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  1. #51
    after the Hollywood Bowl, was it really a reprieve for Flo or just needing to fulfill contractual obligations for performances? if flo had returned with the "mary mindset," would they have kept her in the group once Cindy was relieved for her contract with the Bluebelles?

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    In Randy's latest book on Diana, he also tells a similar story about Berry's sister. Was is Ester? or Gwen?
    Gwen was the one who called.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Maybe she shouldn't have. But he didn't have to act the way that he did either. Gordy was the boss. Diana didn't have the power to kick Flo out. That was Gordy's doing. Also remember this all took place more than 50 years ago. These people are elderly. Nobody but a handful of Soulful Detroiters even seem to care. All the Supremes are over it.
    Also here is what people seem to forget: the Supremes became world famous only a couple of years after high school. Diana and Mary were child prodigies and Flo barely an adult, been together since 15-16 years old.

    They put all their hopes on Berry Gordy to make them stars. Gordy used and manipulated at least two of them while the other had her skepticism about him. Florence was only 24 when she was fired.

    Honestly none of us can be a fly on the wall to what was going on but show business is a cutthroat world and if you show any vulnerability, they take advantage of that. Florence went through so much after being raped, her drive for stardom almost overwhelmed her especially after the group stopped being so close.

    Mary and her cousin concluded that Flo didn't do the right thing either. It would've helped if Gordy and Diana weren't so success driven but no one knew how to deal with Florence's problems.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Also here is what people seem to forget: the Supremes became world famous only a couple of years after high school. Diana and Mary were child prodigies and Flo barely an adult, been together since 15-16 years old.

    They put all their hopes on Berry Gordy to make them stars. Gordy used and manipulated at least two of them while the other had her skepticism about him. Florence was only 24 when she was fired.

    Honestly none of us can be a fly on the wall to what was going on but show business is a cutthroat world and if you show any vulnerability, they take advantage of that. Florence went through so much after being raped, her drive for stardom almost overwhelmed her especially after the group stopped being so close.

    Mary and her cousin concluded that Flo didn't do the right thing either. It would've helped if Gordy and Diana weren't so success driven but no one knew how to deal with Florence's problems.
    Ahh they could have been nicer. They acted like a bunch of assholes towards that woman. Calling her fat, drunk, lazy and not really being sick when she was sick, not letting her sing any leads,threatening to expose the fact that she had not graduated from high school to the public and on and on, etc.
    Last edited by marv2; 06-29-2019 at 07:36 PM.

  5. #55
    Yeah I dont think Flo wanted to be in the group. I feel at some point she was hoping maybe things would work out but by '67, she seemed to just be going through the motions.

    Shelley Berger has said that after the New Orleans fiasco, he saw Diana reading a note from Flo saying she didn't want to be in the group anymore. I don't think Flo wanted to quit out of loyalty, almost like how Diana didn't want to go solo too soon.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Albator View Post
    Women, misogyny??? Brian Jones was left out of the Stones because the others couldn't stand his erratic behavior and there are countless of others exemple in the rock world.
    Brian Jones has nothing to do with Berry Gordy. I am talking about Gordy's known negative attitude where his female artists were concerned. He clearly had a different way of dealing with the males vs the females. The Stones were not on Motown and thus irrelevant to this conversation.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Amen and exactly! Like all of us, Diana Ross is going to pay for what she did now............or later!
    Good thing you don't have a heaven or hell to put her in, right? We all have to reap what we sow. That's a fact. Why is Diana's reaping and sewing more important to you than your own reaping and sewing? I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this. Love me some Diana Ross, but I am waaaaaayyyyyyy more concerned with my own life than I am hers. That's also a fact. What say you?

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Ahh they could have been nicer. They acted like a bunch of assholes towards that woman. Calling her fat, drunk, lazy and not really being sick when she was sick, not letting her sing any leads,threatening to expose the fact that she had not graduated from high school to the public and on and on, etc.
    Let's not act like the Supremes and Motown are the only act where childish antics happened now... they just happened to be the most famous act where this occurred. I'm not making excuses for them, they WERE rude and mean, but this wasn't that unique. I've read biographies of other groups who treated their mates ten times worse and yet they still reunite every now and then!

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    after the Hollywood Bowl, was it really a reprieve for Flo or just needing to fulfill contractual obligations for performances? if flo had returned with the "mary mindset," would they have kept her in the group once Cindy was relieved for her contract with the Bluebelles?
    I think that the reprieve ultimately was because Motown needed time to deal with Cindy's contract to the Bluebelles and Atlantic Records. I believe that had Flo come back with a better attitude and willingness to go along to get along, Cindy would've never been a Supreme. For all of Gordy's nastiness, his dream wasn't that Florence is fired. He was smart enough- I think- to recognize her contributions to the group and thus would not want to lose that if he could avoid it. So Flo in a better mood would've been good business for the Supremes. Gordy would be happy with that. Cindy would've either ended up a replacement Vandella or Marvelette, or she would've been a casualty in the Motown machine's Supreme focus, because Patti and the girls definitely weren't letting Cindy come back.

    But Gordy had a pretty good read on people and I think he recognized that at some point Flo would slip up, especially if he decided to target her hot button issues. So Cindy was brought on board as a stand in, to be called upon shortly.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Let's not act like the Supremes and Motown are the only act where childish antics happened now... they just happened to be the most famous act where this occurred. I'm not making excuses for them, they WERE rude and mean, but this wasn't that unique. I've read biographies of other groups who treated their mates ten times worse and yet they still reunite every now and then!
    Right? Anyone want to talk about how despicable Martha treated "her" Vandellas? She's lucky she got her sister in there to back her butt up.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Ahh they could have been nicer. They acted like a bunch of assholes towards that woman. Calling her fat, drunk, lazy and not really being sick when she was sick, not letting her sing any leads,threatening to expose the fact that she had not graduated from high school to the public and on and on, etc.
    On this we agree. Some of what has been described is absolutely crazy, and she's supposed to ignore that? I get that there was a better way to handle things, but I really think people are missing what Florence was really dealing with. The least of her Motown problems was not singing a lead. What was going on between her and Gordy was deeper than that.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    Right? Anyone want to talk about how despicable Martha treated "her" Vandellas? She's lucky she got her sister in there to back her butt up.
    Betty Kelly in particular. This is why I can't take people seriously when they act like the Supremes were the only ones who had to deal with nastiness in their own ranks. Far from it!

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    Right? Anyone want to talk about how despicable Martha treated "her" Vandellas? She's lucky she got her sister in there to back her butt up.
    No! This thread is about Florence Ballard's last day in the Supremes. Thank you

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I think that the reprieve ultimately was because Motown needed time to deal with Cindy's contract to the Bluebelles and Atlantic Records. I believe that had Flo come back with a better attitude and willingness to go along to get along, Cindy would've never been a Supreme. For all of Gordy's nastiness, his dream wasn't that Florence is fired. He was smart enough- I think- to recognize her contributions to the group and thus would not want to lose that if he could avoid it. So Flo in a better mood would've been good business for the Supremes. Gordy would be happy with that. Cindy would've either ended up a replacement Vandella or Marvelette, or she would've been a casualty in the Motown machine's Supreme focus, because Patti and the girls definitely weren't letting Cindy come back.

    But Gordy had a pretty good read on people and I think he recognized that at some point Flo would slip up, especially if he decided to target her hot button issues. So Cindy was brought on board as a stand in, to be called upon shortly.
    Speaking of Cindy, the Bluebelles (Patti, Nona and Sarah) were PISSED with a capital P when Cindy called them later about going to the Supremes. I can imagine they each called Cindy everything but a child of God (NONA in particular). Berry's decision led to a double whammy of two top girl groups whose early friendships broke apart because of a cruel world called show business.

    For all of the talk about what Mary "should have done", she DID try to help Florence to get her to fight for her place to stay in the group but I guess Florence's demons got the best of her. Every time I see their Unsung and it gets to the part of the breakup, I always go "get strong, Flo! Prove Berry wrong!"

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    On this we agree. Some of what has been described is absolutely crazy, and she's supposed to ignore that? I get that there was a better way to handle things, but I really think people are missing what Florence was really dealing with. The least of her Motown problems was not singing a lead. What was going on between her and Gordy was deeper than that.
    It was done intentionally! The issue was NOT about handling things differently. That was the bullshit line they put out there starting in the late 70s in regards to the Florence Ballard story. Into the 80s, they tried to put the brunt of the blame of Florence because of how she had "handled" things. The truth is they slowly tortured that girl. Even tried to make her think she was losing her mind or that she had gotten as big as a house. I dare anyone to show me a picture of Florence Ballard fat as one of the Supremes!

  16. #66
    You see it right here with some of these guys trying to change the subject to the Vandellas or couldn't Mary Wilson have done something to make Florence's situation with Berry and Diane better, etc,etc, utter bullshit to ad nauseum!

  17. #67
    Well obviously Florence Glenda Ballard Chapman was never fat (though Benjaminson claimed she died mildly obese; think it was said she weighed 190 lbs at the time of her death but she was like 5'7, I think? I need to re-read the book on Archive), but this was the '60s, if someone in the industry weighed over 120 lbs, you were considered fat. They said this to Judy Garland decades before Flo and to Karen Carpenter (well they called her chubby but still) a decade after her. The industry is hard on women in general. What men can get away with, women can't. So telling a curvaceous woman she was fat will definitely sting especially if you're as headstrong as Florence.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    You see it right here with some of these guys trying to change the subject to the Vandellas or couldn't Mary Wilson have done something to make Florence's situation with Berry and Diane better, etc,etc, utter bullshit to ad nauseum!
    It was just a comparison, Marvin...

  19. #69


    This was how Florence looked in late 1975, just a few months before her death and probably right after she left rehab at Henry Ford Hospital. Not fat at all but in her era, she would've been seen as such, which is pretty f*cked up.

  20. #70
    Marv you turned the thread into another Diana-bash fest, nothing to do with Florence's last day as a Supreme. Practice what you preach my man.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Gwen being the one to tell Florence to stay? I believe that was the case too.
    Thanks for the reply.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    Marv you turned the thread into another Diana-bash fest, nothing to do with Florence's last day as a Supreme. Practice what you preach my man.
    Why is telling the truth about a situation viewed as bashing? Why do you all always excuse her bad behavior towards others. That has been her problem, no one puts her in check.

  23. #73
    If Flo was taking anti depressants that might explain some weight gain depending on the drug she was prescribed.

  24. #74
    Hold up floy it was turning into a bash fest even before marv mentioned Diana but u do agree with you too

  25. #75
    The way Flo was treated has everything to do with her demise in the group. Behavior from others negatively affected her well-being.

  26. #76
    I don’t think she was fat but she definitely gained weight from going from a size 8 in 1965 to a size 12 in 1967. It was said before that Cindy could wear Flo’s dresses the question is could Flo wear her dresses. It’s been said that they couldn’t wear certain gowns because Flo’s couldn’t get into hers also when Flo put on Cindy’s tuxedo, it was too small for her.
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Well obviously Florence Glenda Ballard Chapman was never fat (though Benjaminson claimed she died mildly obese; think it was said she weighed 190 lbs at the time of her death but she was like 5'7, I think? I need to re-read the book on Archive), but this was the '60s, if someone in the industry weighed over 120 lbs, you were considered fat. They said this to Judy Garland decades before Flo and to Karen Carpenter (well they called her chubby but still) a decade after her. The industry is hard on women in general. What men can get away with, women can't. So telling a curvaceous woman she was fat will definitely sting especially if you're as headstrong as Florence.

  27. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    If Flo was taking anti depressants that might explain some weight gain depending on the drug she was prescribed.
    If you've ever worked at a job that was excessively stressful and you knew most of the stress was being made up by those that wanted you gone, you will have some understanding of what Florence Ballard went through. When she was finally out, it felt like a relief to her. That is how she described it. She didn't even want to have anything to do with Motown or the people there after she was fired.

  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    I don’t think she was fat but she definitely gained weight from going from a size 8 in 1965 to a size 12 in 1967. It was said before that Cindy could wear Flo’s dresses the question is could Flo wear her dresses. It’s been said that they couldn’t wear certain gowns because Flo’s couldn’t get into hers also when Flo put on Cindy’s tuxedo, it was too small for her.
    Then later on, it looked to me that Cindy was just as curvy and voluptuous as Flo. She did not look skinny or malnourished like the lead singer.

  29. #79

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Why thank you Luke! or should I say "Me" if you believe this Albator person LOL!!!!
    Clearly, this Marv2, is not a sociopath having such a friend like Luke, following like a shadow, registered the same year and month. Always symbiotic, always defensive, admirative. If it's not one in two, it's two in one... or more

  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Florence was older than Mary. It was not Mary smearing Florence and ratting on her to Gordy! That was ALL Diana Ross!
    From all the conclusions you draw, it seems that Mary Wilson has no personality, no existence of her own, like your friend Luke.
    If Flo was being harassed by Berry and Diana, it's still surprising that Mary didn't intervene. If the original team meant that much, she could have said, "If Flo goes away, I don't go on stage".
    But she didn't say that, she preferred to see the band survive with another Supreme than to see it sink into chaos. She preferred to remain a Supreme, with the benefits, protected by Diana Ross leading force, and probably praying that it would last as long as possible.

    And if you think Flo was harassed, what about Diana? in this book you read as the Bible, Berry is tougher to Diana than any other Supremes or artist.
    B. Gordy : "She is going to be a star, and a star should endure this kind of pressure"
    Last edited by Albator; 06-30-2019 at 02:05 AM.

  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    after the Hollywood Bowl, was it really a reprieve for Flo or just needing to fulfill contractual obligations for performances? if flo had returned with the "mary mindset," would they have kept her in the group once Cindy was relieved for her contract with the Bluebelles?
    I don't think Cindy was announced when she did fill in/join the group during their July run. Berry took a big gamble on losing Flo because he wasn't sure how the public would accept it. The fire must have been pretty hot for him to say okay that's it. However, if Cindy was rejected I think he would have either found a way to get her back or have Diana go solo.

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Why is telling the truth about a situation viewed as bashing? Why do you all always excuse her bad behavior towards others. That has been her problem, no one puts her in check.
    Ross has been put in check many times. Leaving Motown and watching her career decline. Her husband leaving her for a younger woman.

    She put YOU in check by throwing you out of her concert because you snapped photos when an announcement had been made not to do so while she was performing.

  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Ross has been put in check many times. Leaving Motown and watching her career decline. Her husband leaving her for a younger woman.

    She put YOU in check by throwing you out of her concert because you snapped photos when an announcement had been made not to do so while she was performing.
    Diana Ross has never had me thrown out of anything or anywhere. Thinking about it, I wished she could. I'd have a good chunk of whatever money she has left.......
    Last edited by marv2; 06-30-2019 at 12:17 PM.

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Diana Ross has never had me thrown out of anything or anywhere. Thinking about it, I wished she could. I'd have a good chunk of whatever money she has left.......
    It happened in Denver. That was the night you became a Mary Wilson fan. That was in a post you sent me on AOL in November 1999, that I eventually sent to Mary's rep. I think I still have it on a flash. I'll look and post it.

  35. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    It happened in Denver. That was the night you became a Mary Wilson fan. That was in a post you sent me on AOL in November 1999, that I eventually sent to Mary's rep. I think I still have it on a flash. I'll look and post it.
    Marv I hope he does. Check your email. There are legal issues.

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Albator View Post
    Clearly, this Marv2, is not a sociopath having such a friend like Luke, following like a shadow, registered the same year and month. Always symbiotic, always defensive, admirative. If it's not one in two, it's two in one... or more
    Wow thats real smart of you and your right. Not only did Luke and Marv joined on the same month and year but on the exact same day. Yep. Many of us here have thought they are the same person and you just proved it Albator.

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    Wow thats real smart of you and your right. Not only did Luke and Marv joined on the same month and year but on the exact same day. Yep. Many of us here have thought they are the same person and you just proved it Albator.
    If you google Diana Ross sociopath, you'll find a discussion on a forum a long time ago, where he pursue her and label her "A c"" of epic proportion and sociopath" .

    He is one in two, or two in one

    As Luke, he loves Marv2 very much

    Name:  Capture d’écran 2019-06-30 à 20.22.52.jpg
Views: 143
Size:  8.9 KB

    So we have, a paranoia, schizophrenia and narcissism ... Not a just a sociopath but a psychopath of epic proportion

  38. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    It happened in Denver. That was the night you became a Mary Wilson fan. That was in a post you sent me on AOL in November 1999, that I eventually sent to Mary's rep. I think I still have it on a flash. I'll look and post it.
    It would be a great service to this forum if you would do so.

  39. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    Wow thats real smart of you and your right. Not only did Luke and Marv joined on the same month and year but on the exact same day. Yep. Many of us here have thought they are the same person and you just proved it Albator.
    O. M. G. TOO funny. Or sad, whichever you prefer.

  40. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by detmotownguy View Post
    Marv I hope he does. Check your email. There are legal issues.
    This dude is crazy. Diana never threw me out of anywhere in Denver. He knows I went to school in Denver from when he use to pretend to just be a Motown fan way back in the AOL days. I have always loved Mary Wilson since I first heard of the Supremes. If he continues with his lies, I will blow him out of the waters with his own truths! Final warning! I am not playing.
    Last edited by marv2; 06-30-2019 at 03:43 PM.

  41. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    This dude is crazy. Diana threw me out anywhere in Denver. He knows I went to school in Denver from when he use to pretend to just be a Motown fan way back in the AOL day. I have always loved Mary Wilson since I first heard of the Supremes. If he continues with his lies, I will blow him out of the waters with his own truths! Final warning! I am not playing.
    You've threatened me with that many times Marv and I still say GO FOR IT

  42. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    You've threatened me with that many times Marv and I still say GO FOR IT
    I will. I have to make a few calls tomorrow. Going for it here!

  43. #93
    Heres my advice to you BayouMotownMan.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  44. #94
    Of course I won't Roberta.

  45. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I will. I have to make a few calls tomorrow. Going for it here!
    Whos name you gonna make the calls under yours or Lukes? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

  46. #96
    All of you are acting like a bunch of 13 year old jr high school girls Grow up

  47. #97
    You guys having fun yet?

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    All of you are acting like a bunch of 13 year old jr high school girls Grow up
    Its kinda silly and real disrespectful to be passing around blame over Flo Ballards exit from the Supremes 52 years ago when NONE of US was there in ANY of the dressing rooms or meetings or phone calls. Let the lady RIP and celebrate her legacy on this day which is her earthly birthday.

  49. #99
    And yet you and others engage him knowing full well what he will say instead of ignoring him. And yet I find it interesting that you don’t have a problem calling out Marv but becoming quiet when Mary gets disrespected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta75 View Post
    Its kinda silly and real disrespectful to be passing around blame over Flo Ballards exit from the Supremes 52 years ago when NONE of US was there in ANY of the dressing rooms or meetings or phone calls. Let the lady RIP and celebrate her legacy on this day which is her earthly birthday.

  50. #100
    I dont disrespect Mary Wilson but things he says about Diana Ross are just real disgusting and sexist and I actually have defended Mary Wilson on this here forum.

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