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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    According to Quincy Jones, there are Beatles recordings where jazz session musicians were substituted for Ringo Starr and other members of the band.
    Totally believable. Ringo was really good for what he did...but had his limitations as well... Nothing about substituting musicians for recording sessions that is unusual...

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Can I imagine them without Andantes? Yeah! I've heard the Tops perform those songs live and in concert at least 30-35 times over the years and they were spectacular. They did not always sing "7 Rooms of Gloom", but they always performed "Bernadette" in concert. Here they are dancing and singing and sounding great live. Please note that they have 3 vocalists providing the harmonies. Groups like the Supremes and Martha and Vandellas had to go with just two vocalists which makes it quite difficult to achieve 3 part harmony live. So on some sessions there were session singers utilize to fill in some of the background.

    Look and listen close to the performance you posted... First of all...this was not record release quality...terrific to watch and listen too...but not release quality... Also notice that Levi is the ONLY singer with a mic and a chord, meaning that the other tops are likely lip syncing to previously recorded backing tracks (virtually impossible to get studio quality backup OR lead vocals while dancing around with the adrenalin of a live show, and getting winded as most humans, regardless of what kind of shape they are in could pull off as Duke, Lawrence, and Obie are doing) , and yes...those high voices we are used to on the recordings are not there and absolutely a missing element, just as unlike the record on Bernadette...in this medley, Jamersons classic bassline (that many people will tell you actually MADE the song) is just not there carrying the band track and few could recreate that line and when I saw the Tops live, those bassists didn't even TRY to play that same line...You have to listen closely to notice these things...As I'm sure you know...performing live and mastering a recording are two entirely different animals. Many of those groups performed live with 5 or 6 piece backing bands (and sounded great in context).. .I'm sure you'd notice a huge difference if the Tops recorded with a combo backing them rather than the Funk Brothers and other musicians including horn and string players, and put on a great show...not even close to putting together a recording that people will sit and listen to, back in those days through a 2 inch transistor speaker or 4 inch car radio speaker on an am band (that was not sonically geared to lower range voices and higher voices were often needed to brighten up the sound) that in most cases that had to be immaculately produced and engineered to sound GOOD, regardless of the basic song, material, or group... with no visual stimulation or enhancement and base the record primarily on sonic quality... Producing a recording and performing live on stage with the visuals you describe as an enhancement are two ENTIRELY different animals...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-08-2019 at 08:45 PM.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Marv...Just as an example...Can you imagine 7 Rooms Of Gloom or Bernadette WITHOUT The Andantes???...Would have been different songs with different attitudes that missed the not so subtle emphasis in coordination with The Funk Brothers... That's what producers do...embellish every aspect of a song to garner a feeling, and on many Tops (and other artists songs)...the background vocals were well thought out and integral to the song... Rooms of Gloom had those eerie voices in registers the guys could never come close to and the Andantes are much more prominent that the other Tops...... Same with Bernadette. Those are more than songs...They are complete, masterful productions...Tell me this would have been anywhere near the finished product without the ladies who performed on 16 Four Tops songs alone... Perhaps they should have been known as the SEVEN Tops (LOL)???... https://youtu.be/lSZsm2EBoLE
    The Seven Tops! LOL!!! All good points, Stu! And, what's more, it's been written that The Andantes enjoyed recording with the Four Tops, and the Four Tops loved having The Andantes on their records! I'll bet they had no idea at the time they were committing fraud which some people, 50+ years later, would be accusing them of! Who knew?!!!

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    The Seven Tops! LOL!!! All good points, Stu! And, what's more, it's been written that The Andantes enjoyed recording with the Four Tops, and the Four Tops loved having The Andantes on their records! I'll bet they had no idea at the time they were committing fraud which some people, 50+ years later, would be accusing them of! Who knew?!!!
    True... The top of the record labels said MOTOWN...That's who decided what appeared below...

  5. #55
    Although the discussion is interesting , The Four Tops do not belong in this topic, as obviously the all-female Andantes did not replace any of their vocals ( which is the thread's topic) . As I think about it, The Andantes accompanied/added vocals to several groups , but if I'm not mistaken , the only group that they flat out vocally replaced (at times) was The Supremes....(?)

    Out of curiosity though, were there any Four Tops recordings where somebody pretended to be one (or more) of them by singing on their behalf ?
    Or for that matter, were there songs recorded without all the members of the group being included ?

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    actually that's not totally true. in very, very few instances were any of the men replaced by background singers. yes, in some cases the andantes were added to male group records, most notably on the Four Tops. But almost never were Duke, Obie and Lawrence replaced by, say, the Contours or the Spinners. Same with the Miracles. Smokey didn't record without Bobby, Ronnie and Pete.

    So why was it ok that the women background singers at motown were interchangeable but the male background singers were not?
    Why? Because they wanted to achieve three-part harmony in the background. That's very difficult to do with just two backing vocalists. That is main reason. In other cases because the Andantes were always in town and available to do sessions. It had nothing to do with the ability of the group singers. The Marvelettes were a little rough when they were first starting out, but even they became smoother over time. The Originals were used on many of the solo male recordings for the background.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    The Seven Tops! LOL!!! All good points, Stu! And, what's more, it's been written that The Andantes enjoyed recording with the Four Tops, and the Four Tops loved having The Andantes on their records! I'll bet they had no idea at the time they were committing fraud which some people, 50+ years later, would be accusing them of! Who knew?!!!
    The Four Tops were all that were ever needed! It was the producer that wanted female voices included. Check this out:


  8. #58
    Here is Martha Reeves backed by the REAL Vandellas and they sound superb. Now you can go on believe whatever is you want to believe. The groups sound best on the recordings to me. Session singers added some things, but overall they were pretty bland, colorless voices to my ears


  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    Look and listen close to the performance you posted... First of all...this was not record release quality...terrific to watch and listen too...but not release quality... Also notice that Levi is the ONLY singer with a mic and a chord, meaning that the other tops are likely lip syncing to previously recorded backing tracks (virtually impossible to get studio quality backup OR lead vocals while dancing around with the adrenalin of a live show, and getting winded as most humans, regardless of what kind of shape they are in could pull off as Duke, Lawrence, and Obie are doing) , and yes...those high voices we are used to on the recordings are not there and absolutely a missing element, just as unlike the record on Bernadette...in this medley, Jamersons classic bassline (that many people will tell you actually MADE the song) is just not there carrying the band track and few could recreate that line and when I saw the Tops live, those bassists didn't even TRY to play that same line...You have to listen closely to notice these things...As I'm sure you know...performing live and mastering a recording are two entirely different animals. Many of those groups performed live with 5 or 6 piece backing bands (and sounded great in context).. .I'm sure you'd notice a huge difference if the Tops recorded with a combo backing them rather than the Funk Brothers and other musicians including horn and string players, and put on a great show...not even close to putting together a recording that people will sit and listen to, back in those days through a 2 inch transistor speaker or 4 inch car radio speaker on an am band (that was not sonically geared to lower range voices and higher voices were often needed to brighten up the sound) that in most cases that had to be immaculately produced and engineered to sound GOOD, regardless of the basic song, material, or group... with no visual stimulation or enhancement and base the record primarily on sonic quality... Producing a recording and performing live on stage with the visuals you describe as an enhancement are two ENTIRELY different animals...
    No it was not record release quality because it was a LIVE performance! Now, I am totally confident that they could have recorded those songs.......alone and they still would have been big hits! You heard the acapella example I posted of the Four Tops singing?

  10. #60
    Here's another good example of what I was talking about. Was it necessary to add male voices to this record or was it due to a "sound" the producers were trying to achieve? It was a unique sound thing:


  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    As I think about it, The Andantes accompanied/added vocals to several groups , but if I'm not mistaken , the only group that they flat out vocally replaced (at times) was The Supremes....(?)
    No, John, The Andantes sometimes replaced not only The Supremes, but also at times The Vandellas and The Marvelettes, and, possibly, at times, The Velvelettes. If memory serves, there was a law in place requiring that at least one track per album contain the original members of the group. Other than that, the recordings were sometimes Martha Reeves & TheVandellas, Martha Reeves & The Vandellas AND The Andantes, or Martha Reeves & The Andantes. As long as the LP had one track with the real Vandellas, the remaining tracks could be either of the other two options. So, actually, Motown was operating within the law and there was nothing legally fraudulent about it.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    No, John, The Andantes sometimes replaced not only The Supremes, but also at times The Vandellas and The Marvelettes, and, possibly, at times, The Velvelettes. If memory serves, there was a law in place requiring that at least one track per album contain the original members of the group. Other than that, the recordings were sometimes Martha Reeves & TheVandellas, Martha Reeves & The Vandellas AND The Andantes, or Martha Reeves & The Andantes. As long as the LP had one track with the real Vandellas, the remaining tracks could be either of the other two options. So, actually, Motown was operating within the law and there was nothing legally fraudulent about it.
    It was not a law, but it was in the contracts at least for the Supremes that it was forbidden to replace any one of the members on recordings or in live concerts if the member was able and willing to perform on record or on stage. This is what got Motown in trouble legally when Mary Wilson sued them in 1977-78. She cited recordings made between 1968-69 when the group was called "Diana Ross & the Supremes". When the producer would use the Andantes on a complete record, that in essence was replacing a group member or members which was not allowed by their contracts.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    It was not a law, but it was in the contracts at least for the Supremes that it was forbidden to replace any one of the members on recordings or in live concerts if the member was able and willing to perform on record or on stage. This is what got Motown in trouble legally when Mary Wilson sued them in 1977-78. She cited recordings made between 1968-69 when the group was called "Diana Ross & the Supremes". When the producer would use the Andantes on a complete record, that in essence was replacing a group member or members which was not allowed by their contracts.
    That may very well be true, Marv, but what I'm referring to was specifically pertaining to Motown album releases. Now that I think back, the topic at hand was The Marvelettes' "Return Of The Marvelettes" LP. It was originally intended as a Wanda Rogers' solo project with back-up vocals solely by The Andantes. When Motown decided to make it a Marvelettes' release instead, they had to include "Uptown" as a duplicate track from the previous Marvelettes' "In Full Bloom" album so that there would be at least one track on "Return Of" including real back-up Marvelettes. I don't recall whose rule that was, but it was a condition by which Motown had to abide. Oh, I think we were also talking about Martha & The Vandellas' "Tell Me I'll Never Be Alone" track from the "Watchout!" album which includes Vandellas and Andantes. Motown had to include it because the majority of remaining tracks on the album were Anantes only.
    Does anyone else remember this rule that Motown had to satisfy?? StuBass?

  14. #64
    Look all i can say is that i've seen most of the motown acts live, and although the andantes weren't there the groups sounded great without them.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by arr&bee View Post
    Look all i can say is that i've seen most of the motown acts live, and although the andantes weren't there the groups sounded great without them.
    Yep!

    And they made the best records they could with the background singers they chose

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Philles/Motown Gary View Post
    That may very well be true, Marv, but what I'm referring to was specifically pertaining to Motown album releases. Now that I think back, the topic at hand was The Marvelettes' "Return Of The Marvelettes" LP. It was originally intended as a Wanda Rogers' solo project with back-up vocals solely by The Andantes. When Motown decided to make it a Marvelettes' release instead, they had to include "Uptown" as a duplicate track from the previous Marvelettes' "In Full Bloom" album so that there would be at least one track on "Return Of" including real back-up Marvelettes. I don't recall whose rule that was, but it was a condition by which Motown had to abide. Oh, I think we were also talking about Martha & The Vandellas' "Tell Me I'll Never Be Alone" track from the "Watchout!" album which includes Vandellas and Andantes. Motown had to include it because the majority of remaining tracks on the album were Anantes only.
    Does anyone else remember this rule that Motown had to satisfy?? StuBass?
    This is the first time I am hearing about this rule. I do know that I can count on one hand the number of number one hit records where the Andantes did all of the backgrounds on the record and none of the real group members.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by arr&bee View Post
    Look all i can say is that i've seen most of the motown acts live, and although the andantes weren't there the groups sounded great without them.
    Exactly! Most people outside of Motown had never heard of these session singers until Mary Wilson's 1986 book,"Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme".

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    No it was not record release quality because it was a LIVE performance! Now, I am totally confident that they could have recorded those songs.......alone and they still would have been big hits! You heard the acapella example I posted of the Four Tops singing?
    Kinda my final on this...but I think most would agree that it's often subtleties that makes a decent record good...and a good recording great... Sounding "good to you" and having those extra elements are what makes hits... If not...who would need producers...just a songwriter, a vocal arranger, a band, and a group...Brian Wilson spent weeks and months perfecting tracks for his classic tracks, making subtle changes on parts that one not attuned would not even notice... like bringing cello musicians back to the studio day after day after day to just get the bowing patterns just right on Good Vibrations ...HDH were not just songwriters...they were Masters of production... That's why even things like stomping on the floor, hotel sheets, and slapping two pieces of wood together, things that many or most listeners would hardly notice to isolate if asked to describe the important features of a recording, played such an important role when utilized on Motown songs and were often credited with making a good tune a major hit. Same with the voices of the Andantes on the Tops recordings... MAJOR contribution in my opinion... Those recordings would not have sounded the same without them... Sounding good, and making a classic record are two different things. They would have sounded good without the Andantes on 7 Rooms of Gloom...and those female voices reaching mezzo soprano and even soprano to lend an effect and offset the lower end male singers made a HUGE difference that upon close examination...One can't dismiss the importance of production that upon close examination, those subconscious and subtle additions actually MAKE the record...much in the same way a Jamerson bassline or Mike Terry bari part can MAKE a record...It would have sounded "good enough" is NOT the standard any record producer worth his/her salt would be satisfied with...The best analogy I can give would be to say... that Escalade looked really good with the stock wheels and rims and I don't know why that guy needed to add those 22's with the low profiles...
    Last edited by StuBass1; 07-09-2019 at 01:36 AM.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    If you are all ears, then listen to the record closely and then go listen to Diana "try" to sing it live! That is all I am going to say about THAT! LOL
    !!!!
    Hereís Diana Ross singing it live around the same time as the recording. Sounds good to me!!

    https://youtu.be/1HnnWhANLjk

  20. #70
    Sounds great to me, too! Sing it, Diana!

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Itís been said before - all that was vital in these recordings be they Supremes Vandellas Miracles or Pips, was the lead singer

    I agree with brad that a certain sound got sacrificed by about 1967

    But the controversy has reduced the recognition that the Andantes got and their use has reduced the recognition of Miracles Pips Vandellas but especially Supremes - all in favour of their lead singers
    I'm surprised that most of the members seem ... sanguine ... about their favorite non-lead singers appearing on the group recordings. To each, as they say. I've already given my opinion and won't repeat it again. But the fact that so many fans are not concerned that their individual non-leads did not appear on 'group' recordings does lend support to your theory to the relative lack of significance that individual group members had/have. Personally, I'm a Cindy B fan and I do feel defrauded that she did not sing on most of the post-Florence recordings. In the end it's a wonder now that the Milli V situation was such a scandal!

  22. #72
    My thought and opinion...Since the word Ďfraudí is supposedly not welcomed by some, Iíll use the word Ďdeception.í In the case where a group, in addition to all of its members singing on the recording, Iíll give a 1/2 pass to displaying just the groupís name on the recording. When the background vocals are only the Andantes (or other session voices), itís deception (really itís fraud). I donít care for the concept that the name of the group was owned by whoever; itís still deceptive. When a group receives a music award for a particular song or project in which some of the membersí vocals were replaced, itís fraud. As much as I love the talents of the Andantes, there were many recordings with the Tops in which their voices were actually distracting. Way too much! For me, the Motown sound began to kill of those roaches and burned those rags only to be replaced with cute poodle dogs and doilies made of the finest linen. Sign of the times for that era? Maybe; however, it was, in my opinion, a quick transition to squeaky clean and elaborately orchestrated arrangements.

  23. #73
    To answer the original question, I didn't really focus on whether or not they were replacing Mary and Cindy etc. I just enjoyed what I heard. As a teenage record buyer, contracts, morals, legalities etc. weren't on my radar at all.

    I did notice what sounded right to me, however. I first heard "Guess I'll Always Love You" by The Isley Brothers on the radio in its mono single mix, complete with The Andantes. Then I bought the "This Old Heart Of Mine" LP in mono and noticed that the backing vocals on the album version just weren't as good.

    From my own personal experience, being in the record industry was like being in the lion's den. Enter at your peril.

    So we can analyse and debate morality as much as we like over half a century later, but we have to keep the record industry's first commandment in mind when we do, and that is "Stitch up thy brother."

    If you want morality and fairness then look elsewhere. That industry chewed up and spat out endless wannabes.

    In the end, the music industry was all about product and not music. I was buying over 5M 7" singles annually for a record wholesaler, but those records could equally have been books, shoes or nuts and bolts. I just bought stuff that would sell.

    Sad but true.

    And that's why I ended up in IT!

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Why? Because they wanted to achieve three-part harmony in the background. That's very difficult to do with just two backing vocalists. That is main reason. In other cases because the Andantes were always in town and available to do sessions. It had nothing to do with the ability of the group singers. The Marvelettes were a little rough when they were first starting out, but even they became smoother over time. The Originals were used on many of the solo male recordings for the background.
    my point wasn't about the # of voices in the background. until 65, the Marvelettes had 3 background singers. plus to make a 3 part chord, you need, shock lol, 3 voices. if you have 2 background voices and 1 lead, each can sing a different note and achieve the 3-part that's desired. listen to Back in My Arms Again for a perfect example of this.

    my point was that the male groups, for the vast majority of the time, did NOT replace their male background vocalists with other singers. the originals or the spinners or whichever men never/rarely subbed in for the Miracles or Tempts.

    now for making a more full background sound, in the early to mid 60s it was certainly easier to bring in more singers rather than layer in multiple tracks of the group. like the Sups' Country Western & Pop. the released version has the added Andantes in the background. compare to the Unreleased 63 rendition of the songs.

  25. #75
    I'd like to hear more Sotosound !

    This has been an informative thread. I'm kind of disappointed too that some seem so easily accepting that it doesn't matter who is actually singing. I'll stand by my position that if the record says "& The Supremes" and they ain't on it , it's fraud.

    But as far as adding vocals to existing group vocals, I am ok with it, obviously there's a certain sound being reached for. When I hear female vocals on a Four Tops record, it is to add something , not substitute. When I hear a french horn on a Beatles record , I'm fairly certain that's not George Harrison giving it a blow! That's the point of studio recordings isn't it? To see how much you can tweak and enhance a recording to make it special. Otherwise we'd just release live recordings.
    Oh , I was in error in trying to insist that The Four Tops didn't belong in the discussion. I was basing that on the thread's title. But I reread the original post, and IMissFlo brings them up there so I guess the conversation is meant to be broader than I understood.

    Good stuff!!

  26. #76
    The Four Tops did not 'announce' the name of their lead singer. I wonder if fans would accept it if a random singer had been brought in to make Four Tops records while the group was on tour?

  27. #77
    I have to admit some of you are refreshing my memory.

    I remember I was completely shocked finding out there was no Mary and Cindy on some of these songs.

    I was completely blown out of the water to find as early as Run Run Run and Stop in the Name of Love, there were additional voices and some versions without Supremes, like the original 45.

    I don't think any of this would qualify as legal fraud - but I do think fans were unpleasantly surprised, at least, when the news came out.

    But as years have gone by and we've learned more and more about Motown, Phil Spector, the Beach Boys, the Beatles and heaven knows who else - and so I've just come to accept it (and possibly relish the squirming it causes for some harsh personalities).

    But I do not like what it may have done to the Andantes or Mary and Cindy. I notice Mary does not like to talk about it very much.

  28. #78
    i'd be curious to learn just how much the groups complained back in the 60s about this. There's a story in Randy's book about Flo complaining about the A's being added to an early version of The Happening. not sure if that really happened or not.

    Supposedly by the Scherrie years, Mary was not allowing other backing singers on the sup material. but that's after YEARS of allowing it.

    So i wonder if the groups just went along with it while it was happening or if they complained, even in vain. or since they were getting the same money regardless, if they really didn't care at the time. And it's only due to hindsight that they're saying this wasn't the wisest idea

  29. #79
    The Supremes sure wouldn't have been complaining around the time of the release of Run Run Run.

  30. #80
    There seems to be some confusion on this thread. No one has said the songs sound better or worse with unlisted background singers, nor did the singers/groups themselves commit deception or fraud. The issue is with Motown's lack of clarity on who sang on which records.

  31. #81
    Certainly this thread has strayed FAARRR from the topic, as threads here usually do. Howwhoevertosay, I'm surprised that it's as contentious as it is. Outta this one!

  32. #82
    Itís just a chat - they stray like any conversation

    Midnight Johnny who was on here for years has had Louvain Demos on his show for a lengthy interview and sheís on Facebook Iím sure; Iím left with the memory that she feels the Andantes never got their due.

    And Iím sure it didnít do a lot for the confidence and egoís of the replaced and added to singers

  33. #83
    Another interesting question for me personally, what were the relationships between each other ? The Andantes with Mary & Cindy, Roz & Betty or Ann & Kat. Were there harmonized or more a rivalry ?

  34. #84
    This is all a non-issue. Most of the group members from these various groups ALSO were assigned to sing background on recordings by other artists like Marvin Gaye, Mary Wells, Barbara McNair, Brenda Holloway, etc. The Andantes were not the only ones to provide harmonies on Motown recordings. That tells me a lot!
    Last edited by marv2; 07-10-2019 at 12:58 PM.

  35. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    This is all a none issue. Most of the group members from these various groups ALSO were assigned to sing background on recordings by other artists like Marvin Gaye, Mary Wells, Barbara McNair, Brenda Holloway. The Andantes were not the only one to provide harmonies on Motown recordings. That tells me a lot!
    That is true...Motown being a "family" type organization, which I've mentioned before... would see singers hanging around and a producer could decide that he wanted to add some voices to a project going on in studio A and recruit singers, musicians, or even support people like hand clappers to come in and help with the session. That said... The Andantes and The Originals tended to be the "go to" guys when formal background voices were needed...

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by StuBass1 View Post
    That is true...Motown being a "family" type organization, which I've mentioned before... would see singers hanging around and a producer could decide that he wanted to add some voices to a project going on in studio A and recruit singers, musicians, or even support people like hand clappers to come in and help with the session. That said... The Andantes and The Originals tended to be the "go to" guys when formal background voices were needed...
    Right and also they were stationary there in Detroit.

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Fullfillingnessfirstfinale View Post
    Another interesting question for me personally, what were the relationships between each other ? The Andantes with Mary & Cindy, Roz & Betty or Ann & Kat. Were there harmonized or more a rivalry ?
    I donít think there was a rivalry or any animosity. As Mary said when Jimmy Webb used the Blossoms on their recordings, she took it personally against the Supremes and not against the Blossoms. I assume thatís similar to the Andantes. Plus the Andantes in their book speak highly of the groups. I assume they got along and if ever there was any animosity it certainly doesnít exist today.

  38. #88
    Even Tony Orlando and Dawn originally released their first recordings, Candida and the huge hit Knock Three Times (and an album), as "Dawn" since Tony didnt want to use his own name at the time. The Dawn singers were session singers, including Jay Siegel, formerly lead singer of the Tokens (The Lion Sleeps Tonight) and the original Jay & The Americans and other groups, along with three east coast based female singers. When the songs became hits, Tony recruited Joyce, Telma, and Pam… even though the original Dawn were different singers... they understood that the record company and producers decided how the group would carry on and with which performers... I don't recall Siegel, Cynthia Weil, Linda November, or Tony Wine complaining (or the people who bought the records or those who attended their tour shows based on those two other recordings, as everyone got paid for their work...

  39. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    I don’t think there was a rivalry or any animosity. As Mary said when Jimmy Webb used the Blossoms on their recordings, she took it personally against the Supremes and not against the Blossoms. I assume that’s similar to the Andantes. Plus the Andantes in their book speak highly of the groups. I assume they got along and if ever there was any animosity it certainly doesn’t exist today.
    Jean Terrell said that she did not even know that the Blossoms were even on the album! Oh well! LOL!

  40. #90
    I don't think anyone else even cares about any of this.....but us! LOL!!!

  41. #91
    Part of the reason this is such an issue is that it involved the most successful female group of all time and one of the most successful female singers of all time

  42. #92
    As stated,berry would use whom ever was around in those days-contract on love-stevie wonder[i'm sure you can hear the temps in the background]born to love you-temps-[jimmy ruffin joined joined the group on this one]-not now i'll tell you later-temps-[the supremes including diana sang along too]...fraud??? No..music history being made-yes!!

  43. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Part of the reason this is such an issue is that it involved the most successful female group of all time and one of the most successful female singers of all time
    It is a non-issue. It is only an "issue" to those that want to lessen the importance of individual group members. The records sold, case closed!

  44. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by arr&bee View Post
    As stated,berry would use whom ever was around in those days-contract on love-stevie wonder[i'm sure you can hear the temps in the background]born to love you-temps-[jimmy ruffin joined joined the group on this one]-not now i'll tell you later-temps-[the supremes including diana sang along too]...fraud??? No..music history being made-yes!!
    There was no fraud. The Four Tops backed up Stevie, Martha Reeves, The Supremes etc. The Supremes and Vandellas backed up Marvin Gaye, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Mary Wells, Barbara McNair, and others. I know Berry Gordy would not have signed any of these folks if they could not sing and sing well. Trying to make a big deal out of what certain producers did with certain recordings is a bit on the ridiculous side if we're being honest here. Heck, Marvin Gaye played the drums on some early sessions. What does that mean? There's no fraud involved here.

  45. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    It is a non-issue. It is only an "issue" to those that want to lessen the importance of individual group members. The records sold, case closed!
    Exactly MArvin! Collectively or as an aggregate, however you look at it, The Supremes as a GROUP will always be the no 1 female group. I wonder if he purchased his Diana Ross blow up doll yet lol!

  46. #96
    I saw the Supremes and 4 Tops a number of times and they were sensational...not an Andante in sight. I would have loved to hear the distinctive voices of Mary and Cindy on Love Child and Someday. Did anyone ever consider those records may have sounded even BETTER?? We loved the groups not the Andantes. It also seemed stupid to me to replace group members on recordings ....Creating ill will as Katherine Anderson has said.
    Last edited by luke; 07-12-2019 at 05:18 PM.

  47. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I saw the Supremes and 4 Tops a number of times and they were sensational...not an Andante in sight. I would have loved to hear the distinctive voices of Mary and Cindy on Love Child and Someday. Did anyone ever consider those records may have sounded even BETTER?? We loved the groups not the Andantes. It also seemed stupid to me to replace group members on recordings ....Creating ill will as Katherine Anderson has said.
    We have all the proof we need of how good Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong sound together. For one example, just check out the harmonies on the "The Supremes" album from 1975.

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I saw the Supremes and 4 Tops a number of times and they were sensational...not an Andante in sight. I would have loved to hear the distinctive voices of Mary and Cindy on Love Child and Someday. Did anyone ever consider those records may have sounded even BETTER?? We loved the groups not the Andantes. It also seemed stupid to me to replace group members on recordings ....Creating ill will as Katherine Anderson has said.
    There are several songs that I think would have sounded better with Mary and Cindy such as I'm Living In Shame, The Composer, etc. but with Love Child, I gotta go with the Andantes. Hearing Mary and Cindy perform the song live, I just dont think they sounded great compared to the Andantes. In fact I always thought Love Child live was the worst live rendition of all of the hits.

  49. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    There are several songs that I think would have sounded better with Mary and Cindy such as I'm Living In Shame, The Composer, etc. but with Love Child, I gotta go with the Andantes. Hearing Mary and Cindy perform the song live, I just dont think they sounded great compared to the Andantes. In fact I always thought Love Child live was the worst live rendition of all of the hits.
    I agree. I never cared for any live rendition of "Love Child." Mary and Cindy just couldn't seem to get the hang of the pace of the song especially on "Wait, why you wait, now hold on." It always seemed like they were rushing it. They never fully could capture the rhythm and pace of it. It just seems off.

  50. #100
    The Andantes were sensational on Love Child. I donít think no one could have done it better! And the public loved it. Their biggest seller.

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