supremes 68- 71

[daviddh]

Just curious on your thoughts
The Supremes were on a roll from 64 thru 67.
But starting in 1968 there were misfires.
What changes would you make.
I'd start with Something's You Never Get, and replaced with Going Down For the Third Time or There's No Stopping Us Now.
I'm Gonna Make it could have worked.
If the 1969 singles, the only single I liked was No Matter What Sign You R.
I would have replaced Livin In Shame, The Composer.
I'll Set You Free
Chains Of Love.
1970
Replace Everybody Got The Right.
Go with Lovin Country or Life Beats

[RanRan79]

I think the DRATS period put Gordy's tunnel vision on full display. He was so caught up in the future of Diana Ross that he forgot the reason people liked Diana Ross: the Supremes. And when it came to the Supremes, they were THE SUPREMES because of the massive hits they racked up.

IMO, "Some Things" was the first mistake. No, I probably would not have followed "Reflections" up with "In and Out", but ultimately the song still kept the group relevant. In hindsight, many of us fans have speculated that "Forever" needed some more work, some tweaks, to be readied for single release. But that's with hindsight. At the time, I can understand why the song might be chosen as a single. I also think it was one of those 50/50 songs. I get why it may not have been a big hit, but it wouldn't have surprised me if it had become a big hit. Anyway, I said all that to say that when it came to "Never Get Used To", as great of a song as it is, it doesn't seem to have the elements that were necessary to bank on DRATS continued chart popularity.

"Love Child", "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me", the duet album, the TCB special and accompanying soundtrack saved 1968 for the Supremes. Those last few months of the year were damn near perfect. The only "problem" was the LC album itself. Being titled after one of the biggest hits of the year seems like it would have had fans flocking to get it. I think the album may have become big like some of the Flo era albums if more singles were released. "Keep An Eye", "Evening Train", "I'll Set You Free", "Chains of Love", all of these may have benefitted from some remixing but I think they had the elements that might have made hits out of them. The late 60s were the time of more thoughtful albums as opposed to random tracks packaged together. Had more thought gone into LC and it's subsequent singles and it might have been huge.

Too bad 1969 wouldn't repeat the success. While I don't like "Shame", I get it. And it's hard to argue against it because it did become a big hit. As much as I love "I'll Try Something New", that wasn't the single either. I actually don't really hear any more singles on the Join album, which is fine because at that point the two groups had a huge hit together and two huge albums, and a successful tv special. Plus Gordy knew another special would be on the schedule and that a follow up duet album would be on the schedule.

"The Composer" was a horrible single. Great song, but I find it hard to believe that anyone in QC heard it and thought "Yes! That's the next song that is going to send DRATS back to number one!". Done right, at this point the LC album could still be milked for singles. I think "No Matter" sounds like a hit, it just failed to catch on. It happens, but I definitely understand why it was released as a single.

When it came to new duets, "Why Must We Fall In Love" is almost certainly a missed hit. It's hard for me to imagine it as a single failing to hit at least the top 10 across the board. Whoever voted for "The Weight" should have been punched in the face. And I would have probably combined the Sunshine album and the Crop album as the final DRATS studio album, called it Someday We'll Be Together, changed the cover art.

When it came to the New Supremes, I would have definitely followed up "Ladder" with something other than "Everybody". I think the RO album was chocked full of potential follow up singles.

[sup_fan]

Berry absolutely did have tunnel vision when it came to Diana and her career. IMO he probably was less concerned about the singles and albums because HDH was there to hold the line. he knew the guys would keep delivering hits meanwhile berry would focus on getting the girls onto tv [[tarzan), the tv specials, bigger and better live shows, etc.

but then HDH threw a wrench in the works. their work slow-down and departure really interrupted Berry's plans and the company absolutely wasn't prepared. I think Forever was a desperate attempt put another HDH song out there. Reflections was huge but In and Out wasn't. it was only on the charts for 8 weeks and crept into the top 10. it sat at #9 for two weeks and then gone. Itching in My Heart is the only other song to have such a short run since Run run Run. This all plays into the story that HDH was slowing down and not finishing material or not producing things. i don't know that exact timeline, but Reflections was released in late July 67 and peaked in September. so it would strike me that In and Out was also maybe an attempt to do something while HDH was MIA

as for albums, i think Berry just saw them as cardboard billboards lol. another way to get their name and photo out in front of the public. multiple times they'd flooded the market - Liverpool, sam cook, cw&p were all released within a few months and just a month or two after WDOLG and a couple months prior to More Hits. The we got Copa, Xmas and Symphony all within a couple months too. So the 1968 onslaught of albums wasn't new. but perhaps the tactic was wearing out by this time.

i think you're right that motown was very late to the game with utilizing an lp to do more than just empty the vault of canned filler tracks. you would think Berry would have recognized this after the success of Pet Sounds and Sgt Pepper.

[rovereab]

When it came to new duets, "Why Must We Fall In Love" is almost certainly a missed hit. It's hard for me to imagine it as a single failing to hit at least the top 10 across the board. Whoever voted for "The Weight" should have been punched in the face.

We are lucky in the UK that the UK Motown office decided to release Why... as a single. I recall it reached the top 30 but not that high up. It was, however, a quality performance that deserved to be a hit single.

[sup_fan]

We are lucky in the UK that the UK Motown office decided to release Why... as a single. I recall it reached the top 30 but not that high up. It was, however, a quality performance that deserved to be a hit single.

i wonder if the stunted chart performance was due to the hoopla surrounding the departure of DR and the release of Ladder. i think Why was released in the UK in March of 70, Ladder was released in the US in Feb and it was typically a month or so later that the international release occurred. so odds are Why was competing with Ladder at the same time. and just didn't stand a chance. not that it's a poor song - it's one of the best of the DRATS/Temps duets. but it was sort of "old news" by this time and the New Supremes were, well, new lol

[sup_fan]

people have often pointed to the Jimmy Webb as the fall off point for the supremes, but you could probably successfully argue that the date occurred years earlier. i think it happened in early 68. 67 had been a huge year for the group - Love Is Here, happening, Reflections. plus the Sing HDH album and R&H album both sold and charted well. and then the smashing success of Greatest Hits.

but then the Reflections album only got to 18 whereas the other studio albums had all charted way up in the top 10. even the LC album which contained far stronger material than Reflections still only charted in the teens. of course you still had points of major success - LC single, the first duets album. but the group was on a long, slow decline. subsequent albums barely made the top 40, singles barely made the top 40. even GH3 didn't chart high.

you had some renewed interest in the group when Jean joined. and the singles did a little better than the later DRATS ones. but clearly the group had had it's day. and even with a different singer, it was still the same old thing

[RanRan79]

people have often pointed to the Jimmy Webb as the fall off point for the supremes, but you could probably successfully argue that the date occurred years earlier.

Not only could I, but I have argued that point previously. Lol

I would say it began with 1969. DRATS had a couple bumps in early to mid 1968, and the FG album was an abysmal failure. But those last few months of 1968 and into early 1969 saw DRATS still on top of the game. If not for "Shame" and "Someday", 1969 would have been a complete failure.

[floyjoy678]

Not only could I, but I have argued that point previously. Lol

I would say it began with 1969. DRATS had a couple bumps in early to mid 1968, and the FG album was an abysmal failure. But those last few months of 1968 and into early 1969 saw DRATS still on top of the game. If not for "Shame" and "Someday", 1969 would have been a complete failure.

I've always said the same thing. The act was getting stale by '69 despite the recent success they had in late '68.

I personally think Diana should have headed out after TCB.

[sup_fan]

Not only could I, but I have argued that point previously. Lol

I would say it began with 1969. DRATS had a couple bumps in early to mid 1968, and the FG album was an abysmal failure. But those last few months of 1968 and into early 1969 saw DRATS still on top of the game. If not for "Shame" and "Someday", 1969 would have been a complete failure.

Shame basically performed like In and Out. shot up fast to it's peak position and then dropped like a rock.

this is one time when i might actually acknowledge Tony Turner being [[somewhat) accurate lol. he mentioned that everyone rushed out to get the single because of the provocative title. but then everyone agreed it was just plain stupid. it had a good beat and strong production but just inane.

the crazy thing though is that it's not like all of their music just sucked. we can cut them some slack for having to try and pivot due to the whole HDH fracas. so In and Out, Forever and Some Things - fine they're trying to recover.

starting with Love Child, i think you could have easily created an 18 month span of truly superior music.
*skip funny girl and hold TOTT
*Love Child issued in Sept. along with the lp
*IGMYLM issued in Dec to coincide with the tv special and Join lp.
*Evening Train issued in early 69 as the follow up to LC. and maybe issue TOTT to keep things going
*then maybe release Discover Me in the summer and Someday in the fall.
*merge Sunshine and Crop into 1 lp.
*skip the second duets album. and instead of GIT maybe do a tv special on the history of black music. some jazz stuff [[setting up DR nicely for Lady), early doo-wop, some of the famous black musicals like Porgy and Bess, Cabin in the Sky. etc
*issue GH3 with better cover - maybe combine with Farewell into a 2 disc set? one disc of hits and second with highlights from the show

you can easily continue this more thoughtful approach to the 70s. skip the Tops duets until AFTER Stone Love and NW. and push Diana's EIE until after Surrender

[daviddh]

i agree with Why Must We Fall In Love, far better than The Weight
maybe Try It Baby would have worked better than Try Something New.
i love the idea of combining Sunshine and Cream into one album
to much product all at one time
yep ,cancel FG ,hold TOTT until later,maybe 69
some great points above. thought it was just me but ,someone was dropping the ball

[Motown Eddie]

Just curious on your thoughts
The Supremes were on a roll from 64 thru 67.
But starting in 1968 there were misfires.
What changes would you make.

I wouldn't have released The Supremes Sing Funny Girl or the Dynamite LP [with The Four Tops]. And "Some Things You Never Get Used To", "No Matter What Sign You Are" & "Touch" would've been B-Sides or LP cuts but not A-side singles.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I would say by 1968 that the group was so established that their popularity was no longer reliant on hit singles. When it became Diana Ross & The Supremes, it was merely a framework to launch Diana Ross into a solo career and no longer really a group. The loss of HDH required some experimenting with their sound and started a history of hits and misses for both Diana Ross and the Supremes. Motown used a number of songs some of which worked and some didn't. By 1970, the focus was on Diana Ross as a soloist. Motown had a new sound in the new Supremes and probably was just working to see what sound would be their new sound yet still retain the group image and sound. When Motown was really focused on Diana, I am sure that was no longer the label's top priority yet still a solid one. We can be armchair quarterbacks deciding what should have been but none of us really know what would have worked and what wouldn't have worked as singles.

[sup_fan]

I would say by 1968 that the group was so established that their popularity was no longer reliant on hit singles. When it became Diana Ross & The Supremes, it was merely a framework to launch Diana Ross into a solo career and no longer really a group. The loss of HDH required some experimenting with their sound and started a history of hits and misses for both Diana Ross and the Supremes. Motown used a number of songs some of which worked and some didn't. By 1970, the focus was on Diana Ross as a soloist. Motown had a new sound in the new Supremes and probably was just working to see what sound would be their new sound yet still retain the group image and sound. When Motown was really focused on Diana, I am sure that was no longer the label's top priority yet still a solid one. We can be armchair quarterbacks deciding what should have been but none of us really know what would have worked and what wouldn't have worked as singles.

agreed - and many of us are simply identifying personal fav tunes as potential singles. but it's fun to bounce ideas around and gather opinions

like Going Down Third Time. this is a fav of mine and many others on here. i think we all agree that it's just a stupendous song and production. IMO though, the problem is it was one of MANY stupendous songs and by the time the recorded it, there were others that were frankly just a bit better. it was recorded near the time of YCHL and while Going Down is good, YCHL is head and shoulders above. then comes YKMHO - same situation. ditto Love Is here [[which frankly i don't even like all that much personally lol). by the time you get past Reflections, there's finally a opening where you could have released Going. but by late 67 maybe it was a bit out dated. it's sounds like typical motown 1966 and things were changing. maybe it just wasn't fresh enough.

[RanRan79]

In order for "Going Down" to work, it would have had to follow "The Happening", and Sup is right, by that time the song sounded a tad bit behind the times. I think if it was remixed it could have been a hit. Number one? I don't know. Top ten? Yeah, I think so.

[Ollie9]

I would say by 1968 that the group was so established that their popularity was no longer reliant on hit singles. When it became Diana Ross & The Supremes, it was merely a framework to launch Diana Ross into a solo career and no longer really a group. The loss of HDH required some experimenting with their sound and started a history of hits and misses for both Diana Ross and the Supremes. Motown used a number of songs some of which worked and some didn't. By 1970, the focus was on Diana Ross as a soloist. Motown had a new sound in the new Supremes and probably was just working to see what sound would be their new sound yet still retain the group image and sound. When Motown was really focused on Diana, I am sure that was no longer the label's top priority yet still a solid one. We can be armchair quarterbacks deciding what should have been but none of us really know what would have worked and what wouldn't have worked as singles.

Some good points Jim. By 68/9 i don’t think the groups popularity was totally reliant on hit singles, but with Diana’s solo career in mind it had to be seen she was leaving on a high.
I agree that it’s a lot easier to prejudge when you know what worked and what didn’t.

[sup_fan]

Some good points Jim. By 68/9 i don’t think the groups popularity was totally reliant on hit singles, but with Diana’s solo career in mind it had to be seen she was leaving on a high.
I agree that it’s a lot easier to prejudge when you know what worked and what didn’t.

unfortunately using the group as a launch pad for DR might have eroded some of the loyalty and interest from a broader fan group. because things were so focused on DR and the preparation for her solo career, there was a de-emphasis on "The Supremes" and so once she was gone, the reputation of the group was in limbo.

you probably could have done both pretty easily - launch DR and still maintain a youthful public relevance for the group. if the lps had been assembled with more care. maybe skip FG and GIT and do something more inline with public interest. like maybe skip GIT and Together and instead have DRATS & Temps Sing Songs from Hair. put out better, stronger, more hip singles like Evening Train and Discover Me.

then when Diana went solo, you'd still have had a reputation for The Supremes of providing quality, current music. that might have also given the group more leeway to push into new directions in 71 and 72

[lucky2012]

For me, the first misfire was In And Out Of Love. It seemed so lackluster for a Supremes single. At least it was a Top Ten hit, probably because the group was riding so high. My armchair thought/fantasy would be that Forever Came Today would be polished and ready to be the follow-up to Reflections. Not a #1 but at least Top Ten. And, it was up-to-date and progressive.

I wouldn't know how to fill the long gap between late 1967 and Love Child. Somethings You Never Get Used To and tracks from the Reflections album just don't do it for me. I do think the Love Child album could have produced more hit singles [How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone, Keep An Eye, I'll Set You Free, even Does Your Mama Know About Me]. Again, I don't know how to fill the gap until Someday We'll Be Together. I guess I can see Living In Shame and No Matter What Sign as follow-up singles to How Long or I'll Set You Free. I like the idea of combining the best of LTSI and COC earlier in 1969 and saving Someday for Greatest Hits 3.

[sup_fan]

For me, the first misfire was In And Out Of Love. It seemed so lackluster for a Supremes single. At least it was a Top Ten hit, probably because the group was riding so high. My armchair thought/fantasy would be that Forever Came Today would be polished and ready to be the follow-up to Reflections. Not a #1 but at least Top Ten. And, it was up-to-date and progressive.

I wouldn't know how to fill the long gap between late 1967 and Love Child. Somethings You Never Get Used To and tracks from the Reflections album just don't do it for me. I do think the Love Child album could have produced more hit singles [How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone, Keep An Eye, I'll Set You Free, even Does Your Mama Know About Me]. Again, I don't know how to fill the gap until Someday We'll Be Together. I guess I can see Living In Shame and No Matter What Sign as follow-up singles to How Long or I'll Set You Free. I like the idea of combining the best of LTSI and COC earlier in 1969 and saving Someday for Greatest Hits 3.

Reflections was late July 67 - so you'd need 3 or so singles to fill in between it and LC in Sept 68. then another 3 or so singles to get you to Oct 69 and Someday

LC and I'm Gonna Make You were practically recorded on top of each other. both songs vocals were recorded in Sept 68. so unfortunately that means IGMYLM can't be a single prior to LC. and it definitely has to be one of the ones following LC. but if you have 3 or so spots for singles between LC and Someday, do you do IGMYLM and Why Must we Fall In Love [[another very good duet)? IGMYLM is a #1 song IMO. had it not been competing with LC and For Once In My Life and Grapevine, it would have gone top. Why probably would have been a solid top 10 but not 1.

for songs prior to:
Forever - maybe if HDH had had the time to finish it up
Then
Going Down
the beginning of the end of love
the beginning of the end
will this be the day
he's my sunny boy
if you should walk away
when it's to the top
you've been so wonderful
can't shake it lose
honey bee
don't break these chains of love

so pretty much all of the Reflections album and the more "pop" tunes from the LC album. things like Train, keep an eye, does mama were recorded later

[TNSUN]

"There's No Stopping Us Now" has the horn bleep glitch.Was it removed on further album pressings? As a single release recording the horn bleep glitch could have been removed. TNSUN musically expresses The Motown Sound. I am unaware of other artists covering this great song. I never tire of the enthusiasm of this song. Diana's vocals are optimistic perfection in this great tune! Was the song ever considered for a single release at a weekly Motown Quality Control Committee Meeting?

[florence]

We are lucky in the UK that the UK Motown office decided to release Why... as a single. I recall it reached the top 30 but not that high up. It was, however, a quality performance that deserved to be a hit single.

I thought Uptight [[even if a cover) the B-side had the greater potential as a UK hit single

[sup_fan]

"There's No Stopping Us Now" has the horn bleep glitch.Was it removed on further album pressings? As a single release recording the horn bleep glitch could have been removed. TNSUN musically expresses The Motown Sound. I am unaware of other artists covering this great song. I never tire of the enthusiasm of this song. Diana's vocals are optimistic perfection in this great tune! Was the song ever considered for a single release at a weekly Motown Quality Control Committee Meeting?

well said - it always jumped out to me too as a killer track on Sing HDH. I like Mother You, Smother You but to me, it sounded more like a More Hits era track and maybe even a single back then. by 67 it was still good but not as advanced as some others

I think TNSUN fell into the same trap as Going Down. both are high quality, great songs that just got beat out by songs that were even MORE high quality. and man- lol what a problem to have!!

[Motown Eddie]

"There's No Stopping Us Now" has the horn bleep glitch.Was it removed on further album pressings? As a single release recording the horn bleep glitch could have been removed.

The 'horn bleep glitch' on The Supremes' "There's No Stopping Us Now" has never been removed. It's still there on the deluxe edition of The Supremes Sing H-D-H & The Complete Motown Singles, Vol. 7-1967. The glitch really stands out on the mono mix of the song and less so on the LP stereo mix.

[lucky2012]

Reflections was late July 67 - so you'd need 3 or so singles to fill in between it and LC in Sept 68. then another 3 or so singles to get you to Oct 69 and Someday

LC and I'm Gonna Make You were practically recorded on top of each other. both songs vocals were recorded in Sept 68. so unfortunately that means IGMYLM can't be a single prior to LC. and it definitely has to be one of the ones following LC. but if you have 3 or so spots for singles between LC and Someday, do you do IGMYLM and Why Must we Fall In Love [[another very good duet)? IGMYLM is a #1 song IMO. had it not been competing with LC and For Once In My Life and Grapevine, it would have gone top. Why probably would have been a solid top 10 but not 1.

for songs prior to:
Forever - maybe if HDH had had the time to finish it up
Then
Going Down
the beginning of the end of love
the beginning of the end
will this be the day
he's my sunny boy
if you should walk away
when it's to the top
you've been so wonderful
can't shake it lose
honey bee
don't break these chains of love

so pretty much all of the Reflections album and the more "pop" tunes from the LC album. things like Train, keep an eye, does mama were recorded later

OK, sup_fan, the Supremes run of singles from Where Did Our Love Go to Reflections was spectacular and unequaled except by the Beatles. If I had to choose two or three tracks that I think maybe could have been hit singles from what was released after Reflections, I choose [remixed versions of] Forever Came Today, Bah Bah Bah, Then and Don't Break These Chains of Love [which reminds me of More Today Than Yesterday, from around that time].

I have way too much time on my hands, so here's my armchair fantasy schedule:

July 1967 Reflections [include on album Reflections: Greatest Hits, Volumes 1 & 2 September 1967
October 1967 Forever Came Today
January 1968 Bah Bah Bah
March 1968 Album Forever Came Today
April 1968 Then b/w In And Out Of Love
July 1968 Don't Break These Chains Of Love b/w Can't Shake It Loose
October 1968 Love Child
November 1968 Album Love Child
December 1968 Album TCB soundtrack
December 1968 How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone b/w Does Your Mama Know About Me?
January 1969 Album Join The Temptations
January 1969 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me b/w Try It Baby
March 1969 Living In Shame b/w Keep An Eye
April 1969 Why Must We Fall In Love?
June 1969 No Matter What Sign You Are b/w I'll Set You free
July 1969 Album No Matter What Sign
August 1969 You Gave Me Love
November 1969 Someday We'll Be Together
December 1969 Album Greatest Hits, Volume 3

Note that I skipped releasing TOTT, Funny Girl, GIT, Together. I love Sing and Perform Funny Girl, so maybe release it in April 1969 after Barbra has won her Oscar?

[Boogiedown]

Supremes 1971 could've nailed this: