Dream producers for the Supremes

[sup_fan]

The pic of Di, Mary and Quincy made me think about what might have been. Had Mary not left the group.

I think it would have been exciting of course for S and S to do some production work. And frankly I was super satisfied w MS&S so I would have expected another Holland produced lp or two

But who else might be dream Supreme producers? Given Quincy’s work and sound, do you think he’d work well with the MSS lineup? What if it was a different 70s lineup?

What other producers?

[RanRan79]

I have to preface my reply to your question by mentioning that I think Mary leaving the group when she did was a good idea. Personally I think she should have left when Cindy left the second time. While Mary wasn't groomed the way Diana was, to me it's just like when Diana left: it was time because Diana had outgrown the group. I feel Mary really had gone as far as she could in the group thing. It was time to go it alone.

Now had Mary rejoined Scherrie and Cindy in the early 80s as it is supposedly have been considered, I think Q producing their reunion project might have produced some quality stuff. But honestly I don't really hear in my head a good Quincy Jones/Supremes collaboration in the 70s.

MSS- I think it may have been interesting to hear what Richard Perry might have done with the ladies. I particularly think that both Mary and Scherrie would've really shined on his productions. And maybe taking the group out of disco mode might have allowed them to go over a bit better.

MJL- Allen Toussaint. Such a shame that Jean didn't want to ask him. I can understand some possible reasons why, but still a shame because Toussaint may have been a shot in the arm for the group, especially when you consider what he would give Labelle. I also have to be honest and admit that I still love the idea of pairing Stevie with the group. And of course there's my ultimate dream of the Supremes and Thom Bell. Had they left Motown in 73/74 I think the new group may have hit some real highs if they hooked up with him.

JMC- Its hard to argue against Frank Wilson. But I would've loved it if Marvin Gaye had been allowed to do some stuff with the ladies in those first couple of years. What if he had produced New Ways as a concept album? How about Laura Nyro producing the Gonna Take a Miracle album on JMC instead of herself and Labelle? I would've loved to hear Jean on some of that stuff.

Lastly, I realize the question was about the 70s Supremes, but I must add that I do wonder what Q would have done on the Supremes in the 60s.

[RanRan79]

Sup fan, you abandon the thread?

[sup_fan]

well i loved your reply Ran - but no one else seemed to care I guess the endless bashing of D and M after their pic with Quincy came up was more important to everyone lol

Now i have to say i disagree with you about whether or not Mary should have left the group. I think she would have found more continuous and consistent work had the group stayed together. mostly because i think her voice works best in a group environment since hers is just really not a pop voice. my wish would have been for MSC to continue with both a mix of group and individual initiatives. mary's presence would also have helped anchor the group. to me, the FLOS are missing something. At least when it was JSL, they were all former supremes. but with the rotating position 3, it always seemed a bit off. now keep in mind, i feel S and L have every right to promote themselves as former members. But having an original Sup in the mix would have really helped give it more importance i think

now as for producers, i really like your choices above. i also think with the Jean era that something about women could have worked well. i would have LOVED Carole King to have worked with either Jean lineup. And i wonder if something along the lines of a feminist position would have worked. nothing too radical. but they'd enjoyed beautiful songs and success with Frank and their "peace/love" theme. i think they could have segued easily into a positive feminist position.

[RanRan79]

Well you know music talk will never be as popular as "the feud" in this place.

Yes, Carole King would've been an interesting producer for the Jean lineups. I think feminism would've been a natural topic for the ladies for obvious reasons. The problem would've been in whether or not the public would want to hear that from the Supremes. I reckon it would've been worth a try though. Maybe put a single together and see how well it was received before going into a full project.

What do you think about Norman Whitfield and the Jean lineups?

[TomatoTom123]

What do you think about Norman Whitfield and the Jean lineups?

Well Ran, because it didn't happen, I can't quite imagine it happening, but it would have been very interesting. I don't think Norman worked with many [[any?) girl groups [[all-girl groups) after The Marvelettes and Velvelettes in the 60s.

Norman could be pretty experimental though and I don't think Motown would have wanted that for The Supremes. Perhaps more along the lines of his work with Rose Royce in the mid/late 70s?

[sup_fan]

and i don't think the girls would go full-on extremism with their approach to feminism. it would be a milder version of things and topics. Frankly it could have been a bit like Honey Cone. Nathan Jones did a good job of it.

And the feminism might have been more about working with female producers and presenting a female point of view on things.

I think Norman was a bit too heavy for the girls. I wonder if a more rock sound might have worked

What about Todd Rundgren - he did much of Meatloaf's work

Or Alan Parson - did lots with Pink Floyd, The Hollies.

[lucky2012]

The album Touch, I think, pointed the way towards singer-songwriters, with songs which were departures from the previous Motown albums in style, content & attitude. E.g., Time & Love by Laura Nyro [[a respected female singer-songwriter), the independent sound and attitude of Nathan Jones, even the tone & style of Here Comes The Sunrise, Love [[It Came To Me This Time) and This is The Story. I love this album.

Floy Joy was a nice, welcome 180 degree turn for the next album. Too bad the Jimmy Webb album was such a mess for the return to the singer-songwriter genre. I would have preferred an album by Thom Bell, as suggested once by RanRan.

[sup_fan]

now there's an interesting and rather obvious idea - what about Laura Nyro doing the supremes? sure Gordy ditched them for Diana and went with A&S. but what about just shifting her to the sups?

[TheMotownManiac]

The Supremes needed hits - the public was not enamored with Jean or her voice as evidenced by the lackluster album sales and relatively week showings on the charts for two pretty great records up the ladder and stoned love and, for my money, River deep. The last two would’ve generated much bigger album sales if people wanted to hear her voice more. For that reason, they needed stronger material which Motown just didn’t seem to have for anybody - except the J5. People on this site cling to Floyd joy and Nathan Jones as if they were the holy Grail, and they were fine records, but they weren’t the smash hit that that group desperately desperately desperately needed. Thom Bell, Gamble/Huff, even HDH is where I would have gone. Barry white. Smokey? Let’s face it, he was at his creative nadir he went 10 years between producing A hit record for anybody except for Floyd joy. Even the corporation could’ve done wonders with them. I think bless you would’ve been a bigger hit… Much bigger hit on Jmc definitely a top-five record… I think diana would’ve taken a top-five or number one - Martha Reeves and the Vandellas were never going to get radio play again because their name was too old. I think bless you as one of the great records in Motown history… That’s how much I love it…… But it was a waste on Martha, sadly - I know Deke preferred to work with Diana and MJ and Martha - I don’t know his feelings about JMC.

[RanRan79]

Well Ran, because it didn't happen, I can't quite imagine it happening, but it would have been very interesting. I don't think Norman worked with many [[any?) girl groups [[all-girl groups) after The Marvelettes and Velvelettes in the 60s.

Norman could be pretty experimental though and I don't think Motown would have wanted that for The Supremes. Perhaps more along the lines of his work with Rose Royce in the mid/late 70s?

He did work with the 60s Supremes a few times. I don't think Norman and Jean would've been a good fit, I was just throwing it out there for thoughts. However, I do think MSC and especially MSS might have been good fits with Norman.

[RanRan79]

and i don't think the girls would go full-on extremism with their approach to feminism. it would be a milder version of things and topics. Frankly it could have been a bit like Honey Cone. Nathan Jones did a good job of it.

And the feminism might have been more about working with female producers and presenting a female point of view on things.

I think Norman was a bit too heavy for the girls. I wonder if a more rock sound might have worked

What about Todd Rundgren - he did much of Meatloaf's work

Or Alan Parson - did lots with Pink Floyd, The Hollies.

Todd Rundgren is definitely an interesting idea.

What about Barry White? I think Jean's voice would've been perfect for his soulful symphonies.

I wonder if Jean, Mary or Cindy had any songwriting and producing abilities? I wonder if a Supremes Produced and Arranged By the Supremes would've worked.

[RanRan79]

The album Touch, I think, pointed the way towards singer-songwriters, with songs which were departures from the previous Motown albums in style, content & attitude. E.g., Time & Love by Laura Nyro [[a respected female singer-songwriter), the independent sound and attitude of Nathan Jones, even the tone & style of Here Comes The Sunrise, Love [[It Came To Me This Time) and This is The Story. I love this album.

Floy Joy was a nice, welcome 180 degree turn for the next album. Too bad the Jimmy Webb album was such a mess for the return to the singer-songwriter genre. I would have preferred an album by Thom Bell, as suggested once by RanRan.

This is true Lucky and probably explains why I prefer Touch and Floy Joy over Right On and New Ways. There's definitely a progression of sophistication.

[sup_fan]

The Supremes needed hits - the public was not enamored with Jean or her voice as evidenced by the lackluster album sales and relatively week showings on the charts for two pretty great records up the ladder and stoned love and, for my money, River deep. The last two would’ve generated much bigger album sales if people wanted to hear her voice more. For that reason, they needed stronger material which Motown just didn’t seem to have for anybody - except the J5. People on this site cling to Floyd joy and Nathan Jones as if they were the holy Grail, and they were fine records, but they weren’t the smash hit that that group desperately desperately desperately needed. Thom Bell, Gamble/Huff, even HDH is where I would have gone. Barry white. Smokey? Let’s face it, he was at his creative nadir he went 10 years between producing A hit record for anybody except for Floyd joy. Even the corporation could’ve done wonders with them. I think bless you would’ve been a bigger hit… Much bigger hit on Jmc definitely a top-five record… I think diana would’ve taken a top-five or number one - Martha Reeves and the Vandellas were never going to get radio play again because their name was too old. I think bless you as one of the great records in Motown history… That’s how much I love it…… But it was a waste on Martha, sadly - I know Deke preferred to work with Diana and MJ and Martha - I don’t know his feelings about JMC.

Corporation - interesting idea. i think that J5 sound didn't meld as well with gutsier more soulful vocals like Martha. and potentially Jean too. But interesting

I do think that the issue with their earlier hits/songs wasn't around quality. i think pretty much all of the Frank material is excellent. not always the best single choice - Touch is too weak. and i think Nathan needed a little more "something" after the bridge to make the song explode at the end.

I think more of fault with the 70 and early 71 was lack of thoughtful career management. the duets were a dumb idea and flooded the market. the handling of the creative direction and photos for NWBLS was poor. the girls should have also transitioned a bit out of the sequins and Vegas approach. yes right when Jean came on they needed to sort of bridge soul and sequins. but then as they established themselves they could have continued to push into new areas. but they were stuck in an old faded image

Post nathan - then what? i have to say the majority of the Promises Kept material is lackluster.

[TheMotownManiac]

When I first heard Up The Ladder, I thought I had died and gone to heaven…… And like just about every other supreme‘s fan I know, I still 50 years later Cleave it to my bosom. That being said, I did not know how well it would fare with the outside world. Frankly, following a platinum single like some day, it’s one week in the top 10 is a disappointment. In fact, it follows the exact same pattern of the groups previous platinum single love child… When I’m living in shame, peaked at number 10 for one week. Clearly up the ladder is a much better record, but not in the eyes of the general public. Stoned love, clearly a great record, couldn’t manage to get into the top five and it’s album, regardless of packaging, did extremely disappointing business. So, with that tells me it is, as much as supreme‘s fans love these records The general public did not embrace them enough to support better album sales and more importantly, live ticket sales. They needed a homerun, they needed sugar sugar, seasons in the sun, Lady marmalade, band of gold and Frank Nelson couldn’t bring it to them… And clearly he tried. And let’s face it, not much longer than a year after the Jackson 5 hit, they were having trouble getting material also 1971 was a terrible year for Motown and because I think bless you as such a great record, I really do wish it had gone to JMC as I think they would’ve hit big with it. And personally, I don’t care If they put out records that I liked or not, as long as they hit because I was not in anyway shape or form prepared to say goodbye to the Supremes and occasionally you have to put up with a dud - even if it does hit big. I don’t know the answer, but, clearly the public wasn’t buying what was offered - and there were no hits on Touch other than Nathan. Had Jean enunciate it enough so that people could understand the lyrics it would’ve done better, sales wise it went top 10 on cashbox so it was not getting enough air play to match how it was selling.

[gman]

I think Jean would have been an interesting pair up with Clarence Paul or Norman Whitfield....Paul would have been a nice harder traditional RnB throwback, and Whitfield could have definitely come up with something completely out of the box...I guess the closest to psych soul we came was Nathan Jones and Now The Bitter.

[TomatoTom123]

I would have loved to see what Thom Bell, Gamble & Huff and Barry White would have done with The Supremes. As for Motown, Willie Hutch and The Corporation are a few others that come to mind.

[RanRan79]

I think Jean would have been an interesting pair up with Clarence Paul or Norman Whitfield....Paul would have been a nice harder traditional RnB throwback, and Whitfield could have definitely come up with something completely out of the box...I guess the closest to psych soul we came was Nathan Jones and Now The Bitter.

I don't know about Clarence Paul, but good point about Norman. He was very innovative and it's easy to get caught up in trying to imagine what he did for the Tempts and Undisputed Truth fitting the Supremes. But I figure he was imaginative enough that he could've definitely come up with something out of the box but very much Supremes. And I never thought about the shades of psychedelic soul in "Nathan" and "Bitter". Very good point.

[RanRan79]

I would have loved to see what Thom Bell, Gamble & Huff and Barry White would have done with The Supremes. As for Motown, Willie Hutch and The Corporation are a few others that come to mind.

Willie Hutch! I didn't think about him. Yes, that would've been a very interesting matchup. MSC doing "Love Power"? Intriguing.

What about Johnny Bristol? Obviously he was a great pairing with Diana for "Someday" and "These Things", but what about if he worked with JMC on material similar to what he did for Junior Walker, like "Do You See My Love for You Growing" and "Take Me Girl"?

[TomatoTom123]

Oooh, "Love Power", what a great idea! I feel that Willie could have gotten the right balance between soul and disco for the MSC/MSS ladies. Perhaps blaxploitation style soul and funk in the Jean years?

Johnny Bristol gets a YES from me RanRan, I definitely would have liked to see what he would do with The 70s Supremes. Smooth smooth soul.