Why Did The Supremes Slip In 1968 ?

[Boogiedown]

For the year 1967 , The Supremes were #5 in Top Singles, #9 in Top Albums , and they were #6 and #4 in R&B Singles and R&B Albums.

For the year 1968, their annual rankings dropped to , #76 in Top Singles, #18 in Top Albums, and they were not visible at all in the R&B Top Fifty.

This data is from the book, THE WORLD OF SOUL, by Arnold Shaw which was written in the midst of the unfolding DRATS story and published in 1970.

What do you think would account for this shift ? In his book, Arnold Shaw provides three reasons he thinks are "worthy of consideration". Here are two of them:

1) Their hit cycle, short-lived with most artists, was over.

2) Hollland-Dozier-Holland, who were at odds for a time with the Motown management, had written themselves out or were unable to function effectively in the controversial atmosphere.

and reason 3) ..... well, before revealing what Shaw suggested back then , ... what would you say could've been reason #3?
________

Note : The premise here is based on the claims of Arnold Shaw and the data he has provided , of which he doesn't cite the source.

[IMissFlo93]

2 words:NO FLO.

[gman]

were they not still the top Motown group in his survey? I wonder how did Marvin, and the Tempts and Tops do?

[marv2]

There were too many "Supremes" records [[Diane and the Andantes), too many releases in 1968 that were really not that special.

[mistercarter2u]

I think the group suffered when they ceased to be a real group; when Mary and Flo and/or Cindy stopped appearing on the records and were relegated to second class. Something just changed... Of course, few people knew at that time that the backgrounds were not actually The Supremes, so that in itself did not contribute to the downfall. Losing HDH was a big hit, though in my humble opinion, the music was still good. I personally loved "Some Things You Never Get Used To," but perhaps it was a little light and airy and out of touch with the times, just as "Forever Came Today" may have been a little too heavy and too complicated. The balance was just off for awhile there....

[jobucats]

My opinion: No more HDH

[sup_fan]

i think most of this can be boiled down to Berry's focus shifting from having #1 records to broader exposure for Diana across entertainment world. You had her on Tarzan, then the TCB special was being prepared, they were endorsing Humphrey for President, the Funny Girl sound track. The group was also climbing up into bigger and better showrooms - like the Waldorf.

The whole point of the group's name change was to get the public acquainted with her star name. and once they did the name change, then it was time to start laying the groundwork for showing off her talents and capabilities.

Because of all of this, there just wasn't the razor sharp focus on the group's single releases. Plus the whole HDH debacle resulted in their personal production team leaving. HDH were gone by the very beginning of 68 [[i think i read/heard that their final sessions were on I'm In A Different World for the Four Tops). So they had to completely shift gears to try and find the right music

On top of this, the music industry had rapidly changed. The summer of love was 1967 and so more genres of music were quickly becoming popular - acid rock, folk, more hard core r&b, etc. People's tastes change and musical acts need to adapt. the Sups struggled with that

[midnightman]

Sup_Fan said all I was gonna say about why they slipped in 1968. The times had definitely changed. Also, don't forget them being at MLK's funeral and posting messages of black pride and racial unity at the same time. The Supremes were trying to hang on to that #1 spot but it's hard when one woman was becoming a revolution on her own [[Aretha).

[TheMotownManiac]

Music was changing, style was changing and HDH devastated Motown. The tops suffered much worse with no hits until Still Waters. Martha never saw the top ten again. 95% of the slip was HDH. All they did was create a historic sound that changed the industry and it evaporated. How many hits would the Beatles have had if they suddenly had their records written and produced by Whiterspoon, Dean and S. Moy?

i don’t think Flo leaving had any effect on singles sales and there’s zero evidence to suggest The andantes were a factor when they were on so much product that was huge like Merry Christmas, A Go Go, Symphony, Love Child, Someday. Flo wasn’t on YCHL and neither was on the Stop 45. Plus, Mary and Cindy were augmented by others on all top 20 post-Ross product. No one gave a damn, they just wanted a good record.

ThevSupremes lost their street cred in 68 when they went total glam, but that was a choice they knew would change their demo.

[Jimi LaLumia]

holland/Dozier/Holland.. Gordy was very foolish..those productions that they brought to The honey cone, freda payne etc would have been chart topping Supremes records period..very foolish move Mr. Gordy

[Boogiedown]

very good input!

Arnold Shaw lists the absence of HDH as reason #2 for their slump. We're looking for reason #3.

[marybrewster]

No HDH and an oversaturation of LP's competing with one another.

[TheMotownManiac]

His greed belies his “we’re a family” rhetoric. He screwed over everyone - Ross the most, I’m guessing - but she got a lot also. Gladys was the smart one who knew they were being screwed, but he made her a Star also so there is some give and take. But his refusal to negotiate with HDH baffles me. It cost him untold millions - potentially - in lost revenue on just DR&TS, Tops, Martha alone. Had HDH remained, they would gave totally eased the transition for solo Ross and JMC.

‘’Times changed, styles changed, but losing HDH was like the meteor that killed the dinosaurs.

[luke]

I think Gladys made Gladys a Star. As far as the Supremes....no Flo! Andantes watered down their distinctive sound and I even stopped buying all their records ...HDH left. Straightforward. Many fans interested in the Supremes and not just Diana Ross.

[kpitt1204]

IMHO, to me it seems like music changed in general around 1968. I think as the world saw one too many of our leaders assasinated, it made the world a grittier place to live in. Music then shifted also. Folks got older and more serious also.

[marv2]

I think Gladys made Gladys a Star. As far as the Supremes....no Flo! Andantes watered down their distinctive sound and I even stopped buying all their records ...HDH left. Straightforward. Many fans interested in the Supremes and not just Diana Ross.

I agree on all points. Gladys Knight had the talent and polish to be a big star no matter what label she was on. When Florence left and the background harmonies with she and Mary were gone, the records sounded different and not in a good way. They became bland, colorless sounding. The group dynamic ended when Florence left and did not come back until Jean Terrell joined.

[midnightman]

The Supremes did lose a good chunk of their black audience in 1968.

[BigAl]

DRATS killed the Supremes.

I have no idea what Shaw’s #3 hypothesis is.

The act lost momentum with that huge triple-whammy: HDH’s departure, Diane getting separate billing concomitantly with Florence’s ouster, and the further downplaying of the roles of other group members. The latter two items incensed many fans [[myself included). Add the extreme over-the-top glam maneuver and the shift of focus from a pop act to an “adult contemporary” premise also put off much of the group’s longtime fan base. To my sensibilities, they morphed into a glorified lounge act.

The life span of many, if not most, pop groups is only a few years at best anyway, and the act just ran out of steam, becoming a parody of itself. The foray into social consciousness with “Love Child” to restore some relevance was fortunate but pitiably short-lived, and they sank back into mediocrity until Bristol managed to pull “Someday” out of his a**, depriving Diane of that number as her solo debut so the group could go out on a hit, but by that time it was understood across the board that this was the end for DRATS anyway. For two years, so many record-buying fans finally gave up on them. JMC saved the act to an extent but it was never the same.

The popularity of the act ran its course as it would have regardless, but that drop in popularity was sped-up with all those factors at play.

[JohnnyB]

DRATS killed the Supremes.

I have no idea what Shaw’s #3 hypothesis is.

The act lost momentum with that huge triple-whammy: HDH’s departure, Diane getting separate billing concomitantly with Florence’s ouster, and the further downplaying of the roles of other group members. The latter two items incensed many fans [[myself included). Add the extreme over-the-top glam maneuver and the shift of focus from a pop act to an “adult contemporary” premise also put off much of the group’s longtime fan base. To my sensibilities, they morphed into a glorified lounge act.

The life span of many, if not most, pop groups is only a few years at best anyway, and the act just ran out of steam, becoming a parody of itself. The foray into social consciousness with “Love Child” to restore some relevance was fortunate but pitiably short-lived, and they sank back into mediocrity until Bristol managed to pull “Someday” out of his a**, depriving Diane of that number as her solo debut so the group could go out on a hit, but by that time it was understood across the board that this was the end for DRATS anyway. For two years, so many record-buying fans finally gave up on them. JMC saved the act to an extent but it was never the same.

The popularity of the act ran its course as it would have regardless, but that drop in popularity was sped-up with all those factors at play.

As I read through this thread I have a question that I’ve asked myself many times. I was in diapers in 1967 so I have no memories of this time. Between In And Out Of Love and Love Child there were two singles that didn’t reach the top 10. Love Child was huge, followed by the success of Join The Temptations, I’m Gonna Make You Love Me and TCB. This was followed by I’m Livin’ In Shame which, according to most, road the coattails of the last hits into the top 10.

This brings me to my question: Did fans and the public really believe the Supremes were over at the start of 1968 or is this how history has been rewritten over the years? I can imagine Motown was nervous—we all know the stories of BG gathering writers together to create what would become Love Child. But for the general public, there were two unsuccessful singles in the spring and summer while the Greatest Hits LP was still selling huge, then the hits returned in the fall of 1968. If anything, 1969 should be singled out as the end as I’m Livin’ In Shame was the final hit before Someday.

I’m not trying to start an argument, I’m just curious. What was public perception? Did people really believe in 1968 DRATS were over? Was Love Child really perceived as a “comeback” or the next single?

[Jimi LaLumia]

the group was never regarded as over,and having lived through the era, Flo's ouster [[which we were told at the time was a chosen solo career on another label) wasn't an issue until the following decade, and eventually Mary's book.. The Supremes as an entity remained on top in most minds from 1964 until 1972/73 , whenever Jean left.. Anyone who says elsewise just has an axe to grind..there was no group except The Beatles where every single was a huge hit..although the 60's and early 70's Supremes came very close to that spot

[Jimi LaLumia]

even the 'almost hits' like "Forever Came Today", "No Matter What Sign" and "The Composer" did get airplay on the biggest top 40 station in America , New York's AM 77WABC, so to the man in the street, the perception was that the group was still doing their thing.. the average person doesn't follow every blip on the radar as the tiny population of hard core fans [[like me) do..that notion seems to get lost on some folks..

[BigAl]

the group was never regarded as over,and having lived through the era, Flo's ouster [[which we were told at the time was a chosen solo career on another label) wasn't an issue until the following decade, and eventually Mary's book.. The Supremes as an entity remained on top in most minds from 1964 until 1972/73 , whenever Jean left.. Anyone who says elsewise just has an axe to grind..there was no group except The Beatles where every single was a huge hit..although the 60's and early 70's Supremes came very close to that spot

I was speaking primarily from my own point of view, and from that of many fellow fans. [[I was sixteen at the time.) For us, the magic ended abruptly when DRATS supplanted The Supremes at the same time that the HDH/Flo-firing/Diane-as-star shakeup occurred. To the general public, however, the group was still bigger-than-big, in concert and on TV if not on the charts consistently, but, to so many of us, it just wasn’t The Supremes anymore by a long shot, and, as I mentioned, they became a parody in the eyes of so many. The days of their being “America’s sweethearts” was most definitely over. Youthful exuberance was replaced by exaggerated glamour, resulting in a kind of “rococo” version of the original group — lots of glitz and “curlicues,” but lacking in real substance.

[midnightman]

They may not have been over in 1968 but their constant stream of top ten hits had obviously started to dry up around this time.

[daviddh]

i agree with most everything stated above, I think Berrys desire for Diana to be solo just blinded him. the Funny Girl lp was a prime example. I think BG destroyed the group. but really, it wasn't just one thing. it was everything.
the music suffered. BG always seemed to be on point. then he wasn't. they regained some miles with Love Child and Make You Love Me but then lost some with Composer. just below par. flooding the market with material doesn't make up for some of the junk that came out. but I am glad the group was reborn with Jean

[marv2]

DRATS killed the Supremes.

I have no idea what Shaw’s #3 hypothesis is.

The act lost momentum with that huge triple-whammy: HDH’s departure, Diane getting separate billing concomitantly with Florence’s ouster, and the further downplaying of the roles of other group members. The latter two items incensed many fans [[myself included).

This was all there is! Totally accurate and on the money. I could not listen to another whole album of Diana Ross singing ALL of the leads.

[marv2]

They may not have been over in 1968 but their constant stream of top ten hits had obviously started to dry up around this time.

They had become apart of the "Establishment". Although, I was still just a kid they just didn't seem that cool anymore or their music sounded like it was for older people.

[marv2]

As I read through this thread I have a question that I’ve asked myself many times. I was in diapers in 1967 so I have no memories of this time. Between In And Out Of Love and Love Child there were two singles that didn’t reach the top 10. Love Child was huge, followed by the success of Join The Temptations, I’m Gonna Make You Love Me and TCB. This was followed by I’m Livin’ In Shame which, according to most, road the coattails of the last hits into the top 10.

This brings me to my question: Did fans and the public really believe the Supremes were over at the start of 1968 or is this how history has been rewritten over the years? I can imagine Motown was nervous—we all know the stories of BG gathering writers together to create what would become Love Child. But for the general public, there were two unsuccessful singles in the spring and summer while the Greatest Hits LP was still selling huge, then the hits returned in the fall of 1968. If anything, 1969 should be singled out as the end as I’m Livin’ In Shame was the final hit before Someday.

I’m not trying to start an argument, I’m just curious. What was public perception? Did people really believe in 1968 DRATS were over? Was Love Child really perceived as a “comeback” or the next single?

I will put it to you this way. By 1968 Diana Ross and the Supremes began losing popularity with "Young America". They just did not seem that hip anymore. For some in the Black community that had went too far in "crossing over".

[luke]

I wonder what would have happened had Diana left in 1967 and Flo stayed. I think they would soared even higher.

[PeaceNHarmony]

The public was more than ready for Diana Ross to go solo!

[BigAl]

In midsummer 1967 I was reading Earl Wilson’s Show Time column in the local paper, and spotted a one-line item which read, “Have The Supremes had a cast change, with Cindy Birdsong replacing Florence Ballard?” That was the only mention I ever heard or saw ahead of the final revelation a month or so later when they appeared on The Hollywood Palace. Who the hell was this Cindy Birdsong, and could that possibly be her real name? In the meantime, “Reflections” hit the stands and I rushed out to buy it. To my dismay, there, in silver on blue was, “Diana Ross and the Supremes” on the label. I was heartsick but not altogether surprised. You’d have had to be blind and deaf not to have seen or heard that one coming for a couple of years already. [[I had to wonder if perhaps they might have replaced Mary as well! By that time I wouldn’t have put anything past Diane and Berry.) When DRATS made that initial TV appearance on The Hollywood Palace, I hoped against hope that the rumors weren’t true, but, there in front of me was the awful proof. I shed a tear and could see that everything about the act had been changed — everything so over the top — the elaborate wigs, ridiculous layers of thick makeup, skin-tight shiny gowns. It was all just so slick and contrived, and it wasn’t The Supremes as I knew and loved them. As I’ve mentioned before, that’s the precise moment when the magic ended, abruptly, for me. A review of one of their gigs in Florida [[Eden Roc, Deauville or Fontainebleau, I don’t remember now) said something regarding Mary and Cindy. The reviewer said, “Theirs at times is a nice vocal blending, when you can actually hear them behind Miss Ross. Otherwise, she could have just hired a couple of musical owls. [[Ouch!) Next time she’ll be solo.” Even if it didn’t happen the very next time they appeared there, it happened shortly thereafter. They say kids accept change much better than adults do, but you couldn’t have proven that by me. I moped around for quite a while.

[marv2]

I wonder what would have happened had Diana left in 1967 and Flo stayed. I think they would soared even higher.

I know they would have been more soulful.

[Oxfordfrankford513]

I remember reading a few articles leading up to Flo's leaving, one said she missed a recent engagement and was subbed by Cindy and then there was another where Flo denied rumors she was leaving the group. A couple of weeks later I saw them performing in A.C. with Cindy. The show and chemistry just didn't flow as well as it did when I saw them a year before with Flo.

[midnightman]

To answer JohnnyB's question, since I was born way after the Supremes had disbanded in 1977 [[if seven years is way after lol), I can only explain that in those days, if you weren't consistent with hits, people considered you a has-been the following year. And if you manage after two or three years to have a hit, people hailed it as a "comeback". The Supremes were so massive with hit singles between Where Did Our Love Go in 1964 to Reflections in 1967 that when they started to have a drought following Flo's and HDH's exits in 1967 through 1968, not to mention the Supremes losing the black audience to the rise of Aretha Franklin and Gladys Knight & The Pips [[not to mention the almost-radical sounds of the Temptations and Marvin Gaye that had flipped Motown to a new edgier direction) - and even a big chunk of their younger white audience to psychedelic rock, they had reached that crossroads where the feeling was "you're only as good as your last hit" and the Supremes found themselves fighting to get back relevance that I felt they had lost by this point.

They wouldn't have a top ten hit until Love Child and I'm Gonna Make You Love Me at the END of the year where as opposed to that year, they had more than 4 or 5 top ten/number one hits. To show the difference, I'll run down the numbers of top ten/#1 hits they had each year between 1964-69:

1964 [[3 - WDOLG, BL and CSAM)
1965 [[3 - SITNOL, BIMA and IHAS)
1966 [[4 - MWIEWY, LILAIIMH, YCHL and YKMHO)
1967 [[4 - LIHANYG, TH, R and IAOOOL)
1968 [[2 - LC and IGMYLM w/Tempts)
1969 [[2 - LIS and SWBT)

18 top ten hits in less than five years. Five consecutive number ones between 1964-65 and four consecutive number ones between 1966-67.

The last bit shows how powerful the original Supremes were especially with HDH at the helm. A perfect match.

By 1968, with Flo and HDH gone, Diana singing mainly with the Andantes at this late point, oversaturation of the market [[which also played a huge part in their downfall with Diana), songs that didn't gel with the public, a backlash against their original fan base, all of these factors contributed in them slowing down by 1968/69. Diana couldn't go far with them even if she wanted to. She had to go solo so the Supremes could start anew in the '70s, which they did but that didn't last long as we all know.

[Boogiedown]

This is exactly the kind of conversation I was looking for by presenting this as a topic.

As time passes I think narratives sometimes take on a life of their own and perceptions can change. That's why when Arnold Shaw listed the three reasons he felt the Supremes were slipping , and he was offering his critique in real 1960s time , I thought it'd be interesting too see how his conclusions compare to how we look at the same events now some fifty years later.

--- Shaw's reason #3 coming up !!

[Jimi LaLumia]

such nonsense.. I was an active fan back then and knew others, and no one ever said they were slipping..now, The Four Tops/Vandellas/Marvelettes etc..during this time frame..THAT was SLIPPING!!..Supremes continued to rule the roost..spare us the fake news and theories..do you think Sullivan/ Hollywood Palace etc would have kept booking them if they weren't top of their game? give it a rest

[lucky2012]

^ Have to agree. I was a young teen and neither I nor my friend or classmates thought the Supremes were slipping. I just expected them to hit the next time, and Love Child validated that. I realize now that we got Love Child because of Forever and Somethings. Lol.
[[In 1969, I remember a DJ remarking that "we keep hearing rumors of Diana Ross leaving, but we keep getting new Supremes records!")

[Sotosound]

In terms of hit singles, "Love Child" was very relevant in 1968 and it was a far cry from anything that HDH had delivered or were about to deliver on Hot Wax or Invictus.

The impression that I've picked up is that HDH were already running out of hits before they left Motown. Therefore, DRATS might not have continued to have strings of number 1 hits anyway had they remained.

Is it possible that all that happened in reality is that time passed and the world changed and that something similar would have happened whether or not HDH or Flo had left? After all, their original audience was also growing up and changing and wanting different things.

Everything Must Change.....

[midnightman]

such nonsense.. I was an active fan back then and knew others, and no one ever said they were slipping..now, The Four Tops/Vandellas/Marvelettes etc..during this time frame..THAT was SLIPPING!!..Supremes continued to rule the roost..spare us the fake news and theories..do you think Sullivan/ Hollywood Palace etc would have kept booking them if they weren't top of their game? give it a rest

^ Uh Jimi, that's because the promotion on the other groups were DISMAL! Let's not act like the Supremes were having a great year in 1968. LOL I get defending the girls but no.

The Supremes were well established they could be on those shows at that time. Maybe "slipping" was a wrong year to use but for a supergroup like the Supremes were at this time, for them to have a series of albums that didn't chart too hot or have just a couple of big hits as opposed to others that were not doing so hot. It was clear 1968 was messy at least charts wise for them.

[midnightman]

In terms of hit singles, "Love Child" was very relevant in 1968 and it was a far cry from anything that HDH had delivered or were about to deliver on Hot Wax or Invictus.

The impression that I've picked up is that HDH were already running out of hits before they left Motown. Therefore, DRATS might not have continued to have strings of number 1 hits anyway had they remained.

Is it possible that all that happened in reality is that time passed and the world changed and that something similar would have happened whether or not HDH or Flo had left? After all, their original audience was also growing up and changing and wanting different things.

Everything Must Change.....

Who knows if HDH was falling off? I think the last song they worked on before they abruptly left Motown was Reflections or In and Out of Love [[it was one of them) so it's hard to say on that respect. Many biographies concluded Motown struggled for a minute with HDH leaving. There was only so much Smokey, Ashford & Simpson and Norman could do.

[marv2]

^ Uh Jimi, that's because the promotion on the other groups were DISMAL! Let's not act like the Supremes were having a great year in 1968. LOL I get defending the girls but no.

The Supremes were well established they could be on those shows at that time. Maybe "slipping" was a wrong year to use but for a supergroup like the Supremes were at this time, for them to have a series of albums that didn't chart too hot or have just a couple of big hits as opposed to others that were not doing so hot. It was clear 1968 was messy at least charts wise for them.

The Supremes were basically over exposed in terms of number of releases each year and television appearances. For a time it seemed like they had a new album out every 3-4 months and a single release every 2 months. Same as the Temptations. There was a time where The Supremes could be found on television on some show at least once a week. If things had continued on like they were in 1968, the Supremes could have ended up being game show regulars! That is just how establishment they had become by 1968.

[marv2]

Who knows if HDH was falling off? I think the last song they worked on before they abruptly left Motown was Reflections or In and Out of Love [[it was one of them) so it's hard to say on that respect. Many biographies concluded Motown struggled for a minute with HDH leaving. There was only so much Smokey, Ashford & Simpson and Norman could do.

Motown needed HDH as much as they needed the rest of them. They benefitted from the diverse writers pool they had that had the ability to get hits on several of their acts at the same time.

[franjoy56]

Motown needed HDH as much as they needed the rest of them. They benefitted from the diverse writers pool they had that had the ability to get hits on several of their acts at the same time.

The supremes changing to diana ross and the supremes lost their hit cycle with forever came today and some things. But t act became a vegas headliner. Most of t fans stopped buyi ng the records. Funny girl. And talk of f the town both released in 68. were t lowest charting albums of their career along w g.i.t in 69 along w 2 more flop singles that year Someday restored them back t the top but by this time we were waiting f jean to step in t restore t supremes as a group dynamic and f ross to be gone

[franjoy56]

[QUOTE=franjoy56;511473]The supremes changing to diana ross and the supremes lost their hit cycle with forever came today and some things. But t act became a vegas headliner. Most of t fans stopped buyi ng the records. Funny girl. And talk of f the town both released in 68. were among t lowest charting albums of their career along w g.i.t in 69 and w 2 more flop singles that year Someday restored them back t the top but by this time we were waiting f jean to step in t restore t supremes as a group dynamic and f ross to be gone. Her stardom created by gordys one track mindset destroyed t act we knew as the supremes[ yes thank goodness they had a chance shine in t 70s w jean terrell f however brief/QUOTE]

[franjoy56]

[QUOTE=franjoy56;511475]

[marv2]

The supremes changing to diana ross and the supremes lost their hit cycle with forever came today and some things. But t act became a vegas headliner. Most of t fans stopped buyi ng the records. Funny girl. And talk of f the town both released in 68. were t lowest charting albums of their career along w g.i.t in 69 along w 2 more flop singles that year Someday restored them back t the top but by this time we were waiting f jean to step in t restore t supremes as a group dynamic and f ross to be gone

Exactly Fran and very accurate. I do remember not being able to enjoy the group again until Jean Terrell joined. It had gotten to the point where I didn't care if they were on TV anymore. They were doing shows like the Bing Crosby and the Bob Hope Special. Those were shows my grandparents watched. LOL!

[Boogiedown]

The supremes changing to diana ross and the supremes lost their hit cycle with forever came today and some things. But t act became a vegas headliner. Most of t fans stopped buyi ng the records. Funny girl. And talk of f the town both released in 68. were t lowest charting albums of their career along w g.i.t in 69 along w 2 more flop singles that year Someday restored them back t the top but by this time we were waiting f jean to step in t restore t supremes as a group dynamic and f ross to be gone

You presented that well. I had no idea when I used the word "slipping" anyone would find it objectionable , but I do get the point. "Slipping" does not mean they ceased to exist, or weren't still plowing ahead, or weren't still a top act filling rooms in Vegas and appearing on prime time TV.

Arnold Shaw's book is not about The Supremes , nor about Motown . It's bigger, encompassing all of R&B's history right up until the books publishing in early 1970. The Motown section is all of fifteen or so pages and The Supremes part is only a few of those. So it's concise .

The actual wording of Shaw's observation of The Supremes' standing in 1968 was not about them overall , but about their record selling status:

"From 1967 to 1968, the record appeal of the group suffered a serious setback."

That wording maybe makes the premise here more palatable.

Sotosound:


.... Is it possible that all that happened in reality is that time passed and the world changed and that something similar would have happened whether or not HDH or Flo had left? After all, their original audience was also growing up and changing and wanting different things.

Everything Must Change.....

I think you're on to something.

[midnightman]

Exactly. Their status was still high in 1968 but as far as songs on the chart, no doubt they were struggling as much as the other Motown acts. And that's why I don't like it when people separate the Supremes from everyone else. They ended up suffering like all of Motown did. Berry was just lucky to find people who knew how to write songs and sell them to the masses. Love Child was something they had to do to get back on top of the charts.