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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Ran - motown did intend to shelve the group when J and L left. at the point, the company had no interest in continuing the supremes and felt the group was done. They were an expensive act with costumes and recording and stage shows etc. I really don't know the full story of how/why the Sups were allowed to continue. When J and L left in late 73 there were a few dates still but motown could have simply cancelled the shows, worked with the promoters to put another act in. I can't believe they didn't just drop the act altogether

    There have been stories floating around that Mary personally appealed to Berry about not being dropped. I can imagine she would be panicking at this time. motown would certainly not have kept her on as a solo act. and there were no groups for her to join on the label. And she had not other immediate opportunities, unless she followed J and L to another label. So she'd be unemployed

    The story goes that Berry felt sorry for her and basically agreed not to drop her or the act
    Whatever precipitated the decision, Motown decided to continue with the group. Doesn't make sense to do that if the initial decision was to let it faze out. Mary says in her book that the label was basically content to let the group disappear. I can't remember if she wrote that she appealed to Berry or not.

    While Motown wasn't the Motown of the 60s, it was still a record label that refused to let it's acts have a whole lot of freedom. So somebody somewhere was greenlighting decisions. Mary, nor Pedro, had that kind of power. Motown released "He's My Man" because they thought it might hit. Whatever amount of promo they put behind the group, it's singles, it's albums, they had to feel some type of stake in it or the Scherrie years would've been a group recording but seeing no releases. So why go through putting a cent into this group whose name is so valuable and not give it 110 percent?

    Maybe Mary should've gone solo when Jean and Lynda left. While I tend to think of the Scherrie years as Mary finding that one stepping stone to independence that she needed, maybe it ended up doing her more harm than good. I wonder how things may have fared for her had she left after "Bad Weather". Roberta Flack was having great success at the time. Maybe Mary would have heard her as inspiration and marketed herself as a balladeer-ess, which is one of her strengths. Who knows?

  2. #52
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    I think Labelle was on cusp of super stars but broke up.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Whatever precipitated the decision, Motown decided to continue with the group. Doesn't make sense to do that if the initial decision was to let it faze out. Mary says in her book that the label was basically content to let the group disappear. I can't remember if she wrote that she appealed to Berry or not.

    While Motown wasn't the Motown of the 60s, it was still a record label that refused to let it's acts have a whole lot of freedom. So somebody somewhere was greenlighting decisions. Mary, nor Pedro, had that kind of power. Motown released "He's My Man" because they thought it might hit. Whatever amount of promo they put behind the group, it's singles, it's albums, they had to feel some type of stake in it or the Scherrie years would've been a group recording but seeing no releases. So why go through putting a cent into this group whose name is so valuable and not give it 110 percent?

    Maybe Mary should've gone solo when Jean and Lynda left. While I tend to think of the Scherrie years as Mary finding that one stepping stone to independence that she needed, maybe it ended up doing her more harm than good. I wonder how things may have fared for her had she left after "Bad Weather". Roberta Flack was having great success at the time. Maybe Mary would have heard her as inspiration and marketed herself as a balladeer-ess, which is one of her strengths. Who knows?
    the stories i've heard from fans on here and in discussions is that Mary and Pedro sort of DID have that power. the word "power" might be the wrong one. For the most part, Motown didn't really care. But they whatever little interest motown had in the group revolved around using Scherrie as lead. hence the first single pic of It's All Been Said. The story goes M and P insisted on HMM since it's mostly Mary on lead.

    Also there are the stories that Motown was interested in releasing HE as a single but M and P vetoed it.

    of course these are stories and none of us were there to confirm it

  4. #54
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    I agree with Ran. If Mary or Pedro had that much power in regards of singles, then they would have pushed more of her songs to be released instead of Scherrie’s leads

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Whatever precipitated the decision, Motown decided to continue with the group. Doesn't make sense to do that if the initial decision was to let it faze out. Mary says in her book that the label was basically content to let the group disappear. I can't remember if she wrote that she appealed to Berry or not.

    While Motown wasn't the Motown of the 60s, it was still a record label that refused to let it's acts have a whole lot of freedom. So somebody somewhere was greenlighting decisions. Mary, nor Pedro, had that kind of power. Motown released "He's My Man" because they thought it might hit. Whatever amount of promo they put behind the group, it's singles, it's albums, they had to feel some type of stake in it or the Scherrie years would've been a group recording but seeing no releases. So why go through putting a cent into this group whose name is so valuable and not give it 110 percent?

    Maybe Mary should've gone solo when Jean and Lynda left. While I tend to think of the Scherrie years as Mary finding that one stepping stone to independence that she needed, maybe it ended up doing her more harm than good. I wonder how things may have fared for her had she left after "Bad Weather". Roberta Flack was having great success at the time. Maybe Mary would have heard her as inspiration and marketed herself as a balladeer-ess, which is one of her strengths. Who knows?
    It would be interesting to talk to the person[[s) in charge of distribution to ascertain what the rules were as to where the product was placed for sale. I often lent out the 1975 album and High Energy and the response was "I didn't know the Supremes sounded like that" as in positive. Even in Detroit, it seems that the record stores were only stocked with one or two albums so folks that the record would record the album onto an 8 track tape. There was a lot of that going on in the day of 8 tracks. We knew the owner of Shay's House of Music in Allen Park [[outside of Detroit) and he often didn't receive the latest Motown product. Interestingly, I would find product in a discount bin soon after the release @ Spartan - Atlantic in Dearborn, Mi.. I bought Martha’s Richard Perry album for $2.99 and Diana’s Remember Me for $.99. Lots of good deals. Sometimes it seemed that someone just dumped the product in the discount stores and the regular retail stores got very few or none at all.

  6. #56
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    No product is/was “placed” In stores. Record store owners ordered merchandise just like any other store orders merchandise, if a record store didn’t have a record it’s because they didn’t want that record pier and simple. Because the track record for Supremes albums was poor at the time, many record stores likely chose to See if there was going to Be demand for it before they invested money in an album they were afraid they might get stuck with.

    this is why Motown put ads in Billboard and other trade magazines: in case any of their sales people neglected to let a certain account know About upcoming product, they would see it in Billboard and order it if they felt they wanted to sell it. Record companies did not politely send product out to stores ever without a specific agreement for that record.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Whatever precipitated the decision, Motown decided to continue with the group. Doesn't make sense to do that if the initial decision was to let it faze out. Mary says in her book that the label was basically content to let the group disappear. I can't remember if she wrote that she appealed to Berry or not.

    While Motown wasn't the Motown of the 60s, it was still a record label that refused to let it's acts have a whole lot of freedom. So somebody somewhere was greenlighting decisions. Mary, nor Pedro, had that kind of power. Motown released "He's My Man" because they thought it might hit. Whatever amount of promo they put behind the group, it's singles, it's albums, they had to feel some type of stake in it or the Scherrie years would've been a group recording but seeing no releases. So why go through putting a cent into this group whose name is so valuable and not give it 110 percent?

    Maybe Mary should've gone solo when Jean and Lynda left. While I tend to think of the Scherrie years as Mary finding that one stepping stone to independence that she needed, maybe it ended up doing her more harm than good. I wonder how things may have fared for her had she left after "Bad Weather". Roberta Flack was having great success at the time. Maybe Mary would have heard her as inspiration and marketed herself as a balladeer-ess, which is one of her strengths. Who knows?
    I agree that Mary and Pedro would’ve had no power over any releases and the decisions made there of. Perhaps an exception could’ve been made if they decided to underwrite the release to pay for the production and promotion of the single.

    The ways that Motown promoted its acts is sending promotional copies to record stations and clubs. The fact that he’s my man and it’s all been said before did very well on the Billboard dance charts means that clubs received that album. Disc jockeys did not go to local record stores to find product to play.

    I don’t believe that Motown wanted the group to end in 1973 because they were still making money off of it from their TV and concert appearances. Motown kept a lot of road acts on the label after they stopped selling records for that reason And it didn’t cost them anything to keep them as all their costumes and arrangements and travel and expenses were all covered by the group. Motown didn’t pay for anything for the Supremes or any act that they didn’t bill for.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    I agree with Ran. If Mary or Pedro had that much power in regards of singles, then they would have pushed more of her songs to be released instead of Scherrie’s leads
    to be honest, i don't know who really made the decisions. If Pedro was the group's manager though, wouldn't he be involved in the business affairs of the group? he wasn't "road manager" but Manager.

    And i don't think it's any leap of faith to say that motown had little interest in Mary's voice. and any point from 1961 - 1979. and yet these last 3 albums have about 50% Mary on them.

    Early Morning Love was the follow up to HMM in the UK [[backed with the hideous Where Do I belong lolol). Where Do I Go From Here was only released as a single in the US. And then EML was the flip to Walking and You Are Heart was flip to LYG.

    As i was saying before, I don't think motown was too concerned with what the group was doing. They certainly didn't invest any time, resources or money into promoting the group. Probably just figured "whatever - we'd prefer this song over here but frankly don't give two shits about it. so do what you want"

    Then when Walking actually broke through, motown then probably though "oh well now let's see here. maybe we can do something with these girls" and that's when berry wanted to manage the group again

  9. #59
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    This was a brand new show they were breaking in,from what i heard they got a standing ovation this night,by the time i saw this show,it was tight, Cindy Birdsong was gone,i saw this show when Susaye first join The Supremes,her first show,she got a standing ovation for He Ain't Heavy,Hes My Brother,Mary got a standing ovation for A Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get,Scherrie got a Standing Ovation for My World Is Empty,it was a great show,fans were on top of the table wanting more more more,i also saw this same show in Detroit,it was The Supremes Fan Club Convention,i saw 2 shows,each show they got Standing Ovations,it was EXCITING to see,Yes the music was kinda fast,but it was the time of Disco music,and we loved it,at that time.yes The Supremes Mary Wilson Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene were INCREDIBLE.
    Last edited by REDHOT; 06-12-2020 at 07:11 AM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by REDHOT View Post
    This was a brand new show they were breaking in,from what i heard they got a standing ovation this night,by the time i saw this show,it was tight, Cindy Birdsong was gone,i saw this show when Susaye first join The Supremes,her first show,she got a standing ovation for He Ain't Heavy,Hes My Brother,Mary got a standing ovation for A Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get,Scherrie got a Standing Ovation for My World Is Empty,it was a great show,fans were on top of the table wanting more more more,i also saw this same show in Detroit,it was The Supremes Fan Club Convention,i saw 2 shows,each show they got Standing Ovations,it was EXCITING to see,Yes the music was kinda fast,but it was the time of Disco music,and we loved it,at that time.yes The Supremes Mary Wilson Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene were INCREDIBLE.
    Redhot - would love to hear more!! had you seen the Supremes prior? what lineups and shows?

    was the hall full? did the girls bring in a large crowd?

  11. #61
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    Every show i saw with The Supremes Mary Scherrie and Susaye was a full house, i'll never forget,Susaye's debut with The Supremes @ The Royal Hawaiian in Arlington, Virginia,we[[fans) were so disappointed that Cindy was no longer with The Supremes,so we didn't know what to expect,When The Supremes hit the stage singing This Dream,we fans were sold,the hold show was in a disco feel,again when Susaye Greene sang He Ain't Heavy Hes My Brother,it looked like she got a 5 minute standing ovation, no one mention Cindy's name after that,and don't get me wrong,i LOVE Cindy,but with Mary Scherrie and New comer Susaye[[at that time)it was EXCITING,the second show they open with We Only Just Begun,by the time they made it to Detroit,the word was out,they were great.i notice people are putting them down here,but that was not the feel back in the day,even Motown wanted to take over,but Mary wasn't having it.for good reasons.this show was like a Broadway play,produced by Geoffrey Holder. p.s never seen The Supremes shows with Diana Ross or Florence Ballard. also i never seen The Supremes Shows with the line up Mary Cindy and Scherrie.
    Last edited by REDHOT; 06-14-2020 at 08:18 AM.

  12. #62
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    great memories! love hearing fans share these

    and that's a great description of the style of the show - broadway.

    I really do love the disco material on HE and MS&S. and while i'm a big musicals fan, I'd have liked a bit different of a Sup show. but that's wonderful to hear that the fans were out in full force!

    I have a bootleg of the Bachelor's III in spring 76. Mary mentions at those shows the crowd was thin and you can hear it in the audience. just not many people. But when the girls returned a year later, it was much more heavily attended. I think you're correct that fans were starting to come around to the MSS lineup.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by REDHOT View Post
    This was a brand new show they were breaking in,from what i heard they got a standing ovation this night,by the time i saw this show,it was tight, Cindy Birdsong was gone,i saw this show when Susaye first join The Supremes,her first show,she got a standing ovation for He Ain't Heavy,Hes My Brother,Mary got a standing ovation for A Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get,Scherrie got a Standing Ovation for My World Is Empty,it was a great show,fans were on top of the table wanting more more more,i also saw this same show in Detroit,it was The Supremes Fan Club Convention,i saw 2 shows,each show they got Standing Ovations,it was EXCITING to see,Yes the music was kinda fast,but it was the time of Disco music,and we loved it,at that time.yes The Supremes Mary Wilson Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene were INCREDIBLE.
    Was the Detroit show at the Roostertail?

  14. #64
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    Yes it was The Roostertail, it was shortly after Florence Ballard passed.i'm gonna say it again, The audience loved the show and we, The Supremes Fans loved it,again they were EXCITING to see.they were promoting their latest album at that time High Energy.
    Last edited by REDHOT; 06-15-2020 at 03:51 AM.

  15. #65
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    Good to read that MS&S were so warmly received.
    I will never fully understand how High Energy sold comparatively well while MS&S [[an excellent album) bombed. Perhaps “Driving Wheel killed off all interest in the album much like the single EA did for Diana.
    Had they stayed together, i think the group would have gone out of fashion during the late 70’s, then with some half decent material had a huge resurgence in the 80’s, perhaps even through to the 90’s. If Mary was intent on leaving, perhaps they could have brought Cindy back to retain a smidgen of consistency..

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    i'm just guessing here but i think HE album did well because Walking sold so well [[relatively speaking). So maybe with the club success of Walking, people were compelled to go to the stores and buy it. There was certainly more Billboard promotion of the album so that might have helped stores and all stock it. Both Walking and the HE lp had rather long chart runs. while neither went Top 10, they were both on the charts for a lot of weeks.

    While there was now a national Billboard Dance/Disco chart, they still published the top 10 or so lists for the major cities - Boston, NYC, San Fran, Pittsburgh, Miami, Chicago, etc. As Walking was hitting the charts, it was in the top lists for nearly ALL of the cities. so i'm interpreting that as the song was hugely popular with club djs in all of these cities.

    Both Wheel and MS&S were released in October and Wheel never had the regional club chart activity that Walking did. some cities never saw Wheel enter the top list. other cities had LYG. some had Wheel and LYG. some had Wheel, LYG and LINKYCFSG. Some had Come into my life. so there appears to be more of a disjointed approach across the club markets.

    Also the Caesar's Palace debacle occurred in Dec and Mary announced her departure from the group at that time. Usually lps would start to chart between 4 - 8 weeks from the release date. so it's possible that MS&S MIGHT have started to chart had the group not imploded in dec. But the lukewarm response to Wheel probably didn't help things.

    Also the single version of Wheel as far less interesting than the album version. very different [[and IMO inferior) mix. Walking single was a bit edited i think but essentially the same as the lp version. Plus Walking is just a better song

  17. #67
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    And it must be said Cindy was beloved and she is all over HE album and when MSS came out it was clear-no more Cindy and another Supreme change.

  18. #68
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    To my ears, Driving Wheel was the hardest funk the Supremes ever did. I loved that song from the jump. Now, was it a cross over single material? No. It's not really a pop song. In hindsight, LYG and Love I Never Knew feel like the same song.

  19. #69
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    I loved You're My Driving Wheel...I used to slow it down just a tad...Let Yourself Go also sounded better to me slowed down [[When I got the 12" single of Macho, A Real Real One by Celi Bee, I though the label was misprinted as 45....the version they played on the radio was VERY slowed down) I never bothered with Love I Never Knew...it just went on entirely too long....I like it only up till the verses finish.

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