The Supremes - Mary, Scherrie & Susaye Live @ The Roostertail Detroit!

[marv2]

From 1976 and celebrating the Supremes 15th Anniversary. There is footage from the fan convention towards the end of the video:

[detmotownguy]

Been a while since I have seen this! Even when Susaye is sitting down she has the High Energy! Do you know if they sang This is Why I Believe?

[marv2]

Been a while since I have seen this! Even when Susaye is sitting down she has the High Energy! Do you know if they sang This is Why I Believe?

I don't know if they sang that. I have seen pics of them doing that skit where Susaye plays Marilyn Monroe, Mary Josephine Baker and Scherrie Bessie Smith, I believe were the characters.

[luke]

Their voices are great but performance too frenzied.

[marv2]

Their voices are great but performance too frenzied.

Yeah, I never liked the pace of the "hits" medley. Those songs would have sounded great by these three had they slowed them down and stuck to the original arrangements of the songs. Looking at all these videos recently, makes me want to dig into my own archives. It made me remember how many shows and appearances by Mary Wilson and The Supremes that are not up on Youtube.

[detmotownguy]

Their voices are great but performance too frenzied.

I wonder the tape is speeded up. But other Clips do show them in a bit of a frenzy.

[marv2]

I remember during the week they were in town, they did a guest appearance on our local television dance show called "The Scene" with Nat Morris [[who is a friend of mine). They performed "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" and "You're What's Missing In My Life". A short clip of the latter song was on Youtube years ago. They seemed very happy, very energic on the show I remember.

[detmotownguy]

Dang it Marv I don’t remember that show. What channel was it on? The High Energy album should have charter much higher. Quite a few gems on it. I didn’t see it in any record store except one in Livonia. They had a whole display outside the store with all the new Motown releases.

[marv2]

What I liked most is that they were freer on stage and not the old stiff, standing behind microphones singing and delivering hokey stage patter in between songs.

[detmotownguy]

Marv do you know wht the seating capacity was at that time? Thanks!

[marv2]

Dang it Marv I don’t remember that show. What channel was it on? The High Energy album should have charter much higher. Quite a few gems on it. I didn’t see it in any record store except one in Livonia. They had a whole display outside the store with all the new Motown releases.

It was on WGPR Channel 62. The Scene ran every day, Mon. -Fri at 6:00 pm. It ran from October 1975 - 1987. Here is a clip from 1976:

[marv2]

Marv do you know wht the seating capacity was at that time? Thanks!

Not at all. I was in high school then and was not even thinking about adult nightclubs yet LOL! Seriously, there may info. on the seating capacity on the web somewhere.

[detmotownguy]

Not at all. I was in high school then and was not even thinking about adult nightclubs yet LOL! Seriously, there may info. on the seating capacity on the web somewhere.

Looks like the maximum is 1200. I would assume being in Detroit, it was sold out.

[marv2]

Looks like the maximum is 1200. I would assume being in Detroit, it was sold out.

Well they ran for about a week. I am pretty sure they sold out.

[captainjames]

I remember being at one of these shows and it as my first time seeing Susaye perform with the group. We got our tickets the day of the show so I don't think it was sold out. MSS sounded good but I have said it several times before that watching them you got the feeling something was missing.

[Ollie9]

I remember being at one of these shows and it as my first time seeing Susaye perform with the group. We got our tickets the day of the show so I don't think it was sold out. MSS sounded good but I have said it several times before that watching them you got the feeling something was missing.

The first official Supreme I ever saw perform live was Mary & The Supremes at the London Palladium in 78. This of course was not really the Supremes at all.
What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

[REDHOT]

I went to 2 shows,they were sold out,it was the disco music was the thing, at that time,so the Medley had a disco feel,The Supremes Mary Scherrie and Susaye were soooo good,i remember they got a standing ovation each night,the harmony blend was tight,all 3 ladies were INCREDIBLE.

[milven]

The first official Supreme I ever saw perform live was Mary & The Supremes at the London Palladium in 78. This of course was not really the Supremes at all.
What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

This was Mary's "solo" show, but she kept the Supremes' name in the billing and sang with the two Karens.

There is another older thread here about her performance at the Palladium in 1978

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...Palladium-1978

[captainjames]

The first official Supreme I ever saw perform live was Mary & The Supremes at the London Palladium in 78. This of course was not really the Supremes at all.
What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

As a group the Supremes always complimented each other on stage. MSS vocally were in top form but as a group they became three lead singers on stage. So in my eyes on stage they were no longer the Supremes they were MSS. It was hard to watch but they were great to listen to.

[sup_fan]

agreed - in the studio, it was an excellent lineup. but mary and management kept the same old tired Vegas-style show. Even when they did an overhaul, it was still Vegas. just newer content like the Dream Genie sequence.

They needed to come up with a totally new stage show format. And you're right. the staging and vocals needed to be completely redone too. There was so much of everyone singing lead - trading so many lines between the girls during songs, too much nonstop 3-part harmony. and far too much ad libbing and going off

[captainjames]

agreed - in the studio, it was an excellent lineup. but mary and management kept the same old tired Vegas-style show. Even when they did an overhaul, it was still Vegas. just newer content like the Dream Genie sequence.

They needed to come up with a totally new stage show format. And you're right. the staging and vocals needed to be completely redone too. There was so much of everyone singing lead - trading so many lines between the girls during songs, too much nonstop 3-part harmony. and far too much ad libbing and going off

sup_fan, you are a smart fan !!!!!!
anyone looking could see it or had to be blind.

[sup_fan]

sup_fan, you are a smart fan !!!!!!
anyone looking could see it or had to be blind.

hehe

it's a shame that mary and pedro were attempting to simply use the supremes at this point as her launching pad to a pop solo career. had they reassessed that and tried to really form the group as a "true group" things could have been so much better

[marv2]

hehe

it's a shame that mary and pedro were attempting to simply use the supremes at this point as her launching pad to a pop solo career. had they reassessed that and tried to really form the group as a "true group" things could have been so much better

I wonder where and who they got that idea from............?

[marv2]

agreed - in the studio, it was an excellent lineup. but mary and management kept the same old tired Vegas-style show. Even when they did an overhaul, it was still Vegas. just newer content like the Dream Genie sequence.

They needed to come up with a totally new stage show format. And you're right. the staging and vocals needed to be completely redone too. There was so much of everyone singing lead - trading so many lines between the girls during songs, too much nonstop 3-part harmony. and far too much ad libbing and going off

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd never go see an artist that hasn't changed their show or presentation of it in like 30 years. What would be the point?

[detmotownguy]

As a group the Supremes always complimented each other on stage. MSS vocally were in top form but as a group they became three lead singers on stage. So in my eyes on stage they were no longer the Supremes they were MSS. It was hard to watch but they were great to listen to.

I understand the point of no longer being the Sups almost to the point of wishing they'd skip the 60's hits. I saw Mary do the symphony show a while back and I thought it would not bother me if she never sang Baby Love again! But I assume that fans were expecting 60's at the Roostertail event. Mary has said several times there is value in the name. MSS is my fav grouping. Anytime I lent out their last 2 albums they always got rave reviews. I wish they would have made the break from Motown....... sorry for the disjointed post as I am super sick atm.

[marv2]

I understand the point of no longer being the Sups almost to the point of wishing they'd skip the 60's hits. I saw Mary do the symphony show a while back and I thought it would not bother me if she never sang Baby Love again! But I assume that fans were expecting 60's at the Roostertail event. Mary has said several times there is value in the name. MSS is my fav grouping. Anytime I lent out their last 2 albums they always got rave reviews. I wish they would have made the break from Motown....... sorry for the disjointed post as I am super sick atm.

Oh no! Feel better soon DET.

[detmotownguy]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd never go see an artist that hasn't changed their show or presentation of it in like 30 years. What would be the point?

I wonder if the three ladies sat down and developed an act that satisfied their own needs, interests and ideas would have led to a more cohesive live performance. As Mary wrote all three were unhappy. Did they ever start to record a 3rd album?

[RanRan79]

What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

[RanRan79]

I wonder where and who they got that idea from............?

You know Mary isn't allowed to do what Diana can do. Stop it.

But honestly I'm still searching for these albums and concerts where it was all Mary all of the time. To the general public Scherrie was the lead singer, not Mary. It was Scherrie's leads on most of those singles.

[monicarivers]

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

I agree completely which is why I have a hard time watching any live performances with this lineup ALTHOUGH, on record, they are my second favorite. The recorded performances at least let for a divvying up of lead vocal responsibilities.

[RanRan79]

I wonder if the three ladies sat down and developed an act that satisfied their own needs, interests and ideas would have led to a more cohesive live performance. As Mary wrote all three were unhappy. Did they ever start to record a 3rd album?

I doubt any work was cut for an album after MSS. I think they may have gone into promoting that last album with at least a halfway understanding that this was probably it. Your suggestion is exactly what most groups get wrong. Imagine if Flo, Diana and Mary had sat down and spoken honestly about what they wanted and then forced- at least as much as they could considering the misogynistic relationship they were in with Gordy and some of the other male execs- these desires into some form of the Supremes where each girl was happy? So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.

Fast forward to MSS, and this would've been another great time to explore this scenario. The problem is that Pedro was hovering and he was never going to allow Scherrie and Susaye the input that their talents deserved. Pedro's concern was Mary, IMO not because he believed in her in a similar way as Gordy believed in Diana, but Mary was Pedro's meal ticket, either as a Supreme or as a solo, he was going to do what he thought needed to be done to secure her bag either way, since her bag was his bag.

Also by now Mary certainly saw the group as her group, and rightfully so. She was an original, the others were replacements. Mary Wilson is Queen Supreme after all. She probably was very interested at elevating her spot and saw the elevations of the others as threatening. Not that I think Mary was mean spirted, but I do think she had an attitude of the Supremes are her group and Scherrie and Susaye just need to show up and sing. Mary and Pedro will handle the rest. And on a certain level I understand that. The problem is that this attitude never works. It's essentially the same attitude that Diana and Gordy had about Flo and Mary: show up and sing and nobody gets hurt. Except it was hurtful that Flo and Mary's talents and aspirations weren't being considered, only Diana's. Which was worse since Flo and Mary were as original as Diana was. One would think Mary might have considered that with MSS but apparently not. Of course even if she had been interested in that would Pedro have let that go on? Nope.

[marv2]

You know Mary isn't allowed to do what Diana can do. Stop it.

But honestly I'm still searching for these albums and concerts where it was all Mary all of the time. To the general public Scherrie was the lead singer, not Mary. It was Scherrie's leads on most of those singles.

Oh I forgot! God forbid...........<G>.

[sup_fan]

I wonder if the three ladies sat down and developed an act that satisfied their own needs, interests and ideas would have led to a more cohesive live performance. As Mary wrote all three were unhappy. Did they ever start to record a 3rd album?

i've not heard of any additional recording sessions beyond those from the MS&S lp but i don't know. I have some old fan club newsletters from the time and had the typical interviews with the girls talking about plans and all. Susaye mentions writing and producing for the group but again, who knows. it doesn't seem like there are any unreleased tracks from MS&S although there were some alt versions. at least no completed unreleased tracks. and Mary made the decision to go solo by Dec 76 - the lp was released in October. so not a lot of time to be back in the studios.

I've also heard fan rumors that the Hollands were having some problems with the motown people again. anyone else know of this?

[sup_fan]

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

totally agree. another thing is that sometimes there's too much of a good thing. like trading off lines in a song, 3-part harmony, all the different leads. Each of these ideas has merit especially given the vocal talents of MSS. But to have the entire show basically as non-stop 3 part harmony and every song bounces the lead around verse by verse to each girl, etc and you get a hot mess. by doing these elements too much you degrade the value of each. There are times when their 3 part live harmonies were gorgeous and others where they're dancing so much and racing all over the stage so much that they're breathless and then out of tune.

I like the dance routine for Let Yourself Go in the HE video clips. but it's an intricate routine. for a video or when they're lip syncing, fine. but when they're singing live they should have chopped the routine to mostly standing there and singing.

Also someone needed to regular the ad libbing and singing off of the main parts because, again, a little goes a long way.

[sup_fan]

I doubt any work was cut for an album after MSS. I think they may have gone into promoting that last album with at least a halfway understanding that this was probably it. Your suggestion is exactly what most groups get wrong. Imagine if Flo, Diana and Mary had sat down and spoken honestly about what they wanted and then forced- at least as much as they could considering the misogynistic relationship they were in with Gordy and some of the other male execs- these desires into some form of the Supremes where each girl was happy? So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.

Fast forward to MSS, and this would've been another great time to explore this scenario. The problem is that Pedro was hovering and he was never going to allow Scherrie and Susaye the input that their talents deserved. Pedro's concern was Mary, IMO not because he believed in her in a similar way as Gordy believed in Diana, but Mary was Pedro's meal ticket, either as a Supreme or as a solo, he was going to do what he thought needed to be done to secure her bag either way, since her bag was his bag.

Also by now Mary certainly saw the group as her group, and rightfully so. She was an original, the others were replacements. Mary Wilson is Queen Supreme after all. She probably was very interested at elevating her spot and saw the elevations of the others as threatening. Not that I think Mary was mean spirted, but I do think she had an attitude of the Supremes are her group and Scherrie and Susaye just need to show up and sing. Mary and Pedro will handle the rest. And on a certain level I understand that. The problem is that this attitude never works. It's essentially the same attitude that Diana and Gordy had about Flo and Mary: show up and sing and nobody gets hurt. Except it was hurtful that Flo and Mary's talents and aspirations weren't being considered, only Diana's. Which was worse since Flo and Mary were as original as Diana was. One would think Mary might have considered that with MSS but apparently not. Of course even if she had been interested in that would Pedro have let that go on? Nope.

again Ran, great post. completely agree

my 2 cents to add is that IMO Mary worked best [[if we're talking about the pop genre) as a member of a group. I love that she expanded her role within the supremes unit. But i think it was unwise to try and launch herself as a pop solo superstar. A good friend of my is dean at a top conservatory and she says one of her least favorite activities is having to tell a student that it will be a struggle for them to make a career out of being a concert solo pianist or whatever they play. They might be an excellent player but to tour the world as a soloist and play the top concertos with major orchestras isn't going to happen. it's a hard but unfortunately necessary discussion that has to occur. I feel that with the idea of Mary as a pop singer.

within the supremes she was firmly established as a pop group member and worked beautifully there. had she wanted to go into other areas like jazz or intimate club work, i think she could have been very successful too. but pop solo wasn't her forte. she should have stayed with the supremes and worked to make the group a viable ongoing institution

[marv2]

totally agree. another thing is that sometimes there's too much of a good thing. like trading off lines in a song, 3-part harmony, all the different leads. Each of these ideas has merit especially given the vocal talents of MSS. But to have the entire show basically as non-stop 3 part harmony and every song bounces the lead around verse by verse to each girl, etc and you get a hot mess. by doing these elements too much you degrade the value of each. There are times when their 3 part live harmonies were gorgeous and others where they're dancing so much and racing all over the stage so much that they're breathless and then out of tune.

I like the dance routine for Let Yourself Go in the HE video clips. but it's an intricate routine. for a video or when they're lip syncing, fine. but when they're singing live they should have chopped the routine to mostly standing there and singing.

Also someone needed to regular the ad libbing and singing off of the main parts because, again, a little goes a long way.

I thought Mary, Scherrie and Susaye were GREAT! On record and on stage. I do not recall being unhappy with them at all back in 1976-77. I was a bit sad when Mary decided to leave,but it was ok.

[monicarivers]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd never go see an artist that hasn't changed their show or presentation of it in like 30 years. What would be the point?

Gee marv/luke/det...maybe to see one of the greatest entertainers of all time [[per the opinion of everyone who doesn’t live on planet marv/mary. Shame the European tour is canceled due to Covid. She sold out huge venues and more dates had to me added. Once again, you “three” are living in an alternate reality. At lease she allows photographs these days and isn’t kicking people out. Hehehehehe! LOL!

[detmotownguy]

Oh no! Feel better soon DET.

Oh yes grrrr. Going to hospital tomorrow. Hopefully this cool thread keeps going to help me pass the time.

[marv2]

Oh yes grrrr. Going to hospital tomorrow. Hopefully this cool thread keeps going to help me pass the time.

We'll keep it going. You just go and take care of yourself, ok?

[detmotownguy]

[QUOTE=RanRan79;573906] “So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.”
Well Berry said that he washed his hands of the whole goddamned group. Somewhere I read that the shelf life of a group with original members is typically abt 10 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. Could they have plucked Flo out of the group and carved a solo career for her and incorporated her comedic talents? Maybe she could have had a career that was a bit less stressful. Mary até it up and loved every minute of it. She would have been a great jazz singer. I don’t mind Mary singing pop tunes. Diana did not posses the group mentality, so yeah 1970 disband the whole damn group. But Motown focused pretty on Diana’s career, so I don’t think they would have spent the time on solos careers for another 2 females artists. Ran are you suggesting that the remaining Sups would have looked to other labels?

[detmotownguy]

i've not heard of any additional recording sessions beyond those from the MS&S lp but i don't know. I have some old fan club newsletters from the time and had the typical interviews with the girls talking about plans and all. Susaye mentions writing and producing for the group but again, who knows. it doesn't seem like there are any unreleased tracks from MS&S although there were some alt versions. at least no completed unreleased tracks. and Mary made the decision to go solo by Dec 76 - the lp was released in October. so not a lot of time to be back in the studios.

I've also heard fan rumors that the Hollands were having some problems with the motown people again. anyone else know of this?

Good point. Your explanation of the timing answers that question! I can’t believe 45 years later this stuff is still being discussed lol!

[marv2]

[QUOTE=detmotownguy;574009]

“So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.”
Well Berry said that he washed his hands of the whole goddamned group. Somewhere I read that the shelf life of a group with original members is typically abt 10 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. Could they have plucked Flo out of the group and carved a solo career for her and incorporated her comedic talents? Maybe she could have had a career that was a bit less stressful. Mary até it up and loved every minute of it. She would have been a great jazz singer. I don’t mind Mary singing pop tunes. Diana did not posses the group mentality, so yeah 1970 disband the whole damn group. But Motown focused pretty on Diana’s career, so I don’t think they would have spent the time on solos careers for another 2 females artists. Ran are you suggesting that the remaining Sups would have looked to other labels?

All of that could have happened. It is clear now that more of the truth has seeped out over the years that Florence Ballard loved singing and even tried to pursue a solo career outside of Motown. It is also true that Berry Gordy turned those women against one another and most of it was done intentionally!

[marv2]

Good point. Your explanation of the timing answers that question! I can’t believe 45 years later this stuff is still being discussed lol!

Me too. I was just enjoying the video and wanted others to see it. I do not work in the entertainment business, so I feel strange detailing what professional entertainers should have done [[especially ones as world-famous as the Supremes). As a fan, it is ok to sometimes wish certain things had happened, but to give instructions on what should have changed to fit some type of end 45 years ago is just strange as Hell to me LOL!

[sup_fan]

Good point. Your explanation of the timing answers that question! I can’t believe 45 years later this stuff is still being discussed lol!

well cuz it's fun! lolol

plus new things are being unearthed by Andy and team, learning more about what was happening behind the scenes. Plus no one person knows it all. it's great to share thoughts, memories and ideas. learn new things. and sometimes based on fan comments and discussions, i've changed my mind about something

[RanRan79]

again Ran, great post. completely agree

my 2 cents to add is that IMO Mary worked best [[if we're talking about the pop genre) as a member of a group. I love that she expanded her role within the supremes unit. But i think it was unwise to try and launch herself as a pop solo superstar. A good friend of my is dean at a top conservatory and she says one of her least favorite activities is having to tell a student that it will be a struggle for them to make a career out of being a concert solo pianist or whatever they play. They might be an excellent player but to tour the world as a soloist and play the top concertos with major orchestras isn't going to happen. it's a hard but unfortunately necessary discussion that has to occur. I feel that with the idea of Mary as a pop singer.

within the supremes she was firmly established as a pop group member and worked beautifully there. had she wanted to go into other areas like jazz or intimate club work, i think she could have been very successful too. but pop solo wasn't her forte. she should have stayed with the supremes and worked to make the group a viable ongoing institution

Of course it's all subjective. I have to imagine that with something like orchestra, the perimeters of "talent enough to make it" are much more rigid than pop music. I think of people like Anita Baker who was told she couldn't sing and she damn sho wasn't gonna make it. Look at her now. One of the best to ever do it, IMO. And I bet the criticism she got early on was because she doesn't have a conventional voice. Is it pop? Is it jazz? Is it gospel? What's going on with this lady? Lol Whatever it was, someone was able to hook up onto a formula that worked for her and the rest is history.

Mary has always had a gorgeous tone to her voice. What she lacked was what I call a melodic voice. She didn't have the ability to float effortlessly over a melody, if that makes any sense. I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly. Anyway, it's that thing that I think makes banking on Mary as a pop success tremendously risky. However, the GD sessions to me prove that Mary could've been a pop star. Would she have ever been an arena star? Nope, not IMO. But she definitely could've hooked up with producers who could tailor material for her and give her the opportunity for occasional hits, a couple top ten/twenty selling albums. She could've done stuff like Anita Baker and Phyllis Hyman were doing [[as the 80s progressed). Dionne's mid 80s stuff would've worked for Mary also. And I still say Mary might have gotten a #1 if Brenda Russell had given "Piano In the Dark" to Mary instead, especially after Dreamgirl.

There's also a reason most groups cease to exist. Of course problems crop up between members, and issues with the business can suck the life out of a lot of folks. But particularly when people have been in groups since they were a kid, there comes a point where you have to go for yours. Mary had been singing with other women since she was 13 or so years old. No disrespect to our female forum members, but I know for a fact women get tired of being around other women all the damn time. And Mary had been through it with this group. First Barbara decides that marriage and family is more important than the Supremes and leaves. Then Flo and Gordy and then Flo and Diana start having issues that eventually result in Flo leaving. Diana takes the term "big headed" to a whole new level and then she leaves. Jean comes in and is apparently not the warmest person and also has a gripe to pick about almost everything. Cindy's been a rock but now she's out. Lynda's in, but now she and Jean are ganging up on Mary. Now they are both out. Cindy comes back and Scherrie comes in and everything seems to be right again except Scherrie got an attitude because Mary's leads are increasing and Cindy is starting to gripe too. Now Cindy's gone and Susaye is in and the fear is that once again Mary's gonna get jumped by replacements. At some point it makes sense for Mary to say "I'm sick of dealing with Supremes. Time to make it on my own." And I don't fault her one bit for that.

What I do fault her on is her horrible handling of her solo career. She seems to have never found or been interested in finding quality management to oversee her.

[RanRan79]

[QUOTE=detmotownguy;574009]

“So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.”
Well Berry said that he washed his hands of the whole goddamned group. Somewhere I read that the shelf life of a group with original members is typically abt 10 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. Could they have plucked Flo out of the group and carved a solo career for her and incorporated her comedic talents? Maybe she could have had a career that was a bit less stressful. Mary até it up and loved every minute of it. She would have been a great jazz singer. I don’t mind Mary singing pop tunes. Diana did not posses the group mentality, so yeah 1970 disband the whole damn group. But Motown focused pretty on Diana’s career, so I don’t think they would have spent the time on solos careers for another 2 females artists. Ran are you suggesting that the remaining Sups would have looked to other labels?

No, I'm saying around early 1966, Flo, Diana and Mary should have had a conversation with each other about what it is they need out of this group. I imagine both Flo and Mary would want more leads on albums and shows. Flo might even suggest that if a particular single sounded like it was more right for Flo than Diana, Flo should get a turn, just like in the early days. Diana might explain that someday she wants to be on her own. She wants to do movies and make million selling albums. Gordy has her on a course to eventually accomplish this, but they need this ship to move smoothly forward. The girls then take their demands to Gordy. United they stand, divided they fall. Believe it or not, they had more power than anyone thinks and could have used it. The girls may have needed to enlist the help of Gordy's sisters, who were apparently the only women who had any control over him. But if done right we might be having an entirely different discussion about the Supremes than we are currently having.

So with this new plan in place: On stage the Supremes really are three personalities with three individual talents to go along with it. [[If you really think about it, for the three of them, there is something there for everybody.) That gets spotlighted in more than just "People". Flo sings some songs. Mary sings some songs. Diana does a lot of MC'ing. Flo does a lot of comedy. The albums are even better, with songs suited to each lady's talent help make the albums even more appealing because there's something there for everyone to get into. The name never changes to DRATS. There's no shakeup in the lineup. No rumors of infighting. And then in January 1970 they leave the group to embark on their own solo careers. That means Gordy signs them all to solo contracts. He probably will focus his own attention on Diana, but someone else gets Flo, somebody else gets Mary. Maybe Mary's first album is produced by Smokey. Maybe Flo's is produced by Johnny Bristol. Maybe Mary starts to do some spokesmodeling for various products. Flo even gets into movies and television. The Supremes would be like the goose that laid three golden eggs for Motown. But the fact that the girls never united and turned course...

[sup_fan]

but look at to FLOs. Scherrie has been working with them since 89 or so. But she also does her own side projects. which is wonderful. had the Supremes stayed together, there's no reason they couldn't have also done some individual activities.

had another thought about the group's struggles in the 70s

Diana really transformed not only her sound and image but public perception too. At first she was, frankly, just like DRATS but by herself on stage. But then she took on a Hollywood personality. then she was a mother. Then a mature "woman of the 80s"

obviously i'm making some pretty broad sweeps here but i think you get the picture

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

[marv2]

but look at to FLOs. Scherrie has been working with them since 89 or so. But she also does her own side projects. which is wonderful. had the Supremes stayed together, there's no reason they couldn't have also done some individual activities.

had another thought about the group's struggles in the 70s

Diana really transformed not only her sound and image but public perception too. At first she was, frankly, just like DRATS but by herself on stage. But then she took on a Hollywood personality. then she was a mother. Then a mature "woman of the 80s"

obviously i'm making some pretty broad sweeps here but i think you get the picture

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

Mary has helped to get laws passed. She has been a U.S. Cultural Ambassador around the world. So I cannot say in truth that she never progressed beyond "simply smiling in sequins" because that would be a fat ass lie!

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=RanRan79;574072]

No, I'm saying around early 1966, Flo, Diana and Mary should have had a conversation with each other about what it is they need out of this group. I imagine both Flo and Mary would want more leads on albums and shows. Flo might even suggest that if a particular single sounded like it was more right for Flo than Diana, Flo should get a turn, just like in the early days. Diana might explain that someday she wants to be on her own. She wants to do movies and make million selling albums. Gordy has her on a course to eventually accomplish this, but they need this ship to move smoothly forward. The girls then take their demands to Gordy. United they stand, divided they fall. Believe it or not, they had more power than anyone thinks and could have used it. The girls may have needed to enlist the help of Gordy's sisters, who were apparently the only women who had any control over him. But if done right we might be having an entirely different discussion about the Supremes than we are currently having.

So with this new plan in place: On stage the Supremes really are three personalities with three individual talents to go along with it. [[If you really think about it, for the three of them, there is something there for everybody.) That gets spotlighted in more than just "People". Flo sings some songs. Mary sings some songs. Diana does a lot of MC'ing. Flo does a lot of comedy. The albums are even better, with songs suited to each lady's talent help make the albums even more appealing because there's something there for everyone to get into. The name never changes to DRATS. There's no shakeup in the lineup. No rumors of infighting. And then in January 1970 they leave the group to embark on their own solo careers. That means Gordy signs them all to solo contracts. He probably will focus his own attention on Diana, but someone else gets Flo, somebody else gets Mary. Maybe Mary's first album is produced by Smokey. Maybe Flo's is produced by Johnny Bristol. Maybe Mary starts to do some spokesmodeling for various products. Flo even gets into movies and television. The Supremes would be like the goose that laid three golden eggs for Motown. But the fact that the girls never united and turned course...

i'm not read nearly as much about the history of Destiny's Child [[and i know some people on here hate them and B) but what you're describing is similar to what Randy points out in his B bio. Matthew Knowles DID have the foresight to allow each member some ability to develop their own skills and feel valued, while still never taking the eye off of B. after the earlier messes, one it was B, Kelly and Michelle, the group didn't really have the internal strife like the Supremes.

I completely agree that Berry was beyond tunnel-vision when it came to Diana. What's interesting is the the company understood the value of differentiation becuase they had zillions of sub-labels. the Motown label was the primary "home" label but they created others so that they could ensure sales and airplay coverage. if everything was Motown then there's be less. but they made Soul specifically to go into a harder r&b sound. plus all the others.

Berry was particular about the people he worked heavily with. he's credited Diana because she had the same unerring drive as he did. it seems that if people didn't have that matched level, he quickly grew disinterested. Also if they had any problems along the way, he seems to wipe his hands of them. I'm making the guess here but i think that's partially why he bailed on Martha. once she got into drugs and had her own struggles, he wasn't going to invest in her. Wanda never had a prayer either.

But they very well could [[and should) have groomed various female stars in different ways.

[Ollie9]

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

To view Mary as someone who has never evolved beyond standing in the footlights looking pretty in sequins isi extremely unfair. She may not be as high profile as Diana, but she has worked very in trying to make the world a better place as well as being a consummate performer, author, actress and humanitarian.