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  1. #251
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    Here he is again with the Sisters Love. I believe Willie was a good enough producer where he would tailor a project to the artist, so I'm not suggesting that any of these songs would be a fit for the Supremes, but used as a general idea. I think it could've worked.


  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Sup_fan, no I don't think Gaye would have been a good choice. After 1972, his singles chart action was tapering out. In some ways I think Marvin was trapped by the success of What's Going On. How do you compete with that. Marvin was not Stevie Wonder who seemed to crank out hit after hit after hit, along with milestone albums like Innervisions and Songs in the Key of Life. Stevie was diversified but Marvin was not. That being said, why does Marvin need other people to sing his material? He didn't. Stevie was an amazing songwriter but his songs always lent themselves to other people singing them. Susaye sang Knocks Me Off My Feet and nobody said she was trying to copy Stevie. But what if Susaye tried to do What's Going On? I don't think that would work.
    Uh, "Let's Get It On" would rule in 1973. Marvin was years away from his hit action slowing down.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    What do you think of another Smokey produced effort? I doubt if Motown would have assigned Ashford & Simpson to the Supremes since they were so linked to Diana Ross.
    As I said somewhere above, Smokey doing a follow up to FJ made more sense than turning to Jimmy Webb, since the "Floy Joy" single had done so well, and the album had done better than the others in quite some time. I suspect that Smokey's upcoming exit from the Miracles and his attention to his own solo material probably wouldn't have allowed for him to make the Supremes a priority. Although, I guess when you consider how prolific he was in working with other artists in the 60s and still giving the Miracles his attention, perhaps he was that kind of guy who would have made the Supremes a priority alongside his own solo work. Something to think about.

    As for Ashford and Simpson, they worked with Diana on her debut and 1971's Surrender, but except for the cut they produced for Diana and Marvin, that was the extent of their involvement in Diana's career until 1979, so switching the duo to the Supremes may not have been an inconceivable idea. It's actually one I don't believe I've ever pondered. I think it could've been fruitful. The songs Valerie did on her second album, like "Could Have Been Sweeter", "Silly Wasn't I", "Benji", were stuff I can easily hear Jean doing. I can hear Mary doing "Silly Wasn't I".

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    As I said somewhere above, Smokey doing a follow up to FJ made more sense than turning to Jimmy Webb, since the "Floy Joy" single had done so well, and the album had done better than the others in quite some time. I suspect that Smokey's upcoming exit from the Miracles and his attention to his own solo material probably wouldn't have allowed for him to make the Supremes a priority. Although, I guess when you consider how prolific he was in working with other artists in the 60s and still giving the Miracles his attention, perhaps he was that kind of guy who would have made the Supremes a priority alongside his own solo work. Something to think about.

    As for Ashford and Simpson, they worked with Diana on her debut and 1971's Surrender, but except for the cut they produced for Diana and Marvin, that was the extent of their involvement in Diana's career until 1979, so switching the duo to the Supremes may not have been an inconceivable idea. It's actually one I don't believe I've ever pondered. I think it could've been fruitful. The songs Valerie did on her second album, like "Could Have Been Sweeter", "Silly Wasn't I", "Benji", were stuff I can easily hear Jean doing. I can hear Mary doing "Silly Wasn't I".
    I agree in that Ashford & Simpson could have been perfect for the Supremes at that point in time. Their gospel infused production would have been perfect in utilising the vocal talents of all three women.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Sup_fan, no I don't think Gaye would have been a good choice. After 1972, his singles chart action was tapering out. In some ways I think Marvin was trapped by the success of What's Going On. How do you compete with that. Marvin was not Stevie Wonder who seemed to crank out hit after hit after hit, along with milestone albums like Innervisions and Songs in the Key of Life. Stevie was diversified but Marvin was not. That being said, why does Marvin need other people to sing his material? He didn't. Stevie was an amazing songwriter but his songs always lent themselves to other people singing them. Susaye sang Knocks Me Off My Feet and nobody said she was trying to copy Stevie. But what if Susaye tried to do What's Going On? I don't think that would work.
    Uh... Let's Get It On was bigger than most Stevie singles in 1973... he also sold more albums than Stevie up until 1974.

    Plus, Stevie wasn't producing too many hit singles for others either and it was clear why. The only artist-producer who could've helped the Supremes was Smokey because he had a bigger record of being a hitmaker for others.

    But the production of Floy Joy left a lot to be desired.

  6. #256
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    I would have enjoyed Smokey producing the follow up album to Floy Joy, but taken the ladies into a more adult route, similar to his work with Barbara Mcnair in the mid 60s or The Marvelettes in the late 60s

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I agree in that Ashford & Simpson could have been perfect for the Supremes at that point in time. Their gospel infused production would have been perfect in utilising the vocal talents of all three women.
    Yeah, when you think about groups like the Staple Singers and such, having hits with this heavy gospel influence, it would seem a perfect marriage for JML. I'm starting to think now that where producers go, my first choice for the follow up to Floy Joy is Ashford and Simpson.

  8. #258
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    Wow I leave for a few hours and this thread blew up! I am playing catch up!! Jim AKA: You and I have very similar taste, I can see. I also felt that I Keep it Hid was the best song on that album, all things considered. If you look up "Jimmy Webb discography" on Wikipedia, you'll see the same few Webb songs being covered over and over--I Keep it Hid, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Didn't We, MacArthur Park etc. Nobody was tripping all over themselves to do a cover of Paper Cup! I also agree with your take on Touch--the vocals grabbed me right away--but the vocals on Floy Joy, to my ears, were soft, anonymous and sounded more like background ambient music.

  9. #259
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    looking over the chart activity in 72, i ran across Al Green and Let's Stay Together. starting thinking about how he might have worked as a producer for the girls

    some of the fan rumors and discussions have said J and L wanted to go more R&B with the group while Mary wanted to stay with the pop and sequins. Al would certainly have qualified for that!

    and back at the motown camp, i'm surprised they didn't do more with Clay McMurray. he recorded a bunch of stuff on the girls and was also hot with GKATP

  10. #260
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    another interesting option within motown would be Johnny Bristol. he definitely had a more r&b slant:

    Someday we'll be together [[DRATS)
    what does it take to win your love [[jr walker)
    these things will keep me loving you [[velvettes and DR solo)
    Bill when are you coming home [[new Sups)
    LIfe Beats [[new sups)
    I don't want to do wrong [[GKATP)
    Daddy could swear i declare [[GKATP)


    and there are some producers the girls only worked with a few times but the results were great

    Jimmy Roach - Then I Met You
    Al Kent - You Move Me, Wait a minute
    Henry Cosby - take a closer look at me, STeppin on a dream, take your dreams back, let's make love now [[with four tops)
    Gloria Jones and pam sawyer - i'll let him know i love him, oh my poor baby

  11. #261
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    Truth be told that rumor started with La Turner. In all of the years passed I’ve never heard Jean or Lynda stating that fact. And I’m sure they had say on that period as far as what they sang in concert.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    looking over the chart activity in 72, i ran across Al Green and Let's Stay Together. starting thinking about how he might have worked as a producer for the girls

    some of the fan rumors and discussions have said J and L wanted to go more R&B with the group while Mary wanted to stay with the pop and sequins. Al would certainly have qualified for that!

    and back at the motown camp, i'm surprised they didn't do more with Clay McMurray. he recorded a bunch of stuff on the girls and was also hot with GKATP

  12. #262
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    Actually Pam Sawyer did co-write a lot of the Frank Wilson compositions
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    another interesting option within motown would be Johnny Bristol. he definitely had a more r&b slant:

    Someday we'll be together [[DRATS)
    what does it take to win your love [[jr walker)
    these things will keep me loving you [[velvettes and DR solo)
    Bill when are you coming home [[new Sups)
    LIfe Beats [[new sups)
    I don't want to do wrong [[GKATP)
    Daddy could swear i declare [[GKATP)


    and there are some producers the girls only worked with a few times but the results were great

    Jimmy Roach - Then I Met You
    Al Kent - You Move Me, Wait a minute
    Henry Cosby - take a closer look at me, STeppin on a dream, take your dreams back, let's make love now [[with four tops)
    Gloria Jones and pam sawyer - i'll let him know i love him, oh my poor baby

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Truth be told that rumor started with La Turner. In all of the years passed I’ve never heard Jean or Lynda stating that fact. And I’m sure they had say on that period as far as what they sang in concert.
    it been something mentioned on here a lot, though you might be right. perhaps it did originate with Turner.

    as for having input, if i understand your post correctly, i'd have to disagree with it. a lot of fans have commented on how jean was not happy with the direction they were going with their stage shows. she didn't like the Diana era material [[both the hits and the MOR stuff) and wasn't happy that her songs were being shoved into medleys. So no, i don't think she had much input. and if she didn't have much, Lynda probably had 0

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Actually Pam Sawyer did co-write a lot of the Frank Wilson compositions
    exactly - so wonder why they didn't have her move up to full producer and handle something for the girls. she certainly had a long string of hits. maybe motown was just too chauvinistic.

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    I've been intrigued by Pam Sawyer since noticing her name on the Jean Terrell-led Supremes albums [[Touch, New Ways). I've often wondered why she didn't become more prominent at Motown since then. She has co-written so many of my favorite Motown songs!

    I Thought It Took A Little Time [[But Today I Fell In Love) - my favorite [[title, too!)
    It's So Hard For Me To Say Goodbye
    Just Seven Numbers [[Can Straighten Out My Life)
    If I Were Your Woman
    I Should Be Proud

    Not to mention the biggies: Love Child, Love Hangover, My Mistake [[Was to Love You), My Whole World Ended [[The Moment You Left Me)

    I won't mention I'm Living In Shame [[oops!)

    It boggles my mind that she's in her 80's [[and British!), but then our Diana is 76.
    Last edited by lucky2012; 07-24-2020 at 03:26 PM.

  16. #266
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    They’ve must have had some input in regards to their shows. I doubt it was Mary because if that was the case I’m sure she would have had more leads than what she had during this period. I’m assuming it was their current manager and/or Gill that put the show together.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    it been something mentioned on here a lot, though you might be right. perhaps it did originate with Turner.

    as for having input, if i understand your post correctly, i'd have to disagree with it. a lot of fans have commented on how jean was not happy with the direction they were going with their stage shows. she didn't like the Diana era material [[both the hits and the MOR stuff) and wasn't happy that her songs were being shoved into medleys. So no, i don't think she had much input. and if she didn't have much, Lynda probably had 0

  17. #267
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    Well I don't know who wanted to change what, but by 1972 the old ways of Motown controlling every aspect of an artist's shows, recordings and public images was almost gone. I personally don't think Motown knew what to do anymore. That's why they started signing people like Commodores, Rick James, etc who came with their own songs, own shows, and in James' case, an image Motown old schoolers would have had a coronary over. High inergy was the only Motown group who were of the old Motown ways and it did not work. Seemed like nobody wanted "nice" girl groups. By the 80's it was all about The Mary Jane Girls and others who were singing about straight up sex.

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Yeah, when you think about groups like the Staple Singers and such, having hits with this heavy gospel influence, it would seem a perfect marriage for JML. I'm starting to think now that where producers go, my first choice for the follow up to Floy Joy is Ashford and Simpson.
    It never dawned on me to consider Willie Hutch, but I think it’s a brilliant idea. It would give Jean a chance to veer away from Rossnosity and make the group her own. Love this!

    anyone at Motown could record anyone at Motown if that artist wanted to work with them. There was nothing stopping smoky or Willie Hutch or anybody from working with The Supremes if they wanted to. I don’t think smoky wanted to work at The Supremes the first time but he did it as a favor to Barry Gordy because he was vice president of that group label. The success of the album would certainly have inspired him to do another one as it wasn’t all that busy. He wasn’t touring, and for a guy who is used to working a lot, just working on his own solo stuff would be considered taking it easy.

    of course everyone would like Marvin Gaye to do everything, and I agree in a perfect world he might do some wonderful things with them, but he wasn’t exactly someone that could work producing others successfully because he spent so much time crafting his work and playing around with vocals endlessly. I don’t think it would ever Cross his mind to work with the Supremes or any other artist the way he worked on his own material.

    Addressing something mentioned earlier, I believe it was you, but whoever it was: I disagree that the public gave a damn word about the style of music the Supremes or any act did, as long as they liked the sound. A good commercial record is a good commercial record regardless who sings it and it works, it works. It might not ultimately be the best thing for an act in the long run, but a hit is a hit and The Supremes needed to hit badly. So, I think any genre would work for them and they came close with several things on opposite side of the scale. Bad weather and, I guess I’ll miss the man, in my opinion, both had great potential to become hits, But they needed a fair amount of tweaking. I don’t believe Deke Richards crafted I guess I’ll miss the man to go out as a single. That is not the kind a song on the Supremes are known for but they could have had a hit with it if it was a better record, and the same goes for bad weather. Nothing could have saved touch, I know a lot of people like it, but as a radio single it’s a hot mess.

    at the time, I was clinging to the last thread of The Supremes wanting desperately to dig them again, hear them on the radio again, be mesmerized in shows again, but it just wasn’t happening. All this at a time when I got to know them enough to grab a burger after the show with them and get backstage.....very strange. When I heard Jimmy Webb, after being told how great it was going to be, my heart sank. There was nothing close to a radio single there. It doesn’t matter if it’s a good album or a bad album, they needed a hit record, a big hit record, and it was nothing even close. Willie Hutch I love that idea!

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    Wondering why they did release I Guess I'll Miss The Man other than the fact that Motown was backing the Broadway show Pippin. It only hit #85, yet the Jackson 5 released Corner of The Sky and it hit #18. Was it just a better song or was there more push behind the Jacksons by this time? When Mary wrote Supreme Faith, she says she met with Smokey after Jean left and told him she wanted to sing lead now since she could not rely on any besides herself staying. She says he agreed and would talk to Motown execs who said they wanted her to find a third girl who could assume lead and Mary could do part of the lead. Smokey allegedly told her he was going to record them when she found the third girl. I wonder if he was just blowing smoke. By the time they were recording with this new grouping, they recorded a number of songs with a variety of producers. Thinking of hit singles, they were expanding and changing their sound with Nathan Jones, Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine which all hit the top 40. I wonder if those songs would have done better if they were seen on television like they were with Ladder, Everybody and Stoned Love. Yes, I agree songs like Touch, Bad Weather and I Guess I'll Miss The Man were not the sound the general public was used to hearing from the Supremes and that Jimmy Webb did not have any song that sounded like a hit-the only song I really like on that was I Keep It Hid. I wonder if there was any reason why other producers at Motown did not want to produce the Supremes, there are a number of interesting speculations.

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    If I’m correct she said that motown didn’t think she could carry the lead all by herself, but she was given part of the lead if she could find a girl who could handle the rest. The. Smokey said he’ll start recording her and when she finds a third girl , she’ll share the lead. As far as what they should have done, I still wondered what if they did the Stevie material that ended up on Syreeta’s second album
    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Wondering why they did release I Guess I'll Miss The Man other than the fact that Motown was backing the Broadway show Pippin. It only hit #85, yet the Jackson 5 released Corner of The Sky and it hit #18. Was it just a better song or was there more push behind the Jacksons by this time? When Mary wrote Supreme Faith, she says she met with Smokey after Jean left and told him she wanted to sing lead now since she could not rely on any besides herself staying. She says he agreed and would talk to Motown execs who said they wanted her to find a third girl who could assume lead and Mary could do part of the lead. Smokey allegedly told her he was going to record them when she found the third girl. I wonder if he was just blowing smoke. By the time they were recording with this new grouping, they recorded a number of songs with a variety of producers. Thinking of hit singles, they were expanding and changing their sound with Nathan Jones, Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine which all hit the top 40. I wonder if those songs would have done better if they were seen on television like they were with Ladder, Everybody and Stoned Love. Yes, I agree songs like Touch, Bad Weather and I Guess I'll Miss The Man were not the sound the general public was used to hearing from the Supremes and that Jimmy Webb did not have any song that sounded like a hit-the only song I really like on that was I Keep It Hid. I wonder if there was any reason why other producers at Motown did not want to produce the Supremes, there are a number of interesting speculations.

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Wondering why they did release I Guess I'll Miss The Man other than the fact that Motown was backing the Broadway show Pippin. It only hit #85, yet the Jackson 5 released Corner of The Sky and it hit #18. Was it just a better song or was there more push behind the Jacksons by this time? When Mary wrote Supreme Faith, she says she met with Smokey after Jean left and told him she wanted to sing lead now since she could not rely on any besides herself staying. She says he agreed and would talk to Motown execs who said they wanted her to find a third girl who could assume lead and Mary could do part of the lead. Smokey allegedly told her he was going to record them when she found the third girl. I wonder if he was just blowing smoke. By the time they were recording with this new grouping, they recorded a number of songs with a variety of producers. Thinking of hit singles, they were expanding and changing their sound with Nathan Jones, Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine which all hit the top 40. I wonder if those songs would have done better if they were seen on television like they were with Ladder, Everybody and Stoned Love. Yes, I agree songs like Touch, Bad Weather and I Guess I'll Miss The Man were not the sound the general public was used to hearing from the Supremes and that Jimmy Webb did not have any song that sounded like a hit-the only song I really like on that was I Keep It Hid. I wonder if there was any reason why other producers at Motown did not want to produce the Supremes, there are a number of interesting speculations.
    It was 1972, the Jackson 5 was more popular than the Supremes. By 1973, both groups would start to struggle [[though the J5 still had top 40s and one more top 10 hit before they left, which you couldn't say about most Motown acts, plus the J5 still had youth on their side whereas the Supremes, now pushing 30 save for Cindy who was 33 in 1972, didn't).

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Wondering why they did release I Guess I'll Miss The Man other than the fact that Motown was backing the Broadway show Pippin. It only hit #85, yet the Jackson 5 released Corner of The Sky and it hit #18. Was it just a better song or was there more push behind the Jacksons by this time? When Mary wrote Supreme Faith, she says she met with Smokey after Jean left and told him she wanted to sing lead now since she could not rely on any besides herself staying. She says he agreed and would talk to Motown execs who said they wanted her to find a third girl who could assume lead and Mary could do part of the lead. Smokey allegedly told her he was going to record them when she found the third girl. I wonder if he was just blowing smoke. By the time they were recording with this new grouping, they recorded a number of songs with a variety of producers. Thinking of hit singles, they were expanding and changing their sound with Nathan Jones, Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine which all hit the top 40. I wonder if those songs would have done better if they were seen on television like they were with Ladder, Everybody and Stoned Love. Yes, I agree songs like Touch, Bad Weather and I Guess I'll Miss The Man were not the sound the general public was used to hearing from the Supremes and that Jimmy Webb did not have any song that sounded like a hit-the only song I really like on that was I Keep It Hid. I wonder if there was any reason why other producers at Motown did not want to produce the Supremes, there are a number of interesting speculations.
    mary couldn’t carry the lead at all vocally or with her stage acumen. There’s not even a chance if it. Occasional, powerful lead, yes for sure.

    I think IGIMTM was a great song and, if fully flashed out, could easily have hit like killing <evSoftly and First time ever I saw your face, but Jean garbles the lyrics and there’s not enough bg - plus the ending is horrid for radio.

    if Smokey wanted to record The Supremes he certainly could have I don’t think he want to.

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    Smokey's mind was elsewhere in 1972... the Smokey that wrote and produced Floy Joy was not the same one who co-wrote and produced all those hits for Mary Wells, the Temptations, Marvin Gaye and the Marvelettes and his own group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    mary couldn’t carry the lead at all vocally or with her stage acumen. There’s not even a chance if it. Occasional, powerful lead, yes for sure.

    I think IGIMTM was a great song and, if fully flashed out, could easily have hit like killing <evSoftly and First time ever I saw your face, but Jean garbles the lyrics and there’s not enough bg - plus the ending is horrid for radio.

    if Smokey wanted to record The Supremes he certainly could have I don’t think he want to.
    I agree ... it was too late to push Mary as the lead or too soon.
    I thought Deke Richards had something to to do with IGIMTM but I could be wrong. I am not sure who made the decision for this material to be recorded but I am more surprised that the ladies agreed to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    I agree ... it was too late to push Mary as the lead or too soon.
    I thought Deke Richards had something to to do with IGIMTM but I could be wrong. I am not sure who made the decision for this material to be recorded but I am more surprised that the ladies agreed to it.
    Deke and Sherlie Matthews produced IGILTM, as well as CORNER OF THE SKY by the Jackson 5. Both were from the Broadway musical PIPPIN which Motown had an investment in. So it is only natural that Motown would want some of its acts to record songs from the show.

    Diana also recorded CORNER OF THE SKY on her first solo live album and Michael Jackson recorded another song from the show, MORNING GLOW but it was produced by Bob Gaudio.
    Last edited by reese; 07-27-2020 at 01:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    looking over the chart activity in 72, i ran across Al Green and Let's Stay Together. starting thinking about how he might have worked as a producer for the girls

    some of the fan rumors and discussions have said J and L wanted to go more R&B with the group while Mary wanted to stay with the pop and sequins. Al would certainly have qualified for that!

    and back at the motown camp, i'm surprised they didn't do more with Clay McMurray. he recorded a bunch of stuff on the girls and was also hot with GKATP
    Al Green was a songwriter, but not a producer. Willie Mitchell produced all of those great Al cuts. I'm crazy about me some Al Grits, but I don't particularly care for his style being paired up with the Supremes. Interesting concept though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    another interesting option within motown would be Johnny Bristol. he definitely had a more r&b slant:
    Johnny Bristol was on my list during a previous thread about who the ladies might have done well being paired with right out the gate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    They’ve must have had some input in regards to their shows. I doubt it was Mary because if that was the case I’m sure she would have had more leads than what she had during this period. I’m assuming it was their current manager and/or Gill that put the show together.
    I pulled out Mary's second book because you and Sup Fan piqued my curiosity as to who exactly was running the group at this point. As Mary's second book is the only thorough history that I know of, regarding the 70s Supremes, I have to consult her words to get a clearer picture of what might have been going on. I found a couple of interesting things.


    The first is page 68: "In June [1972] we switched managers and started working with Shelly Berger...All during a meeting to discuss our upcoming summer tour with the Temptations, the managers and Motown people talked around Lynda, Jean and me as if we weren't there."


    Page 70, in a diary entry dated August 1972, Mary writes: "The review we received in DC was terrible. The critic said, 'They lacked a gutsy, down-home sound.' We 'should give up giggling and act natural...parodies of a former time.'...We've got to get our people at Motown to see that music has changed, and we want to keep up, not die."


    Page 75: Mary discusses an engagement at a small Canadian club that reminded her of a Ramada Inn dining room. For this appearance the group was being paid 13 grand, when months before they had been making as much as 50 grand. According to Mary, booking agents and Motown received about a quarter of the gross, while expenses and payroll took 50-90 percent, sometimes leaving JML with pennies. It was actually costing them money to perform, rather than working for a profit. It's at this point that JML start talking about the "what if" of leaving Motown.


    Page 79: Mary secures a meeting with Ewart Abner, to which Jean and Lynda never show up. Ewart told her that Frank Wilson was ready to go back in with the group and had a song ready. He also said that Thom Bell [[on many of our wish lists of producers) had flown in to discuss the possibility of a future project for the Supremes. During this meeting, according to Mary, she complained to Ewart about the lack of Motown promotion on the group's behalf, claiming that fans did a better promo job than Motown was doing. Ewart promised to get on this.


    My thoughts in the following post.

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    So IMO it would appear, at least during the Jean years, the Supremes were still every bit as controlled by Motown as they had been during the sixties. Mary wasn't making any more creative decisions than she had during the Diana years. I wish I had consulted the book previously. Some of my critiques of Mary during the Jean years appear to be invalid. And if Mary had no control, what chance did Jean, and especially Lynda have?


    I think at the point that Lynda suggested and then spoke to Stevie about recording them, they had finally realized some measure of control. This move was probably made easier because it was in-house Motown also. But when "Bad Weather" failed, I think it disillusioned Jean tremendously. Mary mentions that by the time Jean announced that she was ready to quit the group, Mary had already taken steps to gain even more control from Motown, which prompted what Mary believed was a covert call to obtain inside information on her plans by Berry Gordy. But it was all apparently too late for Jean, and thus Lynda.


    I referenced page 75 because I think it speaks to a lot of Jean's frustrations. Mary goes on to write that the Supremes were working constantly, overworked really, just like during the Diana years, but with no hit record and hit album money coming in, and the group basically paying to work instead of the other way around. Who can fault Jean for losing enthusiasm? And when Mary starts mentioning Jean's sicknesses, it calls back to my mind Flo's problem with the Supremes being overworked. Some like to paint the picture of Florence being less professional than either Diana and Mary; a homebody who loved to sing but didn't love to perform. I have never found any evidence that this was true. The body can only take so much wear and tear, and when you're on stage night after night, under hot lights, sometimes wearing heavy gowns, sleep deprived, encountering all kinds of airborne germs and viruses, it can take a toll. While Flo was being robbed blind, just like Diana and Mary, at the time, at least she worried for nothing financially, despite any issues she had with working conditions. At least Flo had a lot of perks. Jean's situation was worse. She was overworked and had absolutely nothing to show for it. I'm surprised she [[along with Mary) didn't go "postal".


    So the way I see it, what happened to the Supremes up through Jean and Lynda's exit was a fault of Motown, not Mary, unless one wants to also lay blame on Jean, Lynda, and maybe even Cindy too. The Supremes would not be the first Motown act to be on top only to find themselves an after thought as opposed to a priority, so in that respect their story wasn't unique. However, for the Supremes- as in a name- to go from the heights it soared and then down to the bargain basement, yeah, that was Motown's fault. The group should've never been allowed to fall so far so quickly. Were there secret Motown meetings on how to kill the group or warnings for people not to make the group a priority? Nah. Was there ever a meeting on "We gotta get a hit on the Supremes?" Doubt that too. If Motown wanted the Supremes to succeed, they would have thrown their weight behind them. It's not like there were a ton of artists at the label that spread the company's abilities too thin, as may have been the case in the 60s. They just weren't a priority and the Supremes did not have the ability to do for themselves what Motown was supposed to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    It never dawned on me to consider Willie Hutch, but I think it’s a brilliant idea. It would give Jean a chance to veer away from Rossnosity and make the group her own. Love this!
    Yeah, I really think Jean, and Mary and Lynda honestly, would have really fit with the sound Willie was crafting. I also think he would have been great when Scherrie came in also. I could hear her killing something like Willie's "Love Power".

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    anyone at Motown could record anyone at Motown if that artist wanted to work with them. There was nothing stopping smoky or Willie Hutch or anybody from working with The Supremes if they wanted to. I don’t think smoky wanted to work at The Supremes the first time but he did it as a favor to Barry Gordy because he was vice president of that group label. The success of the album would certainly have inspired him to do another one as it wasn’t all that busy. He wasn’t touring, and for a guy who is used to working a lot, just working on his own solo stuff would be considered taking it easy.
    What evidence is there that Berry asked Smokey to do it or that he didn't want to do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Addressing something mentioned earlier, I believe it was you, but whoever it was: I disagree that the public gave a damn word about the style of music the Supremes or any act did, as long as they liked the sound. A good commercial record is a good commercial record regardless who sings it and it works, it works. It might not ultimately be the best thing for an act in the long run, but a hit is a hit and The Supremes needed to hit badly. So, I think any genre would work for them and they came close with several things on opposite side of the scale.
    Sorry but I don't believe this. When acts stray too far outside of what they were known for, they were often met with a lack of success. The style that Sup Fan referenced was not going to fly with the Supremes' R&B audience, and there's no reason to believe that the group's pop audience would've taken them any more seriously. Remember, part of the charm of the singer/songwriter "period" is how personal the entire process was with that particular artist. Unless the Supremes were going to write their own material, this really doesn't fit them. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. As I mentioned before, I think if Carole King had been brought in to do the Supremes' album instead of Jimmy Webb, she had a certain quality that I think would have leant itself well to the Supremes staying true to themselves while also stepping into a bit of new territory. Nothing about JW says this would've been the case. I agree, the group needed a hit badly, but why think so far outside the box, when the box was working for awhile and seemed to be doing extremely well for so many others?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Bad weather and, I guess I’ll miss the man, in my opinion, both had great potential to become hits, But they needed a fair amount of tweaking. I don’t believe Deke Richards crafted I guess I’ll miss the man to go out as a single. That is not the kind a song on the Supremes are known for but they could have had a hit with it if it was a better record, and the same goes for bad weather. Nothing could have saved touch, I know a lot of people like it, but as a radio single it’s a hot mess.
    I think "Bad Weather" needed a bit more punch in the groove. I find no fault in Jean's vocal, or Mary and Lynda's, or the writing. But there was a bit of punch that was usually present in a Stevie hit that was missing from the instrumentation of "Bad Weather". And while this is probably the most insignificant of critiques that could have any bearing on the outcome of the record, I have to say that the title of "Think I'm Going To Run Into Bad Weather", which Mary says was the original working title, seems more catchy than the simple "Bad Weather". Maybe that's a nitpick, but it resonates with me.

    Is it possible that "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" was released to satisfy a need for product as opposed to being recorded specifically for single release? Interesting scenario to ponder. I suspect though that it was recorded and released as intended. It is a beautiful vocal by Jean, but it's failure may, again, speak to my point about going outside the box. Give this song to Barbara Streisand or Dionne Warwick, as is, no deviations, and it's probably a hit. Certainly charting better than it did. In the hands of the Supremes, I imagine people heard it and said "That's the Supremes? PASS!".

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    Ran - keep in mind that Mary is the author of that book and so it makes sense that her POV might not be fully objective. or that she may or may not account for her actions in such a way that puts herself in a bad light.

    not discounting her story totally. but i think it's just one version of what probably happened.

    unfortunately, of course, we don't have bios from Jean or Cindy or Lynda. or others that worked with the group. some of the fans that were active with the group during the 70s have their versions. again, probably need to take those with a grain of salt too

    One that i do feel holds some truth is that Jean and Mary had differing viewpoints on group direction. Mary mentions in her book that she firmly supported the Sups glamour girl image and mentions how both Jean and, later, Scherrie had different thoughts on it.

    So how was responsible for the more questionable career decisions in the early 70s? honestly i don't know for sure. I do feel that Mary input than others but that's speculation

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Wondering why they did release I Guess I'll Miss The Man other than the fact that Motown was backing the Broadway show Pippin. It only hit #85, yet the Jackson 5 released Corner of The Sky and it hit #18. Was it just a better song or was there more push behind the Jacksons by this time? When Mary wrote Supreme Faith, she says she met with Smokey after Jean left and told him she wanted to sing lead now since she could not rely on any besides herself staying. She says he agreed and would talk to Motown execs who said they wanted her to find a third girl who could assume lead and Mary could do part of the lead. Smokey allegedly told her he was going to record them when she found the third girl. I wonder if he was just blowing smoke. By the time they were recording with this new grouping, they recorded a number of songs with a variety of producers. Thinking of hit singles, they were expanding and changing their sound with Nathan Jones, Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine which all hit the top 40. I wonder if those songs would have done better if they were seen on television like they were with Ladder, Everybody and Stoned Love. Yes, I agree songs like Touch, Bad Weather and I Guess I'll Miss The Man were not the sound the general public was used to hearing from the Supremes and that Jimmy Webb did not have any song that sounded like a hit-the only song I really like on that was I Keep It Hid. I wonder if there was any reason why other producers at Motown did not want to produce the Supremes, there are a number of interesting speculations.
    i get why motown was interested in I Guess. seems that part of the problem of it's chart ranking is promotion. seems like a real lack of coordination with what they were doing on tv and what was being released:

    Floy Joy was released in Dec and MJC performed it on Merv Griffin in Jan - so that's a good one

    then no known tv appearances until June?!??! that's idiotic. even if Cindy was expecting they could have done SOME tv work.

    June - David Frost show and they perform Tossing and talk about their Jimmy Webb work. ok nice to see them discuss an album and their work but why here? the album wouldnt be released until Oct!! and they just released Auto Sun. There is also a Dick Cavett performance in June

    July YWSSL released

    Sept - they released I Guess and appear on Sonny & Cher doing YWSSL

    Oct - the Flip Wilson show airs and they're still doing YWSSL

    They would eventually perform I Guess on two tv shows but not until early 73. by then the momentum of the single was long gone

    i realize that the tape date and air dates are often very different. but still - some forward thinking and coordination could have helped

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Ran - keep in mind that Mary is the author of that book and so it makes sense that her POV might not be fully objective. or that she may or may not account for her actions in such a way that puts herself in a bad light.

    not discounting her story totally. but i think it's just one version of what probably happened.

    unfortunately, of course, we don't have bios from Jean or Cindy or Lynda. or others that worked with the group. some of the fans that were active with the group during the 70s have their versions. again, probably need to take those with a grain of salt too

    One that i do feel holds some truth is that Jean and Mary had differing viewpoints on group direction. Mary mentions in her book that she firmly supported the Sups glamour girl image and mentions how both Jean and, later, Scherrie had different thoughts on it.

    So how was responsible for the more questionable career decisions in the early 70s? honestly i don't know for sure. I do feel that Mary input than others but that's speculation
    Well of course it's Mary's POV, but her book has to be considered the source for the 70s Supremes because there is no other source available. To be fair to Mary, what evidence is there to suggest that she took over the group after Diana's exit? I have no doubt that there were times that Cindy, Jean and Lynda looked to Mary to lead on certain things because I'm sure they all recognized that at the end of the day, the Supremes was Mary's group. But how did Mary go from Mary Wilson of the Supremes having her life scheduled down to the minute by Motown to Mary Wilson, director of all things Supremes? I personally believe it happened just as she said it did: right around the time Jean decided she was done, Mary decided to take control. By then Jean and Lynda were running for the exit. [[I wonder too if they ran even faster when they realized Mary was going for control, and thought her incapable.) By the time Cindy came back and Scherrie came on board, this is where Mary's decisions become most critical. And even then it's hard to throw the full book at her because both she and the group were being hovered over by a man who beat his wife for yelling at his brother.

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    no i hear ya - there really isn't much published content about the group aside from Mary's book. And Jean's dvd was pretty lacking in any major insights

    In talking with fans and all of the years of feedback on here, you have Randy, Bayou and others that engaged with these women either during and/or after the Supremes years. these comments and memories tend to show a bit different story. of course there could be questions of accuracy and all. and i don't want to put words in their mouths either. Many of them recall that the problems between Mary and Jean started much earlier and they both had very different ideas of the direction of the group. Now i don't think anyone is saying that M and J were constantly fighting. sure there were many times they got along just fine.

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    Take note that none of them were there in the day to day operations recording sessions or planning phases. Same as you made a point about Mary’s POV, anyone else I also would take it with a grain of salt.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    no i hear ya - there really isn't much published content about the group aside from Mary's book. And Jean's dvd was pretty lacking in any major insights

    In talking with fans and all of the years of feedback on here, you have Randy, Bayou and others that engaged with these women either during and/or after the Supremes years. these comments and memories tend to show a bit different story. of course there could be questions of accuracy and all. and i don't want to put words in their mouths either. Many of them recall that the problems between Mary and Jean started much earlier and they both had very different ideas of the direction of the group. Now i don't think anyone is saying that M and J were constantly fighting. sure there were many times they got along just fine.

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    If I’m correct they were on the road from feb thru mid April. Lynda auditioned mid March during their run at the Elmwood Casino. And if I’m correct, they were about to go to Australia when Jean got sick and had to cancel the tour.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i get why motown was interested in I Guess. seems that part of the problem of it's chart ranking is promotion. seems like a real lack of coordination with what they were doing on tv and what was being released:

    Floy Joy was released in Dec and MJC performed it on Merv Griffin in Jan - so that's a good one

    then no known tv appearances until June?!??! that's idiotic. even if Cindy was expecting they could have done SOME tv work.

    June - David Frost show and they perform Tossing and talk about their Jimmy Webb work. ok nice to see them discuss an album and their work but why here? the album wouldnt be released until Oct!! and they just released Auto Sun. There is also a Dick Cavett performance in June

    July YWSSL released

    Sept - they released I Guess and appear on Sonny & Cher doing YWSSL

    Oct - the Flip Wilson show airs and they're still doing YWSSL

    They would eventually perform I Guess on two tv shows but not until early 73. by then the momentum of the single was long gone

    i realize that the tape date and air dates are often very different. but still - some forward thinking and coordination could have helped

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Take note that none of them were there in the day to day operations recording sessions or planning phases. Same as you made a point about Mary’s POV, anyone else I also would take it with a grain of salt.
    completely agree. they would have been on the side of things back then. or else talking to one of the ladies at a much later time. But it does provide insight into other points of view. something to listen to and consider but not necessarily accept with blind faith

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    If I’m correct they were on the road from feb thru mid April. Lynda auditioned mid March during their run at the Elmwood Casino. And if I’m correct, they were about to go to Australia when Jean got sick and had to cancel the tour.
    i'll be the first to admit that my list could have holes in it.

    I have the Merv show on 1/27 but i think that's the air date. not filming.

    in FEb 72 i have the girls back at Frontier in Vegas

    then April in Hilo Center in Hawaii

    June is Copa in NYC and Palmer House in Chicago, plus Dick Cavett and David Frost

    I know Mary mentioned the Elmwood appearance and that flo attended a show. but i don't have any dates of that

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    It was a 2 week engagement from March 6 thru March 18th. During that period was when Lynda auditioned and Flo seeing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i'll be the first to admit that my list could have holes in it.

    I have the Merv show on 1/27 but i think that's the air date. not filming.

    in FEb 72 i have the girls back at Frontier in Vegas

    then April in Hilo Center in Hawaii

    June is Copa in NYC and Palmer House in Chicago, plus Dick Cavett and David Frost

    I know Mary mentioned the Elmwood appearance and that flo attended a show. but i don't have any dates of that

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    Also Mary’s grandfather had died and she went to the funeral in Mississippi sometime late April

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    It was a 2 week engagement from March 6 thru March 18th. During that period was when Lynda auditioned and Flo seeing them.
    thanks!! have updated my excel sheet

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    i wonder if there were promotional engagements or things that were scheduled [[even tentatively) but had to be dropped due to the personnel change. while they certainly wouldn't have stopped everything, the change would have interrupted things. and at such a critical time too. the big stumble of the Touch single and the poor performance of the duets and Touch lp. To then have ANOTHER girl leave is really unfortunate

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Yeah, I really think Jean, and Mary and Lynda honestly, would have really fit with the sound Willie was crafting. I also think he would have been great when Scherrie came in also. I could hear her killing something like Willie's "Love Power".



    What evidence is there that Berry asked Smokey to do it or that he didn't want to do it?



    Sorry but I don't believe this. When acts stray too far outside of what they were known for, they were often met with a lack of success. The style that Sup Fan referenced was not going to fly with the Supremes' R&B audience, and there's no reason to believe that the group's pop audience would've taken them any more seriously. Remember, part of the charm of the singer/songwriter "period" is how personal the entire process was with that particular artist. Unless the Supremes were going to write their own material, this really doesn't fit them. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. As I mentioned before, I think if Carole King had been brought in to do the Supremes' album instead of Jimmy Webb, she had a certain quality that I think would have leant itself well to the Supremes staying true to themselves while also stepping into a bit of new territory. Nothing about JW says this would've been the case. I agree, the group needed a hit badly, but why think so far outside the box, when the box was working for awhile and seemed to be doing extremely well for so many others?

    in theory, I agree with you, however, this act needed a hit - any hit IMO - to stay alive. You can’t build a following on Floy Joy. I think a hit n an unfamiliar genre might have led them into a new, positive direction. Even DMC slipped some due to the off time from Reflections to Love Child. The box, in this case never really worked as JMC began to slip from day one. They needed that big smash but only got “hits”...music was evolving and their box was not. Three Degrees, Labelle and Honey Cone were fresh and new while JMC were wearing the gowns and beating a ten year old act to death. They seemed old and passe’.



    I think "Bad Weather" needed a bit more punch in the groove. I find no fault in Jean's vocal, or Mary and Lynda's, or the writing. But there was a bit of punch that was usually present in a Stevie hit that was missing from the instrumentation of "Bad Weather". And while this is probably the most insignificant of critiques that could have any bearing on the outcome of the record, I have to say that the title of "Think I'm Going To Run Into Bad Weather", which Mary says was the original working title, seems more catchy than the simple "Bad Weather". Maybe that's a nitpick, but it resonates with me.

    in retrospect, Jean’s Recorded vocal is fine. In ‘73, it was a screeeeetchy mess that most folks hated. Everyone I played it for Literally winced. There’s a reason it was totally dismissed by radio even with Stevie’s name attached.

    Is it possible that "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" was released to satisfy a need for product as opposed to being recorded specifically for single release? Interesting scenario to ponder. I suspect though that it was recorded and released as intended. It is a beautiful vocal by Jean, but it's failure may, again, speak to my point about going outside the box. Give this song to Barbara Streisand or Dionne Warwick, as is, no deviations, and it's probably a hit. Certainly charting better than it did. In the hands of the Supremes, I imagine people heard it and said "That's the Supremes? PASS!".
    renember it was program directors that had the first vote and they’re open to anything they think people will not change the channel on. That’s their only criteria. Babs and Dionne were both not charting then much either, so I disagree. The song, as produced is too simple. List to First Time Ever or Killing Me Softly - those are brilliant productions. There was never any song on top 40 pop or R&B that was as plain as IGIMTM.

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    Re: Mary/Jean dynamic: my experience as a fan sometimes around them off stage Was that Jean was nice enough to me, Cindy was sweet and very very nice, and Mary was fun and very very nice. I never noticed a strong togetherness between Mary and Jean and I did begin to notice what seemed like tension. Years later, Cindy explained to me that Mary wanted very much to be in total charge of the group and that you were either on her side or you were on the other side, and if you were on her side, and things went smoothly then everything was wonderful. She told me it was that way when she joined the group in 1967. Mary was flat out Telling Cindy she had to side with her but Cindy resisted as much as she could, but ultimately, she spent a lot more time with mary than she did diana and so she placated Mary enough to try to keep peace, and that from the day Cindy joined the group, Mary was no fan of diana ross. And I’m not passing judgment one way or another everybody has their reasons for doing whatever it is they do, but I feel that the group dynamic that emerged from Jean Mary Cindy Was not at all what Mary had expected, end it got much worse when lynda joined because there was already a divide when she got there. I’m not sure whose side I am on, I think The lead singer could certainly have a strong vote in decisions, yet, Mary had the tenure and ensuing vision. Ultimately, I think Jean acted in an unprofessional manner and am glad she split. Hits or no hits, she was not going to take orders from Mary and definitely would never have dealt with Pedro.
    i think The new Supremes suffered from individual agendas a lot more than they care to admit.

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    maniac - that's a very fair and honest assessment of the situation. i've heard pretty much the same from a variety of fans

    Mary was an excellent entertainer and understood that element of show biz. and she was a good singer

    Jean was a stunning vocalist and a good entertainer. It's almost like their the inverse of each other

    Mary was determined to run the group and Jean wasn't a pushover. Jean was also the designated lead singer. She understood that she could really SING. no slight to Mary but Jean had more capabilities and talent vocally.

    So you had a gifted entertainer and a gifted singer with opposing views of things and both thinking they should lead the group's direction

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    I Guess I’ll Miss the Man was a clunker, a dud, and a downer. At best, it was an album cut, never a single.

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    I Guess I'll Miss the Man is a beautiful performance by Jean Terrell but probably shouldn't have been a single. I would have opted for 5:30 Plane.

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    I Guess is a beautiful, tender ballad. from a "sound" standpoint it's perfect for 72. less studio gimmicks, acoustic. But the "subject matter" is a downer. Helen Reddy's I Am Woman had just been released that spring so this couldn't be more of an opposite topic.

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    Considering that the Carpenters, Neil Diamond, Cat Stevens and a slew of others were having major acoustic big hits at the time, and the last 2 RnB funk singles failed, IGIMTM was a good bet for a AOR airplay single....I maintain it is one of Jean's most committed performances.....BAD WEATHER was too jazzy for AM Pop radio...to me the horns sounded off pitch...not one person I played it for then or since thought it was a good record.

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    Reading on the post-Diana Supremes saga may be messier than when the original trio were together... :/

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