A Missed Motown Smash

[luke]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vd4X6aPhsNk Mary Wilson

[marv2]

She sounds so, so good on this song......"Love Talk". Motown did miss out with this and others Mary recorded.

[sup_fan]

i think Save Me should have been the lead single from whatever her second album would have been with these 4 tunes [[plus whatever else). It's pop and dance and rock. a good mix for her voice and she sounds totally engaging on it. much more exciting than her disco work prior. maybe it's just a tab slower so her smokey voice doesn't gets as lost?

anyway, i think she could have done very well with a R&R sound, sort of like Tina.

And then of course the follow up single should have been You Dance My Heart Around The Stars

[marv2]

i think Save Me should have been the lead single from whatever her second album would have been with these 4 tunes [[plus whatever else). It's pop and dance and rock. a good mix for her voice and she sounds totally engaging on it. much more exciting than her disco work prior. maybe it's just a tab slower so her smokey voice doesn't gets as lost?

anyway, i think she could have done very well with a R&R sound, sort of like Tina.

And then of course the follow up single should have been You Dance My Heart Around The Stars

I disagree. "You Danced My Heart Around the Stars" was the killer, star track [[no pun intended) of her Gus Dudgeon produced recordings. That song stands up well today and could have been great movie theme.

[sup_fan]

what's truly odd is that 1) motown gave her the masters for these songs and 2) no other recording company would do anything with them

seems very peculiar that motown even bothered to schedule subsequent recording sessions if, all along, they were just planning on dropping her. She worked with Gus on these - being an outside producer did that have some impact on her working relationship with Motown? was she allowed to simply go off and record with someone? or was this a hair-brained [[albeit high quality output) idea of Pedro's?

and then mary makes the comment in Sup Faith that record companies would only be interested in an artist with completed product in hand. But mary DID have product in hand? who actually owns the rights to these songs? Gus? mary? Motown? if she had these 4 tracks ready to go, how come no label would say "Ok at least we dont' have to incur and recording costs. let's see if they spark any interest"

[Circa 1824]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vd4X6aPhsNk Mary Wilson

Her voice is weak, undistinguished, and impossible to sing along with. Flop, not smash, IMHO.

[marv2]

what's truly odd is that 1) motown gave her the masters for these songs and 2) no other recording company would do anything with them

seems very peculiar that motown even bothered to schedule subsequent recording sessions if, all along, they were just planning on dropping her. She worked with Gus on these - being an outside producer did that have some impact on her working relationship with Motown? was she allowed to simply go off and record with someone? or was this a hair-brained [[albeit high quality output) idea of Pedro's?

and then mary makes the comment in Sup Faith that record companies would only be interested in an artist with completed product in hand. But mary DID have product in hand? who actually owns the rights to these songs? Gus? mary? Motown? if she had these 4 tracks ready to go, how come no label would say "Ok at least we dont' have to incur and recording costs. let's see if they spark any interest"

Who said that no other company would do anything with them? You are assuming too much. I remember Mary was negotiating with several record companies back in the 80s. They could not come to terms with her. Boardwalk did but the owner passed away. Both Peter Stringfellow and Merv Griffin wanted to start recording labels built around Mary Wilson. That story that Motown was just going to drop Mary is just that a story, a conclusion that some people came to. They, Motown had contracted for a second Mary Wilson album with THEIR producers. When Mary went outside for production, that caused a stink! Why do you guys always try to blame Pedro Ferrer when it is clear that you know little to nothing about him? Mary was living in the U.K. at the time of the Gus Dudgeon produced tracks. She met him through Elton John.

Mary Wilson owns the rights to those recordings.
How come? I believe Mary wanted the "Big deal" which made negotiations tough I believe. I will say one more time........I believe.
I also am not sure how far in terms of months and years did Mary's contract with Motown ran in the late 70s/early 80s which also could have prevented her from signing with a different company.

[luke]

Makes sense Marv. Wasn’t she negotiating also with Atlantic Records?

[marv2]

Makes sense Marv. Wasn’t she negotiating also with Atlantic Records?

Yes, she was. Also, Fantasy Records tried to sign her and she declined. She sent Brenda Holloway to them instead.

[Roberta75]

Makes sense Marv. Wasn’t she negotiating also with Atlantic Records?

LMAO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew

[jobeterob]

Yes I too heard she was negotiating with the Pope to sing for the Church but her asking price was $30 million and they wouldn’t bless her

[marv2]

Yes I too heard she was negotiating with the Pope to sing for the Church but her asking price was $30 million and they wouldn’t bless her

That is not true. Mary sang at the Vatican for Pope John Paul II for free, then had a private audience with him in the 90s.

[marv2]

[sup_fan]

I disagree. "You Danced My Heart Around the Stars" was the killer, star track [[no pun intended) of her Gus Dudgeon produced recordings. That song stands up well today and could have been great movie theme.

oh i love it too. i just think as a lead single, Save Me might have clicked more than a ballad, albeit a gorgeous one. especially around 1980 with disco and dance still so hot.

[sup_fan]

Who said that no other company would do anything with them? You are assuming too much. I remember Mary was negotiating with several record companies back in the 80s. They could not come to terms with her. Boardwalk did but the owner passed away. Both Peter Stringfellow and Merv Griffin wanted to start recording labels built around Mary Wilson. That story that Motown was just going to drop Mary is just that a story, a conclusion that some people came to. They, Motown had contracted for a second Mary Wilson album with THEIR producers. When Mary went outside for production, that caused a stink! Why do you guys always try to blame Pedro Ferrer when it is clear that you know little to nothing about him? Mary was living in the U.K. at the time of the Gus Dudgeon produced tracks. She met him through Elton John.

Mary Wilson owns the rights to those recordings.
How come? I believe Mary wanted the "Big deal" which made negotiations tough I believe. I will say one more time........I believe.
I also am not sure how far in terms of months and years did Mary's contract with Motown ran in the late 70s/early 80s which also could have prevented her from signing with a different company.

what i was saying is that, in the end, no other company DID do anything with them. "interest" doesn't mean a pile of crap if there's no tangible outcome from it. Execs can say they're "interested" all they want but mary did not receive a single contractual agreement. and as for Griffin and Stringfellow, nice thoughts but again, who cares? that could have simply been chit chat at a cocktail party about "building a label around her." in the end, not a single deal came through.

As for the motown dropping Mary story, that's a story SHE published in Sup Faith. she herself states that she felt motown signed her simply to get her to drop her lawsuit and had no intentions of promoting her or continuing with her.

And while the songs are hot, what on earth would possess her to, once again, buck the process at motown and go with outside producers? does the woman not have any business sense whatsoever? she was, supposedly, a signed artist to the motown label and that contract would have had stipulations about working with another label. Gus was part of Rocket Record Company so what idiot would simply trot off to another label and record while signed elsewhere?

[midnightman]

Red Hot was not put together right. It seems rushed.

To my ears.

[sup_fan]

Red Hot was not put together right. It seems rushed.

To my ears.

agreed. the majority of the songs are pretty poor. like they quickly signed mary, rushed her into the studio and assigned her to Hal. Hal just had to grab whatever songs were around or in enough of a complete state to record

did he do all of the tracks?

[RanRan79]

The GD sessions would've been Mary's ticket out of the shadow of the Supremes. They fit her and they fit the times. I really like "Save Me" but "Love Talk" is my favorite. I think all of them, aside from Green River or whatever that song is called, had potential to at least land Mary in the top 40, maybe top 20, one might have gotten her into the top 10. From there one would hope her next project would've been even better.

[RanRan79]

Who said that no other company would do anything with them? You are assuming too much. I remember Mary was negotiating with several record companies back in the 80s. They could not come to terms with her. Boardwalk did but the owner passed away. Both Peter Stringfellow and Merv Griffin wanted to start recording labels built around Mary Wilson. That story that Motown was just going to drop Mary is just that a story, a conclusion that some people came to. They, Motown had contracted for a second Mary Wilson album with THEIR producers. When Mary went outside for production, that caused a stink! Why do you guys always try to blame Pedro Ferrer when it is clear that you know little to nothing about him? Mary was living in the U.K. at the time of the Gus Dudgeon produced tracks. She met him through Elton John.

Mary Wilson owns the rights to those recordings.
How come? I believe Mary wanted the "Big deal" which made negotiations tough I believe. I will say one more time........I believe.
I also am not sure how far in terms of months and years did Mary's contract with Motown ran in the late 70s/early 80s which also could have prevented her from signing with a different company.

At some point the question has to be asked: just what the fuck was Mary negotiating? It couldn't be the money. Unless they were trying to pay her Primettes money, she was in no position to make many demands. I don't believe any label would've locked Mary in a long term contract, so I doubt if she objected to being contractually obligated to a label long term. How is it that an ex Supreme, one who never had an entire lead vocal on a single, one whose album and accompanying singles flopped hard, one who had been tossed out of her last record label on her ass and even had the masters to her proposed second album thrown at her as she lay in the street, can go into several record labels for negotiations and come out with nothing? Unless of course Mary went up in there acting a damn fool.

Executive: Ms. Wilson we really see potential in you as an artist. We're prepared to offer you a one album deal...

Mary: One album?!

Executive: [[confused) Yes, one album, with an option for more depending on the success of the album...

Mary: Uh uh. I heard Diane has a seven year deal.

Executive: Uh, I believe that's true. But surely you're not suggesting that you...

Mary: I want seven years also. Back when we were the Primettes, we were all equals. We all got the same. So I should have seven years as well. It's only fair.

Executive: [[wants to laugh hysterically but catches himself) Ms. Wilson, that's obviously out of the question. Diana Ross is a major hit recording artist. Your last single received modest airplay in Tupelo, Mississippi...

Mary: Excuse me? "Red Hot" was also very big in Little Rock. I was just there the other day and Little Rock went wild for me. It was like Wilson Mania! All of the press is talking about how I made the Beatles Shea Stadium reception look like a hootenanny. Oh honey, it was too much.

Executive: Well that may be, however, we are just not in a position to offer you anything more than a one album deal.

Mary: [[annoyed) Fine. What about the money?

Executive: You'll get a five thousand dollar signing bonus...

Mary: 20 million.

Executive: Pardon me?

Mary: 20 million. Diane signed her contract and was paid 20 million big ones for seven years. I should get the same...

Executive: [[pushes button on telephone) Send security to my office please.

Mary: [[being ushered out by security) But I have 12 number one hits to my credit! Sure I only sang on 10, but I'm a proven record seller! [[singing) For you...boo hoo...keep me hangin on...whoo-ooo-ooo...tenement slum...[[stops singing) Oh wait, I didn't sing on that one...[[singing) Darling just relax...

[Ollie9]

At some point the question has to be asked: just what the fuck was Mary negotiating? It couldn't be the money. Unless they were trying to pay her Primettes money, she was in no position to make many demands. I don't believe any label would've locked Mary in a long term contract, so I doubt if she objected to being contractually obligated to a label long term. How is it that an ex Supreme, one who never had an entire lead vocal on a single, one whose album and accompanying singles flopped hard, one who had been tossed out of her last record label on her ass and even had the masters to her proposed second album thrown at her as she lay in the street, can go into several record labels for negotiations and come out with nothing? Unless of course Mary went up in there acting a damn fool.

Executive: Ms. Wilson we really see potential in you as an artist. We're prepared to offer you a one album deal...

Mary: One album?!

Executive: [[confused) Yes, one album, with an option for more depending on the success of the album...

Mary: Uh uh. I heard Diane has a seven year deal.

Executive: Uh, I believe that's true. But surely you're not suggesting that you...

Mary: I want seven years also. Back when we were the Primettes, we were all equals. We all got the same. So I should have seven years as well. It's only fair.

Executive: [[wants to laugh hysterically but catches himself) Ms. Wilson, that's obviously out of the question. Diana Ross is a major hit recording artist. Your last single received modest airplay in Tupelo, Mississippi...

Mary: Excuse me? "Red Hot" was also very big in Little Rock. I was just there the other day and Little Rock went wild for me. It was like Wilson Mania! All of the press is talking about how I made the Beatles Shea Stadium reception look like a hootenanny. Oh honey, it was too much.

Executive: Well that may be, however, we are just not in a position to offer you anything more than a one album deal.

Mary: [[annoyed) Fine. What about the money?

Executive: You'll get a five thousand dollar signing bonus...

Mary: 20 million.

Executive: Pardon me?

Mary: 20 million. Diane signed her contract and was paid 20 million big ones for seven years. I should get the same...

Executive: [[pushes button on telephone) Send security to my office please.

Mary: [[being ushered out by security) But I have 12 number one hits to my credit! Sure I only sang on 10, but I'm a proven record seller! [[singing) For you...boo hoo...keep me hangin on...whoo-ooo-ooo...tenement slum...[[stops singing) Oh wait, I didn't sing on that one...[[singing) Darling just relax...

That's cruel.

[RanRan79]

That's cruel.

Wasn't trying to be cruel, just poking a bit of fun. Guess it didn't go over too well. That's what I get for trying to be funny.

Anyway, the question is still on the table: what the hell was there for Mary to negotiate? Unless they were asking for one or more of her children, or unless the label wanted Mary to pay them for signing her, I really can't understand how she could go into so many negotiations and come out with nothing to show for it.

[khansperac]

As talented as Mary may be, she is not a good negotiator.

[BobbyC]

Sup--Mary didn't consult with Motown before hiring an outside producer. She did however charge Motown for the sessions. This, not surprisingly, went over like the proverbial lead zepplin. Motown was long done with Mary at this point anyway. I love these tracks and had Mary had a great support system I believe they would have done some serious business. I am a kid of the 70's and 80's, not the 60's, and I am telling you the style here is what was happening at the time.

[sup_fan]

I too think these tracks were an excellent fit for Mary. plus as disco was fading, this could have easily helped her transition into the 80s with a new sound.

Given the long and strained relationship between Mary and motown during the 70s, it's a bit of a question as to why she'd so blatantly go outside the parameters of her contract. In Sup Faith, she talks about the rough period after leaving the Supremes and how she and Pedro were struggling do to a lack of income. You'd think that if someone was thrown a last-minute life line like she was, that they'd maybe not look to rock the boat quite so quickly.

I realize that motown certainly wasn't without fault when it came to 70s Supremes. But clearly Mary has made MANY foolish decisions when it came to the management of the group and her career. Not surprised that motown was essentially through with her by the end of the decade.

[jobeterob]

Wasn't trying to be cruel, just poking a bit of fun. Guess it didn't go over too well. That's what I get for trying to be funny.

Anyway, the question is still on the table: what the hell was there for Mary to negotiate? Unless they were asking for one or more of her children, or unless the label wanted Mary to pay them for signing her, I really can't understand how she could go into so many negotiations and come out with nothing to show for it.

What you said was also accurately setting out the lay of the land; whether it was read or not is another matter. Given that absolutely nothing ever happened, you would guess that things weren't accurately read or understood.