Was Florence going to come back to the Supremes?

[Oxfordfrankford513]

I saw the Supremes in the summer of 1967 in Atlantic City at Steel Pier. We had learned a few days before the show that Florence had been replaced. There was no official announcement yet whether this was temporary or permanent. Though I had read before in the papers earlier in the year that she had been replaced for some shows so I was hoping she'd be there when I saw the show, but she was not.

Now this was many years ago and my memory is a bit foggy and I was only 15, but when I managed to snag Diana for an autograph after the show, I asked what happened to Florence and she says: "Don't worry she'll be back soon, she's just taking a break".

As much as I grew fond of Cindy over the years, the live show was lacking without Florence. I had seen them just a year earlier and it was one I'll never forget. This time though, the show was good but not as good. Was Florence supposed to come back at some point?

I always remember Diana saying this and then waiting and waiting and it never happened.

[marv2]

I saw the Supremes in the summer of 1967 in Atlantic City at Steel Pier. We had learned a few days before the show that Florence had been replaced. There was no official announcement yet whether this was temporary or permanent. Though I had read before in the papers earlier in the year that she had been replaced for some shows so I was hoping she'd be there when I saw the show, but she was not.

Now this was many years ago and my memory is a bit foggy and I was only 15, but when I managed to snag Diana for an autograph after the show, I asked what happened to Florence and she says: "Don't worry she'll be back soon, she's just taking a break".

As much as I grew fond of Cindy over the years, the live show was lacking without Florence. I had seen them just a year earlier and it was one I'll never forget. This time though, the show was good but not as good. Was Florence supposed to come back at some point?

I always remember Diana saying this and then waiting and waiting and it never happened.

Diana said that Florence was tired of all of the traveling and wanted to settle down, get married and open an antique business....................

[captainjames]

I saw the Supremes in the summer of 1967 in Atlantic City at Steel Pier. We had learned a few days before the show that Florence had been replaced. There was no official announcement yet whether this was temporary or permanent. Though I had read before in the papers earlier in the year that she had been replaced for some shows so I was hoping she'd be there when I saw the show, but she was not.

Now this was many years ago and my memory is a bit foggy and I was only 15, but when I managed to snag Diana for an autograph after the show, I asked what happened to Florence and she says: "Don't worry she'll be back soon, she's just taking a break".

As much as I grew fond of Cindy over the years, the live show was lacking without Florence. I had seen them just a year earlier and it was one I'll never forget. This time though, the show was good but not as good. Was Florence supposed to come back at some point?

I always remember Diana saying this and then waiting and waiting and it never happened.

To be honest I think Mary and Diana was really hoping Flo would come back and everything would work itself out. Mary has been quoted as saying the same thing.

[bradsupremes]

I saw the Supremes in the summer of 1967 in Atlantic City at Steel Pier. We had learned a few days before the show that Florence had been replaced. There was no official announcement yet whether this was temporary or permanent. Though I had read before in the papers earlier in the year that she had been replaced for some shows so I was hoping she'd be there when I saw the show, but she was not.

Now this was many years ago and my memory is a bit foggy and I was only 15, but when I managed to snag Diana for an autograph after the show, I asked what happened to Florence and she says: "Don't worry she'll be back soon, she's just taking a break".

As much as I grew fond of Cindy over the years, the live show was lacking without Florence. I had seen them just a year earlier and it was one I'll never forget. This time though, the show was good but not as good. Was Florence supposed to come back at some point?

I always remember Diana saying this and then waiting and waiting and it never happened.

No. Florence's departure was for permanent. Gordy wouldn't have tolerated her coming back especially after giving her multiple chances to change. With the focus shifting on Diana, Florence wouldn't have put up with it and it would have only caused problems. Diana and Mary probably wished she turned herself around, but if they couldn't depend on her to be professional then it was best she didn't come back.

[TheMotownManiac]

I was “friends” with Cindy for years and I wish I would have asked specifically about this situation. She was very forthcoming and frank about things, but I didn’t want her to feel like I was priming the pump for dirt, so I didn’t go there - BIG MISTAKE!

‘’I know so much stuff about the group from her, but this giant nugget, this most prized nugget, remains unearthed. I don’t think we’ll ever know as Diana won’t say any damn thing about anything but her kids and Mary has her way of saying things as she feels at the moment that may or not be 100% accurate.

[khansperac]

Didn’t Diana say they were waiting for Blondie to come back? I recall her saying that in an interview. I think Mary has hinted at the same thing, but I could be wrong. Is it possible that Berry for whatever his reason may have been, Lead them to believe that?

[carlo]

Didn’t Diana say they were waiting for Blondie to come back? I recall her saying that in an interview.

Yes, she said that during her first sit down with Oprah.

[Oxfordfrankford513]

I wonder if Berry Gordy would have allowed Florence to come back for the Motown 25 special had she lived.

[midnightman]

Flo wanted to come back and so did the other girls.

[daviddh]

other girls???

[blackguy69]

I was “friends” with Cindy for years and I wish I would have asked specifically about this situation. She was very forthcoming and frank about things, but I didn’t want her to feel like I was priming the pump for dirt, so I didn’t go there - BIG MISTAKE!

‘’I know so much stuff about the group from her, but this giant nugget, this most prized nugget, remains unearthed. I don’t think we’ll ever know as Diana won’t say any damn thing about anything but her kids and Mary has her way of saying things as she feels at the moment that may or not be 100% accurate.

maybe the reason why she didn’t tell you is because she didn’t fully know herself. The big issue that most of us never address is that when someone tells that so and so told me whatever, is that what we hear is their perception of the events at question. A good number of some on here love to scream that Mary was lying, I think Cindy said it best when asked about Mary’s book, that she perceived thing slightly different than what Mary said but it hit Mary harder than it did her.

[marv2]

Flo wanted to come back and so did the other girls.

Yeah, I guess that's why she sued them in 1971.

[sup_fan]

I’d assume Diana comment to you while signing the autograph was just a quick answer in the moment. Something innocuous and innocent but would hopefully end the discussion

I agree that by July 67 Flo was out permanently. Sure d and m probably had day dreams about “what if” and all. But they too wanted her out. And for good reason. They had a lot of work to do and were trying to grow and continue their success. She was a major liability and frankly wasn’t holding up her end of the deal. From a business decision it made absolute sense for her to be gone

[midnightman]

Yeah, I guess that's why she sued them in 1971.

She sued MOTOWN, not Mary and Diana. Come on, dude.

[johnny_raven]

She sued MOTOWN, not Mary and Diana. Come on, dude.

Actually, she sued Motown, Diana, Berry & The Supremes.

[sup_fan]

True. Mary diana and Cindy were all named in the suit

[marv2]

She sued MOTOWN, not Mary and Diana. Come on, dude.

Yes did. Both Diane and Mary were named in the suit. They had to be named unfortunately.

[marv2]

Actually, she sued Motown, Diana, Berry & The Supremes.

Exactly. Some people evidently think I just make shit up and post it without thought. Oh well.................

[marv2]

True. Mary diana and Cindy were all named in the suit

I knew that. I thought Midnightman had saw a different lawsuit than the one I was referring to.

[marybrewster]

The only thing I've wondered is:

What would have happened to the group [[and Florence) if business owners or television hosts would have forced Berry's hand the way Jules from the Copa did. I think we've all heard the story [[and I'm paraphrasing) that Jules got wind that Florence wouldn't be there for an upcoming performance and he threatened to cancel their appearance if she wasn't.

What if Ed Sullivan would have said the same thing? What if Vegas would have stopped booking them?

Was there an air of, let's test the waters and see what the backlash is? If we start to lose bookings; start to lose TV, we need to bring Flo back?

[midnightman]

I think between the time the Copa owner threatened to cancel the Supremes gig if Flo didn't show to when Cindy officially replaced her after that horrible night in Vegas, something changed. Flo was having a mental breakdown onstage and for someone who was in a group that symbolized glam and sophistication, no one wanted that. It's unfortunate that getting help in those days was almost primitive at best and because Motown moved like an assembly line, it was too impatient to get someone in desperate need to get what she deserved.

[midnightman]

Yes did. Both Diane and Mary were named in the suit. They had to be named unfortunately.

I can only remember Motown's name being brought up? But if the suit did name them, then I kinda see how she lost too. She was in a no-win situation even if she was indeed wrongfully fired.

[marybrewster]

I think between the time the Copa owner threatened to cancel the Supremes gig if Flo didn't show to when Cindy officially replaced her after that horrible night in Vegas, something changed. Flo was having a mental breakdown onstage and for someone who was in a group that symbolized glam and sophistication, no one wanted that. It's unfortunate that getting help in those days was almost primitive at best and because Motown moved like an assembly line, it was too impatient to get someone in desperate need to get what she deserved.

I couldn't agree more. I can only imagine that due to events in Flo's past, there might have been a struggle with maintaining a sexy image.

If we fast forward to 2019, women are no longer sweeping their truths under the rug. You've got advocates and voices; performers like Michelle Williams [[DC), among others, who are public with her/their mental health.

Flo very well could have been in a different position 50 years later.

[marv2]

I can only remember Motown's name being brought up? But if the suit did name them, then I kinda see how she lost too. She was in a no-win situation even if she was indeed wrongfully fired.

Motown and Berry Gordy were in breach of contract when he fired Florence Ballard in July 1967. Her contract with Motown ran through 1968. He half assed tried to get around that by pretending to offer Florence a solo contract to remain on Motown.

[TheMotownManiac]

maybe the reason why she didn’t tell you is because she didn’t fully know herself. The big issue that most of us never address is that when someone tells that so and so told me whatever, is that what we hear is their perception of the events at question. A good number of some on here love to scream that Mary was lying, I think Cindy said it best when asked about Mary’s book, that she perceived thing slightly different than what Mary said but it hit Mary harder than it did her.

Cindy would have told me if I asked, I was just too much of a stoooopid idiot not to.

Cindy was sweet and didn’t want to hurt feelings or ruffle feathers but she also didn’t mind saying things privately that were her opinions - but it a gentle way so even major dirt seemed just like a light dusting. After Motown 45, her attitude changed as she was really angry at Mary, but, we had already begun to talk less and she was, obviously, not quite herself all the time. But it was Cindy that helped me see things from all perspectives. Most of the drama in the group was forgivable and understandable to her. There were things she never understood as well, but mostly, she felt most people did what was best for themselves.

[TheMotownManiac]

Motown and Berry Gordy were in breach of contract when he fired Florence Ballard in July 1967. Her contract with Motown ran through 1968. He half assed tried to get around that by pretending to offer Florence a solo contract to remain on Motown.

Flo was removed from The Suptemes for cause and was legal according to her contract. No performance contact excuses substance abuse, tardiness, failure to appear and insubordination. She was still under contract with Motown until Feb 1968 and continued to accrue royalties until that time. With proper counsel, she’d still be getting royalties.

[Ollie9]

Flo in a way was similar to Diana. Both women made their feelings known even if it was to their detriment. I think Flo being true to her own feelings could not handle what she felt was an injustice. She knew it was a losing battle and it ate away at her soul. With Berry putting her under pressure it was only a matter of time before the whole issue exploded.
From recorded interviews we know that 90% of Flo's issues were with Berry, not Diana. I do wonder whether on reflection he now wishes he had dealt with Flo a little more humanely. I guess it's a far tougher call when in the moment there is so very much at stake.

[bradsupremes]

From recorded interviews we know that 90% of Flo's issues were with Berry, not Diana. I do wonder whether on reflection he now wishes he had dealt with Flo a little more humanely. I guess it's a far tougher call when in the moment there is so very much at stake.

He probably doesn't think about it, but I'm sure he probably would have handled it differently knowing what would happen to her and in light of the help celebrities seek today for mental and substance abuse. Maybe having Florence take a break from the group to get the help she needed and then bring her back when her life was track may have been a good option. But then again, Berry would have had to change too in allowing Florence and Mary more leads. Maybe not on singles, but certainly B-sides and album tracks. His insistence on Diana getting all the leads would have still been a problem and a point of contention. His critiques would have had to stop too especially about her weight.

[midnightman]

I agree, Ollie, most of her issues definitely were with Berry. We have to remember all the Supremes were barely in their twenties and some were being more led than others...

[sup_fan]

Plus you have to remember the damage down between F and D and Berry just from a personal level. Yes there are aspects of the situation where flo was being unfairly dealt with. but look at things from Diana's perspective - she was working herself to death [[almost literally) to get the group into the best clubs and tv work. she invested every ounce of her being into every song she performed. she recorded a zillion songs, handled interviews, PR functions, etc, etc, etc. And she didn't earn a penny more than M or F. And Flo's behavior during this time threatened to completely ruin everything they'd worked for. What if she hadn't just come onto the Flamingo stage drunk but got sick or fell down or completely goofed her lines and part? What if after she left the public DIDN'T accept the new girl and the group started to collapse? Imagine D and M's frustration and anger at losing it all.

And with berry too - initially they were all good friends. and now he was having to be the bad guy. sure he was definitely responsible for some of the drama but not all.

[PeaceNHarmony]

This definitely should be the defining and final thread about this discussion since it gets regurgixxx I mean brought up over and over again.

[marv2]

He probably doesn't think about it, but I'm sure he probably would have handled it differently knowing what would happen to her and in light of the help celebrities seek today for mental and substance abuse. Maybe having Florence take a break from the group to get the help she needed and then bring her back when her life was track may have been a good option. But then again, Berry would have had to change too in allowing Florence and Mary more leads. Maybe not on singles, but certainly B-sides and album tracks. His insistence on Diana getting all the leads would have still been a problem and a point of contention. His critiques would have had to stop too especially about her weight.

He probably doesn't think about it now. You will also never hear him mention her name. However, back when she died, he quickly made it known that Motown would be paying for her funeral.

[fightingirish46]

Cindy would have told me if I asked, I was just too much of a stoooopid idiot not to.

Cindy was sweet and didn’t want to hurt feelings or ruffle feathers but she also didn’t mind saying things privately that were her opinions - but it a gentle way so even major dirt seemed just like a light dusting. After Motown 50, her attitude changed as she was really angry at Mary, but, we had already begun to talk less and she was, obviously, not quite herself all the time. But it was Cindy that helped me see things from all perspectives. Most of the drama in the group was forgivable and understandable to her. There were things she never understood as well, but mostly, she felt most people did what was best for themselves.

Hold on. I'm sorry but why was Cindy angry at Mary after Motown 50? Just lost....

[marybrewster]

What was Motown 50?

[TheMotownManiac]

Oops - I meant Motown 45. This has been discussed here before I believe, but, in a nut shell, Cindy told Mary that after RTL, she didn’t want to perform on the special with a non-Supreme and Mary told her that she’d get one of the 70s and that they;d share lead duties. Cindy signed on. Scherrie was the natural choice and wanted to do it, but was nixed by Mary in favor of Kelly Rowland, plus, Cindy was given almost nothing to do or wear. She felt used and marginalized - just like she did with RTL and this was the last straw. Scherrie, by the way, attended but only as a spectator.

[midnightman]

Plus you have to remember the damage down between F and D and Berry just from a personal level. Yes there are aspects of the situation where flo was being unfairly dealt with. but look at things from Diana's perspective - she was working herself to death [[almost literally) to get the group into the best clubs and tv work. she invested every ounce of her being into every song she performed. she recorded a zillion songs, handled interviews, PR functions, etc, etc, etc. And she didn't earn a penny more than M or F. And Flo's behavior during this time threatened to completely ruin everything they'd worked for. What if she hadn't just come onto the Flamingo stage drunk but got sick or fell down or completely goofed her lines and part? What if after she left the public DIDN'T accept the new girl and the group started to collapse? Imagine D and M's frustration and anger at losing it all.

And with berry too - initially they were all good friends. and now he was having to be the bad guy. sure he was definitely responsible for some of the drama but not all.

What happened with the Supremes is typical of most groups once they become famous. Suddenly you don't share the same goals you did when you were younger and struggling...

[blackguy69]

Oops - I meant Motown 45. This has been discussed here before I believe, but, in a nut shell, Cindy told Mary that after RTL, she didn’t want to perform on the special with a non-Supreme and Mary told her that she’d get one of the 70s and that they;d share lead duties. Cindy signed on. Scherrie was the natural choice and wanted to do it, but was nixed by Mary in favor of Kelly Rowland, plus, Cindy was given almost nothing to do or wear. She felt used and marginalized - just like she did with RTL and this was the last straw. Scherrie, by the way, attended but only as a spectator.

Well apparently all must’ve been forgiven since they have been seen together many times.

[franjoy56]

Jean was also named in that suit.

[franjoy56]

The one thing that flo considered sn injustice was taking her one solo away from her during the groups opening at thr copa had they not messed w that among other things having more input in their presrntation and not just ooohing and aaahing things might hsvr been different. You could hear t dififference between supremes at the roostertail sept 66 and talk of the town 1968 no contest

[marybrewster]

Oops - I meant Motown 45. This has been discussed here before I believe, but, in a nut shell, Cindy told Mary that after RTL, she didn’t want to perform on the special with a non-Supreme and Mary told her that she’d get one of the 70s and that they;d share lead duties. Cindy signed on. Scherrie was the natural choice and wanted to do it, but was nixed by Mary in favor of Kelly Rowland, plus, Cindy was given almost nothing to do or wear. She felt used and marginalized - just like she did with RTL and this was the last straw. Scherrie, by the way, attended but only as a spectator.

While I don't doubt some validity in this, I question how much "pull" Mary really had with Motown 45. You'd think for a special of this nature, someone above and beyond Mary would be doing the negotiations. On the flip side, Martha was able to include her sisters over Roz and Annette, so who knows.

As far as RTL, well, I've always thought that Cindy was a grown woman and simply could have done it if she wanted. If she truly let Mary speak for her, that's nothing but foolish. As an entertainer, she should have known better. I do think however Mary and Cindy were a "package deal". No Mary = No Cindy.

[thanxal]

What happened with the Supremes is typical of most groups once they become famous. Suddenly you don't share the same goals you did when you were younger and struggling...

Totally agree. The simplest explanation is always the best.

But then again, there's no intrigue, tribal fighting, and name calling to be had so the conspiracy theories, half-truths, and old animosities will probably live on forever.

[jobeterob]

What happened with the Supremes is typical of most groups once they become famous. Suddenly you don't share the same goals you did when you were younger and struggling...

And it is exacerbated when the hits stop - which was the real issue for the 70's Supremes and the Marvelettes and Vandellas before them.

[Motown Eddie]

I saw the Supremes in the summer of 1967 in Atlantic City at Steel Pier. We had learned a few days before the show that Florence had been replaced. There was no official announcement yet whether this was temporary or permanent. Though I had read before in the papers earlier in the year that she had been replaced for some shows so I was hoping she'd be there when I saw the show, but she was not.

Now this was many years ago and my memory is a bit foggy and I was only 15, but when I managed to snag Diana for an autograph after the show, I asked what happened to Florence and she says: "Don't worry she'll be back soon, she's just taking a break".

As much as I grew fond of Cindy over the years, the live show was lacking without Florence. I had seen them just a year earlier and it was one I'll never forget. This time though, the show was good but not as good. Was Florence supposed to come back at some point?

I always remember Diana saying this and then waiting and waiting and it never happened.

Diana's statement about Flo, "don't worry, she'll be back soon", is just good old fashioned Motown Public Relations [[similar to quotes that I'd read in the '70s that "she had left the group to start a family"). As it's already been said by others at this post, it was all over between Berry/The Supremes and Florence.

[TheMotownManiac]

While I don't doubt some validity in this, I question how much "pull" Mary really had with Motown 45. You'd think for a special of this nature, someone above and beyond Mary would be doing the negotiations. On the flip side, Martha was able to include her sisters over Roz and Annette, so who knows.

As far as RTL, well, I've always thought that Cindy was a grown woman and simply could have done it if she wanted. If she truly let Mary speak for her, that's nothing but foolish. As an entertainer, she should have known better. I do think however Mary and Cindy were a "package deal". No Mary = No Cindy.

Mary had all the pull because since Ross wasn’t interested, she was the only Supreme.

as far as RTL goes, what went down will cause a war here, but let’s just say that Cindy was not kept in the loop as judiciously as one might like when she was being negotiated for by Mary - who told her it was all done. Cindy was packed and ready to go to Oprah when she found out. She was not happy. At that point, she WANTED to do it even without Mary, but it was too late - And I fault Ross for this - she should have let Cindy join in some capacity - but how? I think Ross was mad at her and just shut her out. I doubt she knew that Mary hadn’t been forthcoming about the negotiations with Cindy or she might have found a way to add her. It was all such a mess.

[midnightman]

And it is exacerbated when the hits stop - which was the real issue for the 70's Supremes and the Marvelettes and Vandellas before them.

Right. Motown had stopped focusing on groups by 1972. The Four Tops were let go [[without Berry's permission), the Marvelettes had stopped being a group longer before the others [[the actual group quit in 1969 but Wanda Young released a solo record under the Marvelettes moniker in 1970), the Vandellas were not given great material to make a comeback of any sort after Mickey Stevenson and HDH departed. Gladys Knight and the Pips left at the end of 1972 after "Neither One of Us" was released. And after 1972, the Supremes met the same fate.

The only groups from the classic years [[1959-72) still making noise in Motown for a little longer: The Jackson 5 and the Temptations.

[sup_fan]

you know if we're wanting to "point fingers" at the downfall in early 70s, maybe Berry isn't exactly the right target. We all know that he was focused primarily on Diana and Hollywood which is why he brought in the other execs like Ewart Abner. by 73 Ewart was president of Motown records and so the idea of acts succeeding or failing during this time would have been on his watch.

all i really know about his is what Mary writes - prior to motown he was at VeeJay records in chicago. then after Motown acquired that label, he was head of International Talent Management. Anyone know anything more about him? has there ever been any info written about what his vision was or what areas he/VeeJay excelled at?

At first glance it seems as though a significant amount of classic acts finally collapsed and/or left under his watch - Sups, Vandellas, four tops, gladys knight and pips.

plus this is all right at the time of the motown offices moving to LA. maybe he just want a poor executive and between the changing tastes of the public and the enormous task of moving the corporate offices, it was too much for him

[midnightman]

Yeah. Ewart was bad business. I wonder what Marvin thought of him...

[milven]

.....all i really know about his is what Mary writes - prior to motown he was at VeeJay records in chicago. then after Motown acquired that label, he was head of International Talent Management....

I don't recall Mary writing that Motown aquired Vee-Jay. Did she? As far as I remember, Vee-Jay was aquired by no one and went bankrupt. Vee-Jay was at one time a very successful independant label with great artists like the 4 Seasons, Gladys and Pips, Jerry Butler, Betty Everett and even the Beatles. As for Ed Abner, he was a gambler and used Vee-Jay money to pay off his gambling debts. That is probably what caused it to fold. It wasn't a secret in the industry and I was surprised that he landed such a prominant position at Motown

[marybrewster]

Mary had all the pull because since Ross wasn’t interested, she was the only Supreme.

as far as RTL goes, what went down will cause a war here, but let’s just say that Cindy was not kept in the loop as judiciously as one might like when she was being negotiated for by Mary - who told her it was all done. Cindy was packed and ready to go to Oprah when she found out. She was not happy. At that point, she WANTED to do it even without Mary, but it was too late - And I fault Ross for this - she should have let Cindy join in some capacity - but how? I think Ross was mad at her and just shut her out. I doubt she knew that Mary hadn’t been forthcoming about the negotiations with Cindy or she might have found a way to add her. It was all such a mess.

No war to start, but Cindy should have put an attorney on retainer and done her own negotiating. Perhaps that in itself would have changed the outcome. The game of what if's. Truthfully, Diana and Mary and Cindy should have let someone else hash it out. I've never heard of an entertainer negotiating for themselves.

Regardless I had heard that Diana wasn't too keen on Cindy anyway, at least as far as her voice was concerned.

After all was said and done, I think Diana or even Scherrie still could have flown Cindy out for one night, if at least just to bring her onstage.

[midnightman]

I don't recall Mary writing that Motown aquired Vee-Jay. Did she? As far as I remember, Vee-Jay was aquired by no one and went bankrupt. Vee-Jay was at one time a very successful independant label with great artists like the 4 Seasons, Gladys and Pips, Jerry Butler, Betty Everett and even the Beatles. As for Ed Abner, he was a gambler and used Vee-Jay money to pay off his gambling debts. That is probably what caused it to fold. It wasn't a secret in the industry and I was surprised that he landed such a prominant position at Motown

Who hired him to begin with? Smokey?!