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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    with the addition of S and S, they should have realized this was a wonderful new opportunity and sound for the group. mary should have recognized the best way for her to shine was a PART of the group. S and S should have been used in writing and production roles.
    Mary did recognize this, that's why Scherrie ended up with most of the leads during that time. At no point does Mary have more leads than Scherrie, I don't think. And in theory, Susaye should've gotten more leads, but seeing how I'm not a fan of her voice- brilliant vocalist as I believe her to be- I'm not mad about this. Susaye definitely should have been given some writing duties. She was already a hit songwriter. Has she ever said this was something she attempted for the Supremes?

    Obviously Mary's abilities as a member of a group vs soloist is subjective, but it's so difficult for me to understand why she is faulted for wanting to try things on her own. At some point grown folks want to break out of the same ole same ole they've been doing since they were 13/14 years old. At what point do you stretch your wings? It was time.

  2. #52
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    Mary was always my favorite Supreme....the eye's made that decision early on.
    I came on board around Love Child/TCB, so Flo was already gone and I am partial to the sweeter less sharp sound of Cindy.
    If the group continued w/o Mary, I would have probably remained a fan...but a much less interested and dedicated one....I am not a fan of stratospheric high pitch voices..they are too cool for me....I like deeper, warmer tones. Scherrie was fine, 90% of Jean's leads I'm good with....there are 1 or 2 cuts on Right On and a few on the Webb LP where she is too shrill for me
    If Susaye had been given more than 2 cuts per LP, I would've dropped off.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    Mary was always my favorite Supreme....the eye's made that decision early on.
    I came on board around Love Child/TCB, so Flo was already gone and I am partial to the sweeter less sharp sound of Cindy.
    If the group continued w/o Mary, I would have probably remained a fan...but a much less interested and dedicated one....I am not a fan of stratospheric high pitch voices..they are too cool for me....I like deeper, warmer tones. Scherrie was fine, 90% of Jean's leads I'm good with....there are 1 or 2 cuts on Right On and a few on the Webb LP where she is too shrill for me
    If Susaye had been given more than 2 cuts per LP, I would've dropped off.
    Your taste is a lot like mine in regards to high voices. It's crazy that Diana and Jean have ended up among my absolute favorite singers of all time, despite their high singing. [[Deniece Williams is another one.) I like the song "High Energy" and probably would have regardless of who sung it. I never listen to "Come Into My Life" and I really do believe that Susaye's mix with Mary and Scherrie was what threw the Supremes overboard. Scherrie was a ready made lead singer, Mary was coming into her own as a lead singer, they did not need a third lead singer, especially one who believed- and rightfully so- that she should not have to play backup singer to anybody. So the result on stage was three lead singers competing for the lead, even in harmony. Susaye may have fared better pursuing a solo deal while a non lead singer was brought in to take Cindy's spot, Cindy herself being a non lead singer.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Your taste is a lot like mine in regards to high voices. It's crazy that Diana and Jean have ended up among my absolute favorite singers of all time, despite their high singing. [[Deniece Williams is another one.) I like the song "High Energy" and probably would have regardless of who sung it. I never listen to "Come Into My Life" and I really do believe that Susaye's mix with Mary and Scherrie was what threw the Supremes overboard. Scherrie was a ready made lead singer, Mary was coming into her own as a lead singer, they did not need a third lead singer, especially one who believed- and rightfully so- that she should not have to play backup singer to anybody. So the result on stage was three lead singers competing for the lead, even in harmony. Susaye may have fared better pursuing a solo deal while a non lead singer was brought in to take Cindy's spot, Cindy herself being a non lead singer.
    thank you..I just happen to like deeper warmer voices...Patsy Cline Connie Francis, Dusty, Dottie West...Chrissie Hynde, Joplin...contralto types...Love all the Pointers...Anita is smooth, June's sharp, and Ruth is MUCH huskier than Mary!

  5. #55
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    I think what caused the demise was they got stuck with a dated image of glamour that the couldn’t manage their way out of; Labelle had 3 lead singers and hit their stride in the 70’s. It was the era of the singer songwriter and the Supremes were dated.

    They had a chance at change especially with Susaye but there was no way Mary and Pedro would allow that

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    thank you..I just happen to like deeper warmer voices...Patsy Cline Connie Francis, Dusty, Dottie West...Chrissie Hynde, Joplin...contralto types...Love all the Pointers...Anita is smooth, June's sharp, and Ruth is MUCH huskier than Mary!
    I dig Patsy, and Dusty really did have a very nice voice. Don't get me started on the Pointers. They are right behind the Supremes in terms of my favorite female groups, I think. And I love every last one of their voices, but especially Ruth's. There is a certain warmth to voices like these that I usually don't find in higher voices.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    I think what caused the demise was they got stuck with a dated image of glamour that the couldn’t manage their way out of; Labelle had 3 lead singers and hit their stride in the 70’s. It was the era of the singer songwriter and the Supremes were dated.

    They had a chance at change especially with Susaye but there was no way Mary and Pedro would allow that
    Labelle had also been together for eons and learned how to play their positions. [[Although there were times when Patti was all over the place.) The three original Supremes were all lead singers also, but there was never a time where they refused to blend or play the part they were given in any song. MSS was all over the place, each lady always seemed to be trying to be heard over the other two, even in the background. And as a result, IMO, it comes across like a bunch of noise, so it's not hard for me to imagine that audiences that were subjected to this in real time would've been largely put off.

    As I was reminded in a thread not long ago, we have to keep in mind that where decisions were concerned, by 1976 Mary was a victim of domestic violence. This lady was getting beat up by this nut for something as simple as refusing to take his brother to see Al Green. So we can't pretend that whatever Mary said went. Pedro was running that show. Not to say Mary didn't agree with certain decisions. The following passage in Supreme Faith [[page 158) explains a lot:

    "Pedro insisted I be given more leads, which created a degree of tension. Some people saw this as me just flexing my ego, but it was a matter of survival. I finally accepted the responsibility to prepare myself for future personnel changes and possibly the end of the group. After all my years in the Supremes, I was still the least known of the originals. Record buyers and club-goers assumed there were no original Supremes left...As I prepared to sing my leads, Scherrie grew very quiet, and Cindy acted strangely. We'd rehearsed for days, but wouldn't you know it, once in the studio I lost my voice! It as totally psychological; I was scared to death and felt guilty taking leads meant for Scherrie. I wasn't ready to really step out as a full lead singer."

    While I often criticize Mary for always taking the safe route instead of the risks, there is something to be said about her will to just survive. Everything she had been doing since the Flo years of the group was about Mary surviving. She was always trying to figure out a way to keep her spot in the group, and then when it became clear that a day might come where there is no group, there had to be a plan in place to survive. Whether she had anything to do with that on her own, or if it was Pedro in her ear hoping to secure his own meal ticket in the event the group fizzled, it was still the best plan for Mary at that point.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Your taste is a lot like mine in regards to high voices. It's crazy that Diana and Jean have ended up among my absolute favorite singers of all time, despite their high singing. [[Deniece Williams is another one.) I like the song "High Energy" and probably would have regardless of who sung it. I never listen to "Come Into My Life" and I really do believe that Susaye's mix with Mary and Scherrie was what threw the Supremes overboard. Scherrie was a ready made lead singer, Mary was coming into her own as a lead singer, they did not need a third lead singer, especially one who believed- and rightfully so- that she should not have to play backup singer to anybody. So the result on stage was three lead singers competing for the lead, even in harmony. Susaye may have fared better pursuing a solo deal while a non lead singer was brought in to take Cindy's spot, Cindy herself being a non lead singer.
    If you go through youtube, you'll find a few older videos of Susaye as a Raylette. The group sounds lovely and the singers are blending.

    While i agree that the live clips of MSS are a mess, i don't know that it's as simple as just saying it was 3 lead singers competing against one another.

    The problem was the group wasn't being managed to control for such things. Mary's mic was always turned up too high, the staging was a disaster. their approach to live singing was what was the problem.

    When they did My World Is Empty, it was stellar as the vocal parts were kept in line. Susaye and mary had gorgeous harmonies and backed up Scherrie very well

    Then listen to Let Yourself Go. on the record, there's an echo effect on the word "go" which makes it ring. they couldn't do this live so that's why the girls are all shouting out "go" all over the place. horrible decision. Also the choreography was so demanding that they out of breath.

    Whomever was managing the group should have had the ear and the authority to edit some of this. There are times when Susaye is doing too much ad libbing - so a manager should have been able to say "pull it back." The manager should have worked with the arrange and conductor to improve the live renditions.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Mary did recognize this, that's why Scherrie ended up with most of the leads during that time. At no point does Mary have more leads than Scherrie, I don't think. And in theory, Susaye should've gotten more leads, but seeing how I'm not a fan of her voice- brilliant vocalist as I believe her to be- I'm not mad about this. Susaye definitely should have been given some writing duties. She was already a hit songwriter. Has she ever said this was something she attempted for the Supremes?

    Obviously Mary's abilities as a member of a group vs soloist is subjective, but it's so difficult for me to understand why she is faulted for wanting to try things on her own. At some point grown folks want to break out of the same ole same ole they've been doing since they were 13/14 years old. At what point do you stretch your wings? It was time.
    i certainly do not begrudge Mary for wanting to experiment and try things out. nothing wrong with that. Clearly Diana benefited from that in the early days. But that doesn't mean that content should be released.

    If they'd stuck with more of a pop formula [[like the Ivey/Woodford tracks on Sup 75), there very well could have been more of mary to do. You Turn Me Around is a lovely ballad. and, with testing and learning, she could have maybe done more with the standard pop tunes. But we do have her on leads for Give out and while it's nice enough, it pales compared to the Scherrie lead. and the 3lead version of Sha La is also fine enough but the full scherrie lead really is best. IMO

    once the girls really focused on a more hard-core disco sound, scherrie was rightly doing the leads.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    If you go through youtube, you'll find a few older videos of Susaye as a Raylette. The group sounds lovely and the singers are blending.

    While i agree that the live clips of MSS are a mess, i don't know that it's as simple as just saying it was 3 lead singers competing against one another.

    The problem was the group wasn't being managed to control for such things. Mary's mic was always turned up too high, the staging was a disaster. their approach to live singing was what was the problem.

    When they did My World Is Empty, it was stellar as the vocal parts were kept in line. Susaye and mary had gorgeous harmonies and backed up Scherrie very well

    Then listen to Let Yourself Go. on the record, there's an echo effect on the word "go" which makes it ring. they couldn't do this live so that's why the girls are all shouting out "go" all over the place. horrible decision. Also the choreography was so demanding that they out of breath.

    Whomever was managing the group should have had the ear and the authority to edit some of this. There are times when Susaye is doing too much ad libbing - so a manager should have been able to say "pull it back." The manager should have worked with the arrange and conductor to improve the live renditions.
    They absolutely needed a qualified manager. Definitely in agreement there. But Mary was a 15+ year veteran of the business, her talent at harmony very much respected by those she had worked with; the Supremes were not Scherrie's first rodeo when it came to a group; and Susaye, as you point out, was a member of the Raylettes, itself an institution. Manager or no manager, there was no excuse for the way they came across live and no explanation other than they went on stage and each lady said "fuck them, I will be heard tonight!".

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i certainly do not begrudge Mary for wanting to experiment and try things out. nothing wrong with that. Clearly Diana benefited from that in the early days. But that doesn't mean that content should be released.

    If they'd stuck with more of a pop formula [[like the Ivey/Woodford tracks on Sup 75), there very well could have been more of mary to do. You Turn Me Around is a lovely ballad. and, with testing and learning, she could have maybe done more with the standard pop tunes. But we do have her on leads for Give out and while it's nice enough, it pales compared to the Scherrie lead. and the 3lead version of Sha La is also fine enough but the full scherrie lead really is best. IMO

    once the girls really focused on a more hard-core disco sound, scherrie was rightly doing the leads.
    We will always be in agreement that Mary's forte was not disco. But I'm of the opinion that the Supremes shouldn't have been doing disco in the first place. I get why, as it was increasingly being the go to genre if you wanted to make some noise, but that wasn't the place for the Supremes. They should have been doing stuff like the Emotions, maybe even the Pointers. The group HOT also had a number of tunes that were in line for what I think the Supremes should've been doing. "Heart Walking" managed to make some noise, and who knows how far it might have gotten with more of a push from Motown. But aside from "He's My Man" and "High Energy", Scherrie was the lead singer on singles and the group's songs still did nothing.

    "Sha La Bandit"...I'm of the opposite opinion here. I don't care for Scherrie's full lead versions, but I love the shared lead version and Scherrie's verse is my fav. Go figure that.

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    Imagine Patti Susaye and Lynda in the same trio??? that would surely be a scream fest

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    Imagine Patti Susaye and Lynda in the same trio??? that would surely be a scream fest
    And the Supremes were never about screaming and shrieking - well, not other than when Mary wasn't happy with Motown 25 or RTL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    And the Supremes were never about screaming and shrieking - well, not other than when Mary wasn't happy with Motown 25 or RTL.
    Oh, you cheeky man, you

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    Imagine Patti Susaye and Lynda in the same trio??? that would surely be a scream fest
    Oh God no!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    They absolutely needed a qualified manager. Definitely in agreement there. But Mary was a 15+ year veteran of the business, her talent at harmony very much respected by those she had worked with; the Supremes were not Scherrie's first rodeo when it came to a group; and Susaye, as you point out, was a member of the Raylettes, itself an institution. Manager or no manager, there was no excuse for the way they came across live and no explanation other than they went on stage and each lady said "fuck them, I will be heard tonight!".
    haha - no i completely agree with you on that too. I'm not sure why there was so much ad libbing and all. were they trying to prove to everyone they were all powerhouse singers?

    I'm assuming that back in the day, Berry would have given very specific and detailed notes/feedback on performances. If one of the girls ad libbed something or adding too much, i'm sure he put a stop to it. Also back in the day, the girls would want clips of themselves to see what did or didn't work. and of course Gil, Maurice, Cholly and others were there to advise them too.

    I also thought that the girls did too much 3-part harmony. sort of hard to believe i'm saying that but i do think it. not every single song needs to be 100% 3-part harmony. especially when they're singing the same words. it can get muddy and blurred. Like on some of The Way We Were, the vocals are messy. especially that idiotic "ooo,oooo,oooo" part towards the end. They needed better arrangements

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    haha - no i completely agree with you on that too. I'm not sure why there was so much ad libbing and all. were they trying to prove to everyone they were all powerhouse singers?

    I'm assuming that back in the day, Berry would have given very specific and detailed notes/feedback on performances. If one of the girls ad libbed something or adding too much, i'm sure he put a stop to it. Also back in the day, the girls would want clips of themselves to see what did or didn't work. and of course Gil, Maurice, Cholly and others were there to advise them too.
    Agreed. The 60s Supremes were tightly managed and directed. While Gordy was at the head, there were many people playing positions on the Supremes team. There was obviously none of that in the 70s. It begs the question: what if Gordy had never "washed his hands" and had given the 70s Supremes as much focus as he did the 60s version? Certainly the group would've been a different live act. Gordy would've never allowed what eventually happened on stage to happen under his watch. But would it have meant more hits? Better quality music? I insist that the 70s Supremes recorded some really great stuff, especially with Jean, whose inclusion on any song is- to me- like the points you get on a test for even spelling your name correctly. It's just an automatic plus. However, when I listen to their music- singles and albums- alongside other female groups of the day, there's something lacking in most of what the Supremes recorded. There's a warmth in the overall production that I find lacking. That's the best way I can describe it. I wonder if Gordy would've saw to it that they move in a different sound direction.

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    I'm not a big fan of the last line ups live work....but perhaps they were going for what a lot of people say they should have [[Labelle, Emotions, Pointers)....bring up all 3 voices, looser structure...like Labelle. Nona and Sarah knew how to pull back and as a trio had years of experience singing together....MSS lacked the time and familiarity. I wasn't aware of Labelle's music other than Lady Marmalade... I was however familiar with some of Nona's mid 80's solo work [[I Sweat, Why Should I Cry?) a rock station played The Revolution and Can I Speak to You one night, and I decided to get a best of CD....I like it a lot. The Emotions I never cared for...harmony always seemed too high pitched for me...Pointers? I had Steppin' and loved it...the long Betcha Got A Chick and a great Duke Ellington medley...the Pointers had rock cred for covering Bruce's FIRE, and later had the advantage of massive MTV video exposure....the 70's Supremes were too early to benefit from cleverly staged studio track videos

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    maybe the group just got stale. someone just posted reviews of Diana's major productions in 76 and 78. and of course most of us have seen the 79 Boss tour video at Caesar's. not only was each one a massive production, but there's considerable variety in the content and what she's doing. clearly she sat down with the director and brainstormed ideas - the movie images on her caftan, the mimes and dancers, the lifestages in Evening with [[the focus on black female pioneers, the motown segment, then motherhood and The Point).

    of course the supremes couldn't copy this but they needed something new and different. I have a bunch of bootlegs of their jean shows and, while they're enjoyable, they're frankly not all that different from one another. nor are they radically different from the shows when Diana was around.

    As a solo act, Diana certainly had the flexibility to shift, change and explore new things. perhaps the group framework makes that much more challenging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    maybe the group just got stale. someone just posted reviews of Diana's major productions in 76 and 78. and of course most of us have seen the 79 Boss tour video at Caesar's. not only was each one a massive production, but there's considerable variety in the content and what she's doing. clearly she sat down with the director and brainstormed ideas - the movie images on her caftan, the mimes and dancers, the lifestages in Evening with [[the focus on black female pioneers, the motown segment, then motherhood and The Point).

    of course the supremes couldn't copy this but they needed something new and different. I have a bunch of bootlegs of their jean shows and, while they're enjoyable, they're frankly not all that different from one another. nor are they radically different from the shows when Diana was around.

    As a solo act, Diana certainly had the flexibility to shift, change and explore new things. perhaps the group framework makes that much more challenging.
    Diana Ross also had the financial backing from Motown to invest in her new act. The Supremes and other Motown artists did not! You never seem to want to own up to that fact.

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    Berry invested some of his own money in Lady but the rest would have been recouped for motown against royalties. they didn't simply invest money in DR without being paid back. Sure, those funds would have helped develop a new concept and the Sups didn't have that. But the money used to develop the DR shows wasn't a gift. She paid that back. Similar to how motown invested in the J5 tours and Commodores too.

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    i've now completed the chart listings through Bad Weather.

    some insights to share:

    BW spent 14 weeks on the charts, if you include the "Bubbling Under" listings. it only reached 87 on the Top 100 and was only in the Top 100 for 1 week. but all these other weeks it sat around 101, 103, 108. it's like it was just stuck there. The girls performed it on Soul Train on 5/12, Bob Hope on 4/19 and then whenever the Kate Smith special was. it also got a full-page Billboard ad

    speaking of the billboard ads, they were rather hit/miss after the initial ones. There were multiple ads for Stoned and NW. Nathan got one as did River and Everybody, which also included a plug for RO lp. I Guess Miss Man got a full page ad but none of the FJ songs nor lp got one. There were ads promoting FJ along with other Motown lps.

    there was ton of promotion around Lady, no surprise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i've now completed the chart listings through Bad Weather.

    some insights to share:

    BW spent 14 weeks on the charts, if you include the "Bubbling Under" listings. it only reached 87 on the Top 100 and was only in the Top 100 for 1 week. but all these other weeks it sat around 101, 103, 108. it's like it was just stuck there. The girls performed it on Soul Train on 5/12, Bob Hope on 4/19 and then whenever the Kate Smith special was. it also got a full-page Billboard ad
    From what I've found on-line, The Kate Smith special was syndicated in June of 1973. Considering the single was released in March, it seems that by the time that show aired, it was too late to do the single any good. But 14 weeks on the chart also seems a long time for a single that didn't hit. There must have been some interest but they couldn't quite break out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i've now completed the chart listings through Bad Weather.

    some insights to share:

    BW spent 14 weeks on the charts, if you include the "Bubbling Under" listings. it only reached 87 on the Top 100 and was only in the Top 100 for 1 week. but all these other weeks it sat around 101, 103, 108. it's like it was just stuck there. The girls performed it on Soul Train on 5/12, Bob Hope on 4/19 and then whenever the Kate Smith special was. it also got a full-page Billboard ad

    speaking of the billboard ads, they were rather hit/miss after the initial ones. There were multiple ads for Stoned and NW. Nathan got one as did River and Everybody, which also included a plug for RO lp. I Guess Miss Man got a full page ad but none of the FJ songs nor lp got one. There were ads promoting FJ along with other Motown lps.

    there was ton of promotion around Lady, no surprise.
    I fear that at Motown, in the seventies, they were lost with promoting artists. Not just the Supremes but Diana Ross as well.

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    SUPREMES
    Royal Hawaiian, Falls Church, Va.


    “High Energy” is not only the name of the Supremes’ latest Motown album—it also serves to describe the voltage of their present stage show as well.

    The group's April 24 set here was significant in that it marked the debut of the newest Supreme, Susay Greene, former member of Stevie Wonder's back-up group Wonderlove.
    While Greene's stature is petite, her talent proves to be enormous, and her vocal range very wade. Her lead vocal on “Long And Winding Road/He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother” drew several ovations.
    Mary Wilson's supremacy as songstress remains evident with each tune that she caresses.
    Her “Don't Let My Teardrops Bother you” from the new LP is a perfect showcase for her distinctive vocal style. Wilson also delivers a standout solo on "Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get?”
    The entire act is fresher and tighter than
    ever, especially on the bright uptempo sound of “I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking” which is already on national disco charts. The song allows Scherrie Payne to cut loose with full-throttle wattage on the lead, while Wilson and Greene deliver the driving choral work that the group is famous for.
    The concept of the Supremes in their present form is no longer a single lead and two back-ground singers; rather three unique ladies who shine as soloists as well as a team. Previous gold including “Stoned Love,” “Someday We'll Be Together,” “Stop In The Name Of Love” were delivered with alternating leads and updated arrangements that put the set's emphasis on the present strength of the triad, rather than on that of past glory.
    Embellishments including many costume changes and clever bits of choreographed material by Geoffrey Holder, who directed Broadway's “The Wiz" help give the show a theatrical flair throughout.

    MARK BEGO - Billboard May 8,1976

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albator View Post
    I fear that at Motown, in the seventies, they were lost with promoting artists. Not just the Supremes but Diana Ross as well.
    i agree. Between the move to LA and their trying to break into movies/Hollywood, it's clear that the music side of things faltered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albator View Post
    SUPREMES
    Royal Hawaiian, Falls Church, Va.


    “High Energy” is not only the name of the Supremes’ latest Motown album—it also serves to describe the voltage of their present stage show as well.

    The group's April 24 set here was significant in that it marked the debut of the newest Supreme, Susay Greene, former member of Stevie Wonder's back-up group Wonderlove.
    While Greene's stature is petite, her talent proves to be enormous, and her vocal range very wade. Her lead vocal on “Long And Winding Road/He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother” drew several ovations.
    Mary Wilson's supremacy as songstress remains evident with each tune that she caresses.
    Her “Don't Let My Teardrops Bother you” from the new LP is a perfect showcase for her distinctive vocal style. Wilson also delivers a standout solo on "Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get?”
    The entire act is fresher and tighter than
    ever, especially on the bright uptempo sound of “I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking” which is already on national disco charts. The song allows Scherrie Payne to cut loose with full-throttle wattage on the lead, while Wilson and Greene deliver the driving choral work that the group is famous for.
    The concept of the Supremes in their present form is no longer a single lead and two back-ground singers; rather three unique ladies who shine as soloists as well as a team. Previous gold including “Stoned Love,” “Someday We'll Be Together,” “Stop In The Name Of Love” were delivered with alternating leads and updated arrangements that put the set's emphasis on the present strength of the triad, rather than on that of past glory.
    Embellishments including many costume changes and clever bits of choreographed material by Geoffrey Holder, who directed Broadway's “The Wiz" help give the show a theatrical flair throughout.

    MARK BEGO - Billboard May 8,1976
    You see who wrote that review right? I don't trust that man.

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    true. Mark's devotion to Mary certainly doesn't make him an unbiased source. Still it is good that he got some additional publicity into Billboard

    Also i never knew Susaye [[or any of the women for that matter) did Long Winding Road live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    true. Mark's devotion to Mary certainly doesn't make him an unbiased source. Still it is good that he got some additional publicity into Billboard

    Also i never knew Susaye [[or any of the women for that matter) did Long Winding Road live.
    I wonder if that is just a mistake. Susaye had a solo with HE AIN'T HEAVY, HE'S MY BROTHER. The first line of that song is "The road is long with many a winding turn..." Bego might have been confused by that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Diana Ross also had the financial backing from Motown to invest in her new act. The Supremes and other Motown artists did not! You never seem to want to own up to that fact.
    The Supremes after 1970 never made enough money to be able to repay any investment in them by anyone - that’s why neither they nor Mary ever landed another recording contract

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    I wonder if that is just a mistake. Susaye had a solo with HE AIN'T HEAVY, HE'S MY BROTHER. The first line of that song is "The road is long with many a winding turn..." Bego might have been confused by that.
    That is the most likely explanation reese. Bego is hardly renowned as a reliable and trustworthy source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Berry invested some of his own money in Lady but the rest would have been recouped for motown against royalties. they didn't simply invest money in DR without being paid back. Sure, those funds would have helped develop a new concept and the Sups didn't have that. But the money used to develop the DR shows wasn't a gift. She paid that back. Similar to how motown invested in the J5 tours and Commodores too.
    That is not true! Berry Gordy has said out of his own mouth that he never broke even on Diana Ross recordings and that he did what he did out of love. He went on to say that recording Diana Ross was very costly. Now what he meant by that......I do not know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i've now completed the chart listings through Bad Weather.

    some insights to share:

    BW spent 14 weeks on the charts, if you include the "Bubbling Under" listings. it only reached 87 on the Top 100 and was only in the Top 100 for 1 week. but all these other weeks it sat around 101, 103, 108. it's like it was just stuck there. The girls performed it on Soul Train on 5/12, Bob Hope on 4/19 and then whenever the Kate Smith special was. it also got a full-page Billboard ad

    speaking of the billboard ads, they were rather hit/miss after the initial ones. There were multiple ads for Stoned and NW. Nathan got one as did River and Everybody, which also included a plug for RO lp. I Guess Miss Man got a full page ad but none of the FJ songs nor lp got one. There were ads promoting FJ along with other Motown lps.

    there was ton of promotion around Lady, no surprise.
    The truth is kids, teenagers and the general record-buying public do not read Billboard magazine. It is an industry/trade publication, so any ads place in it, most people in the general population would never see them. The Supremes did their part to promote "Bad Weather", but it was nearly impossible to find a copy of the record in stores at that time. Also, when you would call your local radio station to request it, they would tell you that they never got the record from Motown. This happened all over the country at that time. The fans were very frustrated over it and the Supremes were of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    I'm not a big fan of the last line ups live work....but perhaps they were going for what a lot of people say they should have [[Labelle, Emotions, Pointers)....bring up all 3 voices, looser structure...like Labelle. Nona and Sarah knew how to pull back and as a trio had years of experience singing together....MSS lacked the time and familiarity. I wasn't aware of Labelle's music other than Lady Marmalade... I was however familiar with some of Nona's mid 80's solo work [[I Sweat, Why Should I Cry?) a rock station played The Revolution and Can I Speak to You one night, and I decided to get a best of CD....I like it a lot. The Emotions I never cared for...harmony always seemed too high pitched for me...Pointers? I had Steppin' and loved it...the long Betcha Got A Chick and a great Duke Ellington medley...the Pointers had rock cred for covering Bruce's FIRE, and later had the advantage of massive MTV video exposure....the 70's Supremes were too early to benefit from cleverly staged studio track videos
    Gman, very good observations. Had the Supremes continued on into the 80s I am sure they would have produced some great music videos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    The truth is kids, teenagers and the general record-buying public do not read Billboard magazine. It is an industry/trade publication, so any ads place in it, most people in the general population would never see them. The Supremes did their part to promote "Bad Weather", but it was nearly impossible to find a copy of the record in stores at that time. Also, when you would call your local radio station to request it, they would tell you that they never got the record from Motown. This happened all over the country at that time. The fans were very frustrated over it and the Supremes were of course.
    true - Billboard was not intended to draw interest from kids. it was intended to market to djs, station programmers, record store buyers, etc. Frankly that might be MORE important that marketing to the kids. if the radio played it, it would have been more likely to then generate call-in requests and then kids go buy the record. That's also why the girls did so many stops at key radio stations and at industry conventions. they were superstars and using that to pay favors to the djs and jocks. Do an interview on THEIR show, butter them up. which would hopefully, in turn, get the djs to play their music.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    That is not true! Berry Gordy has said out of his own mouth that he never broke even on Diana Ross recordings and that he did what he did out of love. He went on to say that recording Diana Ross was very costly. Now what he meant by that......I do not know.
    it is true that Berry personally invested his own money into Diana's movies. And i'm sure there there times throughout her career where he personally paid for this to help build up the image and star appeal

    but as for the ongoing P/L of the ACT called Diana Ross, who knows what the final breakeven was. she was certainly an expensive act - huge shows, lots of recordings, tours. and she had huge hit records and she had flops. She also added "cache" to the label by being a mega star, for whatever that's worth. This is also why Berry couldn't and wouldn't attempt to match RCA's offer in 81. i'm guessing he knew that the return on that type of investment probably wouldn't pay out. i doubt it would have been a NEGATIVE return but odds are maybe a little over 1:1 or maybe 2:1, which still isn't a great return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    it is true that Berry personally invested his own money into Diana's movies. And i'm sure there there times throughout her career where he personally paid for this to help build up the image and star appeal

    but as for the ongoing P/L of the ACT called Diana Ross, who knows what the final breakeven was. she was certainly an expensive act - huge shows, lots of recordings, tours. and she had huge hit records and she had flops. She also added "cache" to the label by being a mega star, for whatever that's worth. This is also why Berry couldn't and wouldn't attempt to match RCA's offer in 81. i'm guessing he knew that the return on that type of investment probably wouldn't pay out. i doubt it would have been a NEGATIVE return but odds are maybe a little over 1:1 or maybe 2:1, which still isn't a great return.
    He said that he did not make his money back off of Diana Ross' career which is why he tried to take back everything the company had "loaned" her when she left for RCA! He took the house, the rolls, the furs, the jewelry etc,etc,etc. That is what I am saying. I did not say he did not invest his own money into her movies. It was ALL his own money!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albator View Post
    SUPREMES
    Royal Hawaiian, Falls Church, Va.


    “High Energy” is not only the name of the Supremes’ latest Motown album—it also serves to describe the voltage of their present stage show as well.

    The group's April 24 set here was significant in that it marked the debut of the newest Supreme, Susay Greene, former member of Stevie Wonder's back-up group Wonderlove.
    While Greene's stature is petite, her talent proves to be enormous, and her vocal range very wade. Her lead vocal on “Long And Winding Road/He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother” drew several ovations.
    Mary Wilson's supremacy as songstress remains evident with each tune that she caresses.
    Her “Don't Let My Teardrops Bother you” from the new LP is a perfect showcase for her distinctive vocal style. Wilson also delivers a standout solo on "Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get?”
    The entire act is fresher and tighter than
    ever, especially on the bright uptempo sound of “I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking” which is already on national disco charts. The song allows Scherrie Payne to cut loose with full-throttle wattage on the lead, while Wilson and Greene deliver the driving choral work that the group is famous for.
    The concept of the Supremes in their present form is no longer a single lead and two back-ground singers; rather three unique ladies who shine as soloists as well as a team. Previous gold including “Stoned Love,” “Someday We'll Be Together,” “Stop In The Name Of Love” were delivered with alternating leads and updated arrangements that put the set's emphasis on the present strength of the triad, rather than on that of past glory.
    Embellishments including many costume changes and clever bits of choreographed material by Geoffrey Holder, who directed Broadway's “The Wiz" help give the show a theatrical flair throughout.

    MARK BEGO - Billboard May 8,1976
    I was so into this review, especially the compliments to Mary, until I reached the end. Mark Bego is almost as unreliable as Tony Turner. Almost. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't even at this particular gig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    I'm not a big fan of the last line ups live work....but perhaps they were going for what a lot of people say they should have [[Labelle, Emotions, Pointers)....bring up all 3 voices, looser structure...like Labelle. Nona and Sarah knew how to pull back and as a trio had years of experience singing together....MSS lacked the time and familiarity. I wasn't aware of Labelle's music other than Lady Marmalade... I was however familiar with some of Nona's mid 80's solo work [[I Sweat, Why Should I Cry?) a rock station played The Revolution and Can I Speak to You one night, and I decided to get a best of CD....I like it a lot. The Emotions I never cared for...harmony always seemed too high pitched for me...Pointers? I had Steppin' and loved it...the long Betcha Got A Chick and a great Duke Ellington medley...the Pointers had rock cred for covering Bruce's FIRE, and later had the advantage of massive MTV video exposure....the 70's Supremes were too early to benefit from cleverly staged studio track videos
    I imagine that if the MTV age of video had come a decade earlier, there would've been quite a few resurgences of popularity for some artists. Of course this is imagining an MTV of the 70s that embraced Black artists, which we know it took them a couple years to do in the 80s. I envision some entertaining music videos for "Floy Joy", "Bad Weather", and "Let My Heart Do the Walking".

    Those groups you cited all had the benefit of singing together for years. Perhaps Flo, Diana and Mary could've had this type of group, but MSS were together only a minute. They couldn't pull it off on stage. Now in the studio, apparently the producers managed them very well. I may not be a fan of all of the songs during this period, but there's no denying that they come across harmoniously and definitely prove that vocally they were as good as the groups you mentioned...in the recording studio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    true - Billboard was not intended to draw interest from kids. it was intended to market to djs, station programmers, record store buyers, etc. Frankly that might be MORE important that marketing to the kids. if the radio played it, it would have been more likely to then generate call-in requests and then kids go buy the record. That's also why the girls did so many stops at key radio stations and at industry conventions. they were superstars and using that to pay favors to the djs and jocks. Do an interview on THEIR show, butter them up. which would hopefully, in turn, get the djs to play their music.
    DJ's in most major cities did not play it at time because Motown never issued them the promo DJ/radio station copies. I remember the campaign the Supremes Fan Club had at the time where members around the country were instructed to call into their local stations to request it [[Bad Weather). Everyone that reported back had the same story. The radio stations had never received the record from Motown. The only way we actually heard the song was from the Supremes television appearances. So the DJ's could not help in this situation and the public couldn't go out and buy it even after hearing the song on TV!

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    He said that he did not make his money back off of Diana Ross' career which is why he tried to take back everything the company had "loaned" her when she left for RCA! He took the house, the rolls, the furs, the jewelry etc,etc,etc. That is what I am saying. I did not say he did not invest his own money into her movies. It was ALL his own money!
    I'm sure I'm wasting my breath by asking you to source this, so I'll skip that part and go directly to calling bullshit on the claim. Whether you made it up or Gordy actually said it, it's ridiculous. Firstly, I'm not trusting the mouth of the man that screwed so many artists out of their money. He's the last one I'm going to trust to tell me he lost money on any artist, let alone one as huge as Diana Ross. Maybe he lost it gambling, but he didn't lose it on her. [[Maybe he lost some with The Wiz, I'll give him that.) The premise of the "Gordy didn't make any money off of Diana Ross' career" hinges on someone believing that Gordy was basically paying for Diana Ross to parade around the globe and getting nothing in return. If Diana's tours weren't making money, those shows would've never been as big and grand as they were. The money that was put into those shows were recouped and then some. Even Berry Gordy isn't such an idiot businessman that he would put 10,000 dollars into a show only to get back 1,000 dollars and then turn around and do it every year for four or five years. The only reason why those shows were so big and costly is because Gordy knew he'd get back a return on his investment, which he did. Had he not, those shows would've been scaled back to the pre-1976 level. And you better believe that when an artist isn't a true moneymaker, people in the business know it. RCA knew it, that's why they paid the lady all those millions. And when she eventually fell on her face and went back to Motown, Motown knew she wasn't worth what she used to be worth and they paid her that way. Gordy didn't do anything for anybody at Motown unless his bank statement amounts increased.

    I swear sometimes the stuff I read around here leads me to believe that folks expect everybody to be idiots. I'm too smart to fall for this nonsense. Gordy didn't make any money off of Diana Ross, my ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    DJ's in most major cities did not play it at time because Motown never issued them the promo DJ/radio station copies. I remember the campaign the Supremes Fan Club had at the time where members around the country were instructed to call into their local stations to request it [[Bad Weather). Everyone that reported back had the same story. The radio stations had never received the record from Motown. The only way we actually heard the song was from the Supremes television appearances. So the DJ's could not help in this situation and the public couldn't go out and buy it even after hearing the song on TV!
    Somebody somewhere was playing it on the radio in order for it to be on the charts for 14 weeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    DJ's in most major cities did not play it at time because Motown never issued them the promo DJ/radio station copies. I remember the campaign the Supremes Fan Club had at the time where members around the country were instructed to call into their local stations to request it [[Bad Weather). Everyone that reported back had the same story. The radio stations had never received the record from Motown. The only way we actually heard the song was from the Supremes television appearances. So the DJ's could not help in this situation and the public couldn't go out and buy it even after hearing the song on TV!
    I've heard that too but if you go to oldies record store and collectables, there are always tons of sup promo 45s with the white labels. I don't know that it was an issue that the record wasn't sent out as clearly there are tons of these kicking around today. But rather it was that the act was out of date and out of touch with the programmers are the radio stations. the stations probably rolled their eyes at another silly Sups record and didn't care. or didn't keep it around or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I'm sure I'm wasting my breath by asking you to source this, so I'll skip that part and go directly to calling bullshit on the claim. Whether you made it up or Gordy actually said it, it's ridiculous. Firstly, I'm not trusting the mouth of the man that screwed so many artists out of their money. He's the last one I'm going to trust to tell me he lost money on any artist, let alone one as huge as Diana Ross. Maybe he lost it gambling, but he didn't lose it on her. [[Maybe he lost some with The Wiz, I'll give him that.) The premise of the "Gordy didn't make any money off of Diana Ross' career" hinges on someone believing that Gordy was basically paying for Diana Ross to parade around the globe and getting nothing in return. If Diana's tours weren't making money, those shows would've never been as big and grand as they were. The money that was put into those shows were recouped and then some. Even Berry Gordy isn't such an idiot businessman that he would put 10,000 dollars into a show only to get back 1,000 dollars and then turn around and do it every year for four or five years. The only reason why those shows were so big and costly is because Gordy knew he'd get back a return on his investment, which he did. Had he not, those shows would've been scaled back to the pre-1976 level. And you better believe that when an artist isn't a true moneymaker, people in the business know it. RCA knew it, that's why they paid the lady all those millions. And when she eventually fell on her face and went back to Motown, Motown knew she wasn't worth what she used to be worth and they paid her that way. Gordy didn't do anything for anybody at Motown unless his bank statement amounts increased.

    I swear sometimes the stuff I read around here leads me to believe that folks expect everybody to be idiots. I'm too smart to fall for this nonsense. Gordy didn't make any money off of Diana Ross, my ass.
    hahahha - love ya Ran buddy!

    and given that the intimate, personal relationship between Ross and Gordy was pretty much over by end of 1970, after that she was pretty much another employee

    I'd assume that, like any business, they'd continue with a strategy [[such as mega shows) until that started to wane. her 1980 show is a radical departure. maybe after the hugeness of the Boss tour [[and maybe it not making huge money), they decided a new approach was necessary

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    hahahha - love ya Ran buddy!

    and given that the intimate, personal relationship between Ross and Gordy was pretty much over by end of 1970, after that she was pretty much another employee

    I'd assume that, like any business, they'd continue with a strategy [[such as mega shows) until that started to wane. her 1980 show is a radical departure. maybe after the hugeness of the Boss tour [[and maybe it not making huge money), they decided a new approach was necessary
    In CALL HER MISS ROSS, J. Randy wrote that Diana was originally under the impression that Motown was helping with the costs of TOUR '79 but they were not. This was at the time that she had formed her own company, DIANA ROSS ENTERPRISES, and Berry basically decided if she wanted to be the boss, let her be the boss.

    After that tour, Diana began touring in-the-round with a smaller band and singers. In the US, she brought back dancers for the 1995 and 1996 TAKE ME HIGHER tour. But she didn't really do another big-budget spectacle again, although her initial MORE TODAY THAN YESTERDAY: GREATEST HITS TOUR was a welcome change.

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    yeah i've never really figured out what all DR Enterprises was handling. the day to day management? photo shoots? promotion and marketing? she wasn't Exec Producing her lps. Gordy was EP on Boss. how was EP on diana 80 and To Love Again?

    if she was really doing this, then i would have thought there would have been some sort of re-negotiation of her agreement. her motown contract and royalty structure would have been accounting for motown doing this and taking this cost up front. But if she was doing it, was motown then reimbursing her?? And i think she only had a small staff at these offices. maybe just the PR work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    hahahha - love ya Ran buddy!

    and given that the intimate, personal relationship between Ross and Gordy was pretty much over by end of 1970, after that she was pretty much another employee

    I'd assume that, like any business, they'd continue with a strategy [[such as mega shows) until that started to wane. her 1980 show is a radical departure. maybe after the hugeness of the Boss tour [[and maybe it not making huge money), they decided a new approach was necessary
    Right back at cha, Sup!!

    I don't think even Gordy would've ever looked at Diana at that point in the game as just another employee. I think she would have always been able to get his support and wrap him around her finger...as long as she was willing to play his game. Remember Florence saying how Gordy always said he wanted to control her [[her, being Flo) and when he couldn't, he didn't want her around. I didn't think about how accurate that statement may have been until this moment. Seems like as soon as Diana really stepped into independence and doing what she wanted, Gordy started giving her the finger. He wanted to control her, and when he couldn't, he no longer wanted her around. [[Which does bring up the question of how Flo's life- certainly her life at Motown- may have been different had she been willing to jump for Gordy no matter what, instead of doing what she wanted.)

    Now, this isn't me saying he wanted Diana to leave Motown. She was still a money maker and Gordy didn't want to let go of any money makers unless he had no other choice. But I think the damage had been done to that relationship. It was then that he would've treated her as he would anyone else at the label.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    In CALL HER MISS ROSS, J. Randy wrote that Diana was originally under the impression that Motown was helping with the costs of TOUR '79 but they were not. This was at the time that she had formed her own company, DIANA ROSS ENTERPRISES, and Berry basically decided if she wanted to be the boss, let her be the boss.

    After that tour, Diana began touring in-the-round with a smaller band and singers. In the US, she brought back dancers for the 1995 and 1996 TAKE ME HIGHER tour. But she didn't really do another big-budget spectacle again, although her initial MORE TODAY THAN YESTERDAY: GREATEST HITS TOUR was a welcome change.
    That makes a lot of sense regarding the change. Although I think the stage show would've had to change anyway. It worked well for the time. What Diana did with the stadiums and the round stages was right in line with the mega acts of the 80s.

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    you're def right Ran

    to say it another way, Gordy was ALWAYS impressed and dedicated to Diana primarily because he saw immense talent but also immense drive. he even says during the motown 40 [[i think) special that she was willing to make whatever sacrifices necessary in order to make it. that's something unique and special to her

    this isn't to put F or M down. it's not that they were lazy or lacking. they were typical teenagers. I know when i was 19, i was stupid lolol. yes you work hard at things but you also are young and want to have fun. M and F are completely normal for doing that. D is the oddball lol. she had a drive atypical of a teenager. Gordy saw that, recognized her unique singing voice, saw her impressive stage presence and realized this was the one.

    their love affair, IMO, was always secondary to that. both of them were always 110% focused on success. the affair started well after the focus on the Sups began and ended well before the focus on diana ended.

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    Gordy also realized that Diana was stubborn and didn't always want/know what was best. i think he realized that she was an amazing entertainer but not necessarily an amazing entertainment manager. just like him - an amazing manager but probably can't sing a single note! lol possessing talent in one most certainly does NOT guarantee talent with the other.

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