Question about the supremes' gowns

[milven]

When Mary decided to leave the Supremes, the remaining members were going to continue the group with a new member [[probably Joyce).

In this interview Mary said this:

"The gowns belonged to the Supremes. We didn’t intend for members to leave, but when they did the gowns had to stay with the group. I was a founding member and I stayed put, so I ended up with all the gowns. "

She really didn't stay put. She left, just as Diana, Jean, Flo, Cindy and others left. None of them took gowns with them. If the Supremes were to have actually continued, and Mary had their gowns, what would the Supremes appear in - their underwear??

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/...ps-of-all-time

[RanRan79]

For the record, Florence didn't just leave, she was fired. Supposedly she was reimbursed for gowns she paid for but didn't get to take with her.

As for Mary and the gowns, I think she never intended for the Supremes to carry on without her...and they didn't. So when the Supremes ended, as the lone original member having lasted the entire time, she felt entitled to take the gowns with her. Honestly I don't blame her.

[RanRan79]

I also think that if there had been a big problem with the taking of the gowns from Scherrie and Susaye's perspective, lawsuits would've been waged as soon as Mary started exhibiting the gowns, which I'm sure comes with additional income for Mary, a benefit it appears no other Supremes reap.

[milven]

Interesting. So I guess the members were billed individually for the gowns and they were not supplied by Motown. Were others like Diana, Cindy, Jean reimbursed when they left the group? I remember Mary announcing and making a farewell appearance with the group, but then the Supremes kind of stayed in limbo until it was finally announced that they had disbanded. When Mary left the group, should she have not been reimbursed for all the gowns that she paid for?

Its actually an interesting question. If Motown reimbursed Flo when she was fired, then Flo's former gowns belonged to Motown. Did Motown then sell Flo's gowns to Cindy? And Diana's to Jean? If not, then some of the gowns belonged to Motown and some to individual members.

Just curious. I'm not really interested in the gowns, just curious about who actually owned them and how Mary wound up with them if they did belong to either Motown or the individual members

[RanRan79]

Good questions. If I recall correctly, when Flo was in the group, the Supremes had an account strictly for gowns, which is what paid for their attire. I'm not sure if this is how it worked in the 70s, but I imagine the same procedure was in place up until Diana left. Keeping this in mind, the 60s outfits would surely belong to the Supremes themselves and not Motown, since most of the money Motown spent on the Supremes was actually money the Supremes made but wouldn't see but "pennies" of while others took the lion shares. Florence was given her share of the gown money and sent on her way. It's possible that Diana was also given a share of the account when she left the group. I don't know how the situation worked with Cindy. It might be possible that once Flo left, and then Diana, the replacements were loaned gowns, so Cindy, nor Jean, and so forth, would not have been entitled to them. Of course I'm guessing here.

[bradsupremes]

I wondered about this and this was my assessment...

Motown never owned the gowns because the label never paid for them so Motown didn't have any grounds to claim ownership. The girls paid for their gowns so each girl owned them. I presume when each girl left the group there would be some reimbursement and the gowns would be left to the group. What I think was different was that Jean, Lynda, Scherrie and Susaye weren't the owners of the gowns they inherited from Diana, Mary, Cindy or Flo nor do I think they were reimbursed for gowns that weren't designed or paid for by them when they left. They merely paid for their upkeep, storage, and any work done on them for their use. Mary stated that in 1970 when Diana left the group and she was the last original member that all things were to be turned over to her so in a sense Mary felt she was the owner of all the gowns. We also have to consider Supremes, Inc. that Mary created in 1973[[??). No longer did Motown oversee the finances of the group and this extended to the storage, care, upkeep, and commissioning of gowns. It was all paid for by Supremes, Inc. I also feel if the Supremes were to continue with Scherrie and Susaye that they would have wanted a new direction and look for the group. It's very possible they wouldn't have wanted the gowns and left them with Mary.

I think how it all played out was that after the farewell performance at the Drury Lane there had been no plans for what to do with the gowns and since Mary & Pedro oversaw Supremes, Inc. and maintained the storage of them they just held on to them. When Motown dissolved the group, Mary had them and that's how where we are today.

[marv2]

For the record, Florence didn't just leave, she was fired. Supposedly she was reimbursed for gowns she paid for but didn't get to take with her.

As for Mary and the gowns, I think she never intended for the Supremes to carry on without her...and they didn't. So when the Supremes ended, as the lone original member having lasted the entire time, she felt entitled to take the gowns with her. Honestly I don't blame her.

Mary also paid for some of them for the group in the 70s.

[marv2]

Interesting. So I guess the members were billed individually for the gowns and they were not supplied by Motown. Were others like Diana, Cindy, Jean reimbursed when they left the group? I remember Mary announcing and making a farewell appearance with the group, but then the Supremes kind of stayed in limbo until it was finally announced that they had disbanded. When Mary left the group, should she have not been reimbursed for all the gowns that she paid for?

Its actually an interesting question. If Motown reimbursed Flo when she was fired, then Flo's former gowns belonged to Motown. Did Motown then sell Flo's gowns to Cindy? And Diana's to Jean? If not, then some of the gowns belonged to Motown and some to individual members.

Just curious. I'm not really interested in the gowns, just curious about who actually owned them and how Mary wound up with them if they did belong to either Motown or the individual members

None of them belonged to Motown. Not even the ones that were used for display at Hitsville when I worked there. They were on loan from Mary Wilson with a few that had just been left in Detroit over the years.

[sup_fan]

I wondered about this and this was my assessment...

Motown never owned the gowns because the label never paid for them so Motown didn't have any grounds to claim ownership. The girls paid for their gowns so each girl owned them. I presume when each girl left the group there would be some reimbursement and the gowns would be left to the group. What I think was different was that Jean, Lynda, Scherrie and Susaye weren't the owners of the gowns they inherited from Diana, Mary, Cindy or Flo nor do I think they were reimbursed for gowns that weren't designed or paid for by them when they left. They merely paid for their upkeep, storage, and any work done on them for their use. Mary stated that in 1970 when Diana left the group and she was the last original member that all things were to be turned over to her so in a sense Mary felt she was the owner of all the gowns. We also have to consider Supremes, Inc. that Mary created in 1973[[??). No longer did Motown oversee the finances of the group and this extended to the storage, care, upkeep, and commissioning of gowns. It was all paid for by Supremes, Inc. I also feel if the Supremes were to continue with Scherrie and Susaye that they would have wanted a new direction and look for the group. It's very possible they wouldn't have wanted the gowns and left them with Mary.

I think how it all played out was that after the farewell performance at the Drury Lane there had been no plans for what to do with the gowns and since Mary & Pedro oversaw Supremes, Inc. and maintained the storage of them they just held on to them. When Motown dissolved the group, Mary had them and that's how where we are today.

I asked Susaye once on here if she and Scherrie had a "vote" or "voice" as to the show or the gowns. My recollection of her answer was no, mary handled that. [[apologies to Miss S if i'm misquoting her here)

Based on that, i wonder if S and S were charged for the gowns, as D, M, F and C were. Did Supremes Inc pay for the outfits but S and S were charged simply for upkeep, alterations, repairs, etc. Therefore they would not have ownership claims to the outfits

As for Jean, did she break her contract and ask to be released from motown? or did her contract expire and she not renew? If she broke the contract, as part of the exit settlement, perhaps she waived rights to the gowns. Didn't she waive rights to future royalties?

With Lynda, did she ever advance beyond a probationary period? Wasn't the trial period 18 months? Assuming she joined in April 72, Sept 73 would have been her 18th month. and she was basically out of the group at that point. There were only 4 outfits that i'm aware of new for the JML lineup - the hibiscus blossoms, the burgundy velvet "Lean On Me" the red floral gowns from the Grove show with the Tempts and the chiffon gowns from Kate Smith.

[sup_fan]

Good questions. If I recall correctly, when Flo was in the group, the Supremes had an account strictly for gowns, which is what paid for their attire. I'm not sure if this is how it worked in the 70s, but I imagine the same procedure was in place up until Diana left. Keeping this in mind, the 60s outfits would surely belong to the Supremes themselves and not Motown, since most of the money Motown spent on the Supremes was actually money the Supremes made but wouldn't see but "pennies" of while others took the lion shares. Florence was given her share of the gown money and sent on her way. It's possible that Diana was also given a share of the account when she left the group. I don't know how the situation worked with Cindy. It might be possible that once Flo left, and then Diana, the replacements were loaned gowns, so Cindy, nor Jean, and so forth, would not have been entitled to them. Of course I'm guessing here.

in Flo's official settlement [[the $150K one), she was paid for her portion of costumes. how they determined what to bill her [[i guess some form of depreciation lol), no idea. Most likely they just attributed some sort of flat sum. Same with Cindy when she left. not sure what release she had in 72. or if it was the 76 one. but Cindy did sign away her rights to future royalties and perhaps part of that language also covered whatever money she had paid for outfits. just a lump sum again

[benross]

Here's the big question. Describing the cover of The Supremes' first album, Diana wrote, "We wore exquisite dresses I had made. I took great pride in them and considered these handmade outfits to be the very height of fashion." So, what of these dresses? Did Mary and Florence each pay for a third of the fabric''s cost? Did they pay for the design skills Diana showed? Did they compensate her at an hourly rate for the time she put into completion of the outfits? Did they resent paying, as they preferred other colors, fabrics or styles? Did they pay for both their accompanying jewelry and the matching jewelry Diana wore? Who paid for the bows each sported in her hair? Who kept these dresses -- Motown, Mary, or someone else? Are they included in Mary's book or in her various exhibits? Similarly, with the earlier publicity photo with Barbara and the rest wearing plaid dresses or blouses, did Diana pay for her own necklace, which had three strands of beads, or did Barbara, Mary and Florence chip in for it, even though their own necklaces had but two strands?

[marv2]

Here's the big question. Describing the cover of The Supremes' first album, Diana wrote, "We wore exquisite dresses I had made. I took great pride in them and considered these handmade outfits to be the very height of fashion." So, what of these dresses? Did Mary and Florence each pay for a third of the fabric''s cost? Did they pay for the design skills Diana showed? Did they compensate her at an hourly rate for the time she put into completion of the outfits? Did they resent paying, as they preferred other colors, fabrics or styles? Did they pay for both their accompanying jewelry and the matching jewelry Diana wore? Who paid for the bows each sported in her hair? Who kept these dresses -- Motown, Mary, or someone else? Are they included in Mary's book or in her various exhibits? Similarly, with the earlier publicity photo with Barbara and the rest wearing plaid dresses or blouses, did Diana pay for her own necklace, which had three strands of beads, or did Barbara, Mary and Florence chip in for it, even though their own necklaces had but two strands?

What are you talking about? They paid for that cheap costume jewelry at Woolworths in Detroit. Their first album? Exquisite dresses? Where?

[sup_fan]

Here's the big question. Describing the cover of The Supremes' first album, Diana wrote, "We wore exquisite dresses I had made. I took great pride in them and considered these handmade outfits to be the very height of fashion." So, what of these dresses? Did Mary and Florence each pay for a third of the fabric''s cost? Did they pay for the design skills Diana showed? Did they compensate her at an hourly rate for the time she put into completion of the outfits? Did they resent paying, as they preferred other colors, fabrics or styles? Did they pay for both their accompanying jewelry and the matching jewelry Diana wore? Who paid for the bows each sported in her hair? Who kept these dresses -- Motown, Mary, or someone else? Are they included in Mary's book or in her various exhibits? Similarly, with the earlier publicity photo with Barbara and the rest wearing plaid dresses or blouses, did Diana pay for her own necklace, which had three strands of beads, or did Barbara, Mary and Florence chip in for it, even though their own necklaces had but two strands?

while none of the girls have specifically stated, i would assume the girls DID all chip in. none of them had much money and so i'd assume that they all contributed what they could. Mary and Mrs Ross would help.

During these years i'd also assume that each girl was trying to help out with the act in various ways. Flo mentions picking some of the song, maybe Barbara or Mary worked on their choreography, etc.

[sup_fan]

What are you talking about? They paid for that cheap costume jewelry at Woolworths in Detroit. Their first album? Exquisite dresses? Where?

i'm sure Diana's referring to these as exquisite because she remembers being proud of her sewing skills. hell - i can't sew a button! lol were they couture - nope. but they made themselves up in their then vision of glamour

[marv2]

i'm sure Diana's referring to these as exquisite because she remembers being proud of her sewing skills. hell - i can't sew a button! lol were they couture - nope. but they made themselves up in their then vision of glamour

She's also said that she admired the style and clothing of local hookers on John R. [[a street in Detroit). She wanted to have their kind of style.

[RanRan79]

Here's the big question. Describing the cover of The Supremes' first album, Diana wrote, "We wore exquisite dresses I had made. I took great pride in them and considered these handmade outfits to be the very height of fashion." So, what of these dresses? Did Mary and Florence each pay for a third of the fabric''s cost? Did they pay for the design skills Diana showed? Did they compensate her at an hourly rate for the time she put into completion of the outfits? Did they resent paying, as they preferred other colors, fabrics or styles? Did they pay for both their accompanying jewelry and the matching jewelry Diana wore? Who paid for the bows each sported in her hair? Who kept these dresses -- Motown, Mary, or someone else? Are they included in Mary's book or in her various exhibits? Similarly, with the earlier publicity photo with Barbara and the rest wearing plaid dresses or blouses, did Diana pay for her own necklace, which had three strands of beads, or did Barbara, Mary and Florence chip in for it, even though their own necklaces had but two strands?

I can't imagine any of the ladies held on to those Primettes/early Supremes outfits. As far as costs, I'm sure Milton Jenkins purchased their clothes for the year or so that he managed them. With him gone, aside from when they were managed by Richard Morris, the girls pretty much managed themselves, showcasing an early seriousness about their craft. Those ladies wanted to sing and would not be stopped. I'm assuming that with Milton gone and Richard's access to money not the same as Milton's [[whose capital supposedly came from certain street hustles), the girls had to buy their own stuff. And it was cheaper for the outfits to be homemade as opposed to purchasing them in a shop. Makes sense that all four girls would chip in for this. Mrs. Ross probably oversaw the operation. Diana and Mary had some knowledge of dressmaking, but I'm not sure about Barbara. Both Diana and Mary have said they sewed some of those early outfits. Florence is not mentioned as having participated in this process, but Maxine says that she [[Maxine) and Mrs. Ross would sew outfits for the group, so I'm assuming Maxine made Flo's.

[RanRan79]

During these years i'd also assume that each girl was trying to help out with the act in various ways. Flo mentions picking some of the song, maybe Barbara or Mary worked on their choreography, etc.

In Call Her Miss Ross JRandyT quoted Diana recalling that during the early 1965 European tour that she called a meeting of the group when it appeared that some cracks had surfaced in their relationship. She supposedly got the girls together to get everything back on track. In doing so it was decided that each girl would have her place: Diana would be in charge of the gowns, Mary in charge of music and Flo in charge of the money. JRandyT goes on to point out that there was no chance that any member of any Motown group ever collected the money, and certainly not during that European tour. I've always thought that Diana- as her memory often did even in her younger years- was mixing up time periods. She said it was early 65 but I'm guessing if there was ever a time that Diana Ross got the girls together for a "lets stop the bullshit and come together" meeting, it was definitely very early 60s and certainly not after her voice was the lead on four or five number one hits at the time. Not buying it. Nor do I buy that Mary was in charge of music [[wouldn't that be Maurice King or someone?) or Florence in charge of money at that point. However, it does make sense that this might be the way the group was configured after Milton disappeared, with Diana making wardrobe decisions, Mary's input on music being the most respected, and Flo collecting the dough for performances and what not. And since it's been said that Barbara was quite the dancer, she probably did most of the work on choreography too.

[RanRan79]

She's also said that she admired the style and clothing of local hookers on John R. [[a street in Detroit). She wanted to have their kind of style.

And she wouldn't be the only one. It's my understanding that many of the ladies of the night during that time were setting some of the fashion trends. Hookers in those days weren't necessarily dirty and nasty as they are usually depicted these days. Whatever the inspiration, with Diana Ross being a legend not only in music but also in fashion, whoever she was looking to for inspiration apparently had something going on to inspire such a fashion icon.

[reese]

And she wouldn't be the only one. It's my understanding that many of the ladies of the night during that time were setting some of the fashion trends. Hookers in those days weren't necessarily dirty and nasty as they are usually depicted these days. Whatever the inspiration, with Diana Ross being a legend not only in music but also in fashion, whoever she was looking to for inspiration apparently had something going on to inspire such a fashion icon.

In her book, Martha Reeves said sort of the same re admiring the fashions of the "ladies of the night."

[luke]

I think benross May be havin some fun!

[sup_fan]

In Call Her Miss Ross JRandyT quoted Diana recalling that during the early 1965 European tour that she called a meeting of the group when it appeared that some cracks had surfaced in their relationship. She supposedly got the girls together to get everything back on track. In doing so it was decided that each girl would have her place: Diana would be in charge of the gowns, Mary in charge of music and Flo in charge of the money. JRandyT goes on to point out that there was no chance that any member of any Motown group ever collected the money, and certainly not during that European tour. I've always thought that Diana- as her memory often did even in her younger years- was mixing up time periods. She said it was early 65 but I'm guessing if there was ever a time that Diana Ross got the girls together for a "lets stop the bullshit and come together" meeting, it was definitely very early 60s and certainly not after her voice was the lead on four or five number one hits at the time. Not buying it. Nor do I buy that Mary was in charge of music [[wouldn't that be Maurice King or someone?) or Florence in charge of money at that point. However, it does make sense that this might be the way the group was configured after Milton disappeared, with Diana making wardrobe decisions, Mary's input on music being the most respected, and Flo collecting the dough for performances and what not. And since it's been said that Barbara was quite the dancer, she probably did most of the work on choreography too.

completely agree - by the time they were hitting it big, the girls had an entourage that handled the other particulars such as collection of payment, scores, etc. that was the role of their road manager