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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    to be clear, I'm not saying Flo and Mary are not on the album . From listening to a couple of cuts on youtube, I am of the opinion that what I hear is the two of them [[and not the Andantes lol!).

    What I am saying is that Mary's comments could be cleverly couched to induce a false conclusion. She doe not say, "That's me and Flo singing on the Christmas album," as the title to this thread suggests.


    Has Mary ever addressed this directly?
    Mary Wilson was the first one to my knowledge to acknowledge that she, nor Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" or "Someday, We'll Be Together". She went on to explain why. She is also the first person I had ever heard mention "The Andantes". I had never heard of them before reading "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" in 1986. I didn't even know how to pronounce their name!

    What sense would it make for Mary to talk about not being on two of the Supremes biggest hits, but take her proper credit for being on the album "Merry Christmas" which is basically a novelty album! She doesn't have to try to be clever, all she need do is what she has always done and that is tell the truth!

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    The Andantes were used only for "augmentation". Augmentation means -the action or process of making or becoming greater in size or amount.

    The producers decided that they wanted more voices on the recorded to create a bigger sound.
    No, Marv. Had they only been "augmentation" Motown would have released version 1 of Stop! and not version 2. The same could be said of the dozens of other releases [[esp. Four Tops). The Andantes helped make the Motown Sound. Let's not diminish their stellar efforts as contributors to the Motown Sound. They weren't just "augmentation". They were authentic and central parts of the overall sound. Why else would Motown, a money-making effort, put them on so many releases?

    As for Mary's acknowledgement of the Andantes, her book was also the first place I learned of their contribution, so kudos to her.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    No, Marv. Had they only been "augmentation" Motown would have released version 1 of Stop! and not version 2. The same could be said of the dozens of other releases [[esp. Four Tops). The Andantes helped make the Motown Sound. Let's not diminish their stellar efforts as contributors to the Motown Sound. They weren't just "augmentation". They were authentic and central parts of the overall sound. Why else would Motown, a money-making effort, put them on so many releases?

    As for Mary's acknowledgement of the Andantes, her book was also the first place I learned of their contribution, so kudos to her.
    See I knew you were going say that. I wasn't talking about their work on a few early Four Tops recordings where they sang part or all of the background. I am speaking strictly of "Stop In the Name of Love". They do not dominate the background harmonies on it in any way! I did not diminishing their contributions, I am also not going to sit here and exaggerate their works either! They had a part in it, but for me and many others it was the Funk Brothers that gave Motown it's unique sound. Some can tell when a single or album for Motown was cut outside of Detroit just by how the musicians sound. Granted the Andantes did a good job, but they could have found sessions singers in any medium to large church in Detroit on any given Sunday! It's still true today.

    Look at the excellent singers that backed Aretha Franklin over the years. Every one of them came out of the church in Detroit [[until she moved out to LA).
    Last edited by marv2; 11-30-2019 at 10:56 AM.

  4. #54
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    Well, I guess what's she supposed to say? 'Nah - there's lots of Supremes records I don't sing on'? Anywhogivesamistletoe, I love the LP and it would be great if it were ultimately proven that all 3 sang on every song on the LP. But that don't seem to be the case. It sure ain't Mary and Flo who we prominently hear on My Favorite Things and Joy to the World.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    See I knew you were going say that.
    Lol. Tell me tomorrow's lotto numbers.

    Maybe, but if Motown had the ability to find any session singers in any Sunday church they would have. But they didn't. They stuck with the Andantes for hundreds of singles. Not just to Tops or Supremes, but many others.

    But I do agree that the Funks had more to do with "the sound" than anyone else, other than HDH perhaps. Funks with anyone other than HDH just don't have the same magic.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Well, I guess what's she supposed to say? 'Nah - there's lots of Supremes records I don't sing on'? Anywhogivesamistletoe, I love the LP and it would be great if it were ultimately proven that all 3 sang on every song on the LP. But that don't seem to be the case. It sure ain't Mary and Flo who we prominently hear on My Favorite Things and Joy to the World.
    Funny how no one disputes who the foreground singer is.

  7. #57
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    I'm not even going to debate "Stop!". Its been settled months ago.

    Most of the Xmas album sounds like the Andantes but there songs like "Born of Mary" and "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" where it sounds like more than 3 voices. I wonder if Mary and Flo are on those tracks.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I'm not even going to debate "Stop!". Its been settled months ago.

    Most of the Xmas album sounds like the Andantes but there songs like "Born of Mary" and "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" where it sounds like more than 3 voices. I wonder if Mary and Flo are on those tracks.
    Read the liner notes.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Lol. Tell me tomorrow's lotto numbers.

    Maybe, but if Motown had the ability to find any session singers in any Sunday church they would have. But they didn't. They stuck with the Andantes for hundreds of singles. Not just to Tops or Supremes, but many others.

    But I do agree that the Funks had more to do with "the sound" than anyone else, other than HDH perhaps. Funks with anyone other than HDH just don't have the same magic.
    Look, if Motown really valued the Andantes that much, they would have paid them better. They got something like $10-12.00 per session! It was the Andantes that knew they had hooked up on a good thing in their minds. Had any one of them left, nothing would have stopped at Motown.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I'm not even going to debate "Stop!". Its been settled months ago.

    Most of the Xmas album sounds like the Andantes but there songs like "Born of Mary" and "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" where it sounds like more than 3 voices. I wonder if Mary and Flo are on those tracks.
    I'm curious, how do you even know what the Andantes or Andante sounds like? I know Mary, Florence and Diane's voices. They are unique.

  11. #61
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    I can't tell their voices apart individually but together I'd describe it as a generic, heavy sound. And the genericness worked for a lot of songs but nothing is as good as Mary, Diana and Flo's sound together.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I can't tell their voices apart individually but together I'd describe it as a generic, heavy sound. And the genericness worked for a lot of songs but nothing is as good as Mary, Diana and Flo's sound together.
    Cool. I can understand that. I also can't tell you what the Andantes sound like, but I know when Mary, Flo, Cindy, etc are not on a recording. I know their voices very well.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Mary Wilson was the first one to my knowledge to acknowledge that she, nor Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" or "Someday, We'll Be Together". She went on to explain why. She is also the first person I had ever heard mention "The Andantes". I had never heard of them before reading "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" in 1986. I didn't even know how to pronounce their name!
    But wait a minute Marv, i thought you were a lifelong dedicated Supremes fan . You mean to tell me that a hardcore Supremes follower such as yourself, when eagerly listening to each new record by them , never once paused and thought , "wait a minute , I'm hearing more than The Supremes on here" ......
    What sense would it make for Mary to talk about not being on two of the Supremes biggest hits, but take her proper credit for being on the album "Merry Christmas" which is basically a novelty album! She doesn't have to try to be clever, all she need do is what she has always done and that is tell the truth!
    Hee hee, your protest makes me think maybe i'm on to something . Mary seems to be aware that there is a new video of their old Christmas tune and to be a part of the limelight seems to me to be trying too hard in her wording to "imply" that its all three of them on the record , such that while telling some truth , not necessarily telling the WHOLE truth.
    By the way , why is there even the doubt that Mary and Flo are or aren't on the Xmas LP? How did that rumor get started ...by whom ??

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Look, if Motown really valued the Andantes that much, they would have paid them better. They got something like $10-12.00 per session! It was the Andantes that knew they had hooked up on a good thing in their minds. Had any one of them left, nothing would have stopped at Motown.
    Hey Marv! Assuming 2- 4 hour sessions per day @ $12 flat rate per session adjusted for inflation equates to approx. $24.00 hr in 2019. Full time almost $ 50,000
    Annually in $2019 with no benefits though!!

  15. #65
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    "Motown didn't value the Andantes."

    The same could be said for virtually every other act signed on there including, yes, all three original Supremes.

    Funny that happens, huh?

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Mary Wilson was the first one to my knowledge to acknowledge that she, nor Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" or "Someday, We'll Be Together". She went on to explain why. She is also the first person I had ever heard mention "The Andantes". I had never heard of them before reading "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" in 1986. I didn't even know how to pronounce their name!

    What sense would it make for Mary to talk about not being on two of the Supremes biggest hits, but take her proper credit for being on the album "Merry Christmas" which is basically a novelty album! She doesn't have to try to be clever, all she need do is what she has always done and that is tell the truth!
    ‘Mary does not always tell the truth - she’s an admitted liar in Dreamgirl, accused of duplicity by Flo in several situations and has told whoppers to very recently claiming she coined No-hit Supremes”. I can list sone of her untruths if you wish.

    Mary could have told the truth about The Andantes but instead chose to work it into her memoire as another ”poor me” situation after Flo left and not that The A’s had been augmenting or totally replacing them since 1963. THAT would have been telling the truth. What Mary did was write a book using some facts and some falsehoods and some in-between realities.

    personally, I don’t believe Mary and Flower are on the Christmas album, I can hear Marlene barrow all over the place…… And, I think Mary and Flos would’ve sounded better especially on white Christmas and well quite a few others. You are so completely not objective about this topic that everyone can predict what you’re going to say before you even say it. George and Andy stated plainly that mary and flow are not on stop the name of love single, you choose not to believe that because Levine Dempsey said she recorded with Mary and flo on that song…… Ignoring the fact that the take that she did with Mary and Florence was not used for the 45… That that you just look for anything to support your agenda and go with it. Other times, when it suits your agenda, you quote Andy and George like they are the holy Gospel. Whenever Smokey Robinson said something positive about Mary you repeat it ad nauseam, but when he wrote in his book that “The story of the Supremes would’ve been the same with Diane and any two girls” you dismissed it as Berry Gordy’s henchmen furthering the company line.

  17. #67
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    Yes he's full of doggy do! Well spelled out again

  18. #68
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    Mary promised in her first book to give part of the profits to flo’s children. She gave nothing because I personally asked her during a radio call-in show. She said she changed her mind. LOL

    gotta love Mary, she is one if a kind !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    By the way , why is there even the doubt that Mary and Flo are or aren't on the Xmas LP? How did that rumor get started ...by whom ??
    There wasn't any doubt until some of these guys joined this forum! We knew about the Andantes at least since 1986 when Mary's first book came out. It's started by people that want to continue to try to elevate Diana Ross at the expense of the other Supremes. The rumors are started by Diana Ross "fans".

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    Hey Marv! Assuming 2- 4 hour sessions per day @ $12 flat rate per session adjusted for inflation equates to approx. $24.00 hr in 2019. Full time almost $ 50,000
    Annually in $2019 with no benefits though!!
    That would be the perfect scenario for the Andantes,but I doubt their work was that constant, and or consistent even during the hey-day of Motown.
    Last edited by marv2; 11-30-2019 at 10:53 AM.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    "Motown didn't value the Andantes."

    The same could be said for virtually every other act signed on there including, yes, all three original Supremes.

    Funny that happens, huh?
    No, that does not correlate. Motown valued big earners. All three Supremes were big earners for the company in the sixties. They invested a lot of money in them and they got great returns for it.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    No, that does not correlate. Motown valued big earners. All three Supremes were big earners for the company in the sixties. They invested a lot of money in them and they got great returns for it.
    I agree, marv2. Many fans, in hindsight, will put blistering blame on Mr. Gordy and Motown for not promoting their favorite artists enough or with making profits at the artists' expense. While such 'misuse' might not as easily happen today with specialized attorneys and PR people all around, back in the 50s and 60s, such representation was not common especially at a company which was just getting its feet off the ground. With some exceptions, I believe most of the major artists [[and why wouldn't one focus on them?) did pretty well for themselves. Could it have been better based on what we know today? Yes. Motown was a company and to say it did not value its acts is ludicrous. If I had a company and one or two of its products were making money for me, yes, I will tend to focus more on those two products.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    Mary promised in her first book to give part of the profits to flo’s children. She gave nothing because I personally asked her during a radio call-in show. She said she changed her mind. LOL

    gotta love Mary, she is one if a kind !
    She never has had the money to give to anyone - that’s the plain and simple fact

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    ‘Mary does not always tell the truth - she’s an admitted liar in Dreamgirl, accused of duplicity by Flo in several situations and has told whoppers to very recently claiming she coined No-hit Supremes”. I can list sone of her untruths if you wish.

    Mary could have told the truth about The Andantes but instead chose to work it into her memoire as another ”poor me” situation after Flo left and not that The A’s had been augmenting or totally replacing them since 1963. THAT would have been telling the truth. What Mary did was write a book using some facts and some falsehoods and some in-between realities.

    personally, I don’t believe Mary and Flower are on the Christmas album, I can hear Marlene barrow all over the place…… And, I think Mary and Flos would’ve sounded better especially on white Christmas and well quite a few others. You are so completely not objective about this topic that everyone can predict what you’re going to say before you even say it. George and Andy stated plainly that mary and flow are not on stop the name of love single, you choose not to believe that because Levine Dempsey said she recorded with Mary and flo on that song…… Ignoring the fact that the take that she did with Mary and Florence was not used for the 45… That that you just look for anything to support your agenda and go with it. Other times, when it suits your agenda, you quote Andy and George like they are the holy Gospel. Whenever Smokey Robinson said something positive about Mary you repeat it ad nauseam, but when he wrote in his book that “The story of the Supremes would’ve been the same with Diane and any two girls” you dismissed it as Berry Gordy’s henchmen furthering the company line.
    The amount of wasted life #laughingstock expends is his own issue, but the sheer volume of falsity he dumps here is truly pathetic.

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    I may need to hear the Christmas album again. But I recall my brother had "My Favorite Things" on his Christmas mix CD and to be honest, I can see that the Andantes would've been on it and not Mary & Flo.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    ‘Mary does not always tell the truth - she’s an admitted liar in Dreamgirl, accused of duplicity by Flo in several situations and has told whoppers to very recently claiming she coined No-hit Supremes”. I can list sone of her untruths if you wish.

    Mary could have told the truth about The Andantes but instead chose to work it into her memoire as another ”poor me” situation after Flo left and not that The A’s had been augmenting or totally replacing them since 1963. THAT would have been telling the truth. What Mary did was write a book using some facts and some falsehoods and some in-between realities.

    personally, I don’t believe Mary and Flower are on the Christmas album, I can hear Marlene barrow all over the place…… And, I think Mary and Flos would’ve sounded better especially on white Christmas and well quite a few others. You are so completely not objective about this topic that everyone can predict what you’re going to say before you even say it. George and Andy stated plainly that mary and flow are not on stop the name of love single, you choose not to believe that because Levine Dempsey said she recorded with Mary and flo on that song…… Ignoring the fact that the take that she did with Mary and Florence was not used for the 45… That that you just look for anything to support your agenda and go with it. Other times, when it suits your agenda, you quote Andy and George like they are the holy Gospel. Whenever Smokey Robinson said something positive about Mary you repeat it ad nauseam, but when he wrote in his book that “The story of the Supremes would’ve been the same with Diane and any two girls” you dismissed it as Berry Gordy’s henchmen furthering the company line.
    Thank you MotownManiac. I couldn’t have said it any better!

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    Actually since it’s been brought up dozen times but not fully understanding , what exactly did mary lies about .

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    And since there are plenty of non Mary fans on this thread you be able to list all of them and have the receipts to prove it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Actually since it’s been brought up dozen times but not fully understanding , what exactly did mary lies about .
    Circa claims that Mary called in on his radio show and when he asked her if she ever gave money to Florence's children, she said she changed her mind.

    She also apparently lied about the group being teased for having no hits and that she recently said she herself coined her own group "the no-hit Supremes".

    Another lie, or maybe just a partial truth, she claims Motown gave Diana "People" but apparently Diana herself had stopped singing it in late 1966 when the group later toured Asia. Onstage, Flo and Mary sung it. Honestly, I don't know if "People" was ever performed again after Flo left. I could be wrong.

    And that the Andantes didn't start singing on their records until after Flo left [[I'm guessing that's what I read).

    That's all I can think of now. Maybe the others can fill you in on others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    I may need to hear the Christmas album again. But I recall my brother had "My Favorite Things" on his Christmas mix CD and to be honest, I can see that the Andantes would've been on it and not Mary & Flo.
    If they were [[which I doubt), they are singing in a whisper behind Flo and Mary.

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    The no hit claim I’ll give you that one. I trust the claim Circa made about Mary as much as I would trust a claim Marv would make about Diana. Mary did state that the Andantes actually we’re on 75 % of all Motown’s recordings including theirs.
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Circa claims that Mary called in on his radio show and when he asked her if she ever gave money to Florence's children, she said she changed her mind.

    She also apparently lied about the group being teased for having no hits and that she recently said she herself coined her own group "the no-hit Supremes".

    Another lie, or maybe just a partial truth, she claims Motown gave Diana "People" but apparently Diana herself had stopped singing it in late 1966 when the group later toured Asia. Onstage, Flo and Mary sung it. Honestly, I don't know if "People" was ever performed again after Flo left. I could be wrong.

    And that the Andantes didn't start singing on their records until after Flo left [[I'm guessing that's what I read).

    That's all I can think of now. Maybe the others can fill you in on others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    The no hit claim I’ll give you that one. I trust the claim Circa made about Mary as much as I would trust a claim Marv would make about Diana. Mary did state that the Andantes actually we’re on 75 % of all Motown’s recordings including theirs.
    What about that time she got pregnant by Berry Gordy, but led the public to believe the baby was with her husband Robert Silberstein. Oh my bad. That was Diana Ross that pulled that sham.

    How about the time in Montreal at Expo '67 when questioned about Florence Ballard, she told the interviewer for the CBC that she had left the group to go into the antiques business. That was a whopper right there!
    Last edited by marv2; 11-30-2019 at 10:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    What about that time she got pregnant by Berry Gordy, but led the public to believe the baby was with her husband Robert Silberstein. Oh my bad. That was Diana Ross that pulled that sham.

    How about the time in Montreal at Expo '67 when questioned about Florence Ballard, she told the interviewer for the CBC that she had left the group to go into the antiques business. That was a whopper right there!
    Oh please. The pregnancy was a private family matter. Diana Ross did not go on TV talking about it. Also everyone at Motown was told what to say in interviews. Just like Michael was told to lie about his age. Completely different from the lies Mary does!!
    Last edited by vgalindo; 11-30-2019 at 11:54 PM.

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    The way both sides argue it sounds more like a bunch of jr high school girls arguing over who said what . Which really makes me wonder what’s really true and what’s really full of it.

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    And Motown wasn't the only label where artists had to play the PR game. For years, the Supremes had to say they were "project girls" when the Brewster Projects that they grew up in was much nicer than what it became after they found fame. It's like when Whitney Houston pretended to be from the streets of Newark but she was really a middle class girl from East Orange [[though that one was something WH came up to "be down" lol).

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    The no hit claim I’ll give you that one. I trust the claim Circa made about Mary as much as I would trust a claim Marv would make about Diana. Mary did state that the Andantes actually we’re on 75 % of all Motown’s recordings including theirs.
    Oh did she? I need to read Dreamgirl again lol

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    Page 134 to be exact .
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Oh did she? I need to read Dreamgirl again lol

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    It was still the projects. It was only “nice” g th or a few years before it became dangerous .
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    And Motown wasn't the only label where artists had to play the PR game. For years, the Supremes had to say they were "project girls" when the Brewster Projects that they grew up in was much nicer than what it became after they found fame. It's like when Whitney Houston pretended to be from the streets of Newark but she was really a middle class girl from East Orange [[though that one was something WH came up to "be down" lol).

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    I have to go look but what do the Merry Christmas liner notes say about the andantes?

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    Listened to the album today with headphones on and this is what I hear....

    "White Christmas" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Silver Bells" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Born of Mary" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
    "Children's Christmas Song" -Diana, the Andantes and some stupid kids who cant sing
    "The Little Drummer Boy"-Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
    "My Christmas Tree" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
    "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
    "My Favorite Things" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Twinkle Twinkle Little Me" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Little Bright Star" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Joy to the World" -Diana and the Andantes

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Oh jeez, here we go again. How many Hail Mary Wilsons in penance must I say?
    Eight-thousand, six-hundred and twenty-three.

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    It’s always never ending.
    Quote Originally Posted by TomatoTom123 View Post
    Eight-thousand, six-hundred and twenty-three.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    I have to go look but what do the Merry Christmas liner notes say about the andantes?
    This: 'Andantes - FAKE NOOOZE!'

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    Are you a big fan of the the Andantes? LOL!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    Listened to the album today with headphones on and this is what I hear....

    "White Christmas" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Silver Bells" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Born of Mary" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
    "Children's Christmas Song" -Diana, the Andantes and some stupid kids who cant sing
    "The Little Drummer Boy"-Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
    "My Christmas Tree" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
    "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
    "My Favorite Things" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Twinkle Twinkle Little Me" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Little Bright Star" -Diana and the Andantes
    "Joy to the World" -Diana and the Andantes
    Those " stupid kids who can't sing" were Berry Gordy Jr's children Berry IV, Hazel and Terry Gordy.

    Attachment 16608
    Last edited by marv2; 12-01-2019 at 10:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    And Motown wasn't the only label where artists had to play the PR game. For years, the Supremes had to say they were "project girls" when the Brewster Projects that they grew up in was much nicer than what it became after they found fame. It's like when Whitney Houston pretended to be from the streets of Newark but she was really a middle class girl from East Orange [[though that one was something WH came up to "be down" lol).
    Is/was there a middle-class area in East Orange? Where exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    And Motown wasn't the only label where artists had to play the PR game. For years, the Supremes had to say they were "project girls" when the Brewster Projects that they grew up in was much nicer than what it became after they found fame. It's like when Whitney Houston pretended to be from the streets of Newark but she was really a middle class girl from East Orange [[though that one was something WH came up to "be down" lol).
    You are kidding right? The Brewster Projects were extremely rough back in the 1950s when the Supremes were living there. Gangs, drugs and general pandemonium were present during those years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Those " stupid kids who can't sing" were Berry Gordy Jr's children Berry IV, Hazel and Terry Gordy.

    Attachment 16608
    He should have told them to go play outside

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    Quote Originally Posted by NativeNuYorker View Post
    Is/was there a middle-class area in East Orange? Where exactly?
    The Houstons moved to Dodd Street in 1968.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    It was still the projects. It was only “nice” g th or a few years before it became dangerous .
    Yeah but it wasn't a dangerous neighborhood. Wasn't exactly middle class but it was still above most black populated areas in Detroit before the late 1960s.

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