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    50 Years of Livin' In Shame!

    During this time of year 50 years ago [[gulp!) we were hearing this on the radio daily. Released on January 5, 1969 and playing into the Spring of that year......Diana Ross & The Supremes with "I'm Livin' In Shame"!

    Last edited by marv2; 02-22-2019 at 06:04 AM.

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    Great performance of the song. The first time i heard the lyrics "mama passed away while making home made jam" i had to play the song again to make sure i had not misheard. Unusual to say the least lol.

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    A great record and performance by Diana Ross and the Andantes. The intro alone is just classic.

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    The record sucks. Dumb song, dumb everything. This performance though is kind of nice. Diana sounds great. Mary and Cindy sound good, but clearly they lack something in comparison to the Andantes performance on the actual record. I've said it before and I'll say it again: visually Cindy took the group up a notch. Not because she was any prettier than Flo [[beauty is in the eye of the beholder) but because she was so much smoother and a much better dancer, which was perfect for all of the more intricate choreography that DRATS would end up doing. But vocally? The group missed Florence. Flo and Mary could've handled the background for that song. Cindy and Mary is another story. The only way Cindy and Mary could've done as worthy of a job as the Andantes is if Diana joined them in the background. Flo and Mary didn't really need augmentation. Cindy and Mary did.

    Btw, one of Diana's worst looks. Mary on the other hand is sexy as hell here. That's a gorgeous woman.

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    One of my all-time favorite Supremes records! I love it and always have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercarter2u View Post
    One of my all-time favorite Supremes records! I love it and always have.
    I remember my Dad's cousin loved it too. Played over and over for a while.

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    Mary and Cindy look great here....Diana needs a bit more hair if she's going for the Afro...not as much as she's had in later years...but more...as a 10 yr. old I loved Shame and No Matter What Sign...loved I'll Try Something New...The Weight and Some Things took a long time to grow on me. But I like them today. The Weight was quite a departure...Diana sounds like she should, handling and trying something new. Paul and Eddie nail their parts too...of course years later Shames lyrics seem over the top on the drama...but it was early 1969...and possibly reality for some.

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    For me, the lyrics killed the song. I mean, how hokey can you possibly get? When I first heard the song, I jokingly said that the writers must have recently seen Imitation of Life. Well, decades later I read an interview with Pam Sawyer and she said just that!
    But please..couldn't they have come up with something better? I mean, "Mom was cookin' bread?" You bake bread...duh. And "Mama passed away while makin' homemade jam?" That just insulted my intelligence all around. The song would have fared much better with an entirely different plot-theme and lyrics.

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    I love this song. It's what I like to call the forgotten hit. The track and melody were just fine. I think the storyline worked, but it just needed brand new lyrics. Pam Sawyer posted a video of a lady signing the song to new lyrics Pam wrote a while ago, but they weren't all that different from the original song. She did take out that silly jam line.

    I think we can all agree that wig Diana wore worked for the "Love Child" thing but not for the glamour stuff. It makes her silly when you have them wearing these heavily beaded/sequin gowns and Mary & Cindy are wearing these elaborate wigs to match the glamour and you have Diana with that short afro wig. It's one of those "one of these things is not like the other" moments. I'm pretty sure I've heard several people call it the "meatball wig."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    I love this song. It's what I like to call the forgotten hit. The track and melody were just fine. I think the storyline worked, but it just needed brand new lyrics. Pam Sawyer posted a video of a lady signing the song to new lyrics Pam wrote a while ago, but they weren't all that different from the original song. She did take out that silly jam line.

    I think we can all agree that wig Diana wore worked for the "Love Child" thing but not for the glamour stuff. It makes her silly when you have them wearing these heavily beaded/sequin gowns and Mary & Cindy are wearing these elaborate wigs to match the glamour and you have Diana with that short afro wig. It's one of those "one of these things is not like the other" moments. I'm pretty sure I've heard several people call it the "meatball wig."
    All three ladies look lovely, but times being what they were I actually think Mary's Marlo Thomas-IS-That Girl flip wig & Cindy's Diahann Carol-as-Julia wig are the more out-dated. The Afro goes much better with the contempo pant-suits which I love and look great on all three. Ironically a year and a half later Mary would be rallying for Supremes-in-Afro wigs for the cover of NWBLS, so I guess she was inspired by Diana's look.

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    ^^^ I agree. At that time, Diana was the one who was “fashionable”. It was the time of black pride. “Say it loud, I’m black and I’m proud”. Mary and Cindy looked dated still wearing white girl hair [[no offense intended).

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    BUT ... back to the record itself ... it is for me one of the many 'how did they do it' Motown recordings. There's just 'something' about the bounce of the instrumental, which sounds briefly like it could be a happy song, that after a few seconds and with the voice intro vocalise instead hints at something darker which is then confirmed by the Andante's abrupt 'AAHHH' followed by Diana's masterful lead vocal. The recording of all the parts is just so immediate and perfect, as is the final mastering of the record. The quite full instrumentation could have bogged down under less talented guidance. It's a truly haunting listening experience all these years later and I think major thanks are due to the producers-arrangers-techs-instrumentalists. But that's pretty much always the case at Motown!

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    ^^^ I agree. At that time, Diana was the one who was “fashionable”. It was the time of black pride. “Say it loud, I’m black and I’m proud”. Mary and Cindy looked dated still wearing white girl hair [[no offense intended).
    Diana Ross looks like she doesn't even belong on the same stage as those two lovelies. As good as Mary and Cindy look, Freda Payne or Judy Pace should have been up there with them!

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    Would anyone prefer the line: "Came the telegram, mama passed away slicing a joint of ham."?

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    Cindy and Mary sound great......though they all look like they’d rather be singing something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    Would anyone prefer the line: "Came the telegram, mama passed away slicing a joint of ham."?
    "a joint of ham"? LOL!!!!! Ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Cindy and Mary sound great......though they all look like they’d rather be singing something else.
    They do sound great, but now just like then when I saw this on television, they look so bored.

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    "Mama died while smoking a homemade bong.
    Mama, Mama I sure need that.
    Mama Mama, I sure need that.
    Cause I have to stand here with these two stiffs
    Mama I sure need that."

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    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    Would anyone prefer the line: "Came the telegram, mama passed away slicing a joint of ham."?
    How about, “Came the telegram, mama passed away reaching out her hand.”? The clear implication would’ve been that she was reaching out for her estranged daughter. The homemade jam part sounds messy and, well, dumb. Talk about “reaching”! The lyrics to ILIS needed a LOT of work, IMO, but I’d bet that there was very little time to get a follow-up to “Love Child” written, recorded, and released to continue to ride that monster wave. It just pales in comparison to the impact of the subject matter of LC. Short of an anti-drugs-themed record [[which, honestly, sounds a little weird coming from DRATS circa early 1969), I’m not sure what topic they could’ve covered in a follow-up that would’ve matched the impact of LC.

    That said, I have come to love the song—although I find I like version 1 that came out on L&F slightly better, after the fact. I just think the lyrics and subject matter were a tad syrupy. Had this not followed “Love Child” and had it not contained similar production values, I don’t think this would’ve been a Top 10 record for DRATS. At best, I think it would’ve stalled between #30-40 on the Top 100 like earlier 1968 and future 1969 DRATS releases that had also missed the target for whatever reasons. Amusing myself, I guess you might say that “Love Child” was “lightning in a bottle” and “I’m Livin’ In Shame” was “a fart in a can.” LOL
    Last edited by danman869; 02-22-2019 at 04:43 PM. Reason: clarity in paragraph 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by danman869 View Post
    How about, “Came the telegram, mama passed away reaching out her hand.”? The clear implication would’ve been that she was reaching out for her estranged daughter. The homemade jam part sounds messy and, well, dumb. Talk about “reaching”! The lyrics to ILIS needed a LOT of work, IMO, but I’d bet that there was very little time to get a follow-up to “Love Child” written, recorded, and released to continue to ride that monster wave. It just pales in comparison to the impact of the subject matter of LC. Short of an anti-drugs-themed record [[which, honestly, sounds a little weird coming from DRATS circa early 1969), I’m not sure what topic they could’ve covered in a follow-up that would’ve matched the impact of LC.

    That said, I have come to love the song—although I find I like version 1 that came out on L&F slightly better, after the fact. I just think the lyrics and subject matter were a tad syrupy. Had this not followed “Love Child” and had it not contained similar production values, I don’t think this would’ve been a Top 10 record for DRATS. At best, I think it would’ve stalled between #30-40 on the Top 100 like earlier 1968 and future 1969 DRATS releases that had also missed the target for whatever reasons. Amusing myself, I guess you might say that “Love Child” was “lightning in a bottle” and “I’m Livin’ In Shame” was “a fart in a can.” LOL
    The first recorded version of the song is by far a better song IMO. The lyrics still suck, but something about the track makes up for it.

    The only real need for a follow up to "Love Child" was just another damn good song. IMO it was unnecessary to chase something with a social message. It's the freakin Supremes. The only reason why "Love Child" was their first HUGE hit in more than a year is because the group hadn't released anything that anyone believed had a chance of topping the charts. The public was still very much interested, they just needed quality product. But if Motown was dead set on following up "Love Child" with something of a social message, my best guess would've been "Keep An Eye". That's a tough cut and I could see it going over well.

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    Really great thought about “Keep An Eye” as a follow-up, RanRan. I wonder if it might’ve needed some musical overdubbing though if released as a single? I feel as though it possibly needed a little fattening.

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    Confused. I thought mama passed away while making homemade jam

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    What about:
    "Came the phone call, mama passed away just this past fall"

    I never was big on this song. I'm surprised it charted as high as it did and I think the only reason it did was because Love Child was a huge hit. The Andantes sound very bland on the record as opposed to Love Child and it probably would have sounded better had Mary and Cindy been mixed in.

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    Never cared for this song. The lyrics are a mess. I wonder if this song would have been better if it was Re-arranged and sung as a country song, sung by a country artist .

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    Quote Originally Posted by danman869 View Post
    Really great thought about “Keep An Eye” as a follow-up, RanRan. I wonder if it might’ve needed some musical overdubbing though if released as a single? I feel as though it possibly needed a little fattening.
    Yeah, it probably could've used a different mix. I find that usually the album tracks that I deem single worthy [[from 60s Motown) usually need an extra this or that before I personally would've allowed the song released. But the basis was there. Motown just needed to focus on it as the LC follow up and see what happened. Sure one can't do too much arguing against "Shame" as the next single since he did become a big hit [[albeit largely forgotten today) but I think there was a bigger hit had they looked for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    What about:
    "Came the phone call, mama passed away just this past fall"
    Much better line Floy.

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    While we could tweak things a bit to erase the stupid Bread and Jam lines, IMO the reason this song doesn’t work is basically the character in the song is a bitch lol. You have no sympathy for her.

    Berry told the story about the development of LC and how they turned the negative [[having an illegitimate baby) into a positive. That’s what they failed to do here

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    During this time of year 50 years ago [[gulp!) we were hearing this on the radio daily. Released on January 5, 1969 and playing into the Spring of that year......Diana Ross & The Supremes with "I'm Livin' In Shame"!

    Mary and Cindy clearly are over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
    Mary and Cindy clearly are over it.
    They probably were thinking about where they were going after the show. LOL!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    While we could tweak things a bit to erase the stupid Bread and Jam lines, IMO the reason this song doesn’t work is basically the character in the song is a bitch lol. You have no sympathy for her.

    Berry told the story about the development of LC and how they turned the negative [[having an illegitimate baby) into a positive. That’s what they failed to do here
    I have sympathy for the character in the song. She is genuinely sorry for how she mistreated her mother, hence the title "I'm Living In Shame", and through asking her mother to forgive her for the wrong she has done, she achieves redemption.

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    This was basically Love Child redux obviously... it's nice on its own but compared to Love Child, doesn't quite hold up to the song it took its cue from.

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    I wish to weigh in on The Great Jam Controversy. It has been suggested by some here that the lyric involving the fore-mentioned jam is somehow inadequate. It is this writer's opinion that the lyric as written containing said jam is not only adequate but also the only appropriate lyric for the song, but there are other major lyrical faux pas that any sophisticated listener should not only notice but find to be nearly offensive. This essay shall prove my hypothesis.

    When we are introduced to the protagonist [['Mama') in the first stanza, we are told by the un-named narrator [[and antagonist) of the piece that the protagonist was 'cookin' bread'. So, it is established that Mama is a woman of the kitchen, and it is also established that the narrator has limited knowledge of common vocabulary as in the American English language idiom one bakes bread, one does not ‘cook’ bread.

    In the second stanza the narrator tells us that she has relocated to a ‘college town’ where she establishes a new identity. Additionally the narrator proves herself a sympathetic yet unreliable narrator. Along with her lies about her past life she has alluded to having attended college, yet her misuse of the word ‘cookin’ in the first stanza points to someone of less-than ideal education.

    The next stanzas relay the narrator’s marriage, child birth, and rather cruel obstruction of any situation that would have enabled ‘Mama’ to meet her grandchild. In a clever foreshadow of the tragedy to come a chorus tells the listener that the narrator is now yearning to reach out to ‘Mama’.

    The final stanza contains the controversial ‘jam’ line. It is perfection on the part of the lyricist that ‘Mama’, previously established as a woman of the kitchen, would pass while cooking. The narrative has concluded in a full circle, with the protagonist passing away as she had lived, doing her beloved cooking and thinking of her estranged daughter.

    It is a perfect line and the song would be senseless [[SENSELESS!!) any other way. Autographed copies of this paper are available in the lobby.

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    As anyone noticed on the stereo album mix there is a tape glitch during the jam line? It starts at 1:56 and lasts through 2:07. It does it again at 2:22 to 2:26. It sounds like something was wrong with the tape while they were mixing it. I'm rather surprised Motown didn't catch it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    As anyone noticed on the stereo album mix there is a tape glitch during the jam line? It starts at 1:56 and lasts through 2:07. It does it again at 2:22 to 2:26. It sounds like something was wrong with the tape while they were mixing it. I'm rather surprised Motown didn't catch it.
    I have always wondered the same thing. It is quite noticeable and I couldn't believe Motown released it that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    I have sympathy for the character in the song. She is genuinely sorry for how she mistreated her mother, hence the title "I'm Living In Shame", and through asking her mother to forgive her for the wrong she has done, she achieves redemption.
    Agreed. She may have been a bitch at some point, but by the time she's telling this story, you know it's not going to end well for her. And then when she has her "Imitation of Life" climax moment, you can't help but to feel bad for her cuz it's too late. But maybe Sup fan didn't feel for her because he's just mean and nasty.

    The only thing that could've really saved the hit version from my junk pile of music is if Mahalia Jackson had made a guest appearance singing "Trouble of the World" as Diana cries "Mama can you hear me". Mahalia Jackson and Diana Ross and the Supremes. That would've been so cool.

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    After the relevance of 'Love Child', this knockoff follow up is so contrived it's almost a joke. Only the production values and Diana's voice have any credibility, I.m.o.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Confused. I thought mama passed away while making homemade jam
    Naah! "Came the telegram, mama passed away while roasting leg of lamb."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post

    ...The final stanza contains the controversial ‘jam’ line. It is perfection on the part of the lyricist that ‘Mama’, previously established as a woman of the kitchen, would pass while cooking. The narrative has concluded in a full circle, with the protagonist passing away as she had lived, doing her beloved cooking and thinking of her estranged daughter.

    It is a perfect line and the song would be senseless [[SENSELESS!!) any other way. Autographed copies of this paper are available in the lobby.
    Exactly PeaceNHarmony, it's all as established by the lyricist.
    In effect, "Came the telegram, how mama died was at the whim of Sawyer, Pam."!!!
    Last edited by 144man; 02-23-2019 at 08:49 AM. Reason: Better scansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    As anyone noticed on the stereo album mix there is a tape glitch during the jam line? It starts at 1:56 and lasts through 2:07. It does it again at 2:22 to 2:26. It sounds like something was wrong with the tape while they were mixing it. I'm rather surprised Motown didn't catch it.
    It's obviously deliberate, the glitch while mixing the tape paralleling mama's death while mixing the jam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    While we could tweak things a bit to erase the stupid Bread and Jam lines, IMO the reason this song doesn’t work is basically the character in the song is a bitch lol. You have no sympathy for her.

    Berry told the story about the development of LC and how they turned the negative [[having an illegitimate baby) into a positive. That’s what they failed to do here
    I know where your coming from sup.....
    I mean this girl told so many lies it's untrue!!!. Mother dying in bloody Spain. Surrounded by servants,waiting on her hand and foot. Don't even get me started about the jam. I mean for gods sake there are limits. Call me old fashioned if you like but "mama i miss you" does not cut the mustard.
    Bottom line is, no matter how you dress it up, fifty years on and most of the lyrics still sound dodgy.
    Having said all that i do like the song.

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    this is probably my least fav supremes song. there is a different mix, Lost and Found and the Japan quad mix lp. nice to hear the different mixs but the lyrics, i cant get into it

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    Ralph - I'm wondering if Russ or yourself were involved with ILIS. The record has a unique sound, being at the same time dense and airy, reverential and tense. The instrumentation generally has a 'floaty' quality [[best represented by the intro) but there are parts [[such as the strings) that have a darker, tense effect. Can you give us any particulars about the recording and mixing of the record?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    Exactly PeaceNHarmony, it's all as established by the lyricist.
    In effect, "Came the telegram, how mama died was at the whim of Sawyer, Pam."!!!
    LOL that gave me a good chuckle!

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    I'm smiling because I remember being so ashamed of Living In Shame. Now, it's 50 years later, and we're discussing at length about it. Who'd have thought?! I've come to terms with the song [[but I've always liked the recording and Diana's vocal).

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    They probably were thinking about where they were going after the show. LOL!!!
    This is no doubt true. Mary was always far more interested in partying and having a good time rather than working hard. Glad you agree.

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    Came the phone call,
    Your mama didn’t die after all.
    Instead she’s well,
    She’s gonna give you hell
    For all those lies you tell.

    She’s always done her best
    But you’ve been a pest
    And now it’s time for her to get some rest.
    She says she’s well,
    But as far as she’s concerned,
    You can go to hell.

    Mama, mama, my pride I must swallow up.
    Mama, mama, this such a cr*ppy follow-up.

    I’m faking my shame,
    Mama I hate you.
    I want you to take the blame.
    Mama I hate you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    Came the phone call,
    Your mama didn’t die after all.
    Instead she’s well,
    She’s gonna give you hell
    For all those lies you tell.

    She’s always done her best
    But you’ve been a pest
    And now it’s time for her to get some rest.
    She says she’s well,
    But as far as she’s concerned,
    You can go to hell.

    Mama, mama, my pride I must swallow up.
    Mama, mama, this such a cr*ppy follow-up.

    I’m faking my shame,
    Mama I hate you.
    I want you to take the blame.
    Mama I hate you.
    Sotosound, that is priceless! I’m actually singing along with your updated lyrics. LOL

    On a positive note, I’ve always loved this song. I became a Diana Ross fan at nine years old in the mid-seventies and began discovering her Supremes’ hits without knowing which songs were most popular. This was campy fun and reminded me of Imitation Of Life...

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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    this is probably my least fav supremes song. there is a different mix, Lost and Found and the Japan quad mix lp. nice to hear the different mixs but the lyrics, i cant get into it
    David, that version on "Lost & Found" and the Japanese Quad LP from the '70s is a different music track, vocals, etc., to the released version. It was "version 1." It's not an alternate mix of the released version.

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