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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    In a 1973 interview with Mike Douglas he asks if they, the Supremes, get tired of hearing that the group is not the same without Diana Ross. Watch the video on Youtube. Jean mentioned the word exuberant. She says that good singers just want to stand up and sing and not have to be so exuberant. This gives an indication of how she was thinking.
    Yes, I remember that and she even stated that Diana no longer did that anymore. Flash forward to the next groupings of Supremes during the disco era and all three members were exuberantly choreographed, no matter who was singing lead. I can imagine Jean got very frustrated with the comparisons year after year, even though some mentioned they thought she was a better singer.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Yes, I remember that and she even stated that Diana no longer did that anymore. Flash forward to the next groupings of Supremes during the disco era and all three members were exuberantly choreographed, no matter who was singing lead. I can imagine Jean got very frustrated with the comparisons year after year, even though some mentioned they thought she was a better singer.
    She also was better looking.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Yes, I remember that and she even stated that Diana no longer did that anymore. Flash forward to the next groupings of Supremes during the disco era and all three members were exuberantly choreographed, no matter who was singing lead. I can imagine Jean got very frustrated with the comparisons year after year, even though some mentioned they thought she was a better singer.
    Jean was probably gonna leave the group sooner than later anyway. Disco was starting to creep into the mainstream in 1973, the year that she left. If she didn't leave in 1973, she would've left in 1974. As it turned out, her leaving the Supremes in 1973 started a nearly two-year, I wanna say entanglement because of recent events lol, with Motown before they could sign new contracts for Mary and Jean and Lynda's replacements: Scherrie Payne and Cindy Birdsong.

    It's sad the Supremes didn't take more of an advantage to present a Black Power front after Stone Love [[I refuse to call it STONED Love).

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    We've all taken jobs thinking that job was going to be one thing, and it turned out to be something else altogether. I think this was true for Jean Terrell. Show biz isn't for everybody.
    I can imagine that was real true with her. She was more of a traditionalist than her Supremes cohorts and probably thought "nah this ain't for me". I mean, it was due to her strong religious beliefs that her 1978 A&M debut didn't go anywhere.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    RanRan--who is "accusing" Jean Terrell of anything?
    If you read through the thread you will see that the accusation of "homophobe" has been leveled at Jean. She's been accused and I asked for sources. Waiting...

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    I've read and heard this once before. It's from an article from 2007. Where the interviewer says that when asking Terrell about her strong gay following she replied:" as long as they like my music, that's all that matters." I don't know if it's the name of the interviewer but the name Ernie Alderete appears on the top of the article. Shine on, Jean Terrell in the Bay Area Reporter.

    Other than that I've never heard or am able to find anything either. Being gay I thought it was a bit of a weird answer but it didn't make me dislike her.
    Yeah, I'm not seeing the problem with the response. I thought there was some instance where she said something like she doesn't like gay people, or she doesn't want gay people at her shows or buying her music or...

  7. #207
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    If that's all she said, then I apologize to her for ASSuming things. She's back up on my list of favorite Supremes.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Yeah, I'm not seeing the problem with the response. I thought there was some instance where she said something like she doesn't like gay people, or she doesn't want gay people at her shows or buying her music or...
    I must say that’s what I was thinking myself. It does come across as an odd response, but not really compelling enough evidence to pin a homophobe label on her.

  9. #209
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    Off topic but seeing mignightman refusing to call it stoned love I wonder why they made such a big deal of it in the 70's. In 1968 the 5th Dimension released Stoned Soul Picnic which went to number 3 and haven's seen or heard of any problems with that song when it was released. I'm from the 80's so don't know if the meaning of the word had such a change in negativity from 1968 to 1970.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Off topic but seeing mignightman refusing to call it stoned love I wonder why they made such a big deal of it in the 70's. In 1968 the 5th Dimension released Stoned Soul Picnic which went to number 3 and haven's seen or heard of any problems with that song when it was released. I'm from the 80's so don't know if the meaning of the word had such a change in negativity from 1968 to 1970.
    What i want to know is why did they continue to use the typo in every single printing of every record label sticker and every album track listing.

    nowhere in the song itself do they sing "stoned." it is always "stone"

  11. #211
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    Tyk--back before 1968 or so, getting "stoned" meant getting drunk. Weed, acid, etc hadn't really hit the mainstream yet. By the following year, everything changed as drugs became common with hippies, spreading to the wider population as time went on. It really was amazing how fast it happened, looking back. I'm of the 70's and saw my first concerts, Heart and then Rufus/Chaka, during that time. People openly smoked weed in the various venues--it was shocking to me at the time! My generation kind of rebelled against the hippie thing and drugs were not on the menu! Well, not for years, anyway. In the 70's, "stoned" meant drugs, and drunk meant alcohol.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Jean was probably gonna leave the group sooner than later anyway. Disco was starting to creep into the mainstream in 1973, the year that she left. If she didn't leave in 1973, she would've left in 1974. As it turned out, her leaving the Supremes in 1973 started a nearly two-year, I wanna say entanglement because of recent events lol, with Motown before they could sign new contracts for Mary and Jean and Lynda's replacements: Scherrie Payne and Cindy Birdsong.

    It's sad the Supremes didn't take more of an advantage to present a Black Power front after Stone Love [[I refuse to call it STONED Love).
    The public wasn't going to buy a radical Supremes. But it's interesting to ponder what kind of life they would've had if they released a bunch of message songs, like "Stoned Love". The Tempts obviously had great success with this direction. Someone mentioned Norman Whitfield producing the Supremes. I wonder if the opportunity was even presented to Norman. It may have paid off in a big way, allowing the Jean led group to step outside the shadow of the Diana led group, if at all possible. While I don't think Jean, or Mary and Cindy for that matter, would've been a good match for some of Norman's rougher sounds, I do think he could've tailored his style to fit the more sophisticated soul that the Supremes were identified with. Think New Ways But Love Stays on a whole other level.

    As it was, the grouping's first three singles fit the message genre. Then comes "River Deep" which has a harder sound than what we usually got from the group. "Nathan Jones" is next. It's not a message song, but there's an element of psychedelia. It's too smooth to be a Whitfield job, but I can hear some influence on the track. "Gott Have Love" is a message cut, but it somehow misses the mark. I like the song, but have often joined the chorus of it was a wrong choice of single. I kind of still think that, however, I wonder if the reason it performed so badly is because of lack of promotion. Maybe it would've sounded better as a Jean solo? Whatever the case, it ultimately was a misstep. Then comes "Touch". I wonder if the group would've rebounded with another message cut. What if the Supremes had "Smiling Faces" instead of the Undisputed Truth. Jean doing most of the lead, Mary coming in a bit. Still a hit?

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Jean was probably gonna leave the group sooner than later anyway. Disco was starting to creep into the mainstream in 1973, the year that she left. If she didn't leave in 1973, she would've left in 1974. As it turned out, her leaving the Supremes in 1973 started a nearly two-year, I wanna say entanglement because of recent events lol, with Motown before they could sign new contracts for Mary and Jean and Lynda's replacements: Scherrie Payne and Cindy Birdsong.
    I think Jean had enough of the group thing because I wonder to myself why Jean wouldn't just get with Lynda and find a third lady, if Mary was adamant that she would never leave Motown, after leaving Motown. JML had all the factors that I believe would have made them a perfect group for the mid to late 70s. Remove Mary, replace with someone in her vocal range, and I think Jean and Lynda would have finally found a formula for success. [[And of course a label's full support and paired with a fantastic writer/producer[[s).)

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Off topic but seeing mignightman refusing to call it stoned love I wonder why they made such a big deal of it in the 70's. In 1968 the 5th Dimension released Stoned Soul Picnic which went to number 3 and haven's seen or heard of any problems with that song when it was released. I'm from the 80's so don't know if the meaning of the word had such a change in negativity from 1968 to 1970.
    As sup fan pointed out, the lyrics said "Stone Love", Motown made the mistake of adding "d" at the end and therefore possibly killed any momentum the song hoped to have since some may have thought the Supremes were talking about smoking weed [["Cloud Nine" had the same problem but they managed to make number one and win Motown's first-ever Grammy).

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    The public wasn't going to buy a radical Supremes. But it's interesting to ponder what kind of life they would've had if they released a bunch of message songs, like "Stoned Love". The Tempts obviously had great success with this direction. Someone mentioned Norman Whitfield producing the Supremes. I wonder if the opportunity was even presented to Norman. It may have paid off in a big way, allowing the Jean led group to step outside the shadow of the Diana led group, if at all possible. While I don't think Jean, or Mary and Cindy for that matter, would've been a good match for some of Norman's rougher sounds, I do think he could've tailored his style to fit the more sophisticated soul that the Supremes were identified with. Think New Ways But Love Stays on a whole other level.

    As it was, the grouping's first three singles fit the message genre. Then comes "River Deep" which has a harder sound than what we usually got from the group. "Nathan Jones" is next. It's not a message song, but there's an element of psychedelia. It's too smooth to be a Whitfield job, but I can hear some influence on the track. "Gott Have Love" is a message cut, but it somehow misses the mark. I like the song, but have often joined the chorus of it was a wrong choice of single. I kind of still think that, however, I wonder if the reason it performed so badly is because of lack of promotion. Maybe it would've sounded better as a Jean solo? Whatever the case, it ultimately was a misstep. Then comes "Touch". I wonder if the group would've rebounded with another message cut. What if the Supremes had "Smiling Faces" instead of the Undisputed Truth. Jean doing most of the lead, Mary coming in a bit. Still a hit?
    I could actually the JMC lineup having a hit with Smiling Faces. Mary and Jean singing together. Would've gave Mary the confidence to find her voice as a lead singer sooner than she did.

    Norman gave "The Nitty Gritty" to the Supremes during their DRATS phase and from what I heard, Motown wanted to release it but Bubba Knight stopped that, saying "you should give it to us". As soon as Motown heard the Gladys Knight and the Pips' version, the Supremes' version was suddenly put on the back burner.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    I could actually the JMC lineup having a hit with Smiling Faces. Mary and Jean singing together. Would've gave Mary the confidence to find her voice as a lead singer sooner than she did.

    Norman gave "The Nitty Gritty" to the Supremes during their DRATS phase and from what I heard, Motown wanted to release it but Bubba Knight stopped that, saying "you should give it to us". As soon as Motown heard the Gladys Knight and the Pips' version, the Supremes' version was suddenly put on the back burner.
    Norman also did "Exception to the Rule" on the group back in 63/64. "Nitty" didn't fit Diana. That was definitely more Gladys' territory.

    I agree about "Smiling Faces". "Touch" apparently didn't do the group any favors, but I wonder if "Floy Joy" becoming a hit helped Mary's confidence. That vocal she did on "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" from the Japan live album in 73, she was on fire. It was like that thing had finally woken up.

  17. #217
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    if anyone is looking for a smooth, sexy, silky sound from Norman, just look at Just My Imagination.

    I think Frank was the perfect choice for doing the Sups post Diana. it re-established a group sound. and the evolution of that sound was exciting. Right On is an excellent lp. there are some hints towards the girls being these "ethereal sisters of love" with the layered vocals, echo, harmonies and the peace/love themes. But it also contains a bunhc of just solid pop/r&b tunes.

    with New ways, you ALMOST have a perfect rock/opera album focused on this theme of peace, god and a higher ideal. just swapping out a song or two on Side B and the title/cover issue and you could have had a mega hit. it would have visually looked incredible on store shelves. the music, the production, etc - all stellar.

    the duets really damaged the perception of the group IMO. River was an excellent single but the lp was too MOR. Nathan was excellent but too close to NWBLS and should have been held for a later release

    Had Nathan and the Touch lp been the mega hits they deserved to be, then you get a big question - what next? What would Frank have done next with them? we have Tears Left Over which is a good song but not nearly as innovative as SL or NJ. would some of the Eddie Kendricks sound and tunes have found their way to the girls? If Frank had continued with the hits with the girls, odds are they wouldn't have shifted to another producer

    Would this have been the time to have Norman come in? Given the gorgeousness of Imagination, i wonder what lush and sensual sound he might have come up with?

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    Great point about "Just My Imagination".

    Regarding Frank Wilson, I would love if he had done something like Eddie's "If You Let Me" on the girls. I would hope that kind of direction would've been next.

    I think if Norman were going to come in, it would've been at the beginning. Stevie coming in when he did seems like a logical step though.

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    Hmm, Frank Wilson had the higher ideal/World Peace and Love concept with Up The Ladder and Stoned Love. Smokey reverted to the bouncy, sweet pop sound with Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine. Bouncing from Frank Wilson to Smokey Robinson and then to Jimmy Webb as an "experiment", wonder if Stevie Wonder was the next logical choice. I wonder if there was someone at Motown who could make Jean happy and artistically fulfilled? Really, would Stevie's experimentation have made Jean happy and artistically fulfilled? Would Marvin Gaye been a good choice for her, assuming he could have been able to? I know that the latter Supremes and Mary approached him but he had too much going on himself to take the Supremes on, from what I have read. Mary said she had a meeting with Ewart and he floated some prospects including some Philly International names. I think, as Mary stated, that Jean felt that as a Cinderella her coach turned into a pumpkin halfway to the ball. Surely, Motown could see her talent but in terms of dealing with Motown execs did Jean do herself any favors by being so outspoken and with the whole Copa drama?

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    Stevie does seem the next logical choice. But it's intriguing to me that the Supremes even took on Smokey in the first place. Not that I'm complaining, because Floy Joy is one of my absolute favorite Supremes albums period, but with Frank the group had 5 big hit singles [[one of which was with the Tops) and two flops [[one of which was with the Tops) in approximately a year and a half. That is not success to sneeze at. So the question is who made the decision to divorce the Supremes and Frank Wilson and pair them with Smokey, and why? It's seems such an odd decision to make when looking at the pairing of Supremes with Frank. I would have kept the relationship going. Maybe if the next project between the two had failed it may have been time to consider the well running dry and parting ways, but this seems so early in the game.

    I had never thought about it before, but Smokey does sort of return the ladies to the roots of the Supremes. I wouldn't say there was anything particularly innovative about the FJ set. In fact, for me, one of the selling points is that the songs aren't doing too much. It's really a nice, mellow album. But did the ladies need that at this point or would it have been better for the intensity of their music to increase? I guess ultimately there isn't much to argue against here because they did score a big hit out of it.

    Jimmy Webb was just an all around mistake. It's the album that should have never been. Just wrong, wrong, wrong. And it's not that it's a bad album. I like at least half the songs on it, but it was the wrong move career wise for the group. If Smokey wasn't going to do the follow up to Floy Joy, Stevie should've entered the picture at this point, or return the ladies to Frank for another go.

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    i agree Ran. i love the Frank Wilson albums but found Floy Joy a refreshing change. Frank's work was big - big productions, layered vocals. So smokey brought a clean, light sound. i think if Cindy had stayed in the group and 1) they had been able to really promote it with tv appearances and more and 2) if they'd played up more of the tie in with Smokey, Auto Sun would have done much better

    in chatting with some fans, it did extremely well in certain markets. it went Top 10 or even 1 in markets like Chicago, DC, LA. But oddly enough, it didn't do a thing in Detroit. Maybe had the group been able to focus on it and promote it rather than jean's illness and training Lynda.

    i'm not totally against the idea of the Jimmy Webb project. i think there was definite potential. but some incredibly bad decisions on the part of Jimmy. frankly he approached it as if he was producing a solo album for jean and not thinking about working with a group. I sort of feel that way with Bad Weather too.

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    did Smokey have any fairly recent big hit production ties with others? Maybe giving the Supremes LP to him was to remind people he was a competent producer....The Webb LP suffers from too many unfamiliar songs...there is not one general public / common knowledge Webb composition included. And the use of "The Mormon Taberancle Chior"???....this was a project with so much great potential there. A wasted opportunity to put together a wonderful modern composer songbook LP
    Last edited by gman; 07-20-2020 at 03:07 PM.

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    The last big hit that Smokey produced prior to FJ was I Don’t Blame You At All.
    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    did Smokey have any fairly recent big hit production ties with others? Maybe giving the Supremes LP to him was to remind people he was a competent producer....The Webb LP suffers from too many unfamiliar songs...there is not one general public / common knowledge Webb composition included. And the use of "The Mormon Taberancle Chior"???....this was a project with so much great potential there. A wasted opportunity to put together a wonderful modern composer songbook LP

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    no neither he nor the Miracles had major hits in 71. Tears of Clown was released in Sept 70 in the US, which was a giant hit. so it was a little over a year later that Floy Joy single was released. But i think people still certainly knew him as a producer and performer. the Smokey tv special aired in Dec 70.

    he left the Miracles in early summer 72

    The girls did Floy Joy on Merv in Jan 72. They did it a year later in March 73 on Soul Train. but were there any other tv appearances? On Merv it would have been fun to have them talk with Merv about working w Smokey and they do a medley. Maybe include My Guy, Don't Mess With Bill, Second that emotion, tracks of my tears, tears of a clown.

    and in their shows, they should have acknowledged it too. get the word out there

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    when JMC did FJ on Merv in Jan 72, i don't have the group doing any more tv appearances until the Dick Caveat and David Frost shows with MJL in June. but they were already talking about working with Jimmy Webb in the audio and they performed Tossin and Turning. oddly enough they didn't do Auto Sunshine or any of the smokey material

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    I Don't Blame You At All" was the group's final big hit with Robinson, it reached the Top 20 in the spring of 1971 [[#18) and the the R&B top 10 [[#7).
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    no neither he nor the Miracles had major hits in 71. Tears of Clown was released in Sept 70 in the US, which was a giant hit. so it was a little over a year later that Floy Joy single was released. But i think people still certainly knew him as a producer and performer. the Smokey tv special aired in Dec 70.

    he left the Miracles in early summer 72

    The girls did Floy Joy on Merv in Jan 72. They did it a year later in March 73 on Soul Train. but were there any other tv appearances? On Merv it would have been fun to have them talk with Merv about working w Smokey and they do a medley. Maybe include My Guy, Don't Mess With Bill, Second that emotion, tracks of my tears, tears of a clown.

    and in their shows, they should have acknowledged it too. get the word out there

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post

    i'm not totally against the idea of the Jimmy Webb project. i think there was definite potential. but some incredibly bad decisions on the part of Jimmy. frankly he approached it as if he was producing a solo album for jean and not thinking about working with a group. I sort of feel that way with Bad Weather too.
    It makes no sense why "Floy Joy" and "Automatically Sunshine" were not promoted more via television. "Floy Joy" did great nationally, obviously, with the limited appearances, so one has to wonder how much better might it have done, especially pop, as it went top 5 r&b, had it had a bit more TV exposure. I don't know what the hell happened with "Automatically". Pulling in great numbers in major markets should have extended to the smaller ones. To my ears it was definitely a ready made hit. The "Happy Together" similarity made it fit in with the throwback market that was producing hits at the time. This should have kept the hit streak going.

    Artistically, pairing the Supremes with Jimmy Webb should not be cause for alarm. But at this point in their career, I don't think there was room for such out of the box experimentation. The Supremes needed big hits, and as recorded, nothing on the JW album was going to do it, even though there are some fantastic cuts to be found on it. If I were going to put my money on any one song it would've probably been "5:30 Plane", but I still wouldn't be convinced that it would have been a surefire hit. Plus I think any single from this album would have lost the girls their r&b market, which from "Lovelight" through the end of the group, was the foundation of their success. Remove their Black support, both fans and radio, especially during the 70s, and the Supremes are basically extinct. Jimmy Webb would not have won that crowd over, even with Jean tearing it up on some of those songs.

    Obviously Jimmy did not respect the Supremes as a group. I think it's a travesty that the Blossoms were brought in, especially knowing that Jean, Mary and Lynda together were a powerhouse group. "Tossin and Turnin" is the one cut on the album that I do think lead and backup were given equal shine. Sup you've made the same critique of Stevie before, but on that one I disagree. I think Mary and Lynda were given equal shine on "Bad Weather" to Jean's lead. They are an integral part of the song. They also are on full display on "I'll Wait a Lifetime". "Soft Days" sounds like a demo to me, so I don't think it's fair to judge that one. And until the other songs from the sessions see the light of day, I don't think there's enough to go on to suggest that Stevie viewed the group as more of Jean and less Supremes, in the way that Jimmy Webb obviously did.

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    I never liked the Floy Joy album, with the exception of A Heart Like Mine, which I loved and still love. FJ to me was too light, too adult oriented. I prefer harder stuff like Stoned Love or Driving Wheel. Jimmy Webb was better IMO but it still had a bunch of very weak songs, like Tossin' Turning, Once in the Morning, Cheap Lovin', and that abyssmal song they sang on Sonny and Cher. I like Jimmy Webb usually, especially on Earthbound [[5th Dimension)--but those horns at the beginning of All I Want were so derivative of his earlier work.

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    i do at least understand that they were going for a pop sound with a popular singer/songwriter. Jimmy had had a lot of success as had others like Carole King, Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, Laura Nero, Paul Simon. Their sound was mature, interesting, cerebral. And very much on trend in 1972

    So the concept of bringing in one of these artists, is actually IMO brilliant. the execution though was terrible

    Floy Joy single and album both did fairly well on the charts. the single was gold and performed strongly - though i agree it could have gone a bit higher on the pop charts. And the lp did better than any since Right On. Again had they properly promoted it in the winter and spring of 71/72, it probably would have done better. Auto Sun should have gone much higher and had much more exposure.

    this stronger chart performance would probably have set the stage for a more receptive audience to something as experimental as collaborating with an outside producer. it's just that i think the one they picked what about the project 100% wrong. I still love the idea of Carole King working with the group. that would be my very first choice. she was so hot at the time and a woman producer working with the surpemes seems perfect.

    with jimmy, i agree that the additional vocalists were all wrong, the song choice was uninspired. Frankly i'm sort of shocked they bothered to release the lp at all. I Guess I'll Miss was released in Sept and did absolutely nothing on the charts. given that auspicious start, you'd think someone at the company would have said "hmmmm maybe we should dump this mess" and start over with the Stevie material

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    Not to mention "Guess" wasn't even a JW production! Yeah, I'm with you at being surprised the project wasn't scrapped eventually.

    Carole King's work had a soulfulness about it that I think would've translated well to the Supremes and given them music that would not have alienated most fans. [[Oh how I would've loved to hear Jean's take on "I Feel the Earth Move"!) But straying too far outside of what the group was known for would have been the fatal nail. The JW album nearly did just that. The theory has been bounded about the forum that part of "Bad Weather"'s lack of success was because people officially tuned out when "Guess" and then JW flopped hard. Smokey was a singer/songwriter. Stevie was a singer/songwriter. Hell, Marvin was a singer/songwriter. Why the Supremes, or anyone in their camp, or anyone at Motown would search so far to the extreme as a Jimmy Webb, boggles my mind.

    I will say that I think Jean's voice lends itself well to the Supremes doing some experimentation. That's why I think, had it been completed, the Stevie produced album would have been at least artistically speaking fantastic, if not a commercial success. He was really stepping his game up around this time artistically, and was only about to get better. The Supremes could have been a part of that. Syreeta's Stevie album came out the following year. I'm not a fan of Syreeta's voice [[although it's actually starting to grow on me), but I've held her 1974 album in the highest esteem since acquiring it more than a decade ago. I have to wonder how many of those songs might have been given to the Supremes first.

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    Jean one time said of all the records she did with the Supremes, she liked the Jimmy Webb project best because Jimmy wanted to hear their feedback and Ideas. I think I already posted this a while ago, but Jean had her brother deliver a note to him saying he should not force Jean to sing in a key too high for her. I agreed with that, Jean sounds screechy on a few of the songs IMO. I recently read Webb's autobio, and picked out a few things that were interesting. One, he said he just wasn't getting the right vocals from The Supremes, so he hired Darlene Love and others to fill out the backgrounds. Jimmy said it was the best the "Supremes" ever sounded but admitted that the record didn't sound like the Supremes. I thought these were kind of harsh things to say but there ya go. I also noticed in LaMonte McLemore's book, LaMonte said the 5th never, EVER had any additional vocalists on their records. But I recall reading on the liner notes for Earthbound that a Jim Gilstrap [[sp) was a guest vocalist on the album. It could be that Jim was added without the group knowing it, but it is hard for me to imagine what he could add that the various members couldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Not to mention "Guess" wasn't even a JW production! Yeah, I'm with you at being surprised the project wasn't scrapped eventually.

    Carole King's work had a soulfulness about it that I think would've translated well to the Supremes and given them music that would not have alienated most fans. [[Oh how I would've loved to hear Jean's take on "I Feel the Earth Move"!) But straying too far outside of what the group was known for would have been the fatal nail. The JW album nearly did just that. The theory has been bounded about the forum that part of "Bad Weather"'s lack of success was because people officially tuned out when "Guess" and then JW flopped hard. Smokey was a singer/songwriter. Stevie was a singer/songwriter. Hell, Marvin was a singer/songwriter. Why the Supremes, or anyone in their camp, or anyone at Motown would search so far to the extreme as a Jimmy Webb, boggles my mind.

    I will say that I think Jean's voice lends itself well to the Supremes doing some experimentation. That's why I think, had it been completed, the Stevie produced album would have been at least artistically speaking fantastic, if not a commercial success. He was really stepping his game up around this time artistically, and was only about to get better. The Supremes could have been a part of that. Syreeta's Stevie album came out the following year. I'm not a fan of Syreeta's voice [[although it's actually starting to grow on me), but I've held her 1974 album in the highest esteem since acquiring it more than a decade ago. I have to wonder how many of those songs might have been given to the Supremes first.
    i don't know that working with Jimmy was totally out of left field. the 5th D had sung a bunch of his songs on their albums, although he didn't produce them. He had also worked at motown briefly before and did produce the stunning album Sunshower with Thelma Houston. so he definitely had some work on his resume that would have made him a reasonable choice.

    Many of these singer/songwriters had a more mellow, earthier sound and approach. the lyrics of King, Simon, Webb, Mitchell and all are much more introspective and even somewhat abstract. Far different from the straight-forwardness of HDH or even Smokey's poetic nature. frank wilson at least moved into more complex songs with their themes of god and nature. But this was all in vogue at the time. These were more "Serious" artists

    Also we nearly got Bones Howe and Laura Nero for Diana's debut. so when they were looking at what to do to win the public over again with the Supremes, this isn't totally crazy

    again, i think it was the execution not the initial idea that was the problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Jean one time said of all the records she did with the Supremes, she liked the Jimmy Webb project best because Jimmy wanted to hear their feedback and Ideas. I think I already posted this a while ago, but Jean had her brother deliver a note to him saying he should not force Jean to sing in a key too high for her. I agreed with that, Jean sounds screechy on a few of the songs IMO. I recently read Webb's autobio, and picked out a few things that were interesting. One, he said he just wasn't getting the right vocals from The Supremes, so he hired Darlene Love and others to fill out the backgrounds. Jimmy said it was the best the "Supremes" ever sounded but admitted that the record didn't sound like the Supremes. I thought these were kind of harsh things to say but there ya go. I also noticed in LaMonte McLemore's book, LaMonte said the 5th never, EVER had any additional vocalists on their records. But I recall reading on the liner notes for Earthbound that a Jim Gilstrap [[sp) was a guest vocalist on the album. It could be that Jim was added without the group knowing it, but it is hard for me to imagine what he could add that the various members couldn't.
    part of the job of the producer is to know and understand who you are producing for. that includes understanding their vocal range, their strengths, their weaknesses. Sometimes a song just won't sound good in a certain key so you have to record it as such. but then if that key simply won't work for the singer, frankly you need to ditch that song then and find another.

    IMO Jimmy just didn't do his homework well enough to understand who and what he was working with. the group had long since been known for smooth, beautiful singing. you can't simply ditch everything from the past - as a guest producer you need to take what there and build on it through your vision.

    Some of the songs are ok enough but not really very special. he used quite a few older cover songs - Tossin, Paradise from the Spector groups like the Ronettes and ShangriLas. Silent Voices was off an old Dionne Warwick album. Joni Mitchell's all i want.

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    Sup_fan-I think Jimmy Webb was not a wise choice. People didn't like Jimmy Webb for whatever reason. Even today, MacArthur Park is still voted as one of the worst songs of all time even though everybody and their mamma recorded it. I had friends growing up who were almost angry with me for liking that song.The era of singer/songwriter was on its way in with people like Stevie and Marvin. People wanted from-the- heart messages in their music. They didn't want a group singing someone else's words and music. This change led to the self contained groups who wrote their own material, Rufus, Labelle, Commodores etc. By 1972 Jimmy Webb was on the descent--again, evidence of Motown's indifference towards these new Supremes. in 1974, when the 5th's Jimmy album Earthbound hit the stores, it bombed.LaMonte said his problem with Earthbound was that it didn't sound like anything else on the radio and hence never fit any format. I personally loved the album, but it was not successful. By then, Up Up and Away was already almost a decade in the rear view mirror and nobody cared about the reunion of Webb and the 5th.

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    Bobby - i don't disagree that other choices might have been more successful. That's why i think the Carole King idea would have been magic. she had a MEGA album with Tapestry.
    She had a more feminist viewpoint and the Sups had started to explore that a bit with Jean. with all of the Diana tracks you have her pleading with her man but Jean was telling the dog Nathan to go jump in a lake! lolol

    so i think there were definitely other options that would have worked better

    but i don't think the decision to pick Jimmy was completely without some rationale. it wasn't as if they just randomly picked his name out of a hat. Also he had his album at the time Letters was critically well received. It also includes the songs Once in the Morning and When Can Brown Begin. and Joni Mitchell collaborates on it too.

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i don't know that working with Jimmy was totally out of left field. the 5th D had sung a bunch of his songs on their albums, although he didn't produce them. He had also worked at motown briefly before and did produce the stunning album Sunshower with Thelma Houston. so he definitely had some work on his resume that would have made him a reasonable choice.

    Many of these singer/songwriters had a more mellow, earthier sound and approach. the lyrics of King, Simon, Webb, Mitchell and all are much more introspective and even somewhat abstract. Far different from the straight-forwardness of HDH or even Smokey's poetic nature. frank wilson at least moved into more complex songs with their themes of god and nature. But this was all in vogue at the time. These were more "Serious" artists

    Also we nearly got Bones Howe and Laura Nero for Diana's debut. so when they were looking at what to do to win the public over again with the Supremes, this isn't totally crazy

    again, i think it was the execution not the initial idea that was the problem
    Jimmy Webb was great at what he did. There's no questioning that. Had he produced Thelma at Motown in 1972, makes sense because she had already had a great album under his direction, and sang that type of music. The Supremes were not known for what Jimmy gave them. They would have lost a chunk of their audience doing his music. It's my understanding that Gordy's decision to nix the initial Bones Howe collaboration in favor of Val and Nick was because he saw the situation in the same way: Diana would've lost a portion of her audience and she couldn't risk that, not that early in her career. In 1972/73 the Supremes needed hits that were going to put them back in their rightful place as the reigning princesses of pop and soul. Jimmy Webb had no presence on the r&b singles chart as far as I can tell, up to that point at least. Even Bones had managed to score on the chart. Pop radio would often accept music that was bone deep r&b. R&B radio rarely- if ever- played the type of music Jimmy brought to the table. So artistically, I can't argue against your position, especially after the beautiful job Jimmy did with Thelma's Sunshower album. But Mary, Jean and Lynda had bills to pay and families to support and thus needed big hit singles that resonated with the public. I don't believe Jimmy was capable of producing that. Best case scenario was if he gave the group an album that sold well but produced no hit singles. Worst case scenario...well, may I present to you The Supremes Produced and Arranged By Jimmy Webb.

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    Btw, how refreshing is it to be talking the music right now instead of who did what to whom? I'm enjoying this.

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    Hi Ran Ran. I really enjoy most of Jimmy Webb's work, I really do. But you put it in perspective when you wrote that the Supremes needed hit singles, and Jimmy wasn't really known for that--with some exceptions. After Up Up and Away, Jimmy produced the 5th's second album--The Magic Garden. There were no hit singles on it. Sunshower no hit singles. The Supremes, no hit singles. Yes he had a string of hits with Glenn Campbell, but that didn't last long. Jimmy Webb is a concept album guy. Even so, he had a tendency to pick out some flat out stupid songs for his concept albums--songs like Walk Your Feet in the Sunshine, Paper Cup and Carpet Man.Why cover Tossin' and Turning? That song IMO was just mediocre at best and in no way should have been a single, which it was in the UK. The Supremes needed a fresh new sound--they didn't need to be recording relics of the past that were ancient history. I think Hollands/Beatty understood this, and that's how we got High Energy and MS&S. Those albums had disco cuts--but they were disco when disco was beautiful music, like Barry White's lush, orchestrated dance music. In just a year or two disco got gimmicky and formulaic and it lost me completely. If I could go back in time and pick a producer for the Supremes, it would have been Barry White. Second, maybe Lionel Richie or Maurice White--but they are a distant second behind Barry White.
    Carole King? Hmmm--I'd have to think on that. Again, however, popular as King was in the very early 70's, she was of the old school. I'd still go with Barry White. I think he could have captured Mary's voice, in particular, very well.

    Glad you are liking this thread. It's kind of all over the place but who cares! Hee hee!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Hi Ran Ran. I really enjoy most of Jimmy Webb's work, I really do. But you put it in perspective when you wrote that the Supremes needed hit singles, and Jimmy wasn't really known for that--with some exceptions. After Up Up and Away, Jimmy produced the 5th's second album--The Magic Garden. There were no hit singles on it. Sunshower no hit singles. The Supremes, no hit singles. Yes he had a string of hits with Glenn Campbell, but that didn't last long. Jimmy Webb is a concept album guy. Even so, he had a tendency to pick out some flat out stupid songs for his concept albums--songs like Walk Your Feet in the Sunshine, Paper Cup and Carpet Man.Why cover Tossin' and Turning? That song IMO was just mediocre at best and in no way should have been a single, which it was in the UK. The Supremes needed a fresh new sound--they didn't need to be recording relics of the past that were ancient history. I think Hollands/Beatty understood this, and that's how we got High Energy and MS&S. Those albums had disco cuts--but they were disco when disco was beautiful music, like Barry White's lush, orchestrated dance music. In just a year or two disco got gimmicky and formulaic and it lost me completely. If I could go back in time and pick a producer for the Supremes, it would have been Barry White. Second, maybe Lionel Richie or Maurice White--but they are a distant second behind Barry White.
    Carole King? Hmmm--I'd have to think on that. Again, however, popular as King was in the very early 70's, she was of the old school. I'd still go with Barry White. I think he could have captured Mary's voice, in particular, very well.

    Glad you are liking this thread. It's kind of all over the place but who cares! Hee hee!
    Barry had his Love Unlimited so cannot imagine that he would have been in the least bit interested in producing the Supremes..
    What a perfect combination that might have been though. The perfect follow up to FJ. Lush arrangements with great pop hooks. I can almost hear it already. Agree with RanRan in that Produced and Arranged by Jimmie Webb was possibly, make that probably the worst case scenario.

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    enjoying this thread too!


    i think the Supremes were more pop than r&b. look at their chart performance - so many more #1 and top ten pop hits versus r&b. it's not that they didn't have a strong black or r&b base. But the majority of their work was definitely more more "white" than "black"

    As compared to MRATV or the Temps. both of those groups were more r&b with some pop overtones. so if Jimmy was going to work with anyone at motown, it would have been Diana or the Sups.

    by mid 72, the group was definitely struggling. FJ had been a bit of a rebound but a #16 hit isn't a "mega hit". sure it was one of the stronger performing 70s singles but they were needing something much bigger. The frank wilson worked at first but then tapered off. And his albums struggled. the duets didn't do much. the Smokey work with somewhat successful. So management was trying to figure out what to do next.

    it was a gamble for sure and i think there were possibilities for this approach to succeed. Again if they used a stronger singer/songwriter such as Carole King. or if Jimmy had taken a MUCH different approach it could have worked.

    I do also like the idea of Barry White coming in and doing his Love Unlimited approach with the girls. LU was strong for a while but the group didn't have massive or long-term chart success. Perhaps combining his work and sound with a more established group like the Sups could have made a difference

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    what are people's thoughts on Marvin producing the MJL lineup?

    for motown to outside of their producers was quite a surprise.

    in 72, Marvin was working on Troubled Man soundtrack. frankly i've never been all that much of a fan of that score and maybe working with the Sups would have been a more fruitful project

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    Ollie--that's what I'm saying. Barry White never fell into the gimmicky disco trap--he was always classy and his style was perfect for the Supremes going into a new musical space. I agree that he probably wouldn't have been interested but I was talking best case scenario.

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    Sup_fan, no I don't think Gaye would have been a good choice. After 1972, his singles chart action was tapering out. In some ways I think Marvin was trapped by the success of What's Going On. How do you compete with that. Marvin was not Stevie Wonder who seemed to crank out hit after hit after hit, along with milestone albums like Innervisions and Songs in the Key of Life. Stevie was diversified but Marvin was not. That being said, why does Marvin need other people to sing his material? He didn't. Stevie was an amazing songwriter but his songs always lent themselves to other people singing them. Susaye sang Knocks Me Off My Feet and nobody said she was trying to copy Stevie. But what if Susaye tried to do What's Going On? I don't think that would work.

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    I have to say, I am not sure that Marvin Gaye would have been a good choice for the Supremes as a producer. I found the Jimmy Webb project an interesting experiment but really only loved I Keep It Hid. Frank Wilson truly had evolved a great sound with the group but I read they were all disappointed with the chart showings with Right On hitting a solid #25 but New Ways only going to #68 and Touch to #85. I agree that initially Floy Joy as an album felt too light and bouncy to me after such strong vocals on Touch, although I loved hearing Mary Wilson lead or co-lead on a number of tracks and singles on it. With it hitting #54, it was a higher charting album than New Ways was even though New Ways had the top 10 hit on it. I did not care for how screechy Jean sounded on Jimmy Webb, so I am glad to hear that she did stand up and say that vocally those notes were not in her range and a producer who is producing the best of what the group had to offer would have heeded that and also not brought in a chorus of singers for the backgrounds. Stevie may have been able to do something with Jean, but I do wonder if his ideas would have progressed the group further or alienated the fans who were locked into a certain sound for the group. I liked Bad Weather quite a bit, thought it was a great progression in sound but lacked a sound and lyrics to really catch onto in hindsight. Carole King would have been very interesting. I have to say I totally enjoyed the Holland Brothers work on High Energy [[#42) and if you notice the sounds on High Energy are different because they were working with Mary,Scherrie & Cindy with Susaye overdubbed for a lead and adlibs. Their last attempt with MS&S was great but the sound was so different because of the line up and their approach to the music was different and more progressive. Norman Whitfield may or may not have been a good idea. I am unsure. What do you think of another Smokey produced effort? I doubt if Motown would have assigned Ashford & Simpson to the Supremes since they were so linked to Diana Ross. I also do wonder if Floy Joy would have done better with more television exposure and Automatically Sunshine virtually had one yet they hit the top 20 and top 40 respectively while the third single Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love was on television quite a bit but only managed to get to #59.

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    yeah i think the likelihood of Marvin producing the girls was slim but in fantasyland, i think it's an interesting option

    IMO the MJL lineup was incredibly sexy. Mary has always been one of the prettiest supremes, and Lynda was a knockout too. Jean had this commanding presence too. In 71 and 72, marvin was exploring his options for post-What's Going On music. he'd always been a sex symbol and was exploring that persona with the Let's Get It On album, which was in development and production for some time.

    Now i wouldn't ever vote to simply have the Sups do LGIO but what if Marvin took the girls and really played up the sensuality of the women. Certainly Motown [[and probably Jean too lol) would never have gone for anything as direct and controversial as You Sure Love To Ball. but there's a beautiful lushness and sexiness with Marvin's albums - WGO, LGIO and my fav I Want You. Frank Wilson had done a more rock lush sound with the NWBLS and Touch albums. Maybe Marvin would have sort of taken them into Motown's version of Love Unlimited

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Hi Ran Ran. I really enjoy most of Jimmy Webb's work, I really do. But you put it in perspective when you wrote that the Supremes needed hit singles, and Jimmy wasn't really known for that--with some exceptions. After Up Up and Away, Jimmy produced the 5th's second album--The Magic Garden. There were no hit singles on it. Sunshower no hit singles. The Supremes, no hit singles. Yes he had a string of hits with Glenn Campbell, but that didn't last long. Jimmy Webb is a concept album guy. Even so, he had a tendency to pick out some flat out stupid songs for his concept albums--songs like Walk Your Feet in the Sunshine, Paper Cup and Carpet Man.Why cover Tossin' and Turning? That song IMO was just mediocre at best and in no way should have been a single, which it was in the UK. The Supremes needed a fresh new sound--they didn't need to be recording relics of the past that were ancient history. I think Hollands/Beatty understood this, and that's how we got High Energy and MS&S. Those albums had disco cuts--but they were disco when disco was beautiful music, like Barry White's lush, orchestrated dance music. In just a year or two disco got gimmicky and formulaic and it lost me completely. If I could go back in time and pick a producer for the Supremes, it would have been Barry White. Second, maybe Lionel Richie or Maurice White--but they are a distant second behind Barry White.
    Carole King? Hmmm--I'd have to think on that. Again, however, popular as King was in the very early 70's, she was of the old school. I'd still go with Barry White. I think he could have captured Mary's voice, in particular, very well.

    Glad you are liking this thread. It's kind of all over the place but who cares! Hee hee!
    I personally don't like that the Supremes walked into disco territory at all, although I love some of the cuts they recorded in this direction, as well as the disco genre in general. By the time of the Scherrie years, I feel they would've been better served to record music similar to what the Emotions and HOT were recording. As much as I love a lot of the Supremes stuff at this point, I don't think much of anything they recorded, whether released or vaulted, could've competed with the hot female groups at the time.

    I think Barry White producing the Supremes, especially when Jean was in the group, would have been heavenly. I am a HUGE fan of Love Unlimited, a group that is in my top 10 favorite female groups of all time. I'm also a HUGE fan of Barry White in general, one of my favorite male vocalists of all time. [[His voice is so underrated. Sure he get's acclaim for the bass and what it does for a sexy song, but not the acclaim he should get for just being able to tear a song all the way down. Man could that brotha sing.) So pairing the Supremes with him and those lush arrangements...I'm almost sad thinking about it and how it never happened.

    Agree about Mary also. Barry's album on Gloria Scott is fantastic and she has a Mary-like voice [[I think Mary has more range, personally), so there's no reason to think his arrangements and Mary's warm voice wouldn't have been a good fit.

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Agree with RanRan in that Produced and Arranged by Jimmie Webb was possibly, make that probably the worst case scenario.
    Well the worst case scenario with Jimmy Webb. The actual worst case scenario involving the Supremes would've been The Supremes Produced and Arranged By Lawrence Welk. It wouldn't have even charted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    enjoying this thread too!


    i think the Supremes were more pop than r&b. look at their chart performance - so many more #1 and top ten pop hits versus r&b. it's not that they didn't have a strong black or r&b base. But the majority of their work was definitely more more "white" than "black"

    As compared to MRATV or the Temps. both of those groups were more r&b with some pop overtones. so if Jimmy was going to work with anyone at motown, it would have been Diana or the Sups.

    by mid 72, the group was definitely struggling. FJ had been a bit of a rebound but a #16 hit isn't a "mega hit". sure it was one of the stronger performing 70s singles but they were needing something much bigger. The frank wilson worked at first but then tapered off. And his albums struggled. the duets didn't do much. the Smokey work with somewhat successful. So management was trying to figure out what to do next.

    it was a gamble for sure and i think there were possibilities for this approach to succeed. Again if they used a stronger singer/songwriter such as Carole King. or if Jimmy had taken a MUCH different approach it could have worked.

    I do also like the idea of Barry White coming in and doing his Love Unlimited approach with the girls. LU was strong for a while but the group didn't have massive or long-term chart success. Perhaps combining his work and sound with a more established group like the Sups could have made a difference
    The Supremes had more #1 pop hits, but who were they competing against? They were dusting any other female group on the pop charts during those peak years. R&B wise, no other girl group had as many #1 r&b singles, but their competition was much tougher. And when the Supremes almost equaled their five consecutive #1 hit streak in 66/67, they mirrored the pop charts until "The Happening". The Supremes were hugely popular with their original r&b fanbase. The Supremes' albums almost always did much better on the r&b charts than the pop charts, and until "The Happening", starting with "Lovelight" the Supremes' singles always hit the top 10 of the R&B chart, including "Nothing But Heartaches". Their music mostly did better on the R&B chart during the DRATS years as well as the Jean years. So while the goal was always to have the Supremes be a crossover success, there was never a point where Gordy and company were willing to forsake their Black base. To get to 1972 and suddenly decide to ignore what had never been ignored before would've spelled disaster for the group. They were going to need music that would appeal to their core fanbase and the general record buying public and I just don't see any of those Jimmy Webb type singer/songwriters getting the job done on that front.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    what are people's thoughts on Marvin producing the MJL lineup?

    for motown to outside of their producers was quite a surprise.

    in 72, Marvin was working on Troubled Man soundtrack. frankly i've never been all that much of a fan of that score and maybe working with the Sups would have been a more fruitful project
    Marvin had the capabilities to record himself singing the phone book and I would've loved it. However, I've never been a fan of Trouble Man. With that being said, I think him producing the Supremes in 1972 would've been an interesting concept. In reality, Marvin was focused on his own thing and so I don't think he would've really been too interested. But the results I think would've played up the ladies' sexiness without being overt. The tracks would've no doubt been fantastic. LGIO sessions are eargasmic.

    What about Willie Hutch? I love the songs he did with Marvin around this time. He also arranged Suzee Ikeda's version of "I Can't Give Back the Love". While I'm not suggesting that he have taken the song from Suzee and given it to the Supremes, I do think it gives a bit of sense of what the group might have done with Willie.


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    Here is another Willie production around this time, with GC Cameron [[and Syreeta). I think if the group had gone with Willie, it would've been taking Frank's love and peace vibe to another level.


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