Follow Up.

[Ollie9]

Out of all the songs produced by Bob Howe, for me “Stoney End” is the only one that deserved to be on that first solo album. It has a great gospel vibe to it and HUGE single potential. Surely it would have been the obvious follow up to “ANMHE”.
It could have replaced “Can’t It Wait Until Tomorrow” which although still a great song, for me is for me the weakest song on the album.
I always thought it strange that other Howe songs were not used for Everything Is Everything which has more of a pop feel to it than the first solo album.

[daviddh]

Not a big fan of Stoney End but I do like the other tracks....but agree....it could have been a follow up.
I would have included them in EIE....even that album had nice outtakes

[florence]

Nice album track but don't see it as a single.

The only other single hit I see on the album is These Things which was seriously considered as a release but ditched.

[reese]

STONEY END is a great recording. Both it and TIME AND LOVE probably would have fit well on the EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING. In fact, it might have made sense to release STONEY END as the first single off EVERYTHING instead of rushing it out with no single until well into the next year.

[thommg]

I can't say that I think any of the Bones Howe songs would have worked as a single. They sound better when the 5th Dimension & Barbra Streisand sang them. Diana did a nice job on them but they didn't seem to fit her [[though I think the Time & Love track fits her better than Jean Terrell). I prefer all of her Diana Ross [[1970) & Surrender tracks to the Bones tracks. And, of course, it may also be that I know the other versions so well that hers sound off to me. Don't you always seem to prefer the first version of a song when you hear it over and over?

[RanRan79]

I think all four of the Howe tracks were very good, although for the longest time I only played "Stoney End". It took awhile for the others to grow on me. I do agree that "Stoney" would've made a great single, but I fear it would have alienated her r&b audience as it sounds to my ears as pure pop. That early period was important to ensure that she had everyone on board as fans. As an album track it, along with "Time", would've made great additions. I've stated my opinion about the debut album before, that to me the album has a dark tone to it. Somber might be a way I would describe it. With "Stoney" and "Time" replacing "You're All I Need" on side 1 and "Tomorrow" or, probably even better, "Keep An Eye" on side 2, I think the album would've balanced out a bit better.

I also agree about "Can't It Wait Until Tomorrow". It is possibly the weakest song on the album and I rarely listen to it. I wish Val had given Diana the arrangement that Valerie used for herself. It would've been a highlight for the album, no doubt.

Regarding EIE, I'm not really hearing how "Stoney" or "Time" fits in with the vibe of that album. The only songs I might consider poppy sounding is "Long and Winding" and the title track, and I might be pushing it with the title track. But I would never categorize most of the tracks as pop.

"These Things" I think may have done as well as "Reach Out and Touch" did. I could hear it in the top 10 r&b, top 20 pop like "Reach". But it never would've been as memorable and long lasting as "Reach Out and Touch", and certainly would not have repeated the success of it's soundalike in "Someday We'll Be Together". It's also a song I feel, once again, could've used some punching up in the track. It's not doing enough. The melody is great, the lyrics very good, Diana sounds nice, the Johnny Bristol addition feels familiar, but it still feels like not enough. The Velvelettes deserved a major hit with their version. Diana's not so much.

[RanRan79]

And, of course, it may also be that I know the other versions so well that hers sound off to me. Don't you always seem to prefer the first version of a song when you hear it over and over?

I haven't found that to be true of myself, though I do believe that most people subscribe to your thinking. There have been so many times that a remake has made me ditch an original, but also probably an equal number of times have I just added a remake to my "I Love It" list along with the original. But I can understand how one might feel as you do.

Full disclosure, but I have never heard any of those songs until I heard Diana's versions, with the exception of "Time and Love" which I first heard by the Supremes. So I was able to form opinions about those songs without comparing them to their more famous originals. Eventually I did come to listen to "Time And Love" by Laura Nyro, I think, and "Stoney End" by Streisand.

[Ollie9]

I think all four of the Howe tracks were very good, although for the longest time I only played "Stoney End". It took awhile for the others to grow on me. I do agree that "Stoney" would've made a great single, but I fear it would have alienated her r&b audience as it sounds to my ears as pure pop. That early period was important to ensure that she had everyone on board as fans. As an album track it, along with "Time", would've made great additions. I've stated my opinion about the debut album before, that to me the album has a dark tone to it. Somber might be a way I would describe it. With "Stoney" and "Time" replacing "You're All I Need" on side 1 and "Tomorrow" or, probably even better, "Keep An Eye" on side 2, I think the album would've balanced out a bit better.

I also agree about "Can't It Wait Until Tomorrow". It is possibly the weakest song on the album and I rarely listen to it. I wish Val had given Diana the arrangement that Valerie used for herself. It would've been a highlight for the album, no doubt.

Regarding EIE, I'm not really hearing how "Stoney" or "Time" fits in with the vibe of that album. The only songs I might consider poppy sounding is "Long and Winding" and the title track, and I might be pushing it with the title track. But I would never categorize most of the tracks as pop.

"These Things" I think may have done as well as "Reach Out and Touch" did. I could hear it in the top 10 r&b, top 20 pop like "Reach". But it never would've been as memorable and long lasting as "Reach Out and Touch", and certainly would not have repeated the success of it's soundalike in "Someday We'll Be Together". It's also a song I feel, once again, could've used some punching up in the track. It's not doing enough. The melody is great, the lyrics very good, Diana sounds nice, the Johnny Bristol addition feels familiar, but it still feels like not enough. The Velvelettes deserved a major hit with their version. Diana's not so much.

I’m not to crazy on “Time” and that includes Jeans version as well. I don’t think it would have fit at all on the first album, but could possibly have replaced “Everything Is Everything”. That album to me being lighter and more pop orientated.
”Stoney is a little less pop and i think a much stronger song with hit potential. Perhaps as you say it was still deemed to pop which is a shame.
I adore that debut album so would not want to change to many songs on it. I enjoy a bit of somber.

[daviddh]

I would not have used the Bones Howe tracks on the first album but yes to EIE which had some duds......starting with the syrupy long n winding road..omg.cant listen to it or Doobe Doo song.both could have gone to the Partridge Family

[Bluebrock]

I would not have used the Bones Howe tracks on the first album but yes to EIE which had some duds......starting with the syrupy long n winding road..omg.cant listen to it or Doobe Doo song.both could have gone to the Partridge Family

I like the "Doobe Doo" song. It was a sizeable UK hit. I agree there were a few duds on this album. Come Together and Winding Road were boring and should never have made the final cut. Aside from Last Time i saw him it is definitely the weakest of her 70's albums.

[sup_fan]

Doobee suffers from an inane title. I believe the original title was I Just Started Livin' which would have served it much better. If you REALLY wanted to, maybe it could have been title something like I Just Started Livin' [[Doobee Doobee Doo) or something. but frankly the Doobees were sooooooo present in the song and boarderline annoying that there really is no reason to emphasize them more. I do really like the chorus though and overall the song is decent.

i haven't been bowled over by the Bones material. way too "dionne warwick" in sound and approach. it might have done ok but could have actually hampered her stardom quest. the hype of her going solo was enough to generate public interest. but without a powerhouse mega hit, people would have eventually said 'ok that was fun but onto something else now'

nothing here [[or frankly most of Bones overall work) is equal to the explosion generated by Mountain. The goal was to turn Diane Ross into MISS DIANA ROSS. you need something over the top and audacious for that.

[Ollie9]

I think Motown got it spot on with the debut album. The album presents Diana as a mature, confident vocalist who is just as comfortable with darker, more adult orientated material as with lighter pop confections. Only two years later she would be taking on the Billie Holiday song book.
EIE is all wrong for me. Had the album been titled Stoney End with that song as lead single I think it could have gone top ten. This could have started a full scale assault on the charts. “My Place”, “Close To You” and Baby It’s Love” all have potential to be hit singles. Doobee and “I’m Still Waiting” were of course substantial hits when released in the UK. I would also have added the Bones Howe tracks to replace a couple of the weaker songs. The silly “Everything Is Everything” being one.

[sup_fan]

the booklet for EIE was a very interesting read, hearing Deke's recollections. i believe he had sort of 2 ideas that had been floating around in his head. one was a pop album for her and another was "diana sings the beatles." Not sure that he was really all that serious about the later but had at least been thinking.

When berry told him to get to work on an album for her, Deke was basically given 0 time. so hence the mishmosh approach. we got a couple beatles tunes, some deke originals and then padding out with some others.

If we look at the general direction Deke was taking with her, i think there was something there of potential. while radically different from the A&S work, it wasn't bad. of course some songs are much stronger than others. but i do like her version of Come Together. Long and Winding is just that - long and winding lol. and overwrought

now the bigger question is this style and sound, in hindsight, the right direction for her. and i think it was not. you already had her firmly established in light bubbly pop. the direction A&S took was much more r&b and much more range while still having some strong pop sensibility. it wasn't totally alienating to her white fans.

But back in 70, who could have predicted. Berry wanted options and needed something fast

[florence]

I like the "Doobe Doo" song. It was a sizeable UK hit.

I quite like it too although it's by no means one of her strongest.

Again we have a certain Radio 1 DJ Tony Blackburn to thank that the record advanced to #12.

I doudt it would have been as big as that had he not as usual championed Diana christening it the "Doobe Doo" song and playing it constantly.

Airplay on Radio 1 was goldust!

[RanRan79]

"Reach Out and Touch" turned out to be a great long term decision single release. "Mountain" was the obvious single choice. But in original release form, there wasn't another single on the debut album. "These Things" could've worked as the lead single but not following "Mountain". After "Mountain" everything else is album filler.

Since Surrender was unfinished by the time Motown needed a second album, I think EIE was perfect. It fit Ross and had a brighter feel to it than the previous album. I think "Baby It's Love" was the clear first choice of a single, followed by "I'm Still Waiting". "My Place" was also single worthy, but I don't think I would've chosen it over the other two.

By the time "Waiting" is winding down, then "Remember Me" hits the streets and the subsequent album, Surrender, would've been ready and released. After "Remember", I think "Surrender" was an excellent choice for a single. I probably would've followed it up with "And If You See Him". As much as I love Diana's version of "Reach Out I'll Be There", I love it as an album track, not a single.

[Ollie9]

"Reach Out and Touch" turned out to be a great long term decision single release. "Mountain" was the obvious single choice. But in original release form, there wasn't another single on the debut album. "These Things" could've worked as the lead single but not following "Mountain". After "Mountain" everything else is album filler.

Since Surrender was unfinished by the time Motown needed a second album, I think EIE was perfect. It fit Ross and had a brighter feel to it than the previous album. I think "Baby It's Love" was the clear first choice of a single, followed by "I'm Still Waiting". "My Place" was also single worthy, but I don't think I would've chosen it over the other two.

By the time "Waiting" is winding down, then "Remember Me" hits the streets and the subsequent album, Surrender, would've been ready and released. After "Remember", I think "Surrender" was an excellent choice for a single. I probably would've followed it up with "And If You See Him". As much as I love Diana's version of "Reach Out I'll Be There", I love it as an album track, not a single.

And If You See Him” has to be one of my favourite Diana songs of all time. Brilliant song and vocal. The fact there were so many songs recorded during that time period with potential to be hit singles speaks volumes for the quality of the music she was putting out.
The only real major boo boo from the early to mid 70’s single wise was the release of “sleepin”. The whole LTISH album for that matter.

[RanRan79]

And If You See Him” has to be one of my favourite Diana songs of all time. Brilliant song and vocal. The fact there were so many songs recorded during that time period with potential to be hit singles speaks volumes for the quality of the music she was putting out.
The only real major boo boo from the early to mid 70’s single wise was the release of “sleepin”. The whole LTISH album for that matter.

Believe it or not, "And If You See Him" was originally the song on the album I didn't care for. It took years for it to grow on me. But when it did...well now I actually hear it's singles ability. It really is a great performance.

Regarding Diana's early to mid singles, I pretty much agree. While I personally would've probably chosen different singles in place of "I'll Be There", "Special Part" and "Mistake", they weren't singles that left me scratching my head wondering why anyone thought they would make good singles. "Sleepin" however was a disastrous release. While I love the song as an album track, it is not radio friendly. In order for the song to become a hit, Diana would've need to pull off some kind of promo spectacle that endeared the song to the public. And that's still no guarantee it would've done much better than it did. Diana's vocal is emotional, the music dramatic, the background singers echo Diana and the music where appropriate. I think the song deserved a Grammy nom. But it was never going to be a hit single.

"Last Time" should have been a stand alone single- later to be included on Diana's greatest hits album- and in 1974 I would have put out the lp Why Play Games:

I Heard A Love Song
When Will I Come Home To You
Sleepin
Stone Liberty
Behind Closed Doors
Kewpie Doll

I'll Be Here
Why Play Games
Get It All Together
Where Did We Go Wrong
Let Me Be the One
I Wanna Go Back There Again

I would've released "Why Play Games" as the lead single, followed up by "I Heard A Love Song". "Kewpie Doll" might be considered for the lead single, followed by "Games" and then "Heard". "Stone Liberty" has potential to be mixed as a single. But I think "Games" was a definite missed opportunity.

[sup_fan]

Believe it or not, "And If You See Him" was originally the song on the album I didn't care for. It took years for it to grow on me. But when it did...well now I actually hear it's singles ability. It really is a great performance.

Regarding Diana's early to mid singles, I pretty much agree. While I personally would've probably chosen different singles in place of "I'll Be There", "Special Part" and "Mistake", they weren't singles that left me scratching my head wondering why anyone thought they would make good singles. "Sleepin" however was a disastrous release. While I love the song as an album track, it is not radio friendly. In order for the song to become a hit, Diana would've need to pull off some kind of promo spectacle that endeared the song to the public. And that's still no guarantee it would've done much better than it did. Diana's vocal is emotional, the music dramatic, the background singers echo Diana and the music where appropriate. I think the song deserved a Grammy nom. But it was never going to be a hit single.

"Last Time" should have been a stand alone single- later to be included on Diana's greatest hits album- and in 1974 I would have put out the lp Why Play Games:

I Heard A Love Song
When Will I Come Home To You
Sleepin
Stone Liberty
Behind Closed Doors
Kewpie Doll

I'll Be Here
Why Play Games
Get It All Together
Where Did We Go Wrong
Let Me Be the One
I Wanna Go Back There Again

I would've released "Why Play Games" as the lead single, followed up by "I Heard A Love Song". "Kewpie Doll" might be considered for the lead single, followed by "Games" and then "Heard". "Stone Liberty" has potential to be mixed as a single. But I think "Games" was a definite missed opportunity.

i think, since Masser had hit with Touch Me and Last Time, he should have been in charge of the entire LTISH album. his productions were big and lush but not only sweeping ballads. like No One Gonna Be a Fool. Last Time is dixieland fun. So he had definitely proven himself and could have led up an full album. Or at least most of one. Perhaps Ron Miller could have assisted with a few tracks.

[RanRan79]

i think, since Masser had hit with Touch Me and Last Time, he should have been in charge of the entire LTISH album. his productions were big and lush but not only sweeping ballads. like No One Gonna Be a Fool. Last Time is dixieland fun. So he had definitely proven himself and could have led up an full album. Or at least most of one. Perhaps Ron Miller could have assisted with a few tracks.

I dig Masser's work with Diana, but after Surrender, Diana did Lady Sings and then TMITM as her solo projects. And then after that she came back with "Last Time", which is a good song and I'll give Motown an A for experimenting, but it was limited in it's appeal. So after that it was time for Diana to get back to something with a groove. "Why" has that, so does "Love Song". Plus both have attention grabbing intros contemporary of the time. Plus Masser would've most likely held Diana to a pop dominated sound, and that's not how I prefer my Ross. "Love Hangover" came just in time, but she needed something with a beat long before that.

[RanRan79]

However, I'm not completely against the idea of a Masser followup to the TMITM album. Definitely would've been a better album than the way LTISH turned out.

[sup_fan]

I dig Masser's work with Diana, but after Surrender, Diana did Lady Sings and then TMITM as her solo projects. And then after that she came back with "Last Time", which is a good song and I'll give Motown an A for experimenting, but it was limited in it's appeal. So after that it was time for Diana to get back to something with a groove. "Why" has that, so does "Love Song". Plus both have attention grabbing intros contemporary of the time. Plus Masser would've most likely held Diana to a pop dominated sound, and that's not how I prefer my Ross. "Love Hangover" came just in time, but she needed something with a beat long before that.

i think the Bob Gaudio work would have made a nice package to tide things over while doing Mahogany.

You're right that after Lady, she had this new image and aura. TMITM was a perfect song and lp for that. Then Masser could have done a follow up album with some mature songs and ballads plus some pop and country things, just to freshen it up a bit.

then the album with Bob's work would have been a good next step. a little more rock. a little heavier.