than Mary Wilson? That doesn't mean at every move, every thought is driven by insecurity. By the time Jean Terrell came into the group Diana was already a firm legend, the lead singer on 12 number one hits and some additional top 10 hits. This wasn't the Diane Ross who's group hadn't gotten a hit yet. I stand firm in my position: Diana Ross probably didn't give much of a second thought to Jean Terrell.

    Diana's position in Gordy's life was firmly in place by the time of Rhonda's conception. Gordy's refusal to marry her was because he saw her as a meal ticket above all else. He wasn't pushing her to the side for any reason. He had put in over a decade of hard work in turning that woman into a superstar. Diana wasn't going anywhere. If she secured anything with getting pregnant, then Gordy also secured his position by getting her pregnant. Or has it been so long that you've forgotten it takes two people to create a baby?

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    once the girls were apart, there have been quite a few stories of some goodwill among them. Randy talks about how in 71, Diana and her mother came to the supremes' show and visited them backstage. I think she honestly wanted them to succeed and wished them no ill will. But the reality was she was crazy busy with her own life.

    Diana left the group when she wasn't quite 26.

    I want every person on this board to think back to their own life. where were you at that age? what successes and failures had you experienced? where you anywhere as mature or thoughtful as you are today [[assuming you're now years beyond the age of 26 lol). These were young and immature girls that were thrown into an adult world of business and profits. it was NOT about sisterly bonds and sentimentality. it was about money and earning more of it. that's a ton of pressure for a young person to carry and any one of you would have fucked it up just as much as Mary and Diana did. myself included!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    once the girls were apart, there have been quite a few stories of some goodwill among them. Randy talks about how in 71, Diana and her mother came to the supremes' show and visited them backstage. I think she honestly wanted them to succeed and wished them no ill will. But the reality was she was crazy busy with her own life.

    Diana left the group when she wasn't quite 26.

    I want every person on this board to think back to their own life. where were you at that age? what successes and failures had you experienced? where you anywhere as mature or thoughtful as you are today [[assuming you're now years beyond the age of 26 lol). These were young and immature girls that were thrown into an adult world of business and profits. it was NOT about sisterly bonds and sentimentality. it was about money and earning more of it. that's a ton of pressure for a young person to carry and any one of you would have fucked it up just as much as Mary and Diana did. myself included!!
    Couldn't agree with this post more!! Bravo!!

    Sup we've been on a roll here lately with the agreeing. It doesn't feel right. What's happening?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Couldn't agree with this post more!! Bravo!!

    Sup we've been on a roll here lately with the agreeing. It doesn't feel right. What's happening?
    it's cuz you're not making all sorts of you typical inaccurate posts or insane theories LOLOLOLOLOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    once the girls were apart, there have been quite a few stories of some goodwill among them. Randy talks about how in 71, Diana and her mother came to the supremes' show and visited them backstage. I think she honestly wanted them to succeed and wished them no ill will. But the reality was she was crazy busy with her own life.

    Diana left the group when she wasn't quite 26.

    I want every person on this board to think back to their own life. where were you at that age? what successes and failures had you experienced? where you anywhere as mature or thoughtful as you are today [[assuming you're now years beyond the age of 26 lol). These were young and immature girls that were thrown into an adult world of business and profits. it was NOT about sisterly bonds and sentimentality. it was about money and earning more of it. that's a ton of pressure for a young person to carry and any one of you would have fucked it up just as much as Mary and Diana did. myself included!!
    Preach friend Preach.

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    None of these ladies were in charge of their own career....Even DR. Signing with Motown meant you showed up and sang, and took direction. Berry made the decisions and delegated to managers to see that it was carried out. Don't want to comply?... FLO was a perfect example...popular group member or not....there was low tolerance for resistance in the Supremes. Even after Jean joined. The company was still watching closely....until Mary and Pedro too over management.
    Martha and the Tempts were able to [[and did) fire and vote out independently during their groups peak years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    None of these ladies were in charge of their own career....Even DR. Signing with Motown meant you showed up and sang, and took direction. Berry made the decisions and delegated to managers to see that it was carried out. Don't want to comply?... FLO was a perfect example...popular group member or not....there was low tolerance for resistance in the Supremes. Even after Jean joined. The company was still watching closely....until Mary and Pedro too over management.
    Martha and the Tempts were able to [[and did) fire and vote out independently during their groups peak years.
    yep - exactly right

    I think the temps were able to ditch Ruffin because 1) they were men and 2) they had Eddie kendricks too. Plus gordy didn't really have interest in develop Ruffin into a male superstar so who cares. I know the "male" part is a bit blunt but you know sexism was rampant in motown

    as for MRATV - i think by the time she started to ditch Vandellas, Martha's drug use was going pretty strong. and Berry's interest in the group was not very strong. Since the vandellas were just backing singers, he probably didn't care that much

    I've wondered about the Vandellas situation. with Martha's drug and mental issues, were Rosalind and Betty really the root causes of the problems?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    it's cuz you're not making all sorts of you typical inaccurate posts or insane theories LOLOLOLOLOL
    Look, that really is Florence singing lead on "Let Me Go the Right Way" and Diana was given credit for it because it was their best performing single until "Lovelight" and Motown didn't want to say it was Flo. I have family in Detroit and they've told me all about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    None of these ladies were in charge of their own career....Even DR. Signing with Motown meant you showed up and sang, and took direction. Berry made the decisions and delegated to managers to see that it was carried out. Don't want to comply?... FLO was a perfect example...popular group member or not....there was low tolerance for resistance in the Supremes. Even after Jean joined. The company was still watching closely....until Mary and Pedro too over management.
    Martha and the Tempts were able to [[and did) fire and vote out independently during their groups peak years.
    Martha didn't fire anybody during her peak success or otherwise. Both Betty and Roz were signed to Motown. Martha may have gone to Berry or whomever and said she was sick of either of them, but she didn't have the power to let anybody go. Once she hired Lois and then Sandy, Motown was basically past the point of prioritizing Martha anyway, so at that point they probably couldn't have cared less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yep - exactly right

    I think the temps were able to ditch Ruffin because 1) they were men and 2) they had Eddie kendricks too. Plus gordy didn't really have interest in develop Ruffin into a male superstar so who cares. I know the "male" part is a bit blunt but you know sexism was rampant in motown

    as for MRATV - i think by the time she started to ditch Vandellas, Martha's drug use was going pretty strong. and Berry's interest in the group was not very strong. Since the vandellas were just backing singers, he probably didn't care that much

    I've wondered about the Vandellas situation. with Martha's drug and mental issues, were Rosalind and Betty really the root causes of the problems?
    I don't know how strong Martha's drug use was at that point. It's been eons since I've read her book but I was under the impression that her drug use became a problem at the very end of the 60s and both Betty and Roz were long gone.

    Motown let it's male acts pretty much handle their own business. There were times when Gordy stepped in, especially with Marvin, and of course he famously dragged his heels on allowing Marvin and Stevie to have artistic control. But while Gman speaks truth to a point, those rigid rules seem to only have applied to his female acts and not so much his male acts.

    As to why David was allowed to be fired from the group, I think it was three things:

    1) While David was a crucial element to the group's success, he wasn't the only focal point. Eddie was right there with him and as much an identifiable component of the sound. I imagine things may have been different if David was the Diana of the group.

    2) Things were so bad that someone was bound to get his ass whooped. Had David been forced upon the others, there may have been a showdown that might have even become public. Tension was high.

    3) Most importantly, I think Gordy and company saw the possibilities of David Ruffin superstar. Gordy was preoccupied with Diana, so nobody at the company was going to get his hands on attention. [[Only MJ would succeed in that, at least for a time, and as I said previously, MJ was the only other artist at Motown that had superstar written all over him.) But I think the fact that David was signed to the label as a solo artist for many years suggests that someone was waiting for something to click. It never happened, but David was a superstar waiting to happen. Had he been able to get himself together, who knows how his story would've eventually played out. But removing him from the Tempts still meant that Motown made money: the Tempts continue their success, David has solo success. It's not like when Flo was offered a solo deal at Motown. She would've recorded some stuff but it probably wouldn't have been released until a Motown Unreleased compilation.

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    I don't think so, RanRan. Motown knew that David's irresponsible behavior was due to drug use and that put him out of the running for any kind of push by Motown as a solo star. It's not like other Motown singers weren't doing drugs as well but they weren't in your face with it as David was. Berry Gordy didn't care that David was fired--Dennis came in effortlessly and the Tempts never missed a beat. Ruffin's drug problems were legendary and he earned his reputation.

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    Berry Gordy was very interested in the success of Marvin and Stevie.

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    Yeah Berry wanted the money people like Marvin and Stevie were generating, but they were actually ushering in a new way of doing things that Berry resisted. The 70's were the era of the singer/songwriter and that spelled the end of Motown's assembly line approach to making records. It was inevitable. In the 70's kids like me wanted "legit" songs that were written by the artists I followed. We saw rock artists and visionaries and didn't want what we saw as manufactured pop stars

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Berry Gordy was very interested in the success of Marvin and Stevie.
    ....and The Jackson 5!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    None of these ladies were in charge of their own career....Even DR. Signing with Motown meant you showed up and sang, and took direction. Berry made the decisions and delegated to managers to see that it was carried out. Don't want to comply?... FLO was a perfect example...popular group member or not....there was low tolerance for resistance in the Supremes. Even after Jean joined. The company was still watching closely....until Mary and Pedro too over management.
    Martha and the Tempts were able to [[and did) fire and vote out independently during their groups peak years.
    Correct! That was the main reason why Gladys Knight did not want to sign with Motown in the first place. Too many of these guys on this forum give the artists too much power that they never held while with Motown.

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    It's really a shame that the Motorcity project wasn't met with more success...Having the USA launch in Detroit was a very smart move...but it just didn't get enough attention elsewhere save for the UK soul freaks....seems it was too big a project to finance and manage properly.
    I was VERY excited to see both Jean and Scherrie actively recording....the JSL unit was a legitimate 70's Supremes reunion. I WANT TO BE LOVED and the duet with the Originals BACK BY POPULAR DEMAND were excellent recordings....as far as the solo work done....I think some of Lynda's tracks had great potential.

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    Yep, the Motown rule was “you show up and sing.” And the biggest stars in the world were made. When Ross wanted total control and left Motown, everything collapsed. She still demands total control. Such a damn pity because she has no talent in that arena.

    I always said that a college course on “how not to manage one’s career” could focus on Ross after leaving Motown. She totally ignored what made her famous in the first place, and falsely believed it was all about her.
    Last edited by Circa 1824; 06-27-2020 at 08:27 AM.

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    GMan--I have to say that I have never been a fan of Lynda's until recently. It's not like I ever had anything against her, I just didn't know anything about her. Now that I've seen the old clips I can honestly say she had the personality to carry the lead.

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    Berry knew that for the Supremes to continue as a hit makers, they needed a singer with a radio friendly commercial sounding pop/r& b voice. For that alone Jean was the perfect fit. Her voice is totally unique. You can be as vivacious and charismatic as is possible, but without that special sound it’s going to be much tougher. Top twenty pop hits ended once Jean left.
    He also appears to have thought that the new Supremes would be more readily accepted by joe public if their lead singer had a voice quite similar to Diana’s. That’s probably why he opted for Syreeta when he got cold feet about Jean.
    Last edited by Ollie9; 06-27-2020 at 01:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Berry knew that for the Supremes to continue as a hit makers, they needed a singer with a radio friendly commercial sounding pop/r& b voice. For that alone Jean was the perfect fit. Her voice is totally unique. You can be as vivacious and charismatic as is possible, but without that special sound it’s going to be much tougher. Top twenty pop hits ended once Jean left.
    He also appears to have thought that the new Supremes would be more readily accepted by joe public if their lead singer had a voice quite similar to Diana’s. That’s probably why he opted for Syreeta when he got cold feet about Jean.
    Syreeta had been with Motown almost 3 years by 1970, I wonder why they did not try to do anything with her in terms of recording and releasing material by her?

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