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  1. #101
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    I read the liner notes to Merry Christmas - I think there were Supremes somewhere in some of the songs and I think the Supremes were involved in some of the sessions with Diana, Berry’s kids, as Nd the Andantes

    I guess that helps some people but the kids were more important than the background vocalist on the one song and the critical piece is always the lead

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by NativeNuYorker View Post
    Is/was there a middle-class area in East Orange? Where exactly?
    Yes, of course there is.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Yeah but it wasn't a dangerous neighborhood. Wasn't exactly middle class but it was still above most black populated areas in Detroit before the late 1960s.
    I don't know where you are getting your information from, or who is telling you this stuff. The Brewster Projects were always a very dangerous place. I have seen it first hand when I was a kid, but listen to someone that actually lived there. Beginning at 20:20 in this video:


  4. #104
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    according to the booklet in the last EE of Merry Christmas, there are a LOT of unknown dates for these sessions. So that does open the door to speculation.

    They state that lead vocals were cut for Silent Night and O Holy Night on 9/9. I'm assuming these are the Flo leads [[not Diana's Silent lead and i'm also assuming she never cut a lead for Holy, but who knows for certain). So Flo was in the studios on Sept 9.

    Also on Sept 9 the backgrounds were recorded for Born of Mary, Rudolph, Santa Claus is Coming To Town and My Favorite Things. They also recut the backgrounds for Little Bright Star.

    Now does that mean that Flo and possibly Mary are on those backgrounds? I don't know. But Flo was at a studio doing Xmas recordings on the same day that Xmas backgrounds were recorded.

    The girls then were traveling and performing throughout Sept. 9/10 in Philly at JFK Stadium then 9/17 - 26 at the Safari Room in San Jose.

    Other background recording dates are: 9/1 Twinkle, Little Bright and Joy to World, 9/13 White Christmas, 9/16 Children Xmas, Little Drummer, My Xmas Tree, 9/21 Silver Bells


    So I'm going to GUESS that IF Flo and Mary are on Xmas album, it would most likely be Born of mary, Rudolph, Santa is Coming, Little Bright Star and Favorite. Possibly Twinkle and Joy

    When listening to the songs, what tracks do you think you hear M and F on? Sometimes if you listen to the stereo versions of the songs and with headphones on, you can pick up backgrounds split between the two channels. Like on the Floy Joy album. that can help identify which parts might be Sups vs A's

  5. #105
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    I believe the EE also references some recording being done in Los Angeles or California.

  6. #106
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    Marv my grandparents lived across from the projects and you are 100% correct. I learned a lot in a short period of time. BUT, we made a few good friends. A few folks were quite colorful to say the least.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    Marv my grandparents lived across from the projects and you are 100% correct. I learned a lot in a short period of time. BUT, we made a few good friends. A few folks were quite colorful to say the least.
    The DeBarge's mom Etherlene grew up in the Brewsters, as well as 80s Motown recording artist Val Young. You can find nice people anywhere, but the Brewster Projects were notorious for some rough people, not quite as bad as Cabrini Green or the Robert Taylor homes in Chicago, but rough, tough.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I don't know where you are getting your information from, or who is telling you this stuff. The Brewster Projects were always a very dangerous place. I have seen it first hand when I was a kid, but listen to someone that actually lived there. Beginning at 20:20 in this video:

    I got that information from Fred Ross, the father of you know who. Lol

    Not saying Brewster wasn't without trouble even in those early years [[or any other Detroit city for that matter, I mean I read about Black Bottom and Highland Park, where Jackie Wilson became affiliated with a local gang there for protection), I'm sure the Supremes ran with the wrong crowds during their early years [[I distinctly remember reading chapters where Diana nearly had the group killed a few times because she decided to dance with audience members during their early gigs), but are we really gonna act like black neighborhoods are just inherently violent? Might as well call Cissy Houston a liar for suggesting Newark was a peaceful neighborhood prior to the riots and white flight...

    Brewster didn't start to become real violent until after the Supremes began scoring hit after hit. The Supremes still lived in Brewster until mid-1965 when they bought their homes on Buena Vista Street.
    Last edited by midnightman; 12-03-2019 at 11:49 AM.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    I believe the EE also references some recording being done in Los Angeles or California.
    Yeah, Motown started to expand their base to California around 1964 [[shortly after signing Brenda Holloway, who was hesitant of recording in Detroit so Motown set up base for her in L.A.). Quite possible some of the Supremes Xmas tracks were created there.

  10. #110
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    It started to get rough before they hit big
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    I got that information from Fred Ross, the father of you know who. Lol

    Not saying Brewster wasn't without trouble even in those early years [[or any other Detroit city for that matter, I mean I read about Black Bottom and Highland Park, where Jackie Wilson became affiliated with a local gang there for protection), I'm sure the Supremes ran with the wrong crowds during their early years [[I distinctly remember reading chapters where Diana nearly had the group killed a few times because she decided to dance with audience members during their early gigs), but are we really gonna act like black neighborhoods are just inherently violent? Might as well call Cissy Houston a liar for suggesting Newark was a peaceful neighborhood prior to the riots and white flight...

    Brewster didn't start to become real violent until after the Supremes began scoring hit after hit. The Supremes still lived in Brewster until mid-1965 when they bought their homes on Buena Vista Street.

  11. #111
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    I am playing this in my truck because of this thread.

    I don't really pay a lot of attention to who the background might be; but this morning driving to work, on the few songs I heard - I sure didn't hear any Florence anywhere [[other than the added track, O Holy Night) and if Mary is doing those backgrounds, she's very buried behind Andantes.

  12. #112
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    If all of you would just listen to someone who was actually there when the recordings happened, I know for a FACT — A FACT — that it's Mozart, Beethoven and Handel who did ALL OF The Supremes' backing vocals on their Christmas album. Admittedly, it is a little known fact, but they all had beautiful female American-English singing voices way into their 200s. And you can quote me on that.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    It started to get rough before they hit big
    I did say that they stayed there before they really hit the top. They stayed there until 1965.

    I have to read CHMR again... I guess Brewster starts getting rough around 62-63?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomatoTom123 View Post
    If all of you would just listen to someone who was actually there when the recordings happened, I know for a FACT — A FACT — that it's Mozart, Beethoven and Handel who did ALL OF The Supremes' backing vocals on their Christmas album. Admittedly, it is a little known fact, but they all had beautiful female American-English singing voices way into their 200s. And you can quote me on that.
    Well ... I wasn't going to mention it, Tom, but I as well attended the sessions with MBH and I have to tell you those dooods could PARTAAAY!!

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    I did say that they stayed there before they really hit the top. They stayed there until 1965.

    I have to read CHMR again... I guess Brewster starts getting rough around 62-63?
    No, as Mary Wilson said, it was a very rough place in 1956 when she moved there. Projects are rough places just about anywhere. "CHMR" didn't live there.......Mary did!

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    I got that information from Fred Ross, the father of you know who. Lol

    Not saying Brewster wasn't without trouble even in those early years [[or any other Detroit city for that matter, I mean I read about Black Bottom and Highland Park, where Jackie Wilson became affiliated with a local gang there for protection), I'm sure the Supremes ran with the wrong crowds during their early years [[I distinctly remember reading chapters where Diana nearly had the group killed a few times because she decided to dance with audience members during their early gigs), but are we really gonna act like black neighborhoods are just inherently violent? Might as well call Cissy Houston a liar for suggesting Newark was a peaceful neighborhood prior to the riots and white flight...

    Brewster didn't start to become real violent until after the Supremes began scoring hit after hit. The Supremes still lived in Brewster until mid-1965 when they bought their homes on Buena Vista Street.
    Fred Ross? What? You contacted a Medium? LOL! Did Fred tell you that he told Mary , Florence and Paul Williams not to let Diane join their group? He told them that she didn't have a "group mentality" and that they would be better off if they took his other daughter Barbara? LOL! You can't tell me about Detroit man. I spent half my childhood there, working there, everything there [[LOL!). Half of my relatives are or were from there! I cannot believe you are arguing about something where it is clear you know very little to nothing about. I don't know what you read. Maybe you saw something about how nice the projects were in the 1940s when they first started opening up. There is a bunch you cannot read about Diana Ross and a lot of other people........because it has not been written! I don't know about every black neighborhood, but I do know the ones in Detroit and they were/are ROUGH! You are lying when you say that the Brewster-Douglas Projects did not start to become real violent until after the Supremes began scoring hits. LOL! I wished I had a Time Machine so I could send you back there in the Mid-1950s. You would get beat up every day just for being so naive! LOL! Don't believe Mary? Ask some of the Brewster-Douglas Oldtimers in Detroit. There are still quite a few of them still around. Many of them show up whenever Mary Wilson is in town in concert.

  17. #117
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    Now here's something I did not know, Helen Thomas, former long time White House Correspondent grew up in that area too.

    Lily Tomlin grew up in the Brewster Projects too. Her parents moved up from Tennesee.
    Last edited by marv2; 12-04-2019 at 08:00 AM.

  18. #118
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    Damn Marv I knew abt Lily Tomlin not Helen Thomas! Interesting.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    Damn Marv I knew abt Lily Tomlin not Helen Thomas! Interesting.
    Yeah, I knew Helen Thomas was a tough, no BS lady and now I know why! LOL! She went to the former Eastern High School which is now called MLK High School. A lot of athletes came out of that school back in the day.

  20. #120
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    Ralph and George may be able to help with one aspect I've wondered about. It seems that Motown specialty LPs were recorded quickly and a tad scattershot and rushed to the market. If any completed track was deemed artistically complete and releasable is it likely that the powers that be would take the time to mix in missing group vocals? Just for efficiency's sake I would think not. In today's world these could be punched in digitally at a moment's notice; in 1965 it would have been a more time-consuming procedure.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Ralph and George may be able to help with one aspect I've wondered about. It seems that Motown specialty LPs were recorded quickly and a tad scattershot and rushed to the market. If any completed track was deemed artistically complete and releasable is it likely that the powers that be would take the time to mix in missing group vocals? Just for efficiency's sake I would think not. In today's world these could be punched in digitally at a moment's notice; in 1965 it would have been a more time-consuming procedure.
    yep

    motown approached their recordings assembly-line. Writers were constantly crafting songs and ideas, often just rough outlines. producers were organizing studio time to take the songs and get backing tracks prepared. they'd be notified when groups would be available and then have whatever pieces possible ready. so the groups would be brought into the studios to rehearse and crank out a bunch of content.

    In listing out the dates of what the girls were doing based on the liner notes from the EE's, you can see how Diana was brought in on days and knocked out a bunch of songs. Backgrounds were done the same way. there'll be 3 or so days of each doing a bunch of stuff, sometimes the same songs and often not.

    producers were constantly tinkering with the tracks before [[and sometimes even after) release. additional background vocals, additional instrumentation being added, recording parts, etc. Deke tells a fascinating story in the MRATV 50th Anniv set about I Can't Dance. He wanted to keep working with Martha on the leads and tried to get travel approved to do to wherever she was performing and get some studio time. but it wasn't approved. So he resorted to using Syreeta.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    I read the liner notes to Merry Christmas - I think there were Supremes somewhere in some of the songs and I think the Supremes were involved in some of the sessions with Diana, Berry’s kids, as Nd the Andantes

    I guess that helps some people but the kids were more important than the background vocalist on the one song and the critical piece is always the lead
    I always thought it strange that Flo and Mary would be brought into the studio to record leads for the Christmas album but not be brought in for any of the background work. I've also never been convinced that Florence is not on "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town".

  23. #123
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    In regards to the way Motown approached it's background singing, I think it's interesting to note that, while it's been said that it was more convenient to record the lead singer with session singers, this mindset may have only applied to the female groups. The Supremes were extremely busy and so this mindset makes sense. On the other hand, how busy could the Marvelettes have been in comparison, and the Andantes are all over a ton of their stuff during the same time period. On the flip, the Tempts and Tops were nearly as busy as the Supremes [[I'll venture that they were just as busy but not nearly as documented), and yet finding replacement Tempts and Tops on any of their recordings with session singers would be like finding a needle in a haystack. Strange.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    In regards to the way Motown approached it's background singing, I think it's interesting to note that, while it's been said that it was more convenient to record the lead singer with session singers, this mindset may have only applied to the female groups. The Supremes were extremely busy and so this mindset makes sense. On the other hand, how busy could the Marvelettes have been in comparison, and the Andantes are all over a ton of their stuff during the same time period. On the flip, the Tempts and Tops were nearly as busy as the Supremes [[I'll venture that they were just as busy but not nearly as documented), and yet finding replacement Tempts and Tops on any of their recordings with session singers would be like finding a needle in a haystack. Strange.
    I still think that it sometimes boiled down to whose voices a producer preferred on his productions. Unfortunately that didn't always mean the group members. And of course, this wasn't unique to Motown.

    Also, in many ways, it was still a man's world back then. I think things that were done to the female singers wouldn't have been attempted on the male singers without some serious kickback. That said, I also think that we don't know for sure. Did other male vocalists like the Originals sub for the Tempts or Tops? Only those involved know for sure.
    Last edited by reese; 12-20-2019 at 10:03 AM.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    In regards to the way Motown approached it's background singing, I think it's interesting to note that, while it's been said that it was more convenient to record the lead singer with session singers, this mindset may have only applied to the female groups. The Supremes were extremely busy and so this mindset makes sense. On the other hand, how busy could the Marvelettes have been in comparison, and the Andantes are all over a ton of their stuff during the same time period. On the flip, the Tempts and Tops were nearly as busy as the Supremes [[I'll venture that they were just as busy but not nearly as documented), and yet finding replacement Tempts and Tops on any of their recordings with session singers would be like finding a needle in a haystack. Strange.
    but also look at the general freedom marvin, smokey were given. I too find it odd that only the female backing vocals were expendable. Smokey never swapped out the male voices on any Miracles or Temps tracks. Some have said that the Marvelettes weren't as strong of singers - maybe harmonies or 3-part work was more challenging for them to do right and do quickly.

    i basically sum it up to male chauvinism. there was just always this pervasive chauvinistic attitude at motown [[and frankly around most of the country at this time)

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    but also look at the general freedom marvin, smokey were given. I too find it odd that only the female backing vocals were expendable. Smokey never swapped out the male voices on any Miracles or Temps tracks. Some have said that the Marvelettes weren't as strong of singers - maybe harmonies or 3-part work was more challenging for them to do right and do quickly.

    i basically sum it up to male chauvinism. there was just always this pervasive chauvinistic attitude at motown [[and frankly around most of the country at this time)
    The other line you hear is that the producers could do whatever they wanted in order to get the sound they wanted.

    Maybe they didn't dare do it to the guys.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    I still think that it sometimes boiled down to whose voices a producer preferred on his productions. Unfortunately that didn't always mean the group members. And of course, this wasn't unique to Motown.

    Also, in many ways, it was still a man's world back then. I think things that were done to the female singers wouldn't have been attempted on the male singers without some serious kickback. That said, I also think that we don't know for sure. Did other male vocalists like the Originals sub for the Tempts or Tops? Only those involved know for sure.
    I'm not sure about the Tempts- I find it doubtful- but I thought there was at least one song where the Tops are replaced by the Originals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

    But I agree that it does seem to be producer's choice. I believe in a thread a year or two ago we all broke it down a bit among which producers used the Andantes more or less. I don't think any producer used them more than the actual Supremes, but HDH and Smokey were less likely than others to use the Andantes in place of Flo and Mary, until DRATS when I think Smokey used the Andantes more than Mary and Cindy. If I recall correctly.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    but also look at the general freedom marvin, smokey were given. I too find it odd that only the female backing vocals were expendable. Smokey never swapped out the male voices on any Miracles or Temps tracks. Some have said that the Marvelettes weren't as strong of singers - maybe harmonies or 3-part work was more challenging for them to do right and do quickly.

    i basically sum it up to male chauvinism. there was just always this pervasive chauvinistic attitude at motown [[and frankly around most of the country at this time)
    I think it's clear that the Marvelettes didn't possess the capabilities of the Supremes and the Vandellas, or even the Velvelettes, which is why I think of all the female groups, the Marvelettes are the easiest to recognize when being replaced by the Andantes.

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