Diana Ross' Payout from Motown

[Boogiedown]

Indeed. Her daughters were in a boarding school in Switzerland [[or wherever). It's not like she was picking them up from soccer practice three days a week. It's astonishing that anyone -- including the drama queen[[s) of SD -- could think that the lack of creativity and subpar quality of the RCA catalog was due to Ross's devotion to her family.

.

hee hee----

[marv2]

Because it's a bunch of boloney. Career women, then as now, find a way to juggle career and motherhood. It's difficult, but not impossible. Diana's priority was her family, and that's one of the reasons why I love this woman I have never met. So many showbiz folks put career ahead of family and then when the kids grow up, the tell alls come out, or the entertainer finds him/herself in a place where they suddenly realize that the money and fame ultimately were not worth the price of the sacrifice of the relationship with their children. Blessedly Diana will not be counted among that type. But the demands of family are never a reason for subpar work and only in a forum full of fanatics would such a thought be popular with anyone. Her RCA period showcased a mostly lazy artistic approach to recording. That the same woman who recorded beautiful renditions of Rodgers and Hart classics in the 60s and well received tracks of Billie Holiday numbers in the 70s could then turn around and record abysmal covers like "Rescue Me" and "Mr. Lee", had to boggle the minds of every non member of the Church of Diana during the RCA years.

They said that because Mary Wilson had 2 babies between 1977-79 that was no excuse for her not working more on her career during those years:

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...ry+Wilson+1977

[marv2]

hee hee----

They are full of sh*t here. Here's a thread from here that have people saying Mary Wilson having 2 babies and a toddler during the years 1977-79 was no excuse for her not working more on her career during those years:

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...ry+Wilson+1977

[marv2]

Did any artist walk away from Motown feeling set for life?
Lionel Richie seems to want to have nothing to do with the association.....

The only 2 or 3 I can think of are Smokey Robinson, Lionel Richie and Stevie Wonder [[although Stevie has never really left the label). All others had to work and work hard after leaving Motown to get some money!

[PeaceNHarmony]

Well Diana never disappointed me. Her RCA years were very exciting for me. The huge arena tours, new posters, beautiful tour programs at every new tour. A new album every year. The Central Park concert. I miss these times of her career. She was at the height of her fame. And I loved the music!

And I as well!

[Albator]

for the early years at RCA, it seems that her whole focus was "oh yes i can!"

yes i can be a producer, yes i can sing 10,000 different musical styles from hard rock and roll to reggae to pop, yes i can handle all aspects of my career.

after being controlled for so long, the first couple years simply seem to be her experimenting for the sake of experimenting

then we approach the mid 80s and she's now 40 years old. she might have been panicked a bit by the arrival of the new female pop stars and so she desperately attempts to be trendy with her music

Great post !!!

[midnightman]

Did any artist walk away from Motown feeling set for life?
Lionel Richie seems to want to have nothing to do with the association.....

No.

Marvin left the label in humongous debt but apparently the Motown exit [[and later Larkin Arnold's Columbia contract stipulations were set to straighten out the debt, which wasn't broadcast for public exposure in fear it would backfire on Marvin's comeback).

The Jackson 5 had to tour more often than they should have because Joe didn't read the parts where Motown would own their name and that they only received 2.7% royalties from their work.

Mary Wells, we know what happened to her after she left Motown.

DeBarge had to sign away their full rights to leave. Only El gets paid more via songwriting royalties from their songs, least in comparison to Randy and Bunny. And none of them wrote their biggest hit, "Rhythm of the Night".

The only one who could've left with a clean slate by this point was Stevie but he's chosen to stay. Lionel and Smokey wrote virtually all of their big hits so they were and remain set.

[midnightman]

Some interesting thoughts there on her move from Motown.

I think it was surely chiefly monetary.

It has been suggested that Motown was deliberately underquoting sales levels in order to avoid paying royalties to artists.

J. Randy Taraborrelli claimed that Diana was furious and thought she was being lied to when she received her Royalty cheque for It's My Turn for sales somewhere below 450k - the record had reached 9 in the Billboard Top 100 and was 21 weeks in the chart.

Apparently this was a major bone of contention between Diana and Berry.

However it could be that the record didn't sell as well as thought.

Generally Diana's bigger hits all charted higher in Cash Box and Record World [[Reach Out And Touch, Remember Me and Last Time I Saw Him all going To 10) yet It's My Turn peaked at #18 on CB and #20 on RW.

There were also suggestions that Berry Gordy Jnr. had "bought" the placing on BB in an effort to persuade Diana that her future remained bright with Motown.

Who knows!

Berry had each act sign with the same royalty rate, one of the lowest in the business and this was in an era when folks signed for peanuts and quick money. So the Supremes got the same type of contract EVERY other Motown artist signed. Meaning if their records sold extremely well, they would only receive less than $10k apiece.

[Ollie9]

for the early years at RCA, it seems that her whole focus was "oh yes i can!"

yes i can be a producer, yes i can sing 10,000 different musical styles from hard rock and roll to reggae to pop, yes i can handle all aspects of my career.

after being controlled for so long, the first couple years simply seem to be her experimenting for the sake of experimenting

then we approach the mid 80s and she's now 40 years old. she might have been panicked a bit by the arrival of the new female pop stars and so she desperately attempts to be trendy with her music

Financial gain aside, i think you have probably hit the proverbial nail on the head.
i do question her musicality at the time if she really considered those first two rca albums well produced. To anyone with an ear for music the production was clearly lacking. Was it a question of it's not great but put it out anyway or did she truly believe she had done a great job?.
Diana is a wonderful singer and can interpret a song like no other. Having said that i think she lacks a natural musical instinct that a producer has to have.

[Bluebrock]

Financial gain aside, i think you have probably hit the proverbial nail on the head.
i do question her musicality at the time if she really considered those first two rca albums well produced. To anyone with an ear for music the production was clearly lacking. Was it a question of it's not great but put it out anyway or did she truly believe she had done a great job?.
Diana is a wonderful singer and can interpret a song like no other. Having said that i think she lacks a natural musical instinct that a producer has to have.

I honestly don't know if she thought she had done a good job on those two albums. I suspect not but both rca and her wanted to deliver an album asap to cash in on the Chic album and of course Endless Love. Quincy was not yet available and it would have been very difficult to hire a top notch producer on such short notice.
Had wdffil flopped she may well have called on Quincy or even Michael Jackson to oversee the follow up , but because it was a success she pressed ahead and produced another remarkably unremarkable album. What more is there to say?

[Guy]

I honestly don't know if she thought she had done a good job on those two albums. I suspect not but both rca and her wanted to deliver an album asap to cash in on the Chic album and of course Endless Love. Quincy was not yet available and it would have been very difficult to hire a top notch producer on such short notice.
Had wdffil flopped she may well have called on Quincy or even Michael Jackson to oversee the follow up , but because it was a success she pressed ahead and produced another remarkably unremarkable album. What more is there to say?

Ashford and Simpson? They could have helped with good songs, cohesion and pop crossover dreams. It wasn't strictly the production with the RCA albums. The songs were either subpar or a poor fit for Ross. So much so that when she did finally utilize solid producers -- Gary Katz, Ray Parker Jr., etc. -- the end-product still underwhelmed.

I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.

Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.

[Roberta75]

They said that because Mary Wilson had 2 babies between 1977-79 that was no excuse for her not working more on her career during those years:

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...ry+Wilson+1977

Digging in the archives is great fun. This blast from the past always makes me laugh real loud.

"Originally Posted by marv2 October 2016
I don't even go into most Diana Ross threads on here."

[jobeterob]

Cashbox and Record World had larger sales components than Billboard who relied more on radio play than the other two

When Taraborelli re wrote Call Her Miss Ross he deleted all his sales information. I’ve always wondered if he found out it was unreliable

[Guy]

Digging in the archives is great fun. This blast from the past always makes me laugh real loud.

"Originally Posted by marv2 October 2016
I don't even go into most Diana Ross threads on here."

But there are like 7 billion Ross threads, so it could be true that he does not go to "most."

[midnightman]

Cashbox and Record World had larger sales components than Billboard who relied more on radio play than the other two

When Taraborelli re wrote Call Her Miss Ross he deleted all his sales information. I’ve always wondered if he found out it was unreliable

That's true!

[jobeterob]

But there are like 7 billion Ross threads, so it could be true that he does not go to "most."

Could but it isn’t; he’s on every Ross thread

[Ollie9]

I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.
Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.

I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.

[florence]

Cashbox and Record World had larger sales components than Billboard who relied more on radio play than the other two

When Taraborelli re wrote Call Her Miss Ross he deleted all his sales information. I’ve always wondered if he found out it was unreliable

Or he could have been threatened with Legal Action.

Apparently he had been supplied with many figures by an insider at Motown.

They may very well be unreliable but my personal hunch is that they were correct. Unless someone was very clever and took a long time to compile them because they stand up to scrutiny relative to each other.

However, no way of knowing you have to decide for yourself.

[RanRan79]

then we approach the mid 80s and she's now 40 years old. she might have been panicked a bit by the arrival of the new female pop stars and so she desperately attempts to be trendy with her music

That's the reason I usually give. She was trying to compete with the girls who wished they could be her. What a shame. The lady has always been competitive, but you would think at that point in her life she'd be past trying to compete and just be herself. Most of that RCA stuff was not artistically Diana. It was Diana trying to make a buck and the music suffered.

[RanRan79]

TOUCH BY TOUCH from the Swept Away album.

Thanks Reese. That's the one.

she also did Eaten Alive on the AMA's. at least with this version you can hear the lyrics, as non-sensicle as they are

With the exception of Diana coming into the song too early during a part, I thought her performance here was pretty good. It's actually the reason I started liking the song. I liked the video as a kid, but as an adult I thought the song was stupid until I saw her do it live.

But the fact that she was doing songs from two albums that were no longer worth promoting [[I'm sure there's a certain amount of logic here, that no matter how much time has passed, promoting an album may still result in some additional sales which equals a few extra dollars) makes no sense. I kind'a get "Eaten Alive" as that was the last song to that point that a large percentage of the audience and viewing audience probably remembered from her, but "Touch By Touch"? Why not "Missing You"? Or even "Swept Away"? Hell, if she wanted to further promote the EA album, why not do "Chain Reaction"? Or she could have done a big hit from the year if that artist wasn't at the ceremony.

[RanRan79]

Diana is a wonderful singer and can interpret a song like no other. Having said that i think she lacks a natural musical instinct that a producer has to have.

1000 percent agree. Producing just isn't her strong point. I think she's a producer's dream as a vocalist. She should've milked that.

[RanRan79]

Ashford and Simpson? They could have helped with good songs, cohesion and pop crossover dreams. It wasn't strictly the production with the RCA albums. The songs were either subpar or a poor fit for Ross. So much so that when she did finally utilize solid producers -- Gary Katz, Ray Parker Jr., etc. -- the end-product still underwhelmed.

I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.

Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.

I think "Mirror, Mirror" was as good as the Chic stuff, and it resonated with the public because it was hip and a good fit. Of course I cannot explain how "Fools" the single became a hit, other than suggesting that for the first single Diana could've done anything and the public would've ate it up. "Mirror", the track to "Work That Body" [[not to be confused with the lyrics to "Work That Body"), "Swept Away", "Missing You" and even "Chain Reaction" were worthy of Ross' talents. She needed more hits that were worthy and she needed full albums that were worthy. She lucked up on a few worthy singles here and there but just never cut anything like the 1970 debut, Surrender, TMITM, the Hangover album, BIM, The Boss or the Chic album, all bonafide classics. Her RCA albums will never be spoken about like those Motown ones because the qualities of the two sets are ridiculously set too far apart.

[RanRan79]

Could but it isn’t; he’s on every Ross thread

Then he's in good company with all the ones who swear up and down that they have no interest in Mary Wilson yet somehow indeed up in most of the threads with her name in the title. At this point there's really nothing to see here.

[RanRan79]

I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.

I agree [[except for "Summertime"). I'll have to think about album cuts that are as or near as brilliant as her Motown stuff, but I'm not sure I'll be able to come up with anything.

[reese]

Thanks Reese. That's the one.



With the exception of Diana coming into the song too early during a part, I thought her performance here was pretty good. It's actually the reason I started liking the song. I liked the video as a kid, but as an adult I thought the song was stupid until I saw her do it live.

But the fact that she was doing songs from two albums that were no longer worth promoting [[I'm sure there's a certain amount of logic here, that no matter how much time has passed, promoting an album may still result in some additional sales which equals a few extra dollars) makes no sense. I kind'a get "Eaten Alive" as that was the last song to that point that a large percentage of the audience and viewing audience probably remembered from her, but "Touch By Touch"? Why not "Missing You"? Or even "Swept Away"? Hell, if she wanted to further promote the EA album, why not do "Chain Reaction"? Or she could have done a big hit from the year if that artist wasn't at the ceremony.

I was baffled by the choice of TOUCH BY TOUCH as an opening number for the 1987 AMAs as well, even though I enjoyed the performance. But she didn't have a current album to promote. EATEN ALIVE was more than a year old at that point and she had already performed the title track as well as CHAIN REACTION at the previous year's ceremony when they were still recent releases. The MISSING YOU video was shown the year before that.

I do think it was nice for the 1987 awards that she did a group of Billie Holiday songs, even though I think the segment went a tad too long. Maybe a nice Supremes medley could have opened the show that year.

[Guy]

I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.

I am going to have to disagree, Ollie9. I am not talking about the Motown filler. Nothing she recorded at RCA is the equal of the finest moments at Motown. Nothing.

She had enjoyable moments at RCA. I love "Telephone" but it is not the equal of "The Boss." "Summertime" is no more exquisite than "Friend To Friend" or "Do You Know Where You're Going To." "Muscles" can't compete with "Love Hangover."

Her best moments at RCA were those that were vaguely reminiscent of her Motown output [["Let's Go Up", "Missing You", etc.) Her worst moments were when she was trying to be someone other than Diana Ross [[ "Fool For Your Love", "We Are The Children...", etc.)

[Guy]

I think "Mirror, Mirror" was as good as the Chic stuff...

HERESY!!!!

I like you, RanRan79. So I am going to pretend like you never said that.

[RanRan79]

I was baffled by the choice of TOUCH BY TOUCH as an opening number for the 1987 AMAs as well, even though I enjoyed the performance. But she didn't have a current album to promote. EATEN ALIVE was more than a year old at that point and she had already performed the title track as well as CHAIN REACTION at the previous year's ceremony when they were still recent releases. The MISSING YOU video was shown the year before that.

I do think it was nice for the 1987 awards that she did a group of Billie Holiday songs, even though I think the segment went a tad too long. Maybe a nice Supremes medley could have opened the show that year.

I don't recall seeing the Billie Holiday spot. I'll have to look for it and return with my commentary.

[RanRan79]

I am going to have to disagree, Ollie9. I am not talking about the Motown filler. Nothing she recorded at RCA is the equal of the finest moments at Motown. Nothing.

She had enjoyable moments at RCA. I love "Telephone" but it is not the equal of "The Boss." "Summertime" is no more exquisite than "Friend To Friend" or "Do You Know Where You're Going To." "Muscles" can't compete with "Love Hangover."

Her best moments at RCA were those that were vaguely reminiscent of her Motown output [["Let's Go Up", "Missing You", etc.) Her worst moments were when she was trying to be someone other than Diana Ross [[ "Fool For Your Love", "We Are The Children...", etc.)

IMO "Mirror, Mirror", "Swept Away", and "Missing You" was better than "Reach Out I'll Be There", "My Mistake", "Last Time I Saw Him", "Theme From Mahogany" [[a song I LOATH), "Your Love Is So Good For Me", and "One More Chance". As fantastic as Diana's Motown tenure was, let us not forget she didn't always lay golden eggs. Some of that stuff stunk too. [[Not that all the songs I listed "stink", but I do believe my fav RCA cuts are better overall songs than the Motown singles I just listed.)

Believe it or not, I actually love "Fool For Your Love", but that's in spite of the fact that it was not a direction Ross needed to be moving into. But I do love that it further illustrated her ability to sing it all.

[RanRan79]

HERESY!!!!

I like you, RanRan79. So I am going to pretend like you never said that.

LOL Come on now. You gotta like me even when you think I make no sense.

Well first you have to consider that I am not a fan of the Chic sound for anyone, although I concede that commercially it worked for Diana. But "Mirror, Mirror" has a great lyric, a great chorus, the track is funky, which is exactly where Ross needed to be after what she had done with Chic. Yeah, "Mirror, Mirror" isn't second rate. It's the first first rate thing she did at RCA. Unfortunately she rarely duplicated it.

[vgalindo]

Thanks Reese. That's the one.



With the exception of Diana coming into the song too early during a part, I thought her performance here was pretty good. It's actually the reason I started liking the song. I liked the video as a kid, but as an adult I thought the song was stupid until I saw her do it live.

But the fact that she was doing songs from two albums that were no longer worth promoting [[I'm sure there's a certain amount of logic here, that no matter how much time has passed, promoting an album may still result in some additional sales which equals a few extra dollars) makes no sense. I kind'a get "Eaten Alive" as that was the last song to that point that a large percentage of the audience and viewing audience probably remembered from her, but "Touch By Touch"? Why not "Missing You"? Or even "Swept Away"? Hell, if she wanted to further promote the EA album, why not do "Chain Reaction"? Or she could have done a big hit from the year if that artist wasn't at the ceremony.

She did do Chain Reaction on the show as well. I do agree though. I really didn’t know why she did “Touch by touch” since it wasn’t even a single. I guess it was chosen because it fit for the big opening with all the dancers and props.

[Guy]

IMO "Mirror, Mirror", "Swept Away", and "Missing You" was better than "Reach Out I'll Be There", "My Mistake", "Last Time I Saw Him", "Theme From Mahogany" [[a song I LOATH), "Your Love Is So Good For Me", and "One More Chance". As fantastic as Diana's Motown tenure was, let us not forget she didn't always lay golden eggs. Some of that stuff stunk too. [[Not that all the songs I listed "stink", but I do believe my fav RCA cuts are better overall songs than the Motown singles I just listed.)

Believe it or not, I actually love "Fool For Your Love", but that's in spite of the fact that it was not a direction Ross needed to be moving into. But I do love that it further illustrated her ability to sing it all.

Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.

Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.

P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."

[khansperac]

Mirror mirror was always a part of her shows up until the 2000’s. Then she dropped it. I believe she sang it this year at her birthday gig. Missing you was also always in her act. She only sometimes does it now. Those 2 plus fools were the guaranteed RCA songs she would sing.

[reese]

Many of the RCA songs like MIRROR, MIRROR, CHAIN REACTION, and MISSING YOU were dropped when her show's running length became shorter. Ditto for ENDLESS LOVE and most numbers from LADY besides DON'T EXPLAIN.

I also think she does the songs that accommodate her current register. The last time I heard her sing MIRROR MIRROR, MISSING YOU, and ENDLESS LOVE in concert, I noticed the keys were lower.

[Bluebrock]

Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.

Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.

P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."

In agree with you about "reach out i'll be there'. It is one of Diana's most committed vocal performances and Nick and Val's production is quite sublime.
slightly off topic, it was Luther Vandross's personal favorite performance by Diana so we are in exhalted company!

[Ollie9]

I am going to have to disagree, Ollie9. I am not talking about the Motown filler. Nothing she recorded at RCA is the equal of the finest moments at Motown. Nothing.

She had enjoyable moments at RCA. I love "Telephone" but it is not the equal of "The Boss." "Summertime" is no more exquisite than "Friend To Friend" or "Do You Know Where You're Going To." "Muscles" can't compete with "Love Hangover."

Her best moments at RCA were those that were vaguely reminiscent of her Motown output [["Let's Go Up", "Missing You", etc.) Her worst moments were when she was trying to be someone other than Diana Ross [[ "Fool For Your Love", "We Are The Children...", etc.)

I would add "Telephone" "More And More" and "Love Will Make It Right to songs that i think stand up well to many of her motown recordings.
I disagree in that i find "Summertime" as exquisite as many of her motown classics and "Telephone" as good as any of the songs on the diana album.
Worst songs for me are the vanilla pop confections as in "Anywhere You Run To", "Never To Late" "Two Can Make It" "Children".....Aghhhh.

[RanRan79]

Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.

The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.

Perhaps, but that can't be used as evidence of those RCA songs being deemed of less quality than her Motown songs. Those songs have been in her act since leaving RCA. When's the last time she did "Someday We'll Be Together"? Or "Surrender"? Or "I Thought It Took A Little"? And certainly none of those songs are of any less quality than stuff like "I Will Survive" which Diana performs as if she was the one who had a hit with it. I think her RCA period is often left for the history books as opposed to Diana's shows because we fans generally regard the music as forgettable. As I said before, most of it was second rate- some even third rate- to most of what she recorded at Motown. But for me there are exceptions to that rule.

Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

I absolutely agree about "Reach Out I'll Be There". One of Diana's finest vocal performances. Maybe I should've left it off the list because I can see how my opinion of it might have been confusing, but it was on the list because it was a horrible choice as a single, unlike the songs I highlighted at RCA which were perfect choices. As for the magic of Ross, I guess when one hears the magic it's always a subjective time. Those songs I mentioned as being A quality RCA cuts, IMO, can't be quality unless Diana's magic is present. That's key to me loving any Ross song, regardless of record label.

P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."

Add me in for "Shockwaves" also Guy.

[Guy]

In agree with you about "reach out i'll be there'. It is one of Diana's most committed vocal performances and Nick and Val's production is quite sublime.
slightly off topic, it was Luther Vandross's personal favorite performance by Diana so we are in exhalted company!

Bluebrock, thanks for that info. Luther is never off-topic as far as I'm concerned. He was a Ross connoisseur, and his talent for background vocal arrangement and execution is legendary. So hearing that he loved ROIBT made my day. We are indeed in esteemed company.

[midnightman]

The rearrangement of ROIBT fits what Luther did with his covers so that is no surprise to me at all. It is one of Diana's greatest recordings as a solo artist! It deserves to be as big of a hit as ANMHE was. Motown dropped the ball on this. Should've been way up than it was.

[jobeterob]

Many of the RCA songs like MIRROR, MIRROR, CHAIN REACTION, and MISSING YOU were dropped when her show's running length became shorter. Ditto for ENDLESS LOVE and most numbers from LADY besides DON'T EXPLAIN.

I also think she does the songs that accommodate her current register. The last time I heard her sing MIRROR MIRROR, MISSING YOU, and ENDLESS LOVE in concert, I noticed the keys were lower.

I believe this offers a lot of explanation for song choices she has made for her current concerts

[Bluebrock]

Bluebrock, thanks for that info. Luther is never off-topic as far as I'm concerned. He was a Ross connoisseur, and his talent for background vocal arrangement and execution is legendary. So hearing that he loved ROIBT made my day. We are indeed in esteemed company.

You are most welcome Guy. I am sure Luther would have produced a strong album on Diana. He had a couple of classic songs in mind for her to cover but i cannot recall what they were without consulting my diaries which are currently stored away. He also intended to include a duet between the two legends. It is so frustrating that she was having none of it. You only need to listen to the beautiful "it's hard for me to say" to get a glimpse of what sweet music they could have made together.

[florence]

In the end it's all a matter of personal taste.

Yes, the Motown albums on the whole performed better than the RCA output but give me Silk Electric, Swept Away or Eaten Alive any time over many of the Motown ones such as diana.

I loved Upside Down and My Old Piano but the other tracks did little for me even I'm Coming Out - I just the thought the melody was off-key.

I know this is a minority view.

I'm one of the UK public who loved her ballads such as Still In Love, Love Lies or In Your Arms from Silk Electric for example.

EMI in the UK missed some golden opportunities to capitalise on several surefire hits during the 70s.

[Ollie9]

In the end it's all a matter of personal taste.

Yes, the Motown albums on the whole performed better than the RCA output but give me Silk Electric, Swept Away or Eaten Alive any time over many of the Motown ones such as diana.

I loved Upside Down and My Old Piano but the other tracks did little for me even I'm Coming Out - I just the thought the melody was off-key.

I know this is a minority view.

I'm one of the UK public who loved her ballads such as Still In Love, Love Lies or In Your Arms from Silk Electric for example.

EMI in the UK missed some golden opportunities to capitalise on several surefire hits during the 70s.

Had Eaten Alive been the follow up to WDFFIL i think Diana would have scored some hits from the album.
She lost one hell of a lot of momentum following the release of Silk Electric. Everyone i knew at the time thought it awful and the reviews were terrible [[UK). Had it not been for "Muscles" the whole thing would have been a disaster. The album sold quite well simply because Diana was at the peak of her popularity.

[Bluebrock]

Had Eaten Alive been the follow up to WDFFIL i think Diana would have scored some hits from the album.
She lost one hell of a lot of momentum following the release of Silk Electric. Everyone i knew at the time thought it awful and the reviews were terrible [[UK). Had it not been for "Muscles" the whole thing would have been a disaster. The album sold quite well simply because Diana was at the peak of her popularity.

The only positive thing i can say about Silk Electric is that it wasn't quite as bad as Why do Fools . Almost but not quite.

[Bluebrock]

In the end it's all a matter of personal taste.

Yes, the Motown albums on the whole performed better than the RCA output but give me Silk Electric, Swept Away or Eaten Alive any time over many of the Motown ones such as diana.

I loved Upside Down and My Old Piano but the other tracks did little for me even I'm Coming Out - I just the thought the melody was off-key.

I know this is a minority view.

I'm one of the UK public who loved her ballads such as Still In Love, Love Lies or In Your Arms from Silk Electric for example.

EMI in the UK missed some golden opportunities to capitalise on several surefire hits during the 70s.

Minority opinions are every bit as valid as majority opinions Florence.
Your posts are always interesting and informative. Respect to you.

[SatansBlues]

You are most welcome Guy. I am sure Luther would have produced a strong album on Diana. He had a couple of classic songs in mind for her to cover but i cannot recall what they were without consulting my diaries which are currently stored away. He also intended to include a duet between the two legends. It is so frustrating that she was having none of it. You only need to listen to the beautiful "it's hard for me to say" to get a glimpse of what sweet music they could have made together.

I think Luther was probably too much of an R&B artist for DR. Luther was good in his musical lane but did not have the same crossover success as Ross did. I've always viewed Ross as a R&B/Pop hybrid star and recording artist, not pure pop and not a typical R&B artist. There were certain producers who could straddle that line when producing Ross, most specifically Ashford & Simpson. I think Diana Ross has shined the most on songs that make you either want to dance to or sing along to- lead or background. I'm not sure that Luther would have been able to do that for Ross.

[marv2]

I think Luther was probably too much of an R&B artist for DR. Luther was good in his musical lane but did not have the same crossover success as Ross did. I've always viewed Ross as a R&B/Pop hybrid star and recording artist, not pure pop and not a typical R&B artist. There were certain producers who could straddle that line when producing Ross, most specifically Ashford & Simpson. I think Diana Ross has shined the most on songs that make you either want to dance to or sing along to- lead or background. I'm not sure that Luther would have been able to do that for Ross.

Yet Luther worked with Aretha Franklin, Dionne Warwick, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, Richard Marx, etc,etc. Diana Ross is just stupid and has zero talent as a producer. She should have taken Tyler Perry up on his movie offer, no one else wants her!

[TNSUN]

It's Hard for Me to say but I divaly disagree with you on this point.
An album by DR, produced by Luther would have been a delight.
I am grateful for the few gems Luther was involved with DR.
Just imagine a duets album, "Luther and Diana"!
I guess a road to divaville never led to hitsville!

[sup_fan]

It's Hard for Me to say but I divaly disagree with you on this point.
An album by DR, produced by Luther would have been a delight.
I am grateful for the few gems Luther was involved with DR.
Just imagine a duets album, "Luther and Diana"!
I guess a road to divaville never led to hitsville!

it certainly would have been preferred to the Eaten Alive mess. much of that album i find to be un-listenable.

[sup_fan]

In the end it's all a matter of personal taste.

Yes, the Motown albums on the whole performed better than the RCA output but give me Silk Electric, Swept Away or Eaten Alive any time over many of the Motown ones such as diana.

I loved Upside Down and My Old Piano but the other tracks did little for me even I'm Coming Out - I just the thought the melody was off-key.

I know this is a minority view.

I'm one of the UK public who loved her ballads such as Still In Love, Love Lies or In Your Arms from Silk Electric for example.

EMI in the UK missed some golden opportunities to capitalise on several surefire hits during the 70s.

Flo i'm gonna echo Bluebrock's comments. your thoughts here are so interesting. please keep sharing!


I do find her early rca material to be enjoyable. maybe not meeting the lofty standards associated with her final motown content but i don't find WDFFIL and SE to be hideous.

As for diana 80, i enjoy that album a lot and do appreciate the urban sound they achieved. some list it as a DR masterpiece and i would NOT go that far at all. Her performances are fine but no where near the vocal quality and interpretation she did on either Baby It's Me or The Boss. I have diana 80 to be a masterful, calculated move but not an artistic one