The Supremes - I'll Guess I'll Miss the Man

[marv2]

This song should have been a hit, but problem would have been how to market it. It fit perfectly in with what was programmed for MOR/AC radio in the seventies. I think it was very well produced and The Supremes could not have sounded better. This is another one of those recordings that just seemed to slip through the cracks:

[Bluebrock]

This song should have been a hit, but problem would have been how to market it. It fit perfectly in with what was programmed for MOR/AC radio in the seventies. I think it was very well produced and The Supremes could not have sounded better. This is another one of those recordings that just seemed to slip through the cracks:

I love it too but maybe it just lacked that commercial factor to push it further. Beautiful vocals by Jean as always. I hated the Jimmy Webb album but this is one lovely song that i still play regularly.

[sup_fan]

i too really like the recording and think Jean's controlled vocal is marvelous. while i did enjoy her live work, she's often stray heavily from the melody and song with her ad libs and "soul." that certainly showcased her talents but sometimes less is more. Often i really wasn't thrilled with her performances of Stoned Love as she'd completely ditch the melody and just vamp. one of the beauties of SL is the amazing lyric and melody

as for IGIMTM, i think a couple of things happened. just like a plane crash, it's usually never 1 specific thing

1. loss of Cindy - not trying to start a lynda war as i really like her. but the personnel change in the spring of 72 really hurt the girls IMO. they'd made a strong showing with FJ but then the wind was let out of their sails. AS crept into the top 40 and YWSSL flopped. so by the time they got to IGIMTM the steam was gone

2. motown's move to LA - i think this also contributed to problems. their HQ staff was tied up with the move and so probably totally distracted

3. Lady Sings - we all know berry was focused on this and not music

4. Pippin - it's a good show. but it's not an amazing show. yes it won some Tony's but it never really had the "oomph" of other big Broadway productions. You had had Hair just a few years before, then Jesus Christ Superstar. Also Company was huge. so i think Pippin just didn't quite penetrate the collective US conscience. Also the show didn't debut on broadway until late Oct 73. so the single was probably a little premature. perhaps if the single was released closer to when the Tony's were held and/or announced, since it was nominated for several, it would have done a bit better

[Circa 1824]

The problem was the musical arrangement. It should have been strong and lush, not simple and understated. Jean's voice was too prominent, and dominated the song. Her voice is interesting, but not beautiful

Also, the song was almost too "intelligent" for the average pop radio listener. Thus, it had no chance to be a radio hit.

[sup_fan]

true - the lyrics are a bit too down. the topic of the song is a bit depressing. many other popular ballads are 1) more lush as you said and 2) more focused on love, romance or passion

also another interesting point is that almost exactly a year prior they tried Touch and it failed miserably. of course there are many reasons why that could be - the creepy sort of "haunted house" intro with the strings, Mary's voice not being as familiar with the public, the contrast of Mary's buttery smooth vocals and Jean's higher pitched, more piercing sound, a hideously mastered single

[marv2]

Here is a List of number-one adult contemporary singles of 1972 [[U.S.). I would put "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" up against any one of them in terms of sound and "commercial" viability, which only means would it sell:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_of_1972_[[U.S.)

[marv2]

i too really like the recording and think Jean's controlled vocal is marvelous. while i did enjoy her live work, she's often stray heavily from the melody and song with her ad libs and "soul." that certainly showcased her talents but sometimes less is more. Often i really wasn't thrilled with her performances of Stoned Love as she'd completely ditch the melody and just vamp. one of the beauties of SL is the amazing lyric and melody

as for IGIMTM, i think a couple of things happened. just like a plane crash, it's usually never 1 specific thing

1. loss of Cindy - not trying to start a lynda war as i really like her. but the personnel change in the spring of 72 really hurt the girls IMO. they'd made a strong showing with FJ but then the wind was let out of their sails. AS crept into the top 40 and YWSSL flopped. so by the time they got to IGIMTM the steam was gone

2. motown's move to LA - i think this also contributed to problems. their HQ staff was tied up with the move and so probably totally distracted

3. Lady Sings - we all know berry was focused on this and not music

4. Pippin - it's a good show. but it's not an amazing show. yes it won some Tony's but it never really had the "oomph" of other big Broadway productions. You had had Hair just a few years before, then Jesus Christ Superstar. Also Company was huge. so i think Pippin just didn't quite penetrate the collective US conscience. Also the show didn't debut on broadway until late Oct 73. so the single was probably a little premature. perhaps if the single was released closer to when the Tony's were held and/or announced, since it was nominated for several, it would have done a bit better

I was going purely by the sound of the recording. What people would hear if it were played on the radio. All the other things you mentioned, most would not even know about and would not effect how good or bad the recording sounded.

[marv2]

The problem was the musical arrangement. It should have been strong and lush, not simple and understated. Jean's voice was too prominent, and dominated the song. Her voice is interesting, but not beautiful

Also, the song was almost too "intelligent" for the average pop radio listener. Thus, it had no chance to be a radio hit.

I thoroughly agree that it may have been too "intelligent" for the average pop radio listener. Thinking back, some of the biggest radio hits had "simple simon" lyrics with a beat or hook that was very simple.

[marv2]

true - the lyrics are a bit too down. the topic of the song is a bit depressing. many other popular ballads are 1) more lush as you said and 2) more focused on love, romance or passion

also another interesting point is that almost exactly a year prior they tried Touch and it failed miserably. of course there are many reasons why that could be - the creepy sort of "haunted house" intro with the strings, Mary's voice not being as familiar with the public, the contrast of Mary's buttery smooth vocals and Jean's higher pitched, more piercing sound, a hideously mastered single

"Alone Again [[Naturally)" by Gilbert O'Sullivan had some of the most depressing lyrics ever, yet it still went to number one on the A/C charts in 1972.

[sup_fan]

I was going purely by the sound of the recording. What people would hear if it were played on the radio. All the other things you mentioned, most would not even know about and would not effect how good or bad the recording sounded.

and i think the sounds is quite pretty. i like the simplicity and all.

but a pretty song doesn't always equal a hit. i think as the song is, it should have charted FAR higher than it did. sure maybe it would never have been a #1, or maybe if they'd tweaked it a few ways it might have been better. but my take on why it failed in fall of 72 is as stated above. i think the group's then-current recording reputation was rapidly diminishing, radio programmers were thinking no one really cares much about them any more, the public and press were wondering why so many girls were in the group and meanwhile motown was focused elsewhere.

that's why the record didn't get played on radio much, IMO

[thommg]

true - the lyrics are a bit too down. the topic of the song is a bit depressing. many other popular ballads are 1) more lush as you said and 2) more focused on love, romance or passion

It is interesting that you say that about the lyrics because they are not the ones used in the Broadway show. Those are lyrics rewritten to make it a love song. The lyrics in the show are actually humorous.
"Some days he wouldn't say
A pleasant word all day
Some days he'd scowl and curse
But there were other days
When he was really... even worse..."

[sup_fan]

wow - that certainly adds a new dimension to the tune lol. are those the lyrics that would have been sung during the group "oooo" section? always figured that they added that part to highlight the trio's harmonies and therefore skipping whatever lyrics normally are sung there

[midnightman]

If they kept the song the way it was written, it would be a hit.

[jobucats]

I had never heard the song until I heard the Supremes version, so that's what I came to love.

[marv2]

Jean Terrell's voice is extremely beautiful in my opinion.

[sup_fan]

^agreed she was amazingly versatile. too bad we didn't get to hear her do more things with the group. i know by the 70s they weren't really doing the "specialty material" albums like the girls did before. but image if they decided to do another full show lp a la Funny Girl. i can totally hear Jean being amazing on the soundtrack to Hair or Jesus Christ Superstar

[kenneth]

I never knew until someone on this forum told me that it was the only track on the "Jimmy Webb" album not produced by JW. I've never liked the song. I think it has a verse but no chorus and is just so, so downbeat. Even though the subject matter might not seem to warrant it, I think a more upbeat arrangement might make it "sell" better.

And although I can't say why [[how should I know?) I'm kind of surprised that Marv likes this song so much!

I felt the "Jimmy Webb" album really starts with the opening chords of "5:30 Plane," in my opinion one of Jean's best performances.

[marv2]

I never knew until someone on this forum told me that it was the only track on the "Jimmy Webb" album not produced by JW. I've never liked the song. I think it has a verse but no chorus and is just so, so downbeat. Even though the subject matter might not seem to warrant it, I think a more upbeat arrangement might make it "sell" better.

And although I can't say why [[how should I know?) I'm kind of surprised that Marv likes this song so much!

I felt the "Jimmy Webb" album really starts with the opening chords of "5:30 Plane," in my opinion one of Jean's best performances.

It is just a good song and a great vocal performance in my opinion. I don't remember how I felt about it back when it was released, but I do like it when I hear it now.

[kenneth]

It is just a good song and a great vocal performance in my opinion. I don't remember how I felt about it back when it was released, but I do like it when I hear it now.

Did you know at the time when it was released as a single? I never did, never heard it anywhere but on that album.

[daviddh]

i liked the live version when the ladies sing it in harmony but it is not a fav of mine. i think WHEN CAN BROWN BEGIN was the gem. overlooked. dont like the album.to low key for me.
overall, motown's move to LA not only hurt the Supremes but just about everyone at motown but ,....about 4 people. sad. BG should have kept detroit open for music and LA for movies and specials.

[milven]

I remember when it was released as a single. Although I will probably be proven wrong, I also remember it as the first stereo Motown single.

I saw Pippin on Broadway when it first opened back in the stone age and enjoyed the cast, story and music. Besides MISS THE MAN, it also had another Motown hit, CORNER OF THE SKY. And one of my favorites, Ben Vereen, did MAGIC TO DO.

Even Granny from the Beverly Hillbillies was in it and sang NO TIME AT ALL. In fact, she re-recorded it, and it was released on Motown. How 'bout that? Granny of the BEVERLY HILLBILLIES was a Motown artist

[marv2]

Did you know at the time when it was released as a single? I never did, never heard it anywhere but on that album.

Yeah I knew. It was played in Detroit and Toledo at the time on A/C formatted stations.

[marv2]

I think Motown was an investor or something in the show.

[TomatoTom123]

Just listened to the song for what I think was the first time and it's entirely pleasant and very lovely, but not a hit, in my opinion. Jean is wonderful though.

[marv2]

This was said about the record at the time of it's release:

[kenneth]

That’s a very interesting review considering how unusual the record was for a single release really. Thanks for posting.

I think this song might’ve also been helped if it had another verse perhaps. It’s really quite short as I recall it. I think it would’ve been better if it had been fleshed out a little bit. Maybe with a nice bridge in the middle also.

[TomatoTom123]

This was said about the record at the time of it's release:

Thanks marv, I think that's from the UK's Blues & Soul magazine. I agree it would probably need a lot of exposure to hit, it's nice and will grow on me but that might take a while.

[marv2]

That’s a very interesting review considering how unusual the record was for a single release really. Thanks for posting.

I think this song might’ve also been helped if it had another verse perhaps. It’s really quite short as I recall it. I think it would’ve been better if it had been fleshed out a little bit. Maybe with a nice bridge in the middle also.

It was no more unusual than "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" by Roberta Flack that was released a few month's prior to the Supremes record.

[sup_fan]

i think a more simple production style and acoustic approach/sound would have definitely worked for the girls. by later 72 things were changing and, at a high level, i think much of the Jimmy work could have worked. love the opening chords on 530. and even though I Guess wasn't his, i think it could have tied in nicely. unfortunately what we got from Jimmy was these overproduced operatic messes. had the vocals been limited to just MJL and had they toned down a few of the productions to be somewhat less bombastic and over producer, it could have worked.

Also i think they should have done more JW songs within the set list

[gordy_hunk]

Marv - thanks for the quote which of course, relates to the UK release.

As far as I know, Pippin was not a stage production over here, so we had to rely on the soundtrack [[which I really did enjoy - and was one of my favourite LP at that time), and the singles - The Supremes [[I guess I'll miss the man) and Michael Jackson's "Morning glow".

The LP - Produced etc by Jimmy Webb I really didn't like, and along with Floy Joy LP, the Supremes for me were going off completely [[even though I did like Your wonderful sweet sweet love and also Automatically Sunshine).

The single - Morning Glow - was really well sung by Michael, and yet both of these singles didn't seem to have much airplay nor sales.

I know people comment about the lineup of the Supremes, but, and I am only able to speak for myself, I knew Jean had taken over [[of course), and I knew who the other two were, but even until the 1975 LP "The Supremes", I had no idea that the lineup was any different to that after being announced at the Frontier Hotel on January 14 1970.

Just my humble opinion, but the single "I guess I'll miss the man" may have been more appropriate for Mary to have sung.

[thommg]

Pippin did play London in 1973, but only for 85 performances. The chance for anyone to see it was pretty slim!

[kenneth]

It was no more unusual than "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" by Roberta Flack that was released a few month's prior to the Supremes record.

There certainly are some similarities but one difference I think is that Flack often performed these kind of langorous, slow moving songs and her voice seemed suited to that tempo. I think I recall that "First Time" was off her first album but didn't hit until a few years later. I do like that song a lot.

Good observation though.

[Boogiedown]

Ha !! I just listened to this song .....the "man" was a total jerk, a butthole, and likely worse .

She has nothing good to say about him except at the end where she concludes he's better than nothing.

I can see why it failed, hardly a healthy outlook for a relationship even back then, can't imagine a woman singing it today.

[johnjeb]

Ha !! I just listened to this song .....the "man" was a total jerk, a butthole, and likely worse .

She has nothing good to say about him except at the end where she concludes he's better than nothing.

I can see why it failed, hardly a healthy outlook for a relationship even back then, can't imagine a woman singing it today.

Exactly, not too many males were going to listen to this song on the radio for 2:38 about a man behaving badly.

"Last Time I Saw Him" was also not favorable about a man but had a snappy melody which may have helped; same with "Nathan Jones".

Roberta Flack's "First Time" and "Killing Me Softly" both spoke positively about a man's attributes.

[sup_fan]

yeah - while i'm not all that familiar with the overall plot and characters of Pippin, i'm assuming that the song somehow fits in with the trials and tribulations of one of the characters. she story and plot must somehow fit in with the lyrics

I'd assume there HAS to be other more interesting and exciting songs from the score that the girls could have done. what if they did Corner instead of the J5?

Or why didn't motown have the acts do more of the score and then issue a Various Artist soundtrack? something to help push the show and Motown's involvement.

but again, i think the girls would have been just as better off with doing something else. or have them do a more interesting score lp - a la Funny Girl

[kenneth]

@sup_fan, sounds like a fun idea for a thread. What shows could Motown have recorded using their marquee acts?

Hello Dolly! - with Diana Ross would seem like a natural, and she's the right age for the part now, but would have been too young while at Motown

Follies - all the Divas would be great in this show, and it does have an older cast so they could even be cast in it today

How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying - this is a fun show and would have been great to see someone like the young Marvin Gaye playing the ambitious, upwardly mobile hero

Promises, Promises - the musical version of the film "The Apartment," with a score by Bacharach and David. The hero [[Jerry Orbach on Broadway) could be any number of Motown male stars, the confused girl could have been played by someone like Mary Wilson. Of course, these are young parts so they couldn't do it today. This score includes gems like "I'll Never Fall in Love Again" and of course, the title tune.

[marv2]

"I Guess I'll Miss the Man" did make it to #17 on Billboard's Adult Contemporary Chart.

[bradsupremes]

I always found this era as a group in identity crisis. They didn't know what they wanted to be. To go from the material like "Floy Joy" and "Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" to "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" and then to "Bad Weather" is pretty jarring. "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" is a nice song, but it's definitely not single worthy. I hardly play it. It just doesn't grab you and was a poor choice for a single at a time when the group really needed a kick into a new gear. I wonder if that was Motown's doing as way to bring the group to a halt. I'm not sure when "Remote Control" was recorded, but they needed a song like that especially one to reintroduce them to the R&B community. The Jimmy Webb album was a mistake and should have never happened. I know there was talk of Thom Bell at one time coming in to produce them. That's the direction they should have moved.

[midnightman]

Right. I review the albums after 1971 and it was like the group - and the label itself - didn't know where to take the group. After so many years on top and setting the trend, they were really stuck. Remote Control definitely should've definitely been released over IGIMTM.

[marv2]

I always found this era as a group in identity crisis. They didn't know what they wanted to be. To go from the material like "Floy Joy" and "Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" to "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" and then to "Bad Weather" is pretty jarring. "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" is a nice song, but it's definitely not single worthy. I hardly play it. It just doesn't grab you and was a poor choice for a single at a time when the group really needed a kick into a new gear. I wonder if that was Motown's doing as way to bring the group to a halt. I'm not sure when "Remote Control" was recorded, but they needed a song like that especially one to reintroduce them to the R&B community. The Jimmy Webb album was a mistake and should have never happened. I know there was talk of Thom Bell at one time coming in to produce them. That's the direction they should have moved.

"Floy Joy" was a #5 R&B/Soul hit just a few months prior to "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" being released. So it wasn't that they needed any re-introductions. We never left them.

[marv2]

The Supremes had 6 single releases in 1972 which was too many.

[TheMotownManiac]

The Supremes had 3 single releases in 1972: automatically sunshine, your wonderful sweet sweet love, I guess I’ll miss the man. There were no others. All 3 were problematic as singles.
Automatically sunshine has a fairly weak chorus, but wonderful verses very well sung. Mary is sexy as hell.

YWSSL Has a great track, but Jean doesn’t sell the lyric correctly so the listener is instantly lost as to what the song is about – which is A single killer right off the bat. Also, the background vocals need to be brightened up by a higher voice. I know the on anDantes are on this album, so there’s no excuse for the dull bg sound. It’s too bad they couldn’t bring Flo back just to record backgrounds with Mary.

IGIMTM is a pretty, gentle tune but it’s a very unpleasant lyric and not one that people would identify with and want to listen to over and over again. Jeans vocal performance is superb and I think it needed a little bit better production and some sort of ending…… As it stands, It was a terrible choice to go out as it is…. but with some help I think it could’ve hit.

[marv2]

They had six [[6) releases in 1972. That is a fact, everything else is just your opinion.....

1. "Floy Joy" [[released in Dec. 71' but did not enter the charts until Jan. 72'
2. "Automatically Sunshine"
3. "Without the One You Love"
4. "Your Wonderful, Sweet Sweet Love"
5. "I Guess I'll Miss the Man"
6. "Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)"

[gordy_hunk]

Pippin did play London in 1973, but only for 85 performances. The chance for anyone to see it was pretty slim!

Thanks for the update - I never knew that it had ever been performed here. Must admit, even though I really did love the LP, "Pippin", I had absolutely no idea what the story was really about [[nor did I know any of the performers, including Irene Granny Ryan, although I later learned she was famous for being in some kind of series?).

[sup_fan]

They had six [[6) releases in 1972. That is a fact, everything else is just your opinion.....

1. "Floy Joy" [[released in Dec. 71' but did not enter the charts until Jan. 72'
2. "Automatically Sunshine"
3. "Without the One You Love"
4. "Your Wonderful, Sweet Sweet Love"
5. "I Guess I'll Miss the Man"
6. "Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)"

You're mixing regions. Without and Reach were only international releases. they were not in the US. the singles RELEASED on the US were

Automatically Sunshine - 4/11/72
YWSSL - 7/11/72
I Guess - Oct 72 [[not sure why no sources can list the date of the month - anyone??)

internationally the release schedule was:
Floy Joy - Feb 72
Without - May 72
Auto - June 72
Reach - Nov 72
YWSSL - Nov 72

Internationally, I Guess wasn't released until Jan 74. As for FJ in the states, yes i agree that you have a point that it's charting activity was in 72 and not 71. And the girls promoted it on Merv in Jan 72. but technically, the single was released on 12/1. there certainly were other singles that started to chart within weeks or even days of release. FJ obviously took a little time to warm up. but it was a 71 release.

[sup_fan]

I always found this era as a group in identity crisis. They didn't know what they wanted to be. To go from the material like "Floy Joy" and "Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" to "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" and then to "Bad Weather" is pretty jarring. "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" is a nice song, but it's definitely not single worthy. I hardly play it. It just doesn't grab you and was a poor choice for a single at a time when the group really needed a kick into a new gear. I wonder if that was Motown's doing as way to bring the group to a halt. I'm not sure when "Remote Control" was recorded, but they needed a song like that especially one to reintroduce them to the R&B community. The Jimmy Webb album was a mistake and should have never happened. I know there was talk of Thom Bell at one time coming in to produce them. That's the direction they should have moved.

you're definitely right. wasn't it around mid 72 that their identify crisis continued over to their live shows too, when they took a bunch of the old DRATS song book and brought many of the tunes back?

It always seemed, at least through the mid 70s, that there was a total lack of coordination between the studio and live work of the groups. Diana included. they were taking these huge Vegas-like shows and touring them everywhere. and then they occasionally incorporate a new recorded song. But the tours weren't focused on centered around an album or project. maybe they started some of this with Diana and Lady tours. but the Sups certainly weren't doing anything significant to promote their lps.

Working with 3 high profile producers - Smokey, JW and SW - you'd think that they're really hype that up. leverage the producer's name and notoriety. revamp the show to acknowledge their working with him. plus the revamping of the show would have re-energized the public's desire to attend

[bradsupremes]

you're definitely right. wasn't it around mid 72 that their identify crisis continued over to their live shows too, when they took a bunch of the old DRATS song book and brought many of the tunes back?

It always seemed, at least through the mid 70s, that there was a total lack of coordination between the studio and live work of the groups. Diana included. they were taking these huge Vegas-like shows and touring them everywhere. and then they occasionally incorporate a new recorded song. But the tours weren't focused on centered around an album or project. maybe they started some of this with Diana and Lady tours. but the Sups certainly weren't doing anything significant to promote their lps.

Working with 3 high profile producers - Smokey, JW and SW - you'd think that they're really hype that up. leverage the producer's name and notoriety. revamp the show to acknowledge their working with him. plus the revamping of the show would have re-energized the public's desire to attend

Exactly. When Gil Askey came back as their musical director, he brought out the Farewell charts and reincorporated them into the show. Jean was not particularly happy with this. She refused to say the spoken passages in "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone" and put her foot down on doing "Love Child" despite having performed it in their shows when she first joined. I think a lot of this falls back on Motown and their inability to break out of the Vegas-style show format that had worked so well in the 60s. By 1972, the musical audience had changed and doing a Vegas-style show dated the group and skewed them to an older crowd.

They needed a Vicki Wickham to come in and totally reinvent them, their image, and musical approach. I would have kept the glamour, but dropped the 60s gowns and become more in line with how the Three Degrees were doing it. When I said earlier that they needed to be reintroduced to the R&B community, I meant in the aspect that they should have been the primary target in their musical approach. In the 60s, Motown was really about the crossover appeal. They wanted to hit on the pop charts. By the 70s, the focus should have shifted to just the R&B charts and less on the pop. The Pointer Sisters were catching fire around this time. Having someone like Thom Bell or Stevie Wonder as their musical advisor/producer would have steered them into a direction of being a strictly R&B act. Drop the Vegas stuff, the lighter pop stuff, etc. The ladies were totally capable of it. Transformation was needed and it could have kept them going for much longer.

[kenneth]

I think @bradsupremes' analysis is astute and interesting, and I largely agree with him. [[Of course I always find people interesting when I agree with them... .)

But seriously, I only discovered the Diane-led group after they'd split up already. I liked some of the Jean Terrell singles a great deal, and their albums as well. But as @brad mentions, the styling and gowns made them seem kind of quaint to me at the time. When the group evolved into Mary, Scherrie and Susaye [[or MS and Cindy even), they did seem to change their image to something hipper and younger.

It does seem there just wasn't enough attention made to just who their audience was or should be, whether it should continue to be the Vegas crowd or young record buyers. Of course, with Berry Gordy's attention to Diane during their prime years, this balance was achieved very skillfully. Without his personal attention, and for many other reasons of course, the group's image was scattered and floundered some.

[sup_fan]

yeah the bootlegs i have of the tours in late 72 with the Temps, their Dec 72 Apollo show and then Japan are a hot mess. there's no focus, too many random songs and show tunes, the endless 60s medleys and a real lack of their own material.

I'm surprised that by this point in their career, the girls themselves didn't have more authority on their shows. the old Artist Development program was pretty much long gone by the 70s. Berry wasn't involved so clearly he didn't care. Based on interviews and books, we know J and L wanted to shift their sound, look and approach. Was it mary that didn't want to diverge too far? was it their managers? but you're right, poor decisions and a lack of evolution [[plus motown's lack of heavy support) did them in

[sup_fan]

When the group evolved into Mary, Scherrie and Susaye [[or MS and Cindy even), they did seem to change their image to something hipper and younger.

Actually i think the MSC group was really out of touch. They were wearing these giant ballgowns that did nothing for their new disco choreography.

With Susaye, things started to get a bit better, but once mary was preg again they pulled out the older sets of gowns that had maternity versions [[the green ones, the zebra print, the huge and overwhelming jesus robes).