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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodward View Post
    Highly doubtful that you will find a HOB set, in fact, you are being presented with more information on the secret label than anyone has ever seen before.
    I have Dave Rimmers Detroit discography book; as well as the Motown Encyclopedia and Carmen or the HOB label is completely absent from it. Thank you Robb for the information that you have given to us.
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    Some years ago, our own, Ron Murphy, was working on getting a CD series on all Mrs. Murphy's labels together. There was some delay in finding the proper rights owner, and then he got sick, and unfortunately he died. And none of us, who were involved had the time to pursue that project. I have no idea who the rights owners are, as Ron was handling that alone.

    Unfortunately, I don't have the time now, or the ability to spend time in The Detroit Area; and, indeed, I'm wondering when or even IF I'll even be able to return home, or if I'll risk sitting in an airport waiting room or in the confined space of an airplane ever again, or ever schedule another seminar. There were a couple other people on this forum interested in this project, including Ralph. They were all Detroiters. But I don't remember if they all still lived in Southeastern Michigan, and I think they were all as old as I am. So, I don't know if any of them would have any interest in pursuing that project now. But, with The current Corona Virus situation, it's not a good time to try to get things moving in that direction.

    By the way, I have about 10 more House of Beauty Gospel records from that label's pre-Scepter ownership period I could have scanned on this thread, but I didn't want to clutter it up with way too many graphics. It's already eating up too much of the available band width.

    We had so many threads like this on the old SDF that were lost when Lowell had to change platforms. Ralph had put them all in a "Classic Threads" section of The SDF Archives. But I can't find it. Remember, we had "Pre-Motown Gordy Productions", "Off-Motown Detroit Soul Labels", "New York Jobete Music Office Productions", "Los Angeles Jobete Music Office Productions", "Detroit Gospel", "'50s Detroit R&B", Individual label threads like "Thelma", "Ed Wingate labels[[Golden World/Ric Tic/Wingate)", "Fortune", "Solid Hitbound[[Revilot/Groovesville/Solid Hit)", "Correc-Tone", and many more similar style ongoing many months threads filled with label scans and discussion of their histories. Luckily, a lot of the latter were duplicated in Graham Finch's and others' Detroit label webisodes, still in existence on SDF.
    Last edited by robb_k; 04-14-2020 at 12:58 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterysinger View Post
    Given the number of "out of copyright" releases that came out a couple of years ago, I wonder whether there may have been a HOB set. Will have to have a look.
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    Definitely let us know if you find anything. I'll be very curious to know that, and possibly approach the producer to see if I can help with any additional release related to that project. I would be willing to provide 45s for re-mastering for any whose master tapes can't be found, as well as providing label scans, and writing CD booklet artist/producer bios and record and label historical information. Maybe Ace/Kent would be interested. I'm actually surprised they haven't done one yet, as it would be right up their alley. But, maybe that means they already looked into it, but no one can locate the rights owners, and the master tapes are all lost?
    Last edited by robb_k; 04-14-2020 at 03:45 PM.

  3. #53
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    I just remembered another unreleased recording gem for which no documentation could be found that the singers were currently under contract with Motown as recording artists at the time the recording was made: The Doo-Wop style song, "All I Have Left Are Memories" from late 1963, by Sammy Turner, backed by The Serenaders [[all of whom were eventually signed to artist contracts with Motown for their releases on Motown and V.I.P., but because no documentation exists to confirm that they were signed before those proof of song ownership acetates were made, the owners of Motown's rights can't use them commercially. That is unfortunate, as I am convinced that these artists WERE under contract at that time, and the recordings are so great. Luckily, "Tears, Nobody, and a Smile" by The Serenaders has been released on CD [[maybe by the current holders of George Kerr's or Sidney Barnes', or both's rights), so, I wonder why the Sammy Turner wasn't [[as it was also a Kerr-Barnes production).
    Here's "Tears":
    Last edited by robb_k; 04-14-2020 at 03:31 PM.

  4. #54
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    Robb, thanks for posting this really nice song. I really love If Your Heart Says Yes, the first VIP 45 release #25002. It's a shame the Serenaders were not more successful in life.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by robb_k View Post
    Attachment 17038
    I didn't have much of a background in making music, other than learning to play tunes on the piano by ear, and trying to master the harmonica, but that didn't go far. I did eventually learn to read music. I started loving music at a young age, about 3. My parents, especially my father, was a big Jazz and Blues fan. and I grew up in the late '40s and '50s playing his 78 RPM records [[big city '30s and '40s Jazz, City Blues, and Jazz ballads, Boogie Woogie, and Jump Blues. We used to visit family in Chicago twice a year on long vacations, where I heard the beginnings of R&B and greasy Doo Wop ballads. My Uncle had a grocery store on The South Side, and we used to hang out with him there.

    So, in 1953, I started asking my parents for records for my birthday and Hannukah [[Flamingos, Moonglows, Spaniels, Dells, Drifters, Platters, Orioles, Five Echoes, Five Chances, El Dorados, Dominoes, etc.). When I was eight, I started buying my own records[[78s), mainly from the 2 for a Dollar, 3 for a Dollar and 20 cent bargain bins in the South side record shops, and what R&B records crossed over into Pop, and would be available at home in the Downtown Winnipeg record shops. I also checked the charity thrift shops after going to one with my parents, and discovering that they had loads of old used records. After 45s were more prevalent I was able to amass tonnes of R&B, Blues, Jazz and Gospel records. We moved to Chicago in 1959, in South Chicago, just near the edge of The South Side; and my father opened a grocery store deep inside that district. I worked there, and went crazy scouring the record shops, thrift shops. junk stores and furniture stores, and record distributors' warehouses. I amassed many thousands of 45s fairly quickly. In addition to loving the 1952-54 greasy R&B ballads best, my other favourite music became the 1959-64 Detroit and Chicago R&B transition to Soul music. I loved early Motown and related Detroit recordings so much, that when I first had access to a car, and then my own car from 1963-1966, I used to drive to Detroit 2 Saturdays a month, to spend all day hitting the good record shops, thrift stores, junk stores and the like for obscure Detroit records and Motown cut-outs that might never get to Chicago. I ended up getting hundreds of rare Detroit and Chicago '60s records, grabbing every one I could get my hands on. I became an expert on Soul record releases from those 2 cities.

    I moved to L.A. in Fall 1965 to attend UCLA. My parents followed, and my father bought a grocery store in The Crenshaw Area of Southwest L.A. [[the more affluent portion of L.A.'s Ghetto). I worked in his store on weekends and evenings. After Motown moved to L.A. in 1972, I started meeting people there, and made several friends. I started working with them in 1974, being hired to work on an ambitious project to release previously unreleased recordings on an LP series. For the first several years, it was only loosely planned. We had to look through The Motown Vaults, going through the tapes and records [[vinyl demos and acetates), and listening to everything we hadn't heard, and categorize it by style, and grade it for potential release [[or not). That went on from 1974-1978. We prepared lists for all 10 of the first group of LPs. The release was ready to start in 1979.

    Unfortunately, Motown put no marketing behind the project, and only started releasing the LPs one at a time, and releasing it on their budget label, Natural Resources. With no marketing, nobody knew about it, so it sat in the bins not selling. Because it didn't sell at all, the higher-ups in the company decided to jettison the "From The Vaults" series project. So, our 6 years of hard work might have come for naught. But, at least, after project producer, Tom DePierro left to start his own Soul record label, Airwave Records, in 1980, and I joined him as a partner, two more Vault-based previously unreleased recordings LPs were released in 1981 and 1982, and then, in 1984, many of the remaining unused cuts we had planned to be in our 10-LP series, were used in Motown's 25th Anniversary LP series. So, our work wasn't in vain.

    I worked with Airwave from 1980-85, marketing in Europe, trying to write songs, learning to use a mixing machine and providing a little input into the premixing on a few recording sessions, but mostly doing administrative work, and in-house accounting.

    For several years, our offices in The Hollywood & Vine Building were between those of Mickey Stevenson [[after he had left MGM, shut down Venture and people Records and became an independent producer), and Bunky Sheppard, when he was running his own new labels out of L.A. I learned a lot from both of them. I had also talked to some people while at Motown about the earlier days in Detroit, as well as asking old-time Detroiters who had had connections to that City's music industry during the 1960s when I visited Detroit back in those days.

    Since then, my only contact with the music industry has been acting as an advisor on Oldies CD projects for Ace and Kent Records, especially those related to '60s and '50s Chicago and Detroit labels, providing rare records for re-mastering when master tapes are unavailable, providing record label scans, and editing and providing consulting on CD booklets' articles about the labels and artists.

    I also learned a lot about labels, producers, arrangers, session players, and artists, and companies and their owners from reading a lot of articles about them and talking to people in the business, researching articles in recording industry journals, as well as reading posts here on SDF, back from the start in 2001 until about 2010, when we still had a lot of posters who had been working in the music industry in Detroit during the 1960s. I have a photographic memory, and all that information I've picked up since reading my first record label in 1950 until now is still stored in my brain, even if some of it is more difficult to bring to my attention now, 70 years later!
    Thanks for sharing your backstory. Seems like you were able to turn your passion into a living. Did you meet any of the Motown artists from the 60's or early 70's?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    Thanks for sharing your backstory. Seems like you were able to turn your passion into a living. Did you meet any of the Motown artists from the 60's or early 70's?
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    I met Mary Wells. Our Airwave Records talked with her about recording for us [[although, unfortunately, that never happened). Stevie Wonder recorded for us [[not singing, but he played harmonica on one of Freddie Gorman's recordings. I met Bob Kayli [[Robert Gordy), head of Jobete Music. I met Brenda Holloway, and Mary Love. I met Gloria Jones [[who was a good friend of one of our fellow owners of Airwave Records), Mickey Stevenson [[of The Lovetones/Love-Tones, and Mello-Dees), Freddie Gorman, who recorded for us. I met Don Davis [[who was an ad-hoc session guitarist and songwriter at Tamla in their first 3 years. We also recorded Mel Carter [[not a Motown artist, of course). I also met Dee Dee Warwick, who was also a good friend of our same partner. I've met Bunky Sheppard, and a lot of other Chicago artists and producers including Bo Diddley, Richard Pegue, and several others. I met some other Motowners in the office building, just saying hello. I can't remember all of them. It doesn't matter because that amounted to nothing that matters, any more than meeting and greeting anyone else. Iris Gordy was head of our projects. But, we've had lots of people on this website who worked at Motown in Detroit during the '60s, and met, and worked with all the big singing stars. Ralph Terrana for one. Mike McLean, Bob Ohlsson, Dennis Coffey, Bob Babbit, Clay MacMurray. They could still, or could have [[while they were still around) told us some interesting stories.

  7. #57
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    Blimey there's so much good stuff going on here it's hard to keep up. So many names for whom I recognise a Motown connection but obviously have a much wider history and recording career - it is fascinating.

    Sammy Turner seems to have been a prolific recorder of covers of well known songs. He also has at least one record produced by Phil Spector which is really good. He didn't have much on Motown but plenty of other recordings - Marginal Records [[Belgian Bootlegs) produced a CD in 1995 "The Complete Story" plus there's a CD of out of copyright stuff on the Jasmine label.

    Herman Griffin keeps cropping up what with the Motown and HOB material plus singles like "Mr Heartbreak"/"Never Trust Your Girl Friend" on Double L. Both written by Robert Bateman, the latter with William Stevenson and a Jobete BMI song. His "True Love"/"It's You" was released on Tamla but also on Columbia [[US). His Anna recordings are available via out of copyright releases. He did also record later for Ian Levine.

    Again not much Motown from The Serenaders [[in fact not much of anything), but one of their unreleased Motown tracks appeared on ACE records "Satisfaction Guaranteed" release this was "Say, Say, Baby".

    Obviously none of this is new to any of you guys but a voyage of discovery for the likes of me and a good way to listen to their tracks in more context.

  8. #58
    Robb
    One of the best threads ever!

    So much is owed to Jack Surrell and Carmen Murphy, it was Jack that convinced Carmen Murphy to set up the HOB record studio in her Detroit Hair Parlour shop basement, if that had not happened it makes you wonder as to what direction Mike Hanks & Berry Gordy might have gone!

    Heres the Link to Jack Surrell's HOB 45 record, arranged by "Mickey Stevenson & Johnny Allen"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHdBuE_S-88
    Last edited by Graham Jarvis; 06-13-2021 at 04:30 AM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by robb_k View Post
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    I just remembered another unreleased recording gem for which no documentation could be found that the singers were currently under contract with Motown as recording artists at the time the recording was made: The Doo-Wop style song, "All I Have Left Are Memories" from late 1963, by Sammy Turner, backed by The Serenaders [[all of whom were eventually signed to artist contracts with Motown for their releases on Motown and V.I.P., but because no documentation exists to confirm that they were signed before those proof of song ownership acetates were made, the owners of Motown's rights can't use them commercially. That is unfortunate, as I am convinced that these artists WERE under contract at that time, and the recordings are so great. Luckily, "Tears, Nobody, and a Smile" by The Serenaders has been released on CD [[maybe by the current holders of George Kerr's or Sidney Barnes', or both's rights), so, I wonder why the Sammy Turner wasn't [[as it was also a Kerr-Barnes production).
    Here's "Tears":
    ...the beautiful... All I Have Left Are Memories ...by Sammy Turner ...was officially released for the first time only last year ...on the 2CD set ...Cellarful Of Motown Volume 5...!

    https://www.discogs.com/Various-A-Ce...lease/15932544

    ...you can hear it here



    Grape

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    We used to have a LOT of threads like this[[actually much better) including old photos of artists and venues, radio play lists, and tonnes of scans of old, obscure records, regularly, back from our start in 2001 to about 2012 or so. Back then, former record masterer and producer, and label-owner, Ron Murphy, Ralph and even Russ [[a little bit), Dennis Coffey, Bob Ohlson, Bob Babbitt, Ray Monette, Mike McLean, Spyder Turner, Clay MacMurray, Lorraine Chandler, Frances Nero, Lyn Paul, StuBass, The Kount, etc., and so many more Motown Musicians, singers, and producers, and other people from Detroit's music industry, and several collectors of 1960s Detroit Soul Music all used to post here regularly. It's a tragic shame that almost all the "Classic Threads" [[like this-but much better because there were 10-15 knowledgeable old-timers posting on such threads rather than just one or two), were lost in 2010, when Lowell had to change the website's platform over to a new, more powerful platform.

    I did attempt to re-create a few of those Classical SDF historical/informational-type threads that were lost, and they are good, but only a shadow of what those original threads were, because a lot of the posters who had contributed to the original threads were no longer posting on SDF, or they didn't have the time, anymore, to scan and post hundreds of record label scans and photographs, and spend hours typing.

    But we DO still have a few of the replacement threads which are pretty good in their own right:

    1. Pre-Motown Berry Gordy-related record productions

    2. L.A. Jobete Music [[Motown) office productions and related released records

    3. New York Jobete Music [[Motown) office productions and related released records

    4. The "Chicago Sound"

    There are probably a few more.
    Last edited by robb_k; 06-13-2021 at 07:50 PM.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by grapevine View Post
    ...the beautiful... All I Have Left Are Memories ...by Sammy Turner ...was officially released for the first time only last year ...on the 2CD set ...Cellarful Of Motown Volume 5...!

    https://www.discogs.com/Various-A-Ce...lease/15932544

    ...you can hear it here



    Grape
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    Thanks Grape!!! I've been waiting to see this released by Motown since I discovered it in 1974. We had it slated for inclusion in one of the 2nd batch of "From The Vaults" LPs. After 47 years!!1 Finally!!! It happened while I'm still alive. Maybe there's hope for the Edward Earling cuts! I've found out recently [[within the last 5 years) that Edward was one of the lead singers [[the good one) of The Morrocco Muzik Makers. I still think that The Serenaders recorded "Tears, Nobody and A Smile for Motown WHILE under contract for Motown, and they should have been able to release it. But, at least it got released.

  12. #62
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    I move that we make a lot of new threads with the same spirit of inquiry as this one. So, you youngsters, fire away your questions about the old days before we Oldies pass on, and can no longer answer them.

    P.S. I would have liked to have seen Ralph comment on this.
    Last edited by robb_k; 06-13-2021 at 07:51 PM.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodward View Post
    Robb, thanks for posting this really nice song. I really love If Your Heart Says Yes, the first VIP 45 release #25002. It's a shame the Serenaders were not more successful in life.
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    Well, their artistic leader, co-lead singer, songwriter, and main producer, George Kerr, was very successful, and so was his main co-writer and co-producer, Sidney Barnes. And their other main lead singer Timothy [[Tiny Tim) Wilson, had a pretty good career, too. So, that's 3 out of the 5 main group members. So, that's not bad.

  14. #64
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    Here's my favourite Serenaders' song:

  15. #65
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    Here's an unreleased cut by The Serenaders recorded in 1963 for Riverside Records. They should have had this on the flip of "Two Lovers Make One Fool" - it would have quickly become the "A" Side!

  16. #66
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    I've been dragging this thread off-topic. So here's a HOB production - Angry Angel by The Caravelles [[led by Harry [[AKA Lee) Gates [[Who was also the lead singer of Detroit's first Dramatics group, recorded by Motown's Joe Hunter):

  17. #67
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    Here's The Glows led by a familiar voice I can't seem to place. But I know I have other records with a group that recorded a fair amount of records with that same voice on lead, but can't remember their group name nor his name:
    Last edited by robb_k; 06-14-2021 at 01:06 PM.

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    Here's the most haunting version of "Willow Weep For Me" I've ever heard out of hundreds of versions, led by a very young Roger Craton [[AKA Lee Rogers):

    A bit more soulful than Chad & Jeremy's, eh???

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    Here's Beth Bynum singing "I'll St You Free" [[Written by Mike Hanks and Carmen Murphy-as an answer song to Ray Charles' "Set Me Free":

    A good job, too!

  20. #70
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    Here's Herman Griffin and The Rayber Voices singing "I'm So Glad I Learned To Do The Cha Cha":

    It was NOT the first record Gordy published with Jobete Music. It was the second. The first was the Wade Jones record on RayBer Records [[1001) which was recorded in late 1958, and released early in 1959, while this record was released later in 1959.

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    Here's Freddy Butler singing "I Told You So" - his first record:

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    Here are The Deans singing "Lady of The Caravan" and "Chills, Chills, Chills:

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterysinger View Post
    In some quarters HOB is listed as a gospel subsidiary of Motown.

    Seem to have a couple of recognisable names on their records early on - Herman Griffin & The Rayber Voices, Voices of Tabernacle, The Contours [[though I think that may be a different group).

    Berry Gordy wrote [[and arranged?) "I Need You" and "I'm So Glad" for Herman Griffin. The music for "I'm So Glad" seems to be copyright to Rayber Music Writing Co. "I Need You" is the first song published by Jobete.

    I've not read much about this label so I'm guessing the Motown connection may be overplayed, or is it?
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    Is that how they list it now at BMI. I've seen hundreds of copies of the record, and EVERY one listed Jobete Music on both sides. And, actually, The Wade Jones RayBer 1001 record may have been first put out in late 1958. But it didn't sell. Then Berry had Robert West's B&H Distributors take over in early 1959. It's difficult to know which was first because there wasn't any official release date for the RayBer record. I've seen both a late '58 and early '59 release date for Griffin's HOB record. I've actually read a quote tonight that said it was a December, 1959 release [[but that's too late).

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    Here's The Meditations singing "One More River To Cross":

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    Quote Originally Posted by booty View Post
    Attachment 19130
    Thanks. Very interesting what I never noticed before, were white DJ issues of The
    Peppermints' "Believe Me", and The Herman Griffin record. I had never seen either before. And they don't say, "DJ issue, not for sale".

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