What is your favorite SDF Supremes Reunion thread?

[juicefree20]

People posting using dual personalities here?

I don't know, I just can't wrap my head around that concept & it must take a very special person to be able to do that. I could never do that because I have a very distinct way of writing & ther's no way that I wouldn't eventually revert back to type. I have an alter-ego here as a joke & everyone knows that it's me. But doing it just to argue about music is just WAYYYY too deep for me to understand.

[tamla617]

juice
for dual personality read schizophrenia,either that or its the only way they can get "someone" to agree with them.
then find a like minded to do the same and all of a sudden someone has "4" posters against him/her.

[juicefree20]

Now here's another thing that I don't understand...

From what I've surmised, a lot of arguments have continued here over the issue of lying & questions regarding validity of statements made here & elsewhere. I honestly don't understand why anyone should become so worked up over a person who makes specious claims when folks already know that the person maight have tha tendency.

If someone says something that's proven to be a bit less than factual, why the need for constant fights about their credibility or lack thereof? We all know a few people who tell tall tales, hell some of the folks who do this may be family members or friends. Why not simply treat that person as we would that aunt/uncle or friend who always ends up drunk at a party or BBQ & tells us how they used to be a backup dancer for James Brown?

No one's taking that person seriously, so why spend so much energy getting angry with someone who does that here? If that's what they need to do in order to get through life here on Planet Earth, why go through all of that drama again...& again...& again...& again...& again...&...

So long as their tales don't harm anyone or has created a problem for any specific individual, then I really don't see what all of the ruckus is about. Seriously, if folks have already deduced that a individual is posting here incognito & is giving tidbits, then you're already ahead of the game because you know how to deal with them & most important of all, how to deal with them.

In the real world, most here would most likely either ignore such a person & simply avoid them. I can guarantee you the very few people here would engage in these hostilities over such inane bullshit, if standing face-to-face with that person. They wouldn't because it could lead to a fight, someone might get their butt kicked & behind such silliness, a fight nor a potential hospital visit simply isn't worth it, all because someone wants to prove a point...

A point that they & others already knew.

I guess that the best way to handle a situation such as that is to point out that what that individual has to say simply can't be trusted, then move on & let that revelation work its magic. But that never happens here. People continue to beat the same damn situation into the ground, constantly refer to the situation in threads which have absolutely nothing to do with the offense & I'd argue that THAT'S even more annoying than the initial lie. I feel that way because I've seen how constant referral to these offenses have destroyed a lot of threads which have been created by INNOCENT forum members, who then have to watch their threads go up in smoke because 5 or 6 people feel the need to bicker whenever or wherever their names happen to meet & have no respect for the forumer who created those threads.

And THAT'S unfair to the creator of the thread, as well as those who might actually want to discuss the thread, as well as those who may have something to learn from them.

[Roberta75]

I don't believe that, but if it were the case doesn't he have the right to be a member here and post comments without being personally attacked day in and day out?

Excuse me but topdiva Turner is the one who does the attacking, He has lied to boost his own popularity, relentlessly hurled around false details about someone's mother's passing which was both personal and painful to smark21. He shamelessly brings up Tony Turner [[who most know really is topdiva) in almost every thread and in general is mean and unpleasant.

BTW.......I thought you were placing me on ignore marv2?

[juicefree20]

I also believe that folks need to stop following one another through threads & referring to things which have nothing to do with the thread that they're commenting in. Society would classify such behavior as "stalking", but where I live, it's called "s&%t-stirring" & hen done in the real worls, it can often have severe consequences.

If "stalking" isn't tolerated in society, then it shouldn't be tolerated here, because it always leads to fights that are continually replayed like "Groundhog Day".

Something really has to be done about this constant unnecessary bickering & I guess that means getting it at the root. I've never been one for banning & I really don't understand how folks living in the world in which we live would allow themselves to be spooked off so badly by a few "bad" apples, that they feel the need to leave here. There's no way that I would leave here because of the arguments of 5 or 6 people which really has nothing to do with me. Seems a bit thin-skinned to me because the real world is a whole lot tougher than most things found here. Hell, I recently ran across a forum whose sole existence is to watch the forum that they once belonged to, then bash just about everyone in it & pretty viciously, at that.

I don't believe that we're quite that bad here.

My suggestion would be that if there's anyone here who continually stalks anyone in any thread & constantly calls someone out in a thread using nonsense & incidents which have nothing to do with that particular thread, then they should be gone. It's one thing to have a disagreement about something said within the scope of a thread, about the subject matter of THAT particular thread. But constantly dragging in crap & issues from other situations into threads that have nothing to do with it, is BAITING.

Point blank!

Although the person doing it feels that they're justified for doing so with the intent of sharing revelations, but the reality is that it's not the "liar" whom they're referring to who's creating a problem in that case, THEY'RE creating the problem by pursuing an argument which has no relation to the thread.

So, I guess that it comes down to agendas & who feels that their own agenda should take precedent over that of another.

Some of us have gone back & forth here for years. We get hot, we get pissed & then we move on & that's how it should be. But if there's anyone here so self-centered about pursuing their own argumentative agenda[[s) & too damn immature as to be able to reign themselves in, then they don't need to be here & deserved to be banned.

NO ONE should have a 6 year argument over the same damn thing & they need to do so, then they just need to do it somewhere else.

And we older folks constantly dog the kids for being stupid, out of control, disrespectful & damn near everything else negative under the sun, yet some of us can't even communicate on a MUSIC FORUM without acting like this.

And most of us are damn near grandparents, or over the age or 40 or 50.

What was that about the kids again?

[marv2]

Excuse me but topdiva Turner is the one who does the attacking, He has lied to boost his own popularity, relentlessly hurled around false details about someone's mother's passing which was both personal and painful to smark21. He shamelessly brings up Tony Turner [[who most know really is topdiva) in almost every thread and in general is mean and unpleasant.

BTW.......I thought you were placing me on ignore marv2?

Not quite yet since you have stopped reciting Holy Scripture here at least for the moment. Did you know that there is a feature here on the forum where you can click a button and all of an individuals postings, comments will show up in chronological order? Did you know that? It is very easy to illustrate what I was saying in regards to the "TopDiva" fights!

I've had to endure being questioned about MY 50th Motown Anniversary Special after explaining it was a subject that I was not authorized to discuss in a public forum, so one member decided to "ask me " about it virturally everyday for a couple of years regardless of what the subject matter was of the thread. Anyone else remember this?

I have recently been called a racist on this forum out of the blue, in a thread where I had not even posted a word.

Like Soulster mentioned, I have been threatened with great physical harm once while paying bills on AOL, I got a pop up instant message from an overzealous "Diana Ross" fan threating me and my family. I've seen it all. I know about trouble makers and people that come onto this forum with the sole motivation to disrupt it, slander those that do not agree with them and to attempt to ultimately destroy this forum by running people away that simply enjoy discussing music, memories and sharing stories etc.

I have had friends, some prominent, some just regular music loving folks that have read this forum and postings ask me "why are they saying that?" or "what does that person mean by this?" I have to spend time explaining the background for a lot of this BS that goes on to people that would otherwise join in the discussions here. I have seen a lot and have learned a lot over the 8 years I've been on this forum. Ralph does a GREAT job and he cannot be commended enough for that.

I've learned that whenever a forum member starts out by presenting themselves in a very specific way, i.e. discussing their "profession/job", "their family" and other personal information in order to build a "public character image" here that they are more than likely a "ringer" here to cause trouble and has only passing interest in the music or the artists that we discuss here. This just a small portion of my take on "what's happening today at SDF".

[marv2]

I also believe that folks need to stop following one another through threads & referring to things which have nothing to do with the thread that they're commenting in. Society would classify such behavior as "stalking", but where I live, it's called "s&%t-stirring" & hen done in the real worls, it can often have severe consequences.

If "stalking" isn't tolerated in society, then it shouldn't be tolerated here, because it always leads to fights that are continually replayed like "Groundhog Day".

Something really has to be done about this constant unnecessary bickering & I guess that means getting it at the root. I've never been one for banning & I really don't understand how folks living in the world in which we live would allow themselves to be spooked off so badly by a few "bad" apples, that they feel the need to leave here. There's no way that I would leave here because of the arguments of 5 or 6 people which really has nothing to do with me. Seems a bit thin-skinned to me because the real world is a whole lot tougher than most things found here. Hell, I recently ran across a forum whose sole existence is to watch the forum that they once belonged to, then bash just about everyone in it & pretty viciously, at that.

I don't believe that we're quite that bad here.

My suggestion would be that if there's anyone here who continually stalks anyone in any thread & constantly calls someone out in a thread using nonsense & incidents which have nothing to do with that particular thread, then they should be gone. It's one thing to have a disagreement about something said within the scope of a thread, about the subject matter of THAT particular thread. But constantly dragging in crap & issues from other situations into threads that have nothing to do with it, is BAITING.

Point blank!

Although the person doing it feels that they're justified for doing so with the intent of sharing revelations, but the reality is that it's not the "liar" whom they're referring to who's creating a problem in that case, THEY'RE creating the problem by pursuing an argument which has no relation to the thread.

So, I guess that it comes down to agendas & who feels that their own agenda should take precedent over that of another.

Some of us have gone back & forth here for years. We get hot, we get pissed & then we move on & that's how it should be. But if there's anyone here so self-centered about pursuing their own argumentative agenda[[s) & too damn immature as to be able to reign themselves in, then they don't need to be here & deserved to be banned.

NO ONE should have a 6 year argument over the same damn thing & they need to do so, then they just need to do it somewhere else.

And we older folks constantly dog the kids for being stupid, out of control, disrespectful & damn near everything else negative under the sun, yet some of us can't even communicate on a MUSIC FORUM without acting like this.

And most of us are damn near grandparents, or over the age or 40 or 50.

What was that about the kids again?

The "Groundhog's Day" comparison is so right on! Especially when I relate it to my basically being stalked around the forum by a former member here about "MY 50th Motown Anniversary Special" and attempts to slander me by trying to portray me as a liar! This was all from someone I have never met, does not know me and has no professional or personal right to any of my business. This went on and on and on for a very long time. In the REAL World, this person would have been lying on their back coughing up teeth, but since this is cyberspace and people have the ability to talk sheet from behind the safety of their computers they do it often and with confidence that there will be no repercussions.

[Roberta75]

Not quite yet since you have stopped reciting Holy Scripture here at least for the moment. Did you know that there is a feature here on the forum where you can click a button and all of an individuals postings, comments will show up in chronological order? Did you know that? It is very easy to illustrate what I was saying in regards to the "TopDiva" fights!

I've had to endure being questioned about MY 50th Motown Anniversary Special after explaining it was a subject that I was not authorized to discuss in a public forum, so one member decided to "ask me " about it virturally everyday for a couple of years regardless of what the subject matter was of the thread. Anyone else remember this?

I have recently been called a racist on this forum out of the blue, in a thread where I had not even posted a word.

Like Soulster mentioned, I have been threatened with great physical harm once while paying bills on AOL, I got a pop up instant message from an overzealous "Diana Ross" threating me and my family. I've seen it all. I know about trouble makers and people that come onto this forum with the sole motivation to disrupt it, slander those that do not agree with them and to attempt to ultimately destroy this forum by running people away that simply enjoy discussing music, memories and sharing stories etc.

I have had friends, some prominent, some just regular music loving folks that have read this forum and postings ask me "why are they saying that?" or "what does that person mean by this?" I have to spend time explaining the background for a lot of this BS that goes on to people that would otherwise join in the discussions here. I have seen a lot and have learned a lot over the 8 years I've been on this forum. Ralph does a GREAT job and he cannot be commended enough for that.

I've learned that whenever a forum member starts out by presenting themselves in a very specific way, i.e. discussing their "professional/job", "their family" and other personal information in order to build a "public character image" here that they are more than likely a "ringer" here to cause trouble and has only passing interest in the music or the artist that we discuss here. This just a small portion of my take on "what's happening today at SDF".

And while you are certainly entitled to you own opinions marv2. I respectfully request that you place me on ignore. I know nothing about your past specials or your threats on aol, but based on my time here I can see that you can sling mud with the best of them. In saying that I wish you good health and peace.

[juicefree20]

Roberta...

I've already acknowledge that what was done to Smark was wrong & I doubt that anyone would disagree with that. As regards his/her "attacks" on people, that pendulum has swung both way & if anyone chooses to be honest, then they'll have to admit that as well.

Excuse me but topdiva Turner is the one who does the attacking, He has lied to boost his own popularity

If in fact you know that TopDiva was/is Tony Turner [[how, I really don't know), then who cares whether he lies to boost his own popularity? Why is that so important & more than that, why is it so important that it should turn every topic of discussion into World War III?

People are dying in wars, food & gas prices are about to break our bank accounts, people are floating down their streets in canoes, but we should worry on an internet music forum about whether TopDiva, Tony Turner or a basket weaver is lying in order to be a big fish HERE?

Were you ever upset because we were told that Michael Jackson was 9 when he was actually 11? Were you ever upset because the press releases didn't credit Bobby Taylor nor Gladys Knight for discovering The Jackson 5? If lying to boost ones popularity iis the standard for disliking people, then I guess that we'd all better prepare to start burning a whole lot of records & renounce some of our heroes because books, interviews & articles have made it quite clear that a WHOLE LOT of lying & stretching of truth occurred in the entertainment field.

As I know none of the participants on a personal level, I'm more concerned about the fairness of ALL parties. With that said & I'm not trying to be funny, but as a Christian, what have you done to help to heal the situation?

[Roberta75]

Roberta...

I've already acknowledge that what was done to Smark was wrong & I doubt that anyone would disagree with that. As regards his/her "attacks" on people, that pendulum has swung both way & if anyone chooses to be honest, then they'll have to admit that as well.



If in fact you know that TopDiva was/is Tony Turner [[how, I really don't know), then who cares whether he lies to boost his own popularity? Why is that so important & more than that, why is it so important that it should turn every topic of discussion into World War III?

People are dying in wars, food & gas prices are about to break our bank accounts, people are floating down their streets canoes, but we should worry on an internet music forum whether TopDiva, Tony Turner or a basket weaver is lying in order to be a big fish HERE?

Were you ever upset because we were told that Michael Jackson was 9 when he was actually 11? Were you ever upset because the press releases didn't credit Bobby Taylor nor Gladys Knight for discovering The Jackson 5? If lying to boost ones popularity iis the standard for disliking people, then I guess that we'd all better prepare to start burning a whole lot of records & renounce some of our heroes because books, interviews & articles have made it quite clear that a WHOLE LOT of lying & stretching of truth occurred in the entertainment field.

As I know none of the participants on a personal level, I'm more concerned about the fairness of ALL parties. With that said & I'm not trying to be funny, but as a Christian, what have you done to help to heal the situation?

I have offered prayers and words from the bible which is greatest book ever written in my opinion. Lying and stretching
the truth is sinful in the entertainment business, the coal mining business and every other business for that matter.
I happen to believe and live by the following words "To thine own self be true."

Thank you.

Roberta.

[tamla617]

abandoned post!!
that's a 1st
i was going to say something that didnt come out right

[Roberta75]

got another name
one less than a trinity

If you are addressing me sir, then your sarcasm is uncalled for.

[tamla617]

that post was in existence for less than a minute because i abandoned it see post#111
amazed anyone saw it.why did you say addressing you? i wasnt.

[Roberta75]

that post was in existence for less than a minute because i abandoned it see post#111
amazed anyone saw it.why did you say addressing you? i wasnt.

Then I send you my heartfelt apologies. Please forgive me.

Roberta.

[marv2]

abandoned post!!
that's a 1st
i was going to say something that didnt come out right

Awww..... Think about it and come back! hehehehehehe!

[tamla617]

marv
thought about it................................................ ..............................its 11.20 here i gotta start pushing the zzzzzzz's
out! i'll see about it in the daylight!

[marv2]

marv
thought about it................................................ ..............................its 11.20 here i gotta start pushing the zzzzzzz's
out! i'll see about it in the daylight!

You go and get you some sleep. It'll wait. See ya!

Marv

[luke]

You go Juice!! Thanks for your sanity and wisdom!!

[marv2]

You go Juice!! Thanks for your sanity and wisdom!!

He told it, didn't it he? !!!!!!!!!

[juicefree20]

Roberta:

I don't know how long you've been a member here, perhaps you've been here before, or have lurked for awhile.

Me, I'm going on 7 years here & I've seen folks come, seen folks go & have had my share of disagreements wtih various folks for reasons similar to this, about common decency & respect. To me, it simply comes back to the matter of the same old arguments being endlessly replayed. Arguments, which didn't originate here.

As I said, I don't know TopDiva, don't know Tony Turner, don't know who's who, who's here under a new name & save one, have never met any of the usual participants. What I do know is that the 3 or 4 years of nonsensical fights that INNOCENT forumers have had to wade through , having had their threads demolished, CAN BE avoided. They're UNNECESSARY & it's more about people & their own egos. At this point, it's not so much about their love for their favorite Supreme[[s), but more about their intense dislike for ONE ANOTHER. And once again trampling over all that's decent, this behavior played itself out here recently in a memorial thread for Gladys Horton.

When people are so myopic that they can't reign themselves in & show just a little respect in a memorial thread, then to me they're no better than the "liars" whom they're against. After all, if they can point out how the other party is so crass & undignified as to misbehave, then it means that obviously knowing better, they should hold themselves to a higher standard than they would persons whom they regard as common "trash".

Let's be truthful, in the brick & mortar world, do you honestly believe that any of this would be playing out as it does here? In the real world, this wouldn't be happening because someone would've gotten beat-down or killed by now. No one would tolerate this nonsense on a daily basis & inevitably, someone would get hurt. That's the real world. In the real world, no one's going to go at one another as they feel free to do here. For 5 YEARS OR MORE??

The truth is that this has been going on for quite awhile, both sides gives as good as they take & I've come to the conclusion that some actually enjoy beating up on one another. I may be wrong, but it sure appears as though that's how it is. Why would anyone expend so much energy going at one another for any prolonged period of time unless they felt as though they were getting something out of doing so?

Most of us are quick to point out what others have done wrong, while somehow overlooking our own contributions. If we're to be truthful, then we can't say that we're helping cool things down if we follow someone into a thread, then call them a liar or ask them a provocative question which alludes to a lie that they told, in a thread that has nothing to do with that lie.

But just the other day, you did just that to TopDiva. And you did so on a few other occasions as well. It was already established that TopDiva had been caught in a lie, it was stated, restated & people had every right to say whatever they said about it & you'll notice that where before I offered a benefit of the doubt, once you guys got on his/her case, I said nothing further about it. He eventually apologized & I moved on.

You had to know that by calling him out in a different thread & alluding to his "ruse", that you'd receive a negative response in return, thus escalating hostilities. When you do that, you can't sit back speaking about an "attack" because you did something to provoke the attack. I don't condone what he/she did, especially the "trickery" part. But I can't hold him more acountable for his wrongs, than I would that of others.

Lying is wrong, but provocation is wrong as well. You can't toss a rock at someone, then complain about being attacked. I've been reading most of what's been going on, even read some before it was deleted & the blame for all of this is shared by both sides of the fence. And whatever hasn't been deleted from threads or from the archives will certainly prove that.

[Roberta75]

Roberta:

I don't know how long you've been a member here, perhaps you've been here before, or have lurked for awhile.

Me, I'm going on 7 years here & I've seen folks come, seen folks go & have had my share of disagreements wtih various folks for reasons similar to this, about common decency & respect. To me, it simply comes back to the matter of the same old arguments being endlessly replayed. Arguments, which didn't originate here.

As I said, I don't know TopDiva, don't know Tony Turner, don't know who's who, who's here under a new name & save one, have never met any of the usual participants. What I do know is that the 3 or 4 years of nonsensical fights that INNOCENT forumers have had to wade through , having had their threads demolished, CAN BE avoided. They're UNNECESSARY & it's more about people & their own egos. At this point, it's not so much about their love for their favorite Supreme[[s), but more about their intense dislike for ONE ANOTHER. And once again trampling over all that's decent, this behavior played itself out here recently in a memorial thread for Gladys Horton.

When people are so myopic that they can't reign themselves in & show just a little respect in a memorial thread, then to me they're no better than the "liars" whom they're against. After all, if they can point out how the other party is so crass & undignified as to misbehave, then it means that obviously knowing better, they should hold themselves to a higher standard than they would persons whom they regard as common "trash".

Let's be truthful, in the brick & mortar world, do you honestly believe that any of this would be playing out as it does here? In the real world, this wouldn't be happening because someone would've gotten beat-down or killed by now. No one would tolerate this nonsense on a daily basis & inevitably, someone would get hurt. That's the real world. In the real world, no one's going to go at one another as they feel free to do here. For 5 YEARS OR MORE??

The truth is that this has been going on for quite awhile, both sides gives as good as they take & I've come to the conclusion that some actually enjoy beating up on one another. I may be wrong, but it sure appears as that's how it is. Why would anyone expend so much energy going at one another for any prolonged period of time unless they felt as though they were getting something out of doing so?

Most of us are quick to point out what others have done wrong, while somehow overlooking our own contributions. If we're to be truthfull, then we can't say that we're helping cool things down if we follow someone into a thread, then call them a liar or ask them a provocative question which alludes to a lie that they told, in a thread that has nothing to do with that lie.

But just the other day, you did just that to TopDiva. And you did so on a few other occasions as well. It was already established that TopDiva had been caught in a lie, it was stated, restated & people had every right to say whatever they said about it & you'll notice that where before I offered a benefit of the doubt, once you guys got on his/her case, I said nothing further about it. He eventually apologized & I moved on.

You had to know that by calling him out in a different thread & alluding to his "ruse", that you'd receive a negative response in return, thus escalating hostilities. When you do that, you can't sit back speaking about an "attack" because you did something to provoke the attack. I don't condone what he/she did, especially the "trickery" part. But I can't hold him more acountable for his wrongs, than I would that of others.

Lying is wrong, but provocation is wrong as well. You can't toss a rock at someone, then complain about being attacked. I've been reading most of what's been going on, even read some before it was deleted & the blame for all of this is shared by both sides of the fence. And whatever hasn't been deleted from threads or from the archives will certainly prove that.

But it wasn't a ruse juice. it was a deliberate lie. Now I think we've all given topdiva Turner far more attention than she deserves and that includes you. Again I say To Thine Own Self Be True.

[smark21]

Smark,
I did ban TopDiva but then noticed the name on the forum once again. I did a little investigating and saw the person had re-entered using another email addy. I banned that one also, and so far I haven't seen any return. And yes, I am going forward on getting rid of any and all trouble makers here much quicker than before.

I don't know all the mechanics behind the scenes here, but Topdiva was never banned here. Never did I see the word "banned" under his name. Now perhaps you banned someone named "Topdiva" because the one who made the attacks has the user name "TopDiva1", not "TopDiva" so perhaps someone else is "TopDiva" [[who never posts) and they were banned as you confused the two identies? I know membership here is based on email so if one is banned, and they feel the need to rejoin, they have to rejoin under a new user name and their post number starts at zero. If you look at the number of posts Topdiva1 has made, you will see it's well over one thousand. Somehow, I don't think TopDiva1 has put up over a thousand posts in the past few weeks. If there is a log of banned members that you can consult as owner/moderator here, I suggest you consult it and see if you might have banned someone else by mistake. Because as far as I can tell, TopDiva1 was never banned here. And if indeed the wrong person was banned, I hope that going forward you will strive to be very careful and accurate when removing a member.

BTW, Miss Lish and TopDiva1 are not the same person. I know Miss Lish and she has nothing but contempt for TopDiva1. Miss Lish did use to post here as Divalish, but never as TopDiva or TopDiva1.

As for who TopDiva1 may really be, it doesn't really matter. TopDiva1 has no credibility with members here except for the most gullible amongst us. And at this point, I really don't care if you ban TopDiva1 for his antics re: my mother's death. If it had to be done, it should have been done while it was going down. I just hope that going forward you will keep to your word that you will no longer put up with riff raff and remove those who lie or engage in gutter tactics when engaged in disagreement and debate.

[juicefree20]

Roberta & Smark;

Points well taken!

[Roberta75]

Roberta & Smark;

Points well taken!

Thank you juice.

Regards,

Roberta.

[juicefree20]

Roberta:

Anytime at all.

All of the best!

[juicefree20]

Luke & Marv:

Thank you both.

As an outsider & somewhat casual observer who's a bit detached & have no emotions invested in this, I'm just trying to see this from both sides & explaining how others whom are not involved in these things might see them.

I've no favorites & simply wish that folks could get along & if not, simply leave one another along because these fights have proven nothing, nor have they solved a thing.

I guess that i'm just hoping for better.

[soulster]

My head is spinning...

[arrr&bee]

HEY VOICE I LOVE THIS[SUPREMES]STUFF,IT'S PRICELESS IT'S THE THREAD THAT NEVER ENDS[Jai will you stop snooping in this]I'M NOT SNOOPING I'M A GROUPIE,HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE!!!