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Thread: Supremes Duets

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    Supremes Duets

    I think it's safe to say that the consensus is pairing DRATS with the Tempts was a smart move, even if the output was rather hit and miss. The chemistry was right, which is key to any musical pairing. On the other hand, the fandom seems to be all over the place with thoughts regarding the combo of Jean led Supremes and the Four Tops for a variety of reasons. But I'm curious what you all think about the following scenarios:

    1) What if DRATS had been paired with the Four Tops instead of the Tempts? Would Diana and Levi be a good match? Part of what made the tv specials work with DRATS and Tempts is that both groups were excellent show people, great all around entertainers. Would the Tops have come across as well?

    2) Do you think the 70s Tempts would've been a better fit for Jean and the girls than Levi and the guys?

    3) Had Ruffin remained a Tempt, do you think this would've changed the chemistry for the better or worse or not at all when the Tempts started recording and performing with the Supremes? In other words, would David had been a good duet partner for Diana?

    4) Lastly, should the Supremes had been paired with the Tempts and/or Tops during the Flo years? I have to say I personally think anything we would've gotten from the two groups with Florence and David still a part of the unit would've contained a different feeling, the thought of which pleases me more than what we ended up with [[for the most part).

    Thoughts?

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    1) I think a Diana / Levi pairing during the 60s era could have been interesting. If they had the time, HDH might have pulled out some real masterpieces that would have worked well. However, I don't think the tv specials would have worked as well. I think the Supremes and Tempts were both exciting visually and vocally and I don't get that from the Tops.

    2) I've seen photos of the 70s Supremes and Tempts on stage together. It might have been interesting in the studio. But I think both groups weren't the same almost counterparts that they were in the 60s. Vocally, I think Jean's vocals worked better with Levi than they would have with Dennis and the Tempts. As much as some fans herald Jean's addition to the group as a return to soul, to me, Jean is as much of a pop vocalist as Diana is.

    3) Diana/David duets. Again, this could be interesting. Diana was able to hang with Dennis and Paul, so she was certainly capable. And the medley on Ed Sullivan was great. But I think their might have been some competitiveness with Diana and David that might not have translated well to duets.

    4) Re a Flo years pairing with the Tempts, there is a Mike Douglas appearance with both groups that I hope surfaces one day. It certainly could have been a great pairing on record. But I'm not sure if either group was ready to carry a network tv special during those years.
    Last edited by reese; 07-07-2019 at 08:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    1) I think a Diana / Levi pairing during the 60s era could have been interesting. If they had the time, HDH might have pulled out some real masterpieces that would have worked well. However, I don't think the tv specials would have worked as well. I think the Supremes and Tempts were both exciting visually and vocally and I don't get that from the Tops.

    2) I've seen photos of the 70s Supremes and Tempts on stage together. It might have been interesting in the studio. But I think both groups weren't the same almost counterparts that they were in the 60s. Vocally, I think Jean's vocals worked better with Levi than they would have with Dennis and the Tempts. As much as some fans herald Jean's addition to the group as a return to soul, to me, Jean is as much of a pop vocalist as Diana is.

    3) Diana/David duets. Again, this could be interesting. Diana was able to hang with Dennis and Paul, so she was certainly capable. And the medley on Ed Sullivan was great. But I think their might have been some competitiveness with Diana and David that might not have translated well to duets.

    4) Re a Flo years pairing with the Tempts, there is a Mike Douglas appearance with both groups that I hope surfaces one day. It certainly could have been a great pairing on record. But I'm not sure if either group was read to carry a network tv special during those years.
    Wow! That is an EXCELLENT summary of the strengths and weaknesses of the various possible pairings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance View Post
    Wow! That is an EXCELLENT summary of the strengths and weaknesses of the various possible pairings.
    Many thanks. But reading it over again, I see that I really need to find another word for "interesting."

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    I agree with WaitingWatching, Reese I knew you'd have "interesting" ideas about the subject.

    To me the idea of pairing Ross and Ruffin is so intriguing. But Reese you make a great point about their competitiveness. I would like to think whoever was producing would be able to handle that situation so that the duets turn out perfect. It's worth pointing out, I think, that Ross' ego was obviously bigger than ever during the DRATS period, but there was no one in the Tempts at that point whose ego was anywhere near as big. Had David remained, he was basically the male version of Diana Ross. It might have gotten ugly.

    I've seen a photo or two of the Supremes and Tempts together on Mike Douglas. I too am hoping that the actual film is discovered. I've never seen it mentioned what they sang together. I agree that neither group was ready to carry a television special, but I think we would've gotten some great music from the pre-fired Flo and David years Supremes and Temptations.

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    As great as they were singing solo songs from Marvin Gaye, Mary Wells, etc. I blame them and Berry for false advertising various Supremes singles. Why couldn't Mary and Cindy be on "I'm Going to Make You Love Me". I know they later admitted to doing Love Child. Can't believe how many people were suckered into buying that single and album [[a few of the tracks were done by those girls).


    For the Florence era I can't believe people claim these girls re-cut the song "Stop! In the Name of Love" and "Children's Christmas Song"


    Would any of you get Louvain to clear some confusions on this forum I didn't like false advertising of Supremes singing the hits.
    Last edited by IMissFlo93; 07-07-2019 at 09:55 AM.

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    i think the duet lineups were correctly done. Eddie kendricks and Diana had a strong blend together. and while other singers in the Tempts also did some leads, i think the E and D combo was the strongest

    likewise with the 70s. Jean and Levi were a powerful combination. his sound was muscular and hers was silky

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    Here is a video of Diana and Levi. Definitely does not qualify as a duet. Diana is doing background and playing the tambourine too. She does sometimes mistakingly switch and does sing the lead part with Levi. She even does a bit of the Tops choreography in the beginning. Diana haters will enjoy that she is doing background and can barely be heard.

    She is definitely enjoying the night and the Tops induction into the R&R Hall of Fame


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    Here is a nice edited version of a duet with Diana and Levi singing SHAKE ME WAKE ME, along with the Supremes and Tops


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    I always thought a pairing of the Supremes [[Mary, Cindy and Scherrie) with the Miracles [[Billy Griffin, Pete, Ronnie and Bobby) would have been a good and interesting duet.

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    Mary had said she and Cindy were on the singles with the temptations it is possible that the andantes were added in.
    Quote Originally Posted by IMissFlo93 View Post



    As great as they were singing solo songs from Marvin Gaye, Mary Wells, etc. I blame them and Berry for false advertising various Supremes singles. Why couldn't Mary and Cindy be on "I'm Going to Make You Love Me". I know they later admitted to doing Love Child. Can't believe how many people were suckered into buying that single and album [[a few of the tracks were done by those girls).


    For the Florence era I can't believe people claim these girls re-cut the song "Stop! In the Name of Love" and "Children's Christmas Song"


    Would any of you get Louvain to clear some confusions on this forum I didn't like false advertising of Supremes singing the hits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Mary had said she and Cindy were on the singles with the temptations it is possible that the andantes were added in.
    All the Supremes are on "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me". The Supremes/Temptations duet albums have Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong on all the songs.

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    I wouldn’t go that far. Mary and Cindy aren’t on Sweet Inspiration , Try It Baby or I Second That Emotion.
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    All the Supremes are on "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me". The Supremes/Temptations duet albums have Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong on all the songs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    Here is a nice edited version of a duet with Diana and Levi singing SHAKE ME WAKE ME, along with the Supremes and Tops

    This was one of the reasons I posed the question. I was listening to the mashup not long ago and I thought Diana and Levi sound pretty good together. Of course this was achieved by utilizing current technology some 50+ years after the fact, so what might have been had Gordy thought it a good move to pair the Supremes earlier with duet partners and chosen the Four Tops?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I always thought a pairing of the Supremes [[Mary, Cindy and Scherrie) with the Miracles [[Billy Griffin, Pete, Ronnie and Bobby) would have been a good and interesting duet.
    Oh now that might have been nice! I never thought about that. The Miracles rebounded nicely after Smokey's exit in much the same way the Supremes did when Diana left. I think by the time MSC were coming on, the Miracles w/ Billy were hitting their stride. Might have served the new grouping of Supremes well to be tied to it. I could hear them doing something like "Then Came You" by the Spinners and Dionne or "Hope We Can Be Together Soon" by HM&Bluenotes and Sharon Paige.

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    Any thoughts regarding pairing the Supremes with Marvin Gaye? I think the coupling of him and Mary Wells was a good move. The two of them meshed very well together. And then Marvin with Tammi T was genius. I'm not sure who I would rank above them as being the most charismatic duet partners. But I've never understood putting Marvin with Oma or Kim Weston. Not that they didn't record some good to great stuff, especially Marvin and Kim, but I don't know if I would've thought to make that move myself. In the 70s when Marvin and Diana were put together, they did make some great stuff, but I think both artists were in such different places, even artistically, that it was ultimately the wrong time to put them together. But in the mid 60s? I think the voices of Diana and Marvin would've really worked well together. Plus both Marvin and the Supremes were doing a lot of recording and performing of showtunes and jazzy material around the same time. It might have made for a very interesting album.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Mary had said she and Cindy were on the singles with the temptations it is possible that the andantes were added in.
    Mary has said lots of things that have turned out to be untrue.

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    By your opinion. And she was the one who let us know who the andantes were and which songs she wasn’t on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    Mary has said lots of things that have turned out to be untrue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    By your opinion. And she was the one who let us know who the andantes were and which songs she wasn’t on.
    Perfect! BAM! Got him!

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    much of mary's chronology in her first book was simply listing the dates when tracks INTENDED for the supremes were first recorded. in general, the songs were "assigned" to a group even at an early stage so that in the future, they could be billed for that time. If HDH had arranged for studio time to record the backing track to 10 songs with the band/orchestra, they'd need to know, of the 10 songs, which were initially going to go to the sups, the elgins, the tops, etc, etc.

    So in her research for that first book, much of the recording date info is based off of these session logs. NOT based off of when she, cindy, diana and/or flo were in a studio laying down their vocals. hence we have a lots of songs that were intended for the sups but never received sup vocals. it was certainly an admirable first step and mapping out all of the recording data. but in the subsequent years, there has been a lot of revision to this information

    Mary also never says she and cindy were on EVERY duet recording. what she says comes in the section of her book where she comments on Living In Shame and how she declined to sing on it because she found it melodramatic and lacking a message. She then goes on to say that from this point forward, she and Cindy would only sing on the SINGLES they recorded with the tempts.

    she never said she and cindy recorded every duet

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    much of mary's chronology in her first book was simply listing the dates when tracks INTENDED for the supremes were first recorded. in general, the songs were "assigned" to a group even at an early stage so that in the future, they could be billed for that time. If HDH had arranged for studio time to record the backing track to 10 songs with the band/orchestra, they'd need to know, of the 10 songs, which were initially going to go to the sups, the elgins, the tops, etc, etc.

    So in her research for that first book, much of the recording date info is based off of these session logs. NOT based off of when she, cindy, diana and/or flo were in a studio laying down their vocals. hence we have a lots of songs that were intended for the sups but never received sup vocals. it was certainly an admirable first step and mapping out all of the recording data. but in the subsequent years, there has been a lot of revision to this information

    Mary also never says she and cindy were on EVERY duet recording. what she says comes in the section of her book where she comments on Living In Shame and how she declined to sing on it because she found it melodramatic and lacking a message. She then goes on to say that from this point forward, she and Cindy would only sing on the SINGLES they recorded with the tempts.

    she never said she and cindy recorded every duet
    I know that there are some out there that loved everything the Supremes ever did, but I did not care for most of what was recorded as "The Supremes" after Florence was no longer in the group, until Jean Terrell joined. So roughly 1968-69 a lot of that stuff just did not have a spark to me.

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    A lot of stuff was released to "feed the machine"...'68/'69 were definitely commercial overkill...die hard fans like me had to buy EVERYTHING...but it was too much for the general public to absorb...4 duet pairings in less than 18 months, and 6 solo LP's plus a 3rd hits package, and a very soon 1970 upcoming live LP and 2 debuts?? I guess since the musical climate was all over the place with psychedelic / harder southern soul /singer songwriter superpowers emerging they took a lot of chances...the duet LPS were VERY heavy on covers and exploited the Jobete catalogue in both line ups. Jean and Levi were perfect together....as were DR and all 3 Tempt lead singers....I don't think DR/LS would have been a very good pairing....he was too strong for her kittenish sound, and I think she would have sounded very immature with Levi....Gladys Knight and Levi would have been a good fit....and Jean Scherrie and Lynda did FLO'S material duetting with The Originals that sounded good. "Back By Popular Demand" is one of my all times Sup's / Sup's Related recordings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    By your opinion. And she was the one who let us know who the andantes were and which songs she wasn’t on.
    Yes by my opinion. How about how she changes her mind about who came up with the term "No hit Supremes" for starters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    much of mary's chronology in her first book was simply listing the dates when tracks INTENDED for the supremes were first recorded. in general, the songs were "assigned" to a group even at an early stage so that in the future, they could be billed for that time. If HDH had arranged for studio time to record the backing track to 10 songs with the band/orchestra, they'd need to know, of the 10 songs, which were initially going to go to the sups, the elgins, the tops, etc, etc.

    So in her research for that first book, much of the recording date info is based off of these session logs. NOT based off of when she, cindy, diana and/or flo were in a studio laying down their vocals. hence we have a lots of songs that were intended for the sups but never received sup vocals. it was certainly an admirable first step and mapping out all of the recording data. but in the subsequent years, there has been a lot of revision to this information

    Mary also never says she and cindy were on EVERY duet recording. what she says comes in the section of her book where she comments on Living In Shame and how she declined to sing on it because she found it melodramatic and lacking a message. She then goes on to say that from this point forward, she and Cindy would only sing on the SINGLES they recorded with the tempts.

    she never said she and cindy recorded every duet
    I find it strange and very unprofessional that a member of the group would decline to sing backing vocals on a song because she found it melodramatic and lacking a message, but she was still paid the same amount of money as Diana wasn't she? Diana herself was not overly fond of that song yet she gamely gave it her best. This displays the difference in the level of professionalism between the two ladies.

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    Can we not turn this thread into a Supreme bash please? I'd appreciate it.

    And just like I don't buy the Marvelettes turning down "Where Did Our Love Go", I don't buy Mary refusing to record "Shame". She did not have that kind of power, first and foremost, and secondly, the Andantes were already pretty much the accepted rule for singles with the big three female groups at Motown. Why would that suddenly change with that silly song?

    And lets just pretend for a moment that the story is true and Mary did turn it down because she objected to it's content. How does that make her less professional than Diana? Maybe Diana didn't have the same objections that Mary had. As a grown woman who is an artist, wouldn't that come with the territory? I seem to recall a story about Diana refusing to sing "You're Nobody Til Somebody Loves You" until Gordy got in her ass and forced her to do it. Sure, she eventually sucked it up and did it [[for too many years btw) but shouldn't she have had the right as an artist to say "I'm not feeling this, and I really don't want to do it"?

    No matter what Mary or Diana do, some of y'all will find a way to turn it into something bigger than it should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    A lot of stuff was released to "feed the machine"...'68/'69 were definitely commercial overkill...die hard fans like me had to buy EVERYTHING...but it was too much for the general public to absorb...4 duet pairings in less than 18 months, and 6 solo LP's plus a 3rd hits package, and a very soon 1970 upcoming live LP and 2 debuts?? I guess since the musical climate was all over the place with psychedelic / harder southern soul /singer songwriter superpowers emerging they took a lot of chances...the duet LPS were VERY heavy on covers and exploited the Jobete catalogue in both line ups. Jean and Levi were perfect together....as were DR and all 3 Tempt lead singers....I don't think DR/LS would have been a very good pairing....he was too strong for her kittenish sound, and I think she would have sounded very immature with Levi....Gladys Knight and Levi would have been a good fit....and Jean Scherrie and Lynda did FLO'S material duetting with The Originals that sounded good. "Back By Popular Demand" is one of my all times Sup's / Sup's Related recordings.
    My initial thought would've been Diana and Levi not a good match, but after the "Shake Me" "duet" I don't know. Levi could be a hard singer, but he was also very adept at pulling back and being equally as effective. I think if Levi pulled back some and Diana kicked it up a notch [[as she also was capable) it might have made for a good match, especially considering both singers were so great at the drama of the lyrics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I know that there are some out there that loved everything the Supremes ever did, but I did not care for most of what was recorded as "The Supremes" after Florence was no longer in the group, until Jean Terrell joined. So roughly 1968-69 a lot of that stuff just did not have a spark to me.
    Wow, two of my favorite "Supremes" songs were released during that period [[Someday We'll Be Together and Love Child). One of the things that I liked about them is that they did not sound like solos and the background singers were an integral part of the songs. Of course, now I know that it was not Mary and Cindy. In Someday, it was a Diana solo released as Supremes single and with Love Child, according to some books, Berry decided to use session singers when Mary said that she was exhausted and decided to vacation in Mexico. Do you also not care for these two songs? I love them

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I always thought a pairing of the Supremes [[Mary, Cindy and Scherrie) with the Miracles [[Billy Griffin, Pete, Ronnie and Bobby) would have been a good and interesting duet.
    I love this idea. Too bad it didn't happen, it might have been a shot-in-the-arm for both groups. I think some of the songs from the Don't Cha Love It album might have been interesting duets for these two groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Can we not turn this thread into a Supreme bash please? I'd appreciate it.

    And just like I don't buy the Marvelettes turning down "Where Did Our Love Go", I don't buy Mary refusing to record "Shame". She did not have that kind of power, first and foremost, and secondly, the Andantes were already pretty much the accepted rule for singles with the big three female groups at Motown. Why would that suddenly change with that silly song?

    And lets just pretend for a moment that the story is true and Mary did turn it down because she objected to it's content. How does that make her less professional than Diana? Maybe Diana didn't have the same objections that Mary had. As a grown woman who is an artist, wouldn't that come with the territory? I seem to recall a story about Diana refusing to sing "You're Nobody Til Somebody Loves You" until Gordy got in her ass and forced her to do it. Sure, she eventually sucked it up and did it [[for too many years btw) but shouldn't she have had the right as an artist to say "I'm not feeling this, and I really don't want to do it"?

    No matter what Mary or Diana do, some of y'all will find a way to turn it into something bigger than it should be.
    I don't think the Supremes had much of a say in any of the material they recorded. Even these days it is usually diwn to the record company to decide what an artist records,unless the artist has got full creative control such as Stevie or Adele. Most of the talent show winners have to record material they dislike. Even the likes of Patti Austin, Phyllis Hyman and Dionne were forced to sing songs they would have preferred not too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I know that there are some out there that loved everything the Supremes ever did, but I did not care for most of what was recorded as "The Supremes" after Florence was no longer in the group, until Jean Terrell joined. So roughly 1968-69 a lot of that stuff just did not have a spark to me.
    Well part of that probably has something to do with you not being a big Diana Ross fan. There was a certain group chemistry, even on record, when Florence was there. Once Flo was gone, and especially once the Andantes became unofficial Supremes, that chemistry was gone, so for the non Diana "solo" people I can imagine the DRATS period didn't have a lot to offer. On top of that, while I find a lot that is appealing during DRATS because I am such a huge Diana fan, even I have to admit that most of the songs recorded sound a bit second rate to what was recorded during the Flo years. For my taste the Flo years were tops, so for this conversation I'll assign the original trio a grade of A+. DRATS took a step up as all around show people, but music wise, they mostly took a step down, so I'd give them a B-. But with Jean the group was back to having a real unbeatable sound vocally, but were hit and miss with the recordings. They were definitely a breath of fresh air from DRATS so I'd give them a A-. IMO if the Jean years had provided top notch tunes throughout, they could've given the original trio a run for their money. Of course I'm a bit partial as my three favorite Supreme voices are Florence, Diana and Jean, so I'm nearly always going to think highly of any combination involving those three.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I know that there are some out there that loved everything the Supremes ever did, but I did not care for most of what was recorded as "The Supremes" after Florence was no longer in the group, until Jean Terrell joined. So roughly 1968-69 a lot of that stuff just did not have a spark to me.
    yeah i don't know that a lot of the later 60s stuff was a "magical" as the earlier or later material. from 64 - 67 there was a definite sound for the Supremes. and even album cuts didn't really deviate from this. once HDH left, they were back at square one. plus the whole music scene had changed so drastically. so the tracks on Love Child, Sunshine, Cream and the vaulted material is much more eclectic. some of it works ok, some of it is super, some is meh

    to my ears, once jean joined, they still experimented with an array of producers. obviously Frank won and produced stunning material. but even the stuff by Clay, Henry Cosby and the others don't seem to be so drastically different. that's why Right On works so well even though the songs are handled by many different producers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    I find it strange and very unprofessional that a member of the group would decline to sing backing vocals on a song because she found it melodramatic and lacking a message, but she was still paid the same amount of money as Diana wasn't she? Diana herself was not overly fond of that song yet she gamely gave it her best. This displays the difference in the level of professionalism between the two ladies.
    i don't feel that it's that much of a professional breech. the song is a piece of crap, lyrically, IMO. and was being done simply to cash in on LC. it's not like D, M and C had sat down as a group and said "hey we're seeing some shocking deterioration in our society and feel compelled to speak out on social injustice. so we want the group to begin to address more topical subjects." Frankly even LC was pandering to a trend, although it's a perfect pop song. it was a 100% contrived product.

    now did mary have a professional duty to show up when required, sing her material and hold up her end of the agreement - sure. was motown, by late 1968, even remotely dealing with M or C in any type of an appropriate professional level? not at all. the two were literally pushed aside w the planning and direction of the group

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i don't feel that it's that much of a professional breech. the song is a piece of crap, lyrically, IMO. and was being done simply to cash in on LC. it's not like D, M and C had sat down as a group and said "hey we're seeing some shocking deterioration in our society and feel compelled to speak out on social injustice. so we want the group to begin to address more topical subjects." Frankly even LC was pandering to a trend, although it's a perfect pop song. it was a 100% contrived product.

    now did mary have a professional duty to show up when required, sing her material and hold up her end of the agreement - sure. was motown, by late 1968, even remotely dealing with M or C in any type of an appropriate professional level? not at all. the two were literally pushed aside w the planning and direction of the group
    In her book "Dreamgirl" Mary states "I didn't sing on I'm Livin' In Shame, which I thought was melodramatic and lacked a message. From this point on, I would not be on any other singles except those we recorded with the Temptations".

    At no point does Mary state that she refused to record the song.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozmo View Post
    In her book "Dreamgirl" Mary states "I didn't sing on I'm Livin' In Shame, which I thought was melodramatic and lacked a message. From this point on, I would not be on any other singles except those we recorded with the Temptations".

    At no point does Mary state that she refused to record the song.

    Thanks for finding this. This is much different from the statement above which says that she refused to record it because of its message and content. But there is the LOVE CHILD story just before LIVING IN SHAME, where her priority was to go to Mexico because she was exhausted, and to do her part when she came back. Because this was a critical song for the group's career, Berry was too impatient to wait and decided not to use either Cindy [[who was available and not exhausted) or Mary. He had Diana record with session singers, the group had their needed big hit as Diana Ross and the Supremes, and as Mary said, Mary and Cindy never recorded with the group again after that except the Temptations sessions.

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    There’s a part of the story that keeps getting cut off. Mary was moving to LA then went to Mexico while there. And if I’m correct, while she was gone, LC was written and recorded It’s one thing if the session was ready to go and Mary refused to record but the song wasn’t written yet when she left.
    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    Thanks for finding this. This is much different from the statement above which says that she refused to record it because of its message and content. But there is the LOVE CHILD story just before LIVING IN SHAME, where her priority was to go to Mexico because she was exhausted, and to do her part when she came back. Because this was a critical song for the group's career, Berry was too impatient to wait and decided not to use either Cindy [[who was available and not exhausted) or Mary. He had Diana record with session singers, the group had their needed big hit as Diana Ross and the Supremes, and as Mary said, Mary and Cindy never recorded with the group again after that except the Temptations sessions.

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    Actually she said she wasn’t on any of the singles except for for the ones they did with the Temptations

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    I'm going to take a guess here, but I'm willing to bet Gordy never had any intention of having Mary and Cindy on "Love Child". Mary's voice hadn't been on a single release since "In and Out of Love", and Cindy had not either. And if Mary was going to skip out on a recording to go to California, why then would Cindy be left out? If the story played out the way Mary claims it did, seems like to me it was more of Berry's mind games and manipulation. He wanted Mary to stay put and thought lingering a carrot in front of her would get her to fall in line. Such silliness.

    It's sad but true reality, to be a star, the industry [[and the fans) force you to give up so much of your humanity. You're not allowed a break, not allowed to be sick, not allowed to grieve, not allowed to get angry. That's an f'd up way to live. No wonder the Supremes [[Flo, Diana and Mary) all seemed to have issues at various points of their lives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I'm going to take a guess here, but I'm willing to bet Gordy never had any intention of having Mary and Cindy on "Love Child". Mary's voice hadn't been on a single release since "In and Out of Love", and Cindy had not either. And if Mary was going to skip out on a recording to go to California, why then would Cindy be left out? If the story played out the way Mary claims it did, seems like to me it was more of Berry's mind games and manipulation. He wanted Mary to stay put and thought lingering a carrot in front of her would get her to fall in line. Such silliness.

    It's sad but true reality, to be a star, the industry [[and the fans) force you to give up so much of your humanity. You're not allowed a break, not allowed to be sick, not allowed to grieve, not allowed to get angry. That's an f'd up way to live. No wonder the Supremes [[Flo, Diana and Mary) all seemed to have issues at various points of their lives.
    I totally agree. When I first heard the story of Mary declining to record LC I thought it was Gordy being manipulative. He probably waited to ask her at a point when she couldn't change her plans. And even if she could change her plans she probably understood that her vocals would probably be mixed with other background singers if even used at all. She probably wasn't physically exhausted but more likely mentally exhausted from Berry Gordy's mind games.
    Last edited by johnjeb; 07-10-2019 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozmo View Post
    In her book "Dreamgirl" Mary states "I didn't sing on I'm Livin' In Shame, which I thought was melodramatic and lacked a message. From this point on, I would not be on any other singles except those we recorded with the Temptations".

    At no point does Mary state that she refused to record the song.
    very good point - i was assuming from your statement that she then opted out of singing on it. but you're right, maybe she wasn't asked and after the fact didn't care since it was a dumb song

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    68 was a crazy busy year.

    the girls were touring overseas for Jan and Feb. US touring in March and planned for April but then the MLK assassination. In May the continued the US touring schedule

    March and April were also full months of recording, many of the songs recorded have M and C on them - Will This Be The Day, you've been so wonderful, he's my sunny boy, nitty gritte and more

    May and June also see them start to work with the Temps in the studio.

    July is the Funny Girl sessions, Frontier Hotel engagement, Hubert Humphrey endorsement and lots of Tempt duet work.

    Aug was all Temps duet and recording, rehearsing and taping TCB

    So by the time you get to Sept, you can see that the girls basically hadn't had any significant time off. and 67 was just a hectic plus you had the headaches of Flo and HDH. It is understandable that Mary needed a break but in Berry's eyes, that was a weakness. Work as much as possible and don't stop was more of his philosophy.

    Had mary NOT gone to LA and Mex, i'm guessing she probably would have been included on LC. as would C and as would the Andantes. in the Andantes' book, one of the women talks about how they come up with part of the background lines as things weren't written. That might also be why the A's were used so much. not only were they good singers but they could help arrange and write their own parts. a producer or writer could get things done faster if they could just give the A's an idea of what they're looking for and let the girls do their thing.

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    I'm guessing that Mary would not have been because it doesn't line up with history. By all accounts, "Love Child" was constructed specifically to give DRATS the number one hit it sorely needed, so everyone involved knew from the jump that it was going to be an A side single. The two singles prior to "Love Child" do not have Mary or Cindy on them, and maybe with exception of the singles with the Tempts, the four[[?) subsequent singles don't have Mary or Cindy on them either. Without looking at their discography, I believe at this point the Andantes were strictly Vandellas and Marvelettes on singles. I'm assuming this was by design, and the thought process included the Andantes [[and others) becoming Supremes on singles also. Mary and Cindy being on "Love Child" just seems unlikely considering what went on before and after the hit. Of course anything is possible.

    The Andantes were very accomplished and polished session vocalists, which is why I think they were so utilized [[if not always outwardly appreciated) at the company. HDH has also said that Florence and Mary sometimes came up with their own background parts also. I really would love to hear more about the Supremes in the studio. I feel like their overall artistry is sat aside in favor of focusing on the behind the scenes drama.

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    M and C were still involved with quite a bit of the background work in 68. by no means all. and many songs had them and the As. so that's why i think, had they been around, both M and C [[plus the As) would have been on Love Child.

    i don't think it was a malicious decision from gordy to say "starting today - no more M and C. I want people to only know Diana's voice." he had already decreed Diana was lead singer and by mid60s, they were barely using F or M on any lead material. That escalated in the DRATS era. but it wasn't so much that they DIDN'T want M and C in backgrounds. i think they were just indifferent about. sort of a "who cares - grab whomever is around and just get the backings done"

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    There’s a part of the story that keeps getting cut off. Mary was moving to LA then went to Mexico while there. And if I’m correct, while she was gone, LC was written and recorded It’s one thing if the session was ready to go and Mary refused to record but the song wasn’t written yet when she left.
    That is exactly true what you said. I will add that Mary said years later, you couldn't understand why they could not wait two weeks for her to get back. She would have recorded the song. That was all Berry Gordy's doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    M and C were still involved with quite a bit of the background work in 68. by no means all. and many songs had them and the As. so that's why i think, had they been around, both M and C [[plus the As) would have been on Love Child.

    i don't think it was a malicious decision from gordy to say "starting today - no more M and C. I want people to only know Diana's voice." he had already decreed Diana was lead singer and by mid60s, they were barely using F or M on any lead material. That escalated in the DRATS era. but it wasn't so much that they DIDN'T want M and C in backgrounds. i think they were just indifferent about. sort of a "who cares - grab whomever is around and just get the backings done"
    No, he would not have said that, because in Mary's contract at least, it states that she could not be replaced on recordings or on stage if she was available to sing [[meaning not sick). Scheduling sessions where she, nor Cindy were in Detroit created a problem that would surface in the 1978 lawsuit Mary filed.

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