Force Behind The Power lp - a discussion

[vgalindo]

I had heard that “Change of Heart” was going to be the title of the album. I wish it wasn’t changed.

[Circa 1824]

I had heard that “Change of Heart” was going to be the title of the album. I wish it wasn’t changed.

It might have been the initial plan since that was going to be the first single.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Loved it then, love it now. Fact is there is probably not a single female vocalist active for the past 50 years who would not wish to claim as their own an lp this accomplished and a vocal as superb as WYTMTYLM.

[lucky2012]

I always loved Change of Heart and it would made a logical single choice as it was written by Graham Lyle and Terry Britten, who also wrote "What's Love Got To Do With It." If I remember correctly, the album was initially announced as "Change of Heart" but was changed when Stevie Wonder delivered Force Behind the Power.

I loved Change of Heart as soon as I heard it and still wish it had been the title song and first single. I also realized the connection with What's Love Got To Do With It and thought Diana might have also had a sizable pop hit. I read that Tina Turner did not like What's Love Got To Do With It [[probably too pop) but Diana's pop credentials are [[almost) as stellar as her status as Motown royalty.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

In 1984, most of Streisand fans didn't understand it wasn't the single of her Emotion LP

Albator, are you saying that when Barbra's fans heard Diana's version of "Heart [[Don't Change My Mind)", they thought it was Barbra's version they were hearing? That's really weird! You would think that Barbra's own fans would know her voice better than that. I can't imagine hearing Barbra's version and thinking it was Diana!

[Albator]

Albator, are you saying that when Barbra's fans heard Diana's version of "Heart [[Don't Change My Mind)", they thought it was Barbra's version they were hearing? That's really weird! You would think that Barbra's own fans would know her voice better than that. I can't imagine hearing Barbra's version and thinking it was Diana!

Not at all.
Since you told , that you and your friends, love HDCMM, and thought It should have been a single, It reminds me that when Streisand issued her Emotion LP in 1984, fans were the same.


When the first single from that LP, barely made the top 40, Fans complained that HDCMM was not the second choice and that it was the best track of the lp and all.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Not at all.
Since you told , that you and your friends, love HDCMM, and thought It should have been a single, It reminds me that when Streisand issued her Emotion LP in 1984, fans were the same.


When the first single from that LP, barely made the top 40, Fans complained that HDCMM was not the second choice et that it was the best track of the lp and all.

Oh, okay. Now I gotcha!

[florence]

I just don't see Change Of Heart being anything more than a moderate UK hit but who knows - I thought the Force single would at the very least go top 20.

It must be a UK thing but I wasn't expecting Heart [[DCMM) to do that well.

It came straight on to the chart at #31 and Diana appeared on the UK's premier music show Top Of The Pops that week.

Generally an appearance here would mean increased sales the following week but the song fell to #35 the next week and fell off the chart after 3 weeks.

The UK public just didn't take to it - maybe it should have been released a couple of weeks earlier around St Valentine's day!

[Guy]

I just don't see Change Of Heart being anything more than a moderate UK hit but who knows - I thought the Force single would at the very least go top 20.

"Change of Heart" really does sound like an outtake from Olivia Newton-John's "Physical" album 10 years earlier in 1980. And that's no shade on ONJ because she's fabulous. But I agree there was no potential for that track as a single in 1991 [[or 1992).

I know appreciation of FBTP is a matter of personal taste. Some listeners will enjoy the album and others will not. I understand it was a successful album in the UK. Really, it is astounding to me that the album found an audience anywhere. However, for a global superstar of her stature having a successful album in the UK is small comfort if it flops hard in the US -- a market several times larger than the UK.

There was tremendous potential for Ross in the early 90s if she worked with musical collaborators [[Narada, Jam & Lewis, Babyface, etc.) who could have helped her craft a solid urban contemporary project. At that time in the US, she was really only relevant to urban audiences. Her support would have come from R&B/Soul radio and, as noted by Reese and others, she made notable appearances on BET and Arsenio in the run up to FBTP. As well with the promise that Stevie Wonder was writing her a fantastic song.

FTBP fails to demonstrate creative, commercial or aesthetic growth. Ross was essentially a commercial artist, her acclaim and celebrity is historically linked to her ability to appeal to a mass audience. FBTP created enduring disappointment among [[younger) American Ross fans who experienced its release in real-time and wanted her to remain relevant alongside her contemporaries. Even "Workin' Overtime" was a Top 5 R&B hit.

As of FBTP, Ross completely ceased being a commercial entity in the U.S. She had no further chart hits on either R&B or Pop charts. In Los Angeles -- a huge market -- I never heard any song from FBTP, TMH or EIAND on the radio. All while Aretha, Cher, Patti Labelle, Bette Midler and Gladys were still enjoying airplay with new music, commercial success and acclaim.

[daviddh]

Great album that was marketed wrong.
Should have been huge

[marv2]

This album was so bad that they couldn't get ANY radio stations to play it. I think Motown was at a loss as to how to promote it. Oh well.

[daviddh]

Motown wasn't even Motown anymore.
It was Motown that was bad not the album.it should have been marketed as adult contemporary style album

[daviddh]

Change of heart was great

[Albator]

This album was so bad that they couldn't get ANY radio stations to play it. I think Motown was at a loss as to how to promote it. Oh well.

This is the third post where you keep saying the same... Do you think you are misunderstood or do you except something else.

[vgalindo]

This is the third post where you keep saying the same... Do you think you are misunderstood or do you except something else.

He’s just being his normal troll self. Lol. Smdh.

[Bluebrock]

He’s just being his normal troll self. Lol. Smdh.

Ain't that the truth.

[Ollie9]

"Change of Heart" really does sound like an outtake from Olivia Newton-John's "Physical" album 10 years earlier in 1980. And that's no shade on ONJ because she's fabulous. But I agree there was no potential for that track as a single in 1991 [[or 1992).

I know appreciation of FBTP is a matter of personal taste. Some listeners will enjoy the album and others will not. I understand it was a successful album in the UK. Really, it is astounding to me that the album found an audience anywhere. However, for a global superstar of her stature having a successful album in the UK is small comfort if it flops hard in the US -- a market several times larger than the UK.

There was tremendous potential for Ross in the early 90s if she worked with musical collaborators [[Narada, Jam & Lewis, Babyface, etc.) who could have helped her craft a solid urban contemporary project. At that time in the US, she was really only relevant to urban audiences. Her support would have come from R&B/Soul radio and, as noted by Reese and others, she made notable appearances on BET and Arsenio in the run up to FBTP. As well with the promise that Stevie Wonder was writing her a fantastic song.

FTBP fails to demonstrate creative, commercial or aesthetic growth. Ross was essentially a commercial artist, her acclaim and celebrity is historically linked to her ability to appeal to a mass audience. FBTP created enduring disappointment among [[younger) American Ross fans who experienced its release in real-time and wanted her to remain relevant alongside her contemporaries. Even "Workin' Overtime" was a Top 5 R&B hit.

As of FBTP, Ross completely ceased being a commercial entity in the U.S. She had no further chart hits on either R&B or Pop charts. In Los Angeles -- a huge market -- I never heard any song from FBTP, TMH or EIAND on the radio. All while Aretha, Cher, Patti Labelle, Bette Midler and Gladys were still enjoying airplay with new music, commercial success and acclaim.

I agree with some of what you post Guy but in all truth Diana could have put out the most relevant and contemporary R & B album of the year [[91) and it still would not have sold in America. There are many reasons as to why.
As regards FBTP, it was not just the UK where it hit big. It also sold well in Japan and throughout Europe. Perhaps this success was due to the very fact that Diana was not trying to follow any trends with this one. I still regard it as a solid set of pop songs, it's the vanilla production that lets it down in places...

[vgalindo]

"Change of Heart" really does sound like an outtake from Olivia Newton-John's "Physical" album 10 years earlier in 1980. And that's no shade on ONJ because she's fabulous. But I agree there was no potential for that track as a single in 1991 [[or 1992).

I know appreciation of FBTP is a matter of personal taste. Some listeners will enjoy the album and others will not. I understand it was a successful album in the UK. Really, it is astounding to me that the album found an audience anywhere. However, for a global superstar of her stature having a successful album in the UK is small comfort if it flops hard in the US -- a market several times larger than the UK.

There was tremendous potential for Ross in the early 90s if she worked with musical collaborators [[Narada, Jam & Lewis, Babyface, etc.) who could have helped her craft a solid urban contemporary project. At that time in the US, she was really only relevant to urban audiences. Her support would have come from R&B/Soul radio and, as noted by Reese and others, she made notable appearances on BET and Arsenio in the run up to FBTP. As well with the promise that Stevie Wonder was writing her a fantastic song.

FTBP fails to demonstrate creative, commercial or aesthetic growth. Ross was essentially a commercial artist, her acclaim and celebrity is historically linked to her ability to appeal to a mass audience. FBTP created enduring disappointment among [[younger) American Ross fans who experienced its release in real-time and wanted her to remain relevant alongside her contemporaries. Even "Workin' Overtime" was a Top 5 R&B hit.

As of FBTP, Ross completely ceased being a commercial entity in the U.S. She had no further chart hits on either R&B or Pop charts. In Los Angeles -- a huge market -- I never heard any song from FBTP, TMH or EIAND on the radio. All while Aretha, Cher, Patti Labelle, Bette Midler and Gladys were still enjoying airplay with new music, commercial success and acclaim.

Diana Ross was not the only veteran artist who was struggling to have commercial success during the 90s. I bought every Gladys Knight album during this time. And they were all really good but I don’t remember her having any really big commercial hits either except for “Missing You” that she collaborated with Brandy, Tamia, and Chaka Khan that hit #2 on the R&B charts. Diana also hit #4 on the R&B charts with Al B Sure “No Matter What you do”. And looking at Patti LaBelle she really didn’t have any big commercial success in the 90s either.

[Albator]

Diana Ross was not the only veteran artist who was struggling to have commercial success during the 90s. I bought every Gladys Knight album during this time. And they were all really good but I don’t remember her having any really big commercial hits either except for “Missing You” that she collaborated with Brandy, Tamia, and Chaka Khan that hit #2 on the R&B charts. Diana also hit #4 on the R&B charts with Al B Sure “No Matter What you do”. And looking at Patti LaBelle she really didn’t have any big commercial success in the 90s either.

Diana was out, like Olivia Newton John. The Eaten Alive review in 85, predicted the same fate for the two singers, for the same reason. They were right, except that Diana maintained her iconic super Diva status.
Except for one unexpected hit, Donna was on the same boat.

[lucky2012]

"Change of Heart" really does sound like an outtake from Olivia Newton-John's "Physical" album 10 years earlier in 1980. And that's no shade on ONJ because she's fabulous. But I agree there was no potential for that track as a single in 1991 [[or 1992).

I know appreciation of FBTP is a matter of personal taste. Some listeners will enjoy the album and others will not. I understand it was a successful album in the UK. Really, it is astounding to me that the album found an audience anywhere. However, for a global superstar of her stature having a successful album in the UK is small comfort if it flops hard in the US -- a market several times larger than the UK.

There was tremendous potential for Ross in the early 90s if she worked with musical collaborators [[Narada, Jam & Lewis, Babyface, etc.) who could have helped her craft a solid urban contemporary project. At that time in the US, she was really only relevant to urban audiences. Her support would have come from R&B/Soul radio and, as noted by Reese and others, she made notable appearances on BET and Arsenio in the run up to FBTP. As well with the promise that Stevie Wonder was writing her a fantastic song.

FTBP fails to demonstrate creative, commercial or aesthetic growth. Ross was essentially a commercial artist, her acclaim and celebrity is historically linked to her ability to appeal to a mass audience. FBTP created enduring disappointment among [[younger) American Ross fans who experienced its release in real-time and wanted her to remain relevant alongside her contemporaries. Even "Workin' Overtime" was a Top 5 R&B hit.

As of FBTP, Ross completely ceased being a commercial entity in the U.S. She had no further chart hits on either R&B or Pop charts. In Los Angeles -- a huge market -- I never heard any song from FBTP, TMH or EIAND on the radio. All while Aretha, Cher, Patti Labelle, Bette Midler and Gladys were still enjoying airplay with new music, commercial success and acclaim.

Thanks for a thoughtful post. I agree and disagree with some of your thoughts. "Change of Heart" connects Diana more with Tina Turner as it was written by Terry Britten and Graham Lyle, the composers of "What's Love Got To Do With It", Tina's 1984 global pop hit. I had hoped Diana could and would also hit big in 1991. Admittedly, it was a few years later and it was the time for Whitney, Janet & Mariah. [[I wonder how it would have played if Change of Heart was on Diana's Swept Away album in 1984?)
Diana's connection with Olivia is with "It's Your Move" [[on Swept Away), which was written by Steve Kipner and Terry Shaddick, who had written "Physical", ONJ's 1981 global pop hit. Unlike "Change of Heart", I thought "It's Your Move" was just a nice-enough album track, not a potential hit single. [[I guess that's what you think of "Change".)

I agree that appreciation of FBHTP is a personal matter but I'm not at all astounded by it's reception in the UK and elsewhere. I think it deserved its success and was happy to know about it. I guess nations or "markets" can have their own "personal" tastes.
I think Diana did reach out to the urban contemporary market as the 90's progressed. "Take Me Higher", after all, was written and produced by Narada Michael Walden and on that album the beautiful "Gone" was written by Jon John of Babyface's production company. "Keep It Right There" even had a co-writer credit for Babyface. I loved Diana's interpretation of Brenda Russell's "Let Somebody Know".
FBTP was not a creative or aesthetic extension but neither was it just "following a trend" as Ollie9 pointed out. I welcomed a return-to-form after WO [[a matter of personal taste).
In the 90's, Mariah, Whitney, Celine & Janet reigned. All of the previous generation of female superstars had to make way. Through it all, up to the present year, as Albator stated, "Diana has maintained her iconic super Diva status", along with Barbra, Aretha, Cher and Bette.

[Albator]

Thanks for a thoughtful post. I agree and disagree with some of your thoughts. "Change of Heart" connects Diana more with Tina Turner as it was written by Terry Britten and Graham Lyle, the composers of "What's Love Got To Do With It", Tina's 1984 global pop hit. I had hoped Diana could and would also hit big in 1991. Admittedly, it was a few years later and it was the time for Whitney, Janet & Mariah. [[I wonder how it would have played if Change of Heart was on Diana's Swept Away album in 1984?)
Diana's connection with Olivia is with "It's Your Move" [[on Swept Away), which was written by Steve Kipner and Terry Shaddick, who had written "Physical", ONJ's 1981 global pop hit. Unlike "Change of Heart", I thought "It's Your Move" was just a nice-enough album track, not a potential hit single. [[I guess that's what you think of "Change".)

Terry Britten and Graham Lyle wrote "toughen up" for Olivia in 1985, her "Soul Kiss" album. But it was a flop

[Guy]

I appreciate thoughtful discussion on FBTP. It is just an unwelcome blip in her recording career for me, I am heartened that so many of her fans like it. I felt she let us down with it but clearly others feel very differently. It's great that FBTP inspires so much discussion [[and goodwill) 30 years after the fact. She's still The Boss.

Thanks for a thoughtful post. I agree and disagree with some of your thoughts. "Change of Heart" connects Diana more with Tina Turner as it was written by Terry Britten and Graham Lyle, the composers of "What's Love Got To Do With It", Tina's 1984 global pop hit. I had hoped Diana could and would also hit big in 1991. Admittedly, it was a few years later and it was the time for Whitney, Janet & Mariah. [[I wonder how it would have played if Change of Heart was on Diana's Swept Away album in 1984?)
Diana's connection with Olivia is with "It's Your Move" [[on Swept Away), which was written by Steve Kipner and Terry Shaddick, who had written "Physical", ONJ's 1981 global pop hit. Unlike "Change of Heart", I thought "It's Your Move" was just a nice-enough album track, not a potential hit single. [[I guess that's what you think of "Change".)

Terry Britten and Graham Lyle wrote "toughen up" for Olivia in 1985, her "Soul Kiss" album. But it was a flop

That's funny. I hadn't intended to suggest any actual connection between ONJ and Ross. ONJ is just my go-to to describe decidedly pop music. "Change of Heart" has the same vanilla bounce as some of ONJ early-80s tracks like "Tied Up" and "Make A Move On Me." She could have recorded "Change of Heart" in 1981 and had a moderate hit with it. Tina Turner NEVER would have recorded "Change of Heat" in the late 80s or early 90s. It no longer sounded like hit in the commercial landscape of 1991.

Diana Ross was not the only veteran artist who was struggling to have commercial success during the 90s. I bought every Gladys Knight album during this time. And they were all really good but I don’t remember her having any really big commercial hits either except for "Missing You" that she collaborated with Brandy, Tamia, and Chaka Khan that hit #2 on the R&B charts. Diana also hit #4 on the R&B charts with Al B Sure "No Matter What you do". And looking at Patti LaBelle she really didn’t have any big commercial success in the 90s either.

Interestingly, in 1991, Gladys and Patti recorded for MCA Records, its black music division was under the supervision of Jheryl Busby -- who was also head of Motown. FBTP was released a few months after Gladys Knight's "Good Woman" and a month before Patti Labelle's "Burnin." Gladys and Patti were both certified gold in the US. Gladys had a No. 1 R&B hit with "Men" and Patti had THREE top 5 R&B hits off of "Burnin." Patti also won her first Grammy for "Burnin." If Jheryl Busby was able to get Patti and Gladys to those commercial heights, imagine what he could have done with a solid, radio-friendly urban contemporary project from the Queen of Motown.

True story -- in October-ish 1991, I went to Wherehouse Records [[RIP) to buy Patti Labelle's "Burnin'" and Vanessa Williams' "Comfort Zone." I was just browsing and -- bam -- there was Diana Ross's FBTP! I wasn't even aware that it had been released. The wait had been so long and then it dropped with no publicity. So I bought all three on the same day. I only listened to FBTP once -- disappointed. I listened to "Burnin" and "Comfort Zone" regularly.

Though Vanessa Williams is obviously of a younger generation, "Comfort Zone" had a very adult-contemporary vibe and was exactly the type of project that would have suited Ross at that point. It was loaded with Ross-like pop/soul ballads -- "Saved The Best For Last", "Goodbye", "Just For Tonight", "One Reason", etc. And Ross could have managed the uptempo songs too. "Comfort Zone" was certified 3x platinum in the U.S. As lucky2012 noted, it is exactly the type of urban contemporary transition she attempted [[too late) with "Take Me Higher." The damage had already been done with FBTP.

I agree with some of what you post Guy but in all truth Diana could have put out the most relevant and contemporary R & B album of the year [[91) and it still would not have sold in America. There are many reasons as to why.

I am sure some of the insiders here know something about the relationship between Jheryl Busby and Ross and that could explain why her U.S. recording career floundered under his watch. Please share...

[Ollie9]

^ .
1. New artists such as Whitney, Janet and Mariah now ruled so pop radio was not behind her.
2. Diana was now older, and America is not known for it's loyalty regarding veteran artists.
3. Diana still insisted on total control and i'm sure would not have listened to any advice were it given.
4. Possibly, perhaps and maybe America had fallen a litlle out of love with her since the M.W book.

[daviddh]

^ .
1. New artists such as Whitney, Janet and Mariah now ruled so pop radio was not behind her.
2. Diana was now older, and America is not known for it's loyalty regarding veteran artists.
3. Diana still insisted on total control and i'm sure would not have listened to any advice were it given.
4. Possibly, perhaps and maybe America had fallen a litlle out of love with her since the M.W book.

Totally agree. The book did a lot of damage and unfortunately no one was doing any damage control. And Motown 25 didn't help the way it was edited

[Albator]

Totally agree. The book did a lot of damage and unfortunately no one was doing any damage control. And Motown 25 didn't help the way it was edited

Even if it is against this forum trend to say so, I think that everything she is criticized for, has become an accepted rule for the current black performers.
She and Berry Gordy were ahead of their time.

[Ollie9]

Even if it is against this forum trend to say so, I think that everything she is criticized for, has become an accepted rule for the current black performers.
She and Berry Gordy were ahead of their time.

Diana's career was totally controlled by Berry Gordy. He made the decisions. When she left motown she made some really bad career decisions. What is the accepted rule Albatar, i'm confused?.

[Albator]

Diana's career was totally controlled by Berry Gordy. He made the decisions. When she left motown she made some really bad career decisions. What is the accepted rule Albatar, i'm confused?.

Not in this section of the forum. All those consideration about what is a « true » r&b singer, a « true » soul singer and all... ridiculous when it comes to Diana Ross IMO. She is much broader then that

I wonder how many "true" soul or R&B singers and especially from Motown, could sing along Placido Domingo and Jose Carrera, and not be out of place!

And she did that, the same month she did her Jazz concert in NY and also promoted her FBTP album.

Not that bad

[RanRan79]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: nothing in Mary Wilson's books caused people to vow "I'll never buy that witch's music ever again!" For the anti Ross crowd [[who tend to be pro Wilson) the book dropped at the right time in Diana's career. What if Mary had written the book during The Boss period? Does anyone believe that it would've killed any possible success of the 1980 album or it's singles? I sure don't. What killed the public on Diana by the 90s is that her last two albums for RCA sucked butt and then she was MIA for a handful of years after marrying and having two children in a very short period of time. When she finally reappeared, her first new Motown album didn't even resonate with her core fan base so of course the general public was less than enthused despite the success of the title single. And from what I've read in this thread, Motown apparently bungled [[once again) the publicity for the FBTP album. None of that makes an artists in her 40s a continued hit maker if someone with a lot of power isn't pushing in her corner.

While Black folks could sometimes be the hardest on Diana, we also were the ones who rocked with her the longest. So even after Mary's book, years after the book, Diana was still able to make it into the top 5 r&b twice [[of course one of those was with Al). And Motown 25 didn't cut into her sales either because a year after that Diana hit big not only with "Swept Away" and "Missing You" but with their parent album also. Mary's book gave the media something to talk about, which gave the folks at home something to talk about. But had Diana been dropping the kind of music that sounded as good and relevant as the junior divas who were hitting big at this time, we'd be talking about this point in her music history a little differently.

The biggest blow from Mary's book was to her relationship with Diana. Diana herself was the biggest blow to her own career.

[Ollie9]

Not in this section of the forum. All those consideration about what is a « true » r&b singer, a « true » soul singer and all... ridiculous when it comes to Diana Ross IMO. She is much broader then that

I wonder how many "true" soul or R&B singers and especially from Motown, could sing along Placido Domingo and Jose Carrera, and not be out of place!

And she did that, the same month she did her Jazz concert in NY and also promoted her FBTP album.

Not that bad

Diana has always been an extremely versaltile artist Albator. Having said that it is not always a wise decision to alienate your core fan base with over experimentation. A little can be a good thing, but an artist needs to have some self awareness as to what their fans want to hear and what made them famous in the first place. It's a fine line.
Retuning to topic, as far as the USA was concerned Diana had comitted the cardinal sin of getting older. For the most part America has never been loyal to veteran artists. To rest of the world it was of no matter and it continued to enjoy some of the wonderful music Diana was releasing throughout the 90's.....For me from 89.

[Bluebrock]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: nothing in Mary Wilson's books caused people to vow "I'll never buy that witch's music ever again!" For the anti Ross crowd [[who tend to be pro Wilson) the book dropped at the right time in Diana's career. What if Mary had written the book during The Boss period? Does anyone believe that it would've killed any possible success of the 1980 album or it's singles? I sure don't. What killed the public on Diana by the 90s is that her last two albums for RCA sucked butt and then she was MIA for a handful of years after marrying and having two children in a very short period of time. When she finally reappeared, her first new Motown album didn't even resonate with her core fan base so of course the general public was less than enthused despite the success of the title single. And from what I've read in this thread, Motown apparently bungled [[once again) the publicity for the FBTP album. None of that makes an artists in her 40s a continued hit maker if someone with a lot of power isn't pushing in her corner.

While Black folks could sometimes be the hardest on Diana, we also were the ones who rocked with her the longest. So even after Mary's book, years after the book, Diana was still able to make it into the top 5 r&b twice [[of course one of those was with Al). And Motown 25 didn't cut into her sales either because a year after that Diana hit big not only with "Swept Away" and "Missing You" but with their parent album also. Mary's book gave the media something to talk about, which gave the folks at home something to talk about. But had Diana been dropping the kind of music that sounded as good and relevant as the junior divas who were hitting big at this time, we'd be talking about this point in her music history a little differently.

The biggest blow from Mary's book was to her relationship with Diana. Diana herself was the biggest blow to her own career.

It certainly did not prevent me from not buying Diana's music. Whether that is true of other people is very much open to debate.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

1) Nothing in Mary Wilson's books caused people to vow "I'll never buy that witch's music ever again!"

2) What killed the public on Diana by the 90s is that her last two albums for RCA sucked.

3) And from what I've read in this thread, Motown apparently bungled [[once again) the publicity for the FBTP album.

4) While Black folks could sometimes be the hardest on Diana, we also were the ones who rocked with her the longest. .

1) Not true, Ran. I know people personally who were totally turned off to Diana after reading Mary's book. Worse yet, I tuned in to a talk-radio station one day [[back in the day) in time to hear the announcer trashing Diana because of that book. [[Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed reading Mary's book, but it never turned me off to the music. Unless they're an ax murderer, I keep the artist separate from the art.) That book did indeed destroy Diana's reputation at the time.

2) The majority of John Q. Public wasn't even aware of Diana's last 2 RCA albums, nor would they have cared.

3) Publicity? They dropped the ball by not releasing the "Force Behind The Power" album when the were supposed to. Diana was out on tour promoting it while the powers that be sat on their duffs, twiddling their thumbs, wondering which single to release from it before releasing the album. People who attended her concerts couldn't run to the store to buy it because there was nothing to buy.

4) I resent that! Some of us white folk have been faithful to Diana [[AND to Motown) since 1964, having bought nearly every note of music she's ever recorded. And we STILL are! While attending her concert 5 years ago, I couldn't help but notice that the majority of the audience was white. Where were the black folks dancing that night? It wasn't with Diana!

[Albator]

1) Not true, Ran. I know people personally who were totally turned off to Diana after reading Mary's book. Worse yet, I tuned in to a talk-radio station one day [[back in the day) in time to hear the announcer trashing Diana because of that book. [[Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed reading Mary's book, but it never turned me off to the music. Unless they're an ax murderer, I keep the artist separate from the art.) That book did indeed destroy Diana's reputation at the time.

They were just waiting for something to express that resentment they harbored for years. The book helped them, and Taraborelli reenforced them.
Those things and Diana own ego-trip echoed the idea of a temperamental, dangerous, agressive diva. Just listen the fun documentary about the taping of Diva 2000.
I'v encountered her once, in Paris, I was the only one to recognize her and she was so sweet and happy to see a fan. It's a beautiful moment but we all know she can be very difficult or hard to follow to be more diplomatic.
And also the music wasn't that great, and the age, and the difficulty to be trendy after so many years and albums.

[RanRan79]

1) Not true, Ran. I know people personally who were totally turned off to Diana after reading Mary's book. Worse yet, I tuned in to a talk-radio station one day [[back in the day) in time to hear the announcer trashing Diana because of that book. [[Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed reading Mary's book, but it never turned me off to the music. Unless they're an ax murderer, I keep the artist separate from the art.) That book did indeed destroy Diana's reputation at the time.

2) The majority of John Q. Public wasn't even aware of Diana's last 2 RCA albums, nor would they have cared.

3) Publicity? They dropped the ball by not releasing the "Force Behind The Power" album when the were supposed to. Diana was out on tour promoting it while the powers that be sat on their duffs, twiddling their thumbs, wondering which single to release from it before releasing the album. People who attended her concerts couldn't run to the store to buy it because there was nothing to buy.

4) I resent that! Some of us white folk have been faithful to Diana [[AND to Motown) since 1964, having bought nearly every note of music she's ever recorded. And we STILL are! While attending her concert 5 years ago, I couldn't help but notice that the majority of the audience was white. Where were the black folks dancing that night? It wasn't with Diana!

I can't speak to your experiences Gary. If you heard people say that they would never support Diana Ross' music in the wake of Dreamgirl, I have to take your word for it. But I've never heard it. Even as the people around me might talk about Diana's attitude or lament the way "poor Flo" was treated, they were still turning the radio up when Ross cuts came on. I grew up in Chicagoland and "Workin Overtime" got much airplay and I knew Black people who owned the single. I suspect that if anyone truly decided that they would not purchase anything Diana Ross again because of Mary's allegations, they were typically not people who would have, or had ever, purchased her music before. So for me they become a moot point.

The general public knew about those last two Diana RCA albums because [[a) they were on the shelves, [[b) in the case of Eaten Alive, the album contained a semi hit and two music videos that got airplay, and [[c) in the case of RHRAB the album had a whole television special tie in. The fact was people knew about the albums and they left them on the shelves because they sucked. Take opined adjectives out of the equation like "sucked" and you're still left with the fact that the last two RCA albums flopped. Two back to back flop albums, a 3 or 4 year absence from the public eye and then return with two more flop albums? Mary's book couldn't do anything against that. Mary could've written a book about how great and wonderful Diana Ross is and the public still wouldn't have run out and bought WO or FBTB.

Yes, I said "publicity". In my mind if you don't release the damn album, that kind of screws with the publicity, does it not? What's the use in Ross touring and singing the songs on television if there's no product for people to buy? And again, Mary's book had nothing to do with that.

I can not tell you what not to resent. That's your business. If you were offended, that was not my intention, but I apologize for nothing. While I made a generalizing statement regarding the Black community, my statement was not made to suggest that all white people discontinued their support any more than my statement sought to suggest that all Black people supported her. But my original opinion still stands. When white radio passed on Diana, Black radio continued their support [[until it was painfully obvious that there was a ton of better material by other artists worth listening to). When the white fans stopped buying her music, the Black ones were still picking it up [[until it became painfully obvious that there was a ton of better material by other artists worth paying for). And when the larger white entertainment industry all but ignored Ross when passing out superlative adjectives and awards, the Black entertainment industry was still bestowing these upon her, even when she wasn't always available [[or wouldn't always make herself available) to accept these in person. Your concert anecdote is not surprising. In the case of many of our legends, and even current hitmaking Black entertainers, the audience is often overwhelmingly white. Mary Wilson's book has nothing do with any of it.

[Albator]

The music industry was never generous to Berry Gordy and Diana Ross, even on their heydays, so there are no reason they were going to be when she wasn't successful.
But the industry isn't the general public and Diana had hits on AC stations and Dancefloor.

But Ranran79 analysis are valid to me.

[Ollie9]

I don't really want to get into the topic as to which colour of fan proved the most loyal, but how does all this account for the fact that Diana still sold well throughout Europe, particularly in the UK. It was only America that turned it's back.

[Albator]

I don't really want to get into the topic as to which colour of fan proved the most loyal, but how does all this account for the fact that Diana still sold well throughout Europe, particularly in the UK. It was only America that turned it's back.

And Japan!
If she continued to do well, especially compared to Dionne Warwick, Gladys Knight or even Donna and Aretha, it's nothing compared to Tina Turner or the new girls from the 80's and 90's. On the other hand Tina was non consistant before her comeback

[RanRan79]

I don't really want to get into the topic as to which colour of fan proved the most loyal, but how does all this account for the fact that Diana still sold well throughout Europe, particularly in the UK. It was only America that turned it's back.

My guess is that Europeans never read Dreamgirl: My Life As a Supreme.

I brought race into the conversation only to point out that the Black community can be among Diana's biggest detractors and yet at the same time her biggest champions. I in no way meant to slight any race of people or make the topic of Diana's "irrelevancy" all about race.

I must add that even when Diana Ross was the reigning queen of entertainment, most of her singles and all of her albums did better r&b than pop. For the record I didn't just pull my observations about Diana Ross and race out of my ass, although it is important to note that I am speaking specifically about the United States and not elsewhere in the world.

[Bluebrock]

My guess is that Europeans never read Dreamgirl: My Life As a Supreme.

I brought race into the conversation only to point out that the Black community can be among Diana's biggest detractors and yet at the same time her biggest champions. I in no way meant to slight any race of people or make the topic of Diana's "irrelevancy" all about race.

I must add that even when Diana Ross was the reigning queen of entertainment, most of her singles and all of her albums did better r&b than pop. For the record I didn't just pull my observations about Diana Ross and race out of my ass, although it is important to note that I am speaking specifically about the United States and not elsewhere in the world.

You may have a point. Dreamgirls had nowhere near the impact in the UK and Europe that it had in the States. I remember seeing dozens of copies in a publishers clearance store within months of it being published. That is when i purchased it for next to nothing.

[Ollie9]

My guess is that Europeans never read Dreamgirl: My Life As a Supreme.

I brought race into the conversation only to point out that the Black community can be among Diana's biggest detractors and yet at the same time her biggest champions. I in no way meant to slight any race of people or make the topic of Diana's "irrelevancy" all about race.

I must add that even when Diana Ross was the reigning queen of entertainment, most of her singles and all of her albums did better r&b than pop. For the record I didn't just pull my observations about Diana Ross and race out of my ass, although it is important to note that I am speaking specifically about the United States and not elsewhere in the world.

I agree with Bluebrock in that the M.W book did not make quite the huge splash here in the UK that it did in the USA. American ideology tends to compartmentlize it's artists. Your either a sinner or a saint, old or young, hot or cold.... Far less so in Europe.

In my own personal experience, the black community in general have proved far more critical of Diana's career, believing she sold out years ago. I think the point that Gary made about Diana's concerts being attended predominantly by white fans has always been true.

Glad to hear your observations were not pulled out of that particular orifice dear lol. I do understand though the point you were making about black radio.

[florence]

In the UK over the years any of Diana's concerts I was at was a mix of all ages and races.

[florence]

It could have been worse, many fans tend to forget that apart from the Julio Igesias duet Missing You was suffering the same fate as all of Diana's singles since Muscles in 1982 - it had peaked somewhere around the 40's and was falling down the chart when Diana performed it on The American Music Awards in early 1985 introducing it a wide audience and causing the record to do a yo-yo and give her her last [[to date!) big US hit.

[Albator]

It could have been worse, many fans tend to forget that apart from the Julio Igesias duet Missing You was suffering the same fate as all of Diana's singles since Muscles in 1982 - it had peaked somewhere around the 40's and was falling down the chart when Diana performed it on The American Music Awards in early 1985 introducing it a wide audience and causing the record to do a yo-yo and give her her last [[to date!) big US hit.

she performed Missing You???

[reese]

she performed Missing You???

She didn't perform it. She did a tribute to recently deceased stars Count Basie, Ernest Tubb, and Jackie Wilson. Then she talked about Marvin and they showed some of the MISSING YOU video.

Note: Even though the record wasn't a big hit on pop radio at the time, it was already in the Top 10 on the soul chart, which was noted by Lionel Richie when he introduced her.

[Albator]

She didn't perform it. She did a tribute to recently deceased stars Count Basie, Ernest Tubb, and Jackie Wilson. Then she talked about Marvin and they showed some of the MISSING YOU video.

Note: Even though the record wasn't a big hit on pop radio at the time, it was already in the Top 10 on the soul chart, which was noted by Lionel Richie when he introduced her.

In Billboard, the single is #5 in a pure sales charts that lasted a few issues. It’s 10 on Billboard hot 100 so we see how cautious one has to be when it comes to charts.

[RanRan79]

I agree with Bluebrock in that the M.W book did not make quite the huge splash here in the UK that it did in the USA. American ideology tends to compartmentlize it's artists. Your either a sinner or a saint, old or young, hot or cold.... Far less so in Europe.

Yes! That's a perfect way of describing the fickleness of the public here. I've often heard it said that Europe is far less uptight than the US is. It should come as no surprise that there would be a difference in the way artists are appreciated between the two.

In my own personal experience, the black community in general have proved far more critical of Diana's career, believing she sold out years ago. I think the point that Gary made about Diana's concerts being attended predominantly by white fans has always been true.

More critical, which was my point, but never forgetting her or pushing her off her pedestal [[except the ones who get into pointless debates about "soulful"). The white community, apparently aside from her core fans, left Ross behind long before we ever did. I was shocked when Ross was proclaimed Entertainer of the Century [[was it Rolling Stone?). She usually didn't rate such accolades from "mainstream" media at that point.

Glad to hear your observations were not pulled out of that particular orifice dear lol. I do understand though the point you were making about black radio.

You can't be any more glad than I my friend. That would be a very painful extraction of information, for sure.

[reese]

I was shocked when Ross was proclaimed Entertainer of the Century [[was it Rolling Stone?). She usually didn't rate such accolades from "mainstream" media at that point.

It was Billboard who proclaimed her the Female Entertainer of the Century in 1976. They gave her the award when she co-hosted the second Rock Awards.

[Ollie9]

Yes! That's a perfect way of describing the fickleness of the public here. I've often heard it said that Europe is far less uptight than the US is. It should come as no surprise that there would be a difference in the way artists are appreciated between the two.

More critical, which was my point, but never forgetting her or pushing her off her pedestal [[except the ones who get into pointless debates about "soulful"). The white community, apparently aside from her core fans, left Ross behind long before we ever did. I was shocked when Ross was proclaimed Entertainer of the Century [[was it Rolling Stone?). She usually didn't rate such accolades from "mainstream" media at that point.

But but but, if as you say the white community left Diana behind long ago, how does this account for her concert audiences [[and i have attended a lot of Ross concerts over the years) being predominantly white?. It does not add up.

[florence]

Not forgetting that in 1993 the Guinness Book of World Records declared her the most successful female recording artist of all time.

[RanRan79]

It was Billboard who proclaimed her the Female Entertainer of the Century in 1976. They gave her the award when she co-hosted the second Rock Awards.

Ah okay, that's what it was. I wonder why I thought it was from around 2000? Thanks for the correction Reese.

[RanRan79]

But but but, if as you say the white community left Diana behind long ago, how does this account for her concert audiences [[and i have attended a lot of Ross concerts over the years) being predominantly white?. It does not add up.

Diana Ross is a mega legend. People will go see her show no matter what. But when it came to purchasing the music, playing the music, and honoring Diana Ross after the hits stopped coming in, that was us with few exceptions. The legends will always get people in the seats. I saw a concert Gladys Knight did where her audience was overwhelmingly white and I don't think anyone would question Gladys' place in the hearts of the Black community [[even though I've kicked her to the curb). When white radio stopped playing Diana's songs, Black radio still spun them. When Diana couldn't pay to get her videos on MTV or VH1, BET was showing them. Our award shows were honoring her when she was pretty much forgotten by the "big" shows, except for being an odd presenter now and again. My statement about race was not meant to suggest that Diana Ross no longer had white fans. She had a ton of them. What she seemed to lack was love by the general white public, not her diehards, the latter of which I suspect make up the bulk of most Diana Ross shows anyway.

Just my observations and opinions.