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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    Can't say for sure, John. Although Phil wasn't given producer credit for The Drifters' "Save The Last Dance For Me", fans have wondered for years if he was involved, as its overall sound is reflective of other pre-Philles recordings with which Phil was involved.

    Yeah, Phil was reportedly the producer on Connie Francis' "Second-Hand Love". It's never discussed much, and in Connie's "Who's Sorry Now" autobiography from the '80s, she discusses many of her releases in detail, although, if memory serves, she never mentions Phil Spector. In fact, Connie was so prolific in her various styles of music, and she was so successful as her albums and singles sold like hotcakes the world over, MGM allowed Connie to choose her own LP tracklists. They even let her produce her own recording sessions, which was unheard of back then for a female singer, although Connie was never credited as producer on any of her releases. If she produced her own sessions, why would she need Phil's help? And the Phil Spector books never discuss it at all, either, other than to list Connie's "Second-Hand Love" in a long list of Phil's productions. I think everybody remains stumped on that one, especially since Connie's record, beautiful as it is!, doesn't contain any of Phil's signature traits.
    I see! Well one thing is certain, looking at the song's label, Spector was involved in writing the song (or was credited for such) with Hank Hunter , a name I've noticed as sharing other writing credits with Spector.



    the arranger is credited as being Mike Lewis and it must be his style we are hearing on the record, don't you think?
    Connie was quite a star wasn't she , another favorite for you Gary?

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    I see! Well one thing is certain, looking at the song's label, Spector was involved in writing the song (or was credited for such) with Hank Hunter , a name I've noticed as sharing other writing credits with Spector.



    the arranger is credited as being Mike Lewis and it must be his style we are hearing on the record, don't you think?
    Connie was quite a star wasn't she , another favorite for you Gary?
    You've been noticing Hank Hunter's name with Phil's! I knew that listing the writers' credits would be beneficial for somebody!

    I can't read the credits on the yellow promo MGM label you provided, but when I pulled up the shiny black MGM stock copy, it doesn't list an arranger. (See attached link.)
    https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F333127297524
    If Mike Lewis is credited as Arranger, it's probably true, although if Connie did the actual producing, she probably reserved the right to override the arranger's charts. I wish I knew the extent to which Connie produced her records but I don't. I do know that Connie had a ton of hits, all of which were high quality. She also recorded her albums and singles in several different languages which increased her worldwide popularity.

    And, yes, John, I Iove Connie Francis! I have all of her 50+ albums of which most are on CD.

  3. #103
    So Gary, some of your tastes are retro , before your time , like Connie Francis and Billy Vaughn. Others? And your interest in them was/is enough to go at 'em in a big way. I admire that. How many artists do you collect this extensively? Your collection must be phenomenal as a result.


    Hey, I got the Mike Lewis info from discogs :

    https://www.discogs.com/composition/f6f95f0e-a946-4688-8390-d955ba444dad-Second-Hand-Love

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    So Gary, some of your tastes are retro , before your time , like Connie Francis and Billy Vaughn. Others? And your interest in them was/is enough to go at 'em in a big way. I admire that. How many artists do you collect this extensively? Your collection must be phenomenal as a result.


    Hey, I got the Mike Lewis info from discogs :

    https://www.discogs.com/composition/f6f95f0e-a946-4688-8390-d955ba444dad-Second-Hand-Love
    HaHa! Thanks for the compliment, John, but Connie Francis and Billy Vaughn weren't before my time! I was born in 1951. Connie and Billy started making it big in the late '50s when I was about 7.

    Who else was I inspired to collect everything of? Elvis Presley. I got on a huge Elvis kick back in the late '80s. Whatever artist or genre of music I embrace, I go for it gung-ho. Phil Spector (Philles), Motown, '70s Philly Soul, '60s Girl Groups, Van McCoy, Disco, '80s-90s Country, and Classical Vocal (Choral & Opera). I have approximately 6,000 CDs in my collection. The trouble is, I'm suddenly realizing that, at my age, I have more CDs than I'll ever have time to play again. Not sure how to deal with this new-found, overwhelming feeling.

    Mike Lewis is certainly an old duffer! I'm surprised at the number of pop and rock groups that he produced -- Crosby, Stills & Nash, Rod Stewart, Julio Iglesias and KC & The Sunshine Band. Who would have ever guessed!

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    HaHa! Thanks for the compliment, John, but Connie Francis and Billy Vaughn weren't before my time! I was born in 1951. Connie and Billy started making it big in the late '50s when I was about 7.

    Who else was I inspired to collect everything of? Elvis Presley. I got on a huge Elvis kick back in the late '80s. Whatever artist or genre of music I embrace, I go for it gung-ho. Phil Spector (Philles), Motown, '70s Philly Soul, '60s Girl Groups, Van McCoy, Disco, '80s-90s Country, and Classical Vocal (Choral & Opera). I have approximately 6,000 CDs in my collection. The trouble is, I'm suddenly realizing that, at my age, I have more CDs than I'll ever have time to play again. Not sure how to deal with this new-found, overwhelming feeling.

    Mike Lewis is certainly an old duffer! I'm surprised at the number of pop and rock groups that he produced -- Crosby, Stills & Nash, Rod Stewart, Julio Iglesias and KC & The Sunshine Band. Who would have ever guessed!
    Hi Gary , Ha , so, no not old! , just a classic , and only four years ahead of me! I guess what I mean by "retro" is that you weren't buying these artists' recordings hot off the presses. Rather you went back and collected what they had previously released at a later date . Right ? And Phil Spector was your first artist/talent whose career you specifically followed as it unfolded ?
    I never went retro with any artist save Al Green , whose older music on BACK UP TRAIN , and GREEN IS BLUES I bought to be complete with his music up until that point , probably when LETS STAY TOGETHER was out. Otherwise I only sought current releases or greatest hits packages by artists.
    Another thing I see differently is you seem to have embraced music pretty consistently throughout your life . yes? I took a huge break ( about twenty five years!) by the mid-late eighties.

    Elvis eh? Wasn't expecting that ! Now that'd be quite a task of a thread to create wouldn't it !!
    I have one of my fondest memories seeing Elvis in Vegas around 1972.
    My family, including my older sister and her husband, went and stayed at the Hilton where he was appearing. That family trip is a strong memory , lounging in the pool.
    Elvis had someone hold up his young daughter who was in the audience and they spotlighted her. It was a supper club setting and my Dad tipped the seater twenty bucks so we'd get a reasonable table . We weren't close but we werent way back either. Probably should've been a fifty! Ha Ha! As Elvis came out ,after doing the long booming intro, I guess my Mom got overly excited and she was howling .... but it was because of a cramp she'd gotten in her big toe. lol!
    He did a great show, we left pleased.
    Do you have an Elvis song that is your favorite Gary? I do , but surely we'll part company on this one?? So many candidates. His catalogue is unbelievable. If you've got 50 CDs of Connie Francis, I shudder to think how many of Elvis!

    Anyway back to Phil Spector. Listening to each song ,as time allows, including this brilliant well known piece:

    PHILLES 119 (Released 11/1963)
    DARLENE LOVE:
    "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)"
    (P. Spector - E. Greenwich - J. Barry)
    Producer: Phil Spector
    Arranger: Jack "Specs" Nitzsche
    https://youtu.be/tNPpBMTeHUI
    b/w


    It made me think of the songs Bonnie Pointer would release on Motown in the late seventies , with all the exuberant percussive elements, a sound I loved, and I couldn't help thinking , too bad someone didn't think of Bonnie doing a remake of this song, would've fit right into the style . Just a special 12" pressing at Christmas time.
    I would've loved it , I know that!
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 08-29-2019 at 03:16 PM.

  6. #106
    A "classic", eh, John! Ha! That's one way to put it!

    Retro? Where Billy was concerned, my purchasing his albums was totally retro. I started buying brand new Still Sealed copies of them in 1969 or 1970 from the closeout bins for next to nothing. And I kept going until I had them all. Connie was partly retro, but not totally. As a kid, I was buying some of Connie's 45s -- one at a time -- as I heard them on the radio. I remember I had "Who's Sorry Now", "Toward The End Of The Day" (Beat-Ballad version), "Many Tears Ago", "Lipstick On Your Collar", "Vacation" "I'm Gonna Be Warm This Winter", and "Your Other Love" on 45s. My obsession with getting all of her LPs/CDs happened in the late 80s, which was when my obsession with Elvis began, although I had his "Jailhouse Rock" 45 EP as a kid, and I heard all of his hits on the radio as I was growing up. I never really appreciated him, though, until the late 80s.

    How cool, John, that you and your family spent a night with Elvis at The Hilton! Lounging at the pool and tipping the guy to get you a good seat are memories that will last you forever! And, especially, how lucky you were to see Elvis perform live! There are people out there who would have given their right arm to have seen that show! Who were Elvis' back-up singers at the time? Was it The Imperials and The Blossoms or was it J.D. Sumner & The Stamps with The Sweet Inspirations? (I should remember this stuff, but I haven't thought about it in a while.)

    Yeah, I've been obsessed with music since I was real little. My parents had a photo of me sitting on the floor playing my "Little Golden Records" (remember those?) by the hour!

    Yes, I remember vividly your love for Al Green! In fact, that's how we met on the "Rhodes-Chalmers-Rhodes" thread!

    I'm not sure whether Bonnie Pointer has the pipes to pull off a Darlene Love track like "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)". Surprisingly, I loved Mariah Carey's version, but I still prefer Phil and Darlene's original Philles version. It would be interesting to hear what Bonnie and Motown might have done with it.

  7. #107
    Or even Johnny Baby Please Come Home (or as a mashup Midnight Johnny Baby Please Come Home.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    After acting as a freelance writer/producer at various record labels, it was in 1961 that Phil Spector formed a business partnership with Lester Sill by setting up his own record label, Philles Records (PHIL + LESter = Philles). [NOTE: Although the spelling suggests a pronunciation like the female name 'Phyllis', everyone I've ever known pronounces it Phillies, like the baseball team, which also explains why many often misspell Philles Records by adding the letter 'i' to the es.]


    I have been wondering for years just how you're supposed to pronounce this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    Phil also should have been signing new groups in order to keep up with the times and the latest trends, but he didn't. Philles slowly went down the tubes -- partly because of that, and partly because the British Invasion knocked the Philles girl groups off the charts. It's sad that Philles died out, while Motown grew up hand in hand with The Beatles and the other British groups.
    O.K. This is something I always wondered about too. The more I would read about Philles, the more I kept thinking, "why did Phil let his groups wither on the vine?" I got the feeling, Phil would lose interest in groups, singers, like The Crystals and Bob B. Soxx and just gave up on trying to keep the momentum going with their careers. When The Ronettes came along, it was as if he put practically all of his eggs into that one basket, save for The Righteous Brothers. It seems Philles became essentially a two-group record label.

    Had Phil Spector not been so autonomous, he may have been able to delegate some of the production work to others. Perhaps that would have helped to keep the other groups going and that may have made Philles a bit stronger entity. Just some thoughts I've had.

    I've only read the first post you made here and already you're giving me plenty to sink my teeth into!

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post

    PHILLES 123 (Released 8/1964) (Withdrawn 2 Weeks Later)
    DARLENE LOVE:
    "Stumble And Fall"
    (P. Spector - V. Poncia - P. Andreoli)
    Producer: Phil Spector
    Arranger: Jack "Specs" Nitzsche
    https://youtu.be/KO1Rxq4d4SM
    b/w
    "(He's A) Quiet Guy"
    (P. Spector - V. Poncia - P. Andreoli)
    Producer: Phil Spector
    Arranger: Jack "Specs" Nitzsche
    https://youtu.be/Gciizyqyg4k

    [NOTE: Darlene Love and The Blossoms had managed to secure a position on the weekly musical TV show "Shindig" as back-up singers for guest recording artists each week. Having just released Darlene's "Stumble And Fall" 45 on Philles 123, Phil informed Darlene that he wanted her to quit "Shindig" and make herself available to him at all times for recording sessions, as necessary. Darlene refused on the grounds that Phil records track after track on her but then never releases them, whereas her "Shindig" gig pays a steady paycheck. Darlene stuck it out with "Shindig", Phil took it as betrayal, and, to punish her, withdrew "Stumble And Fall" within two weeks of its release. To add insult to injury, Phil reassigned Philles 123 to the upcoming Ronettes' "Walking In The Rain" single, as though Darlene's "Stumble And Fall" never existed. Ouch!]
    When I heard "Stumble And Fall", it knocked me out! I really like this one and couldn't understand why Phil would withdraw something this good. Now you've brought out the light on this one. I love Darlene's (and The Blossoms') work on "Shindig!" I've managed to collect, I think, every episode of the show (and I could talk for decades about my love of this show!)

    I often wondered about how their weekly appearances on the show affected their working with Phil. I don't think the Blossoms ever promoted their own records on the show, unless I just haven't seen the espisode(s) yet. I had never known that Phil Spector view Darlene's being on the show as a betrayal. Very interesting.

    Gary, your work here, listing all these records, recording info, etc. is nothing short of amazing. I love your love for this subject!

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    PHILLES X125-136

    PHILLES 135 (Released 6/1967)
    IKE & TINA TURNER:
    "I'll Never Need More Than This"
    (P. Spector, J. Barry, E. Greenwich)
    Lead Vocal: Tina Turner
    Producer: Phil Spector
    Arranger: Jack "Specs" Nitzsche
    https://youtu.be/Gx2BoL07HJ0
    (heavy, HEAVY sighs!) This one song by Tina, for me, ranks right up there with "River Deep", but for different reasons. "River" leaves me gasping for air whenever I play it. It's such a rush of adrenaline, like being caught up in an aural whirlpool, that I always feel like I was hit by several freight trains at once.

    "I'll Never Need More Than This", on the other hand, is a sneaky little devil of a song. It doesn't beat you over the head but instead, it seems to just play on something much deeper; almost a sort of subliminal mind game. This one burrows deep into me. I've never had hash brownies, but I have the feeling the effect is very much like hearing this song: an odd sort of dream-like feeling where you're not even sure if you're dreaming or not.

    The chorus, choir of singers behind Tina sounds like Phil somehow got two football stadiums full of people singing onto tape. Their sound is pure joy and euphoria and when the song gets to the end- one stadium, full of singers just grooving on their mountainous "ahhhhhs" while the second stadium packed with singers jamming on singing "wish this could go on forever"...and I really do wish they could just go on forever singing that refrain.

    This record is pure rapture.

    And thanks for including links to youtube for each song!

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    When I heard "Stumble And Fall", it knocked me out! I really like this one and couldn't understand why Phil would withdraw something this good. Now you've brought out the light on this one. I love Darlene's (and The Blossoms') work on "Shindig!" I've managed to collect, I think, every episode of the show (and I could talk for decades about my love of this show!)

    I often wondered about how their weekly appearances on the show affected their working with Phil. I don't think the Blossoms ever promoted their own records on the show, unless I just haven't seen the espisode(s) yet. I had never known that Phil Spector view Darlene's being on the show as a betrayal. Very interesting.

    Gary, your work here, listing all these records, recording info, etc. is nothing short of amazing. I love your love for this subject!
    Thank you very much for your kind words, Waiting. It's acknowledgment and compliments like yours that keep me going. And, believe me, there's still a lot more to come and more work to do! I'm nearly finished compiling Phil Spector - Part C - "Rare & Unreleased Philles Plus" which I'm really excited about!

    You are the umpteenth person who has said the same thing and raved about Darlene's "Stumble And Fall" recently. I believe that if people had been given a chance to hear it on the radio, it might have been the hit that Phil was desperately in need of at the time. But, withdrawing it to get back at Darlene was merely cutting off his own nose to spite his face. Again, Phil was, at times, his own worst enemy.

    I always loved those Shindig shows with Darlene and The Blossoms. In addition to backing up other artists on the show, they were usually given one song to sing on their own, but I don't remember it ever being one of their own Philles songs. The performance I remember most was when they sang The Velvelettes' "Needle In A Haystack". I can still see their finger movements like sewing with a needle and thread! Real good stuff!
    Last edited by Philles/Motown Gary; 08-31-2019 at 07:38 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    (heavy, HEAVY sighs!) This one song by Tina, for me, ranks right up there with "River Deep", but for different reasons. "River" leaves me gasping for air whenever I play it. It's such a rush of adrenaline, like being caught up in an aural whirlpool, that I always feel like I was hit by several freight trains at once.

    "I'll Never Need More Than This", on the other hand, is a sneaky little devil of a song. It doesn't beat you over the head but instead, it seems to just play on something much deeper; almost a sort of subliminal mind game. This one burrows deep into me. I've never had hash brownies, but I have the feeling the effect is very much like hearing this song: an odd sort of dream-like feeling where you're not even sure if you're dreaming or not.

    The chorus, choir of singers behind Tina sounds like Phil somehow got two football stadiums full of people singing onto tape. Their sound is pure joy and euphoria and when the song gets to the end- one stadium, full of singers just grooving on their mountainous "ahhhhhs" while the second stadium packed with singers jamming on singing "wish this could go on forever"...and I really do wish they could just go on forever singing that refrain.

    This record is pure rapture.

    And thanks for including links to youtube for each song!
    You're very welcome, Waiting. Providing links for each song to back up my comments is half the fun of it!

    Yeah, "I'll Never Need More Than This" is just a great, great record which deserved to be a huge it. Unfortunately, I doubt if it even got any airplay. Such were the final days at Philles Records.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    ... I love Darlene's (and The Blossoms') work on "Shindig!" I've managed to collect, I think, every episode of the show (and I could talk for decades about my love of this show!)

    I often wondered about how their weekly appearances on the show affected their working with Phil. I don't think the Blossoms ever promoted their own records on the show, unless I just haven't seen the espisode(s) yet. I had never known that Phil Spector view Darlene's being on the show as a betrayal. Very interesting.
    Off the top of my head, I know they performed their releases THAT'S WHEN THE TEARS START and GOOD GOOD LOVIN' on the show. But they were on the Reprise label.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Off the top of my head, I know they performed their releases THAT'S WHEN THE TEARS START and GOOD GOOD LOVIN' on the show. But they were on the Reprise label.
    Reese, back then, I wasn't even aware that The Blossoms had signed with Reprise Records. (I thought they were still with Philles.) If I had heard them sing "Good, Good Lovin'" on Shindig, I would have just figured they were singing a cover version of somebody else's song, which was what the girls always did on Shindig.
    Last edited by Philles/Motown Gary; 09-04-2019 at 12:31 AM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    HaHa! Thanks for the compliment, John, but Connie Francis and Billy Vaughn weren't before my time! I was born in 1951. Connie and Billy started making it big in the late '50s when I was about 7.

    Who else was I inspired to collect everything of? Elvis Presley. I got on a huge Elvis kick back in the late '80s. Whatever artist or genre of music I embrace, I go for it gung-ho. Phil Spector (Philles), Motown, '70s Philly Soul, '60s Girl Groups, Van McCoy, Disco, '80s-90s Country, and Classical Vocal (Choral & Opera). I have approximately 6,000 CDs in my collection. The trouble is, I'm suddenly realizing that, at my age, I have more CDs than I'll ever have time to play again. Not sure how to deal with this new-found, overwhelming feeling.

    Mike Lewis is certainly an old duffer! I'm surprised at the number of pop and rock groups that he produced -- Crosby, Stills & Nash, Rod Stewart, Julio Iglesias and KC & The Sunshine Band. Who would have ever guessed!
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    I wonder if he was the SAME Mike Lewis who wrote songs for, and produced several Soul artists on Leiber and Stoller's Blue Cat (and Red Bird) Records, and also with Juggy Murray's Sue Records? Many of them were solid Soul, rather than Brill Building sounds.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    Reese, back then, I wasn't even aware that The Blossoms had signed with Reprise Records. (I thought they were still with Philles.) If I had heard them sing "Good, Good Lovin'" on Shindig, I would have just figured they were singing a cover version of somebody else's song, which was what the girls always did on Shindig.
    In Darlene's book, she included a photo of the Blossoms holding their Teen Screen award. In the captioned, she mention how SHINDIG! brought them an award but no hit records.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    In Darlene's book, she included a photo of the Blossoms holding their Teen Screen award. In the captioned, she mention how SHINDIG! brought them an award but no hit records.
    I know, Reese. As professional as The Blossoms were, and as in-demand as they were for supplying back-up vocals on other artists' records, they couldn't catch a break on their own other than their hits at Philles under names other than their own (The Crystals; Bob B. Soxx & The Blue Jeans; Darlene Love). I would say the closest they came was their one and only LP -- "Shockwave" on MGM/Lion.

  18. #118
    Despite the different composer credits, isn't Darlene Love's "Take It From Me" more or less a vocal version of "Git' It"?

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    Despite the different composer credits, isn't Darlene Love's "Take It From Me" more or less a vocal version of "Git' It"?
    Yes it is, 144man -- in a sped-up fashion. Thanks for pointing that out. (I had forgotten about their similarity.)

    BTW, back on Phil Spector - Part B - "Complete Philles LPs", you had asked a question regarding a Philles track being the same song as a song by another group on another label. I answered your question but you didn't respond, leaving me to wonder if you had seen it. Let me go update that for you.

  20. #120
    Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    Wasn't parts of "I Wonder" used in another song, but I'm scratching my head trying to remember what it was?

    144 man, My reply to you was:
    Not that I know of with "Girls Can Tell", 144man, but I think you might be thinking of The Ronettes' "Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love" in which the line is, "Gee, the moon is shining bright". The very same line AND melody were used in The Dixie Cups "Gee The Moon Is Shining Bright" 45 on Red Bird. Both songs were written by Jeff & Ellie & Phil (Barry & Greenwich & Spector). It was almost as if they weren't sure which direction to go with the song or which title to use, so they did one of each -- one version for The Ronettes, and the other version for their own group, The Dixie Cups. Might that be what you were thinking of?

    THE RONETTES:
    "Why Don't They Let Us Fall In Love"
    https://youtu.be/SPk9mZLnD78

    THE DIXIE CUPS:
    "Gee The Moon Is Shining Bright"
    https://youtu.be/Ms-ecwmgjuI

    There you are, 144man. Are those the two songs you were thinking of?

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    You're very welcome, Waiting. Providing links for each song to back up my comments is half the fun of it!

    Yeah, "I'll Never Need More Than This" is just a great, great record which deserved to be a huge it. Unfortunately, I doubt if it even got any airplay. Such were the final days at Philles Records.
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    It didn't get ANY airplay in Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Detroit, Indianapolis, Des Moines, Los Angeles, San Diego, or San Francisco Bay Area, as far as I remember.

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by robb_k View Post
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    It didn't get ANY airplay in Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Detroit, Indianapolis, Des Moines, Los Angeles, San Diego, or San Francisco Bay Area, as far as I remember.
    And that's a shame, Robb. I love "I'll Never Need More Than This" even more than "River Deep".

  23. #123
    Phil Spector was not a perfect person. There I said it! But, his talent and determination made him able to make one of the biggest impacts on American Popular Music in the early 1960s.

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Phil Spector was not a perfect person. There I said it! But, his talent and determination made him able to make one of the biggest impacts on American Popular Music in the early 1960s.
    I couldn't have said it better myself, Marv. Seems like all of my musical heroes have their unbecoming dark side, but how they shined while making music! And Phil was no exception. Whenever he stepped into that Gold Star studio, he became a musical genius. 50+ years later, his Philles recordings still hit me with the same power and beauty today as they did back in the day.

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