Mary Wilson Talks About Her Book, New Music and Motown [October 29, 1984]

[blackguy69]

Just saw this. Volume not great

[marv2]

This two months before I saw her New Year's Eve Gala concert in Detroit with Eddie Kendricks opening and David Ruffin making a surprised guest appearance. She was fine then and now!

[marv2]

This was also before they decided on a final name for the book.

[marybrewster]

We've been waiting for that HD produced album for 35 years now! Lol.

[marybrewster]

I have a Mary Wilson Fan Club newsletter that also mentions the name "Reflections" instead of "Dreamgirl".

[marv2]

We've been waiting for that HD produced album for 35 years now! Lol.

Almost as long as it has been for Diana Ross to get another hit! LOL!!!

[Roberta75]

Almost as long as it has been for Diana Ross to get another hit! LOL!!!

Oh you must have missed her 2 number one hits on the Billboard dance chart this year and her Billboard hit album "Diamond Diana' that peaked at #5 in January. Hehehehehe.

https://www.billboard.com/music/dian...s/song/1055189

[Jimi LaLumia]

and the currently charting hit "Wonderful Christmas Time" album, Top 40 on the Amazon album charts which are the ultimate charts these days based entirely on actual of the moment sales!

[marybrewster]

It is ridiculous. Desperately trying to get in any dig that it can; too bad they always backfire!

[jobeterob]

He meant to say that Mary never charted on a Pop Or R & B chart in her own name
Ever!!! Lol gasp whew tsk fart

[Roberta75]

He meant to say that Mary never charted on a Pop Or R & B chart in her own name
Ever!!! Lol gasp whew tsk fart

Mary Wilson made the top 20 Billboard dance charts a year or so ago. So lets applauded Marys achievements and not stoop to Marv Trumps level of bitter fabrications.

[midnightman]

Interesting the book was gonna be called "Reflections". That actually WOULD have been a better title!

[milven]

Mary Wilson made the top 20 Billboard dance charts a year or so ago. So lets applauded Marys achievements and not stoop to Marv Trumps level of bitter fabrications.

This is good advice Roberta. When the Supremes were active and I watched them perform either live or on TV, it was always Mary that I watched. So, perhaps she was my favorite Supreme then. But, in reality, I am a Supremes fan and like ALL of them.

But at some point, I started thinking negative things about Mary just to get even with her supposedly number one fan who constantly bashes Diana. [[But is he really a fan. Never gave a review of her at Cafe Carlyle even though he is a New Yorker. Did he even go??)

I am past that. I like all the Supremes and feel bad when any of them are bashed. So to bash one Supreme just to get even with a "fan" of another Supreme makes no sense.

I say that I am past that, and hope that I truly am. But, it is hard to resist derogatory posts about a Supreme and have on occasion responded to him, which, is actually what he is looking for and is not fair to Mary.

Reprimand me if I ever again fall to his level.

Supremes. Love 'em all

[Roberta75]

This is good advice Roberta. When the Supremes were active and I watched them perform either live or on TV, it was always Mary that I watched. So, perhaps she was my favorite Supreme then. But, in reality, I am a Supremes fan and like ALL of them.

But at some point, I started thinking negative things about Mary just to get even with her supposedly number one fan who constantly bashes Diana. [[But is he really a fan. Never gave a review of her at Cafe Carlyle even though he is a New Yorker. Did he even go??)

I am past that. I like all the Supremes and feel bad when any of them are bashed. So to bash one Supreme just to get even with a "fan" of another Supreme makes no sense.

I say that I am past that, and hope that I truly am. But, it is hard to resist derogatory posts about a Supreme and have on occasion responded to him, which, is actually what he is looking for and is not fair to Mary.

Reprimand me if I ever again fall to his level.

Supremes. Love 'em all

Hes never attended a Mary Wilson show in years but like 45 he will spin fabrications and make false promises.

i call him out when he blatantlly lies but I always try to remember my dear Milven when you lay down with a dog you get fleas.

[thanxal]

Mary Wilson made the top 20 Billboard dance charts a year or so ago. So lets applauded Marys achievements...

This is VERY good advice. It is so hard because of what Milven says here:

But at some point, I started thinking negative things about Mary just to get even with her supposedly number one fan who constantly bashes Diana.

I resisted engaging Diana's solo work for years because of all the hatred of her on this and predecessor sites. I fell into that trap and denied myself years of enjoying classics such as Baby It's Me and so many others. Then I realized how stupid these petty arguments and all the people who perpetuate them are.

It is no longer 1967. The fan disputes that arose sometime in the 60s over Flo leaving or whatever and devolved into "Diana vs. the rest", that probably intensified with her leaving the group in '70, are hardly relevant today. As in, not at all relevant. We have Motowners dying frequently. These ladies are in their sunset years. We should be enjoying them, not perpetuating silly fights they neither started, participated in, nor want anything to do with.

I personally try to simply ignore the crap from both sides. It only lives when we feed it.

[Roberta75]

This is VERY good advice. It is so hard because of what Milven says here:



I resisted engaging Diana's solo work for years because of all the hatred of her on this and predecessor sites. I fell into that trap and denied myself years of enjoying classics such as Baby It's Me and so many others. Then I realized how stupid these petty arguments and all the people who perpetuate them are.

It is no longer 1967. The fan disputes that arose sometime in the 60s over Flo leaving or whatever and devolved into "Diana vs. the rest", that probably intensified with her leaving the group in '70, are hardly relevant today. As in, not at all relevant. We have Motowners dying frequently. These ladies are in their sunset years. We should be enjoying them, not perpetuating silly fights they neither started, participated in, nor want anything to do with.

I personally try to simply ignore the crap from both sides. It only lives when we feed it.

Well stated my dear and lets face it. Mary and Diana have moved on and there grandmothers who love there kids and grandkids. Why are fans harboring resentment about stuff that may or may not have happened 30 or 40 or 50 years ago. Tearing down and trashing one Supreme to promote another only shows your real unhappy and desperate for attention imo.

Have a blessed and beautiful Sunday.

[RanRan79]

How about we stop letting He Who Shall Not Be Named become the focus of a thread about any one Supreme. Stop making him feel special. He threw his rock and ran and then stood back to see who would holler.

As for the actual video, first of all, BG thanks for posting. Second, Mary looks great. She's hardly changed over the years even still today. Gorgeous woman. I agree with Midnight that Reflections would've been a better title...on face value. But I think ultimately calling it Dreamgirl and capitalizing off of the success of the musical that capitalized off of Mary's success makes the title more iconic. It would make sense to title it after a Supremes hit song, but the term Dreamgirl really does say a lot about Mary, and Flo and Diana as well, because their story is one of the ultimates in dream come trues. Lastly, this is further evidence for my theory that Mary's lack of success after Motown had nothing to do with this ridiculous notion that she lacked talent or the ability to make anyone in the business see her as worthy enough for a solo go, and more to do with the fact that she had no real music business sense. It's 1984, nearly 1985, and Mary's talking about being produced by the Holland brothers? Are you freakin' kidding me???!!!! I will admit that I'm not well versed on the brothers post Invictus work, other than the stuff they did with the Supremes in the 70s, but I can't imagine that they had a hit on anyone since the early 70s. I'm talking about when Jean and Cindy were still singing together. So what the hell made Mary think that this would've been a lucrative move in the 80s? Had Mary and Diana had better music sense, we would've been overloaded with great music by these ex Supremes in the 1980s.

[jobeterob]

Good advice folks

[marybrewster]

How about we stop letting He Who Shall Not Be Named become the focus of a thread about any one Supreme. Stop making him feel special. He threw his rock and ran and then stood back to see who would holler.

As for the actual video, first of all, BG thanks for posting. Second, Mary looks great. She's hardly changed over the years even still today. Gorgeous woman. I agree with Midnight that Reflections would've been a better title...on face value. But I think ultimately calling it Dreamgirl and capitalizing off of the success of the musical that capitalized off of Mary's success makes the title more iconic. It would make sense to title it after a Supremes hit song, but the term Dreamgirl really does say a lot about Mary, and Flo and Diana as well, because their story is one of the ultimates in dream come trues. Lastly, this is further evidence for my theory that Mary's lack of success after Motown had nothing to do with this ridiculous notion that she lacked talent or the ability to make anyone in the business see her as worthy enough for a solo go, and more to do with the fact that she had no real music business sense. It's 1984, nearly 1985, and Mary's talking about being produced by the Holland brothers? Are you freakin' kidding me???!!!! I will admit that I'm not well versed on the brothers post Invictus work, other than the stuff they did with the Supremes in the 70s, but I can't imagine that they had a hit on anyone since the early 70s. I'm talking about when Jean and Cindy were still singing together. So what the hell made Mary think that this would've been a lucrative move in the 80s? Had Mary and Diana had better music sense, we would've been overloaded with great music by these ex Supremes in the 1980s.

Perhaps Mary thinks history can repeat itself. HDH cranked out hit after hit in the 60's and even a bit into the 70's. I'm sure Mary is accustomed to their style of work, and let's face it, they've written some lyrical masterpieces. The truth remains though that many of their songs, and hits, were written in Diana's key; certainly with her voice in mind.

Maybe HD could have another hit with Mary? I dunno. I think that boat has sailed away. But good Lord, she's been talking about working with HD since the early 80's. And again around 2000 with "Clarity". I've yet to see any fruit grown from either tree.

[reese]

Perhaps Mary thinks history can repeat itself. HDH cranked out hit after hit in the 60's and even a bit into the 70's. I'm sure Mary is accustomed to their style of work, and let's face it, they've written some lyrical masterpieces. The truth remains though that many of their songs, and hits, were written in Diana's key; certainly with her voice in mind.

Maybe HD could have another hit with Mary? I dunno. I think that boat has sailed away. But good Lord, she's been talking about working with HD since the early 80's. And again around 2000 with "Clarity". I've yet to see any fruit grown from either tree.

I gather the Holland Bros. had started doing production again in the early 80s. Around this same time, they produced some songs with Mavis Staples as well. But only one single [[LOVE GONE BAD) was released at the time. The rest weren't released for over ten years until Mavis became somewhat popular with her albums with Prince.

[midnightman]

HDH just could never get off the ground as far as label releases. Makes me wish they learned more about the business than they did. They were pretty green when they signed with Motown, most of them were.

[jobeterob]

I know this may be viewed as negative but I don’t think there was vymuch demand by producers to produce Mary; her voice just wasn’t one that suggested success so she didn’t have lots of choice

[PeaceNHarmony]

I know this may be viewed as negative but I don’t think there was vymuch demand by producers to produce Mary; her voice just wasn’t one that suggested success so she didn’t have lots of choice

It's not negative, it's the truth. Age, limited talent, and complete lack of name recognition certainly were all in the mix, and it could also be that Wilson's crash-and-burn ending of the most successful and beloved girl-group ever worked against her in the industry. And, if these were her cocaine years Wilson may have been less-than reliable.

[RanRan79]

Perhaps Mary thinks history can repeat itself. HDH cranked out hit after hit in the 60's and even a bit into the 70's. I'm sure Mary is accustomed to their style of work, and let's face it, they've written some lyrical masterpieces. The truth remains though that many of their songs, and hits, were written in Diana's key; certainly with her voice in mind.

Maybe HD could have another hit with Mary? I dunno. I think that boat has sailed away. But good Lord, she's been talking about working with HD since the early 80's. And again around 2000 with "Clarity". I've yet to see any fruit grown from either tree.

HDH were certainly capable of writing in Mary's key. But in the 80s Mary should've been looking to do something with someone with at least recent production success. That's the same problem Diana ended up having, working with folks whose big successes were behind them instead of looking to current hit makers to continue her reign at the top. Of course to some degree Diana could get away with these missteps because her legendary status apart from the Supremes was firmly set. Mary didn't have a lot of years to establish hers and wasting time on the Hollands would've been a bad move.

Of course this could've also been one of Mary's standard answers to the question of "what are you working on now or in the future" that ultimately had no real basis in fact. This was a part of her Motown training.

[sup_fan]

outside of the minor hits they got with the 70s Supremes, post-Invictus, what did the Hollands do? were they involved with other artists? did they have some quality releases that just didn't make big news?

[reese]

outside of the minor hits they got with the 70s Supremes, post-Invictus, what did the Hollands do? were they involved with other artists? did they have some quality releases that just didn't make big news?

Besides the Supremes, they did some 70s work with Michael Jackson, the Jackson 5, the Tempts, and Diana as well. I think a few of these did well on the R&B chart but didn't cross over. I liked their productions of JUST A LITTLE BIT OF YOU on Michael, and the remake of FOREVER CAME TODAY on the Jackson 5. Diana's WE CAN NEVER LIGHT THAT OLD FLAME AGAIN and FIRE DON'T BURN were good as well.

They also produced Dionne's JUST BEING MYSELF album in 1973.

Their circa 1984 productions on Mavis Staples were good as well. But as I wrote above, most of those went unreleased for years.

[marybrewster]

Do you suppose any of Mavis's 1984 work with HD could have been intended [[or suited) for Mary?

[motownlover1964]

It was through this board that I read about "Fire Don't Burn" and found it on YouTube. Man, I love this song. It's quintessential HDH and she rocks it from beginning to end. I so appreciate this board for information that I'd never find.

[sup_fan]

yeah i looked Eddie up on wikipedia and it really didn't have anything of significance past the mid/late 70s stuff with motown. so by 84 or 85, i seriously doubt that the combination of Mary Wilson and the Holland bros would have amounted to much. neither was a current or strong contemporary presence. if they had gone into the studios to do anything, i fear it would have been along the lines of what the various motown artists did on Ian Levine's label.

Wonder if Mary might have been better off skipping the Vegas and NYC scenes and trying Memphis or NOLA. maybe if she'd shifted into more of the blues arena, she would have been able to establish herself in a genre more her forte.

[jobeterob]

I wonder why HDH fizzled so bad; weren't they behind Give Me Just A Little More Time and Band of Gold?

It seems like times changed and their golden era ended.

[reese]

Do you suppose any of Mavis's 1984 work with HD could have been intended [[or suited) for Mary?

I couldn't say. A couple of the songs were written by Carolyn Franklin, who was a close friend of Mavis'. So I assume those at least were earmarked for her.

[TomatoTom123]

In the mid-80s the Holland Brothers worked on ex-Undisputed Truth singer Vee McDonald's Heavy Traffic Starring V album: https://www.discogs.com/Heavy-Traffi.../master/413314

They also did two singles with ex-Motown group Three Ounces Of Love [[renamed as Lipstick): https://www.discogs.com/Lipstick-Rai.../master/217130

These singles [[and a few others by other acts) came out on the brother's Music Merchant label, which I guess they revived at the time.

[TomatoTom123]

I can her Mary singing this one.



Ooh that's a nice song.

[TheMotownManiac]

I liked a lot of what HDH did with The Ross-less Supremes and whatever magic they once had seemed to have faded - it happens to a lot of folks.

As as far as Mary is concerned, her voice is not one with any type of commercial appeal, so putting time and effort into a singer with weak vocal potential, not great vocal style and no stage presentation per se’, was a long shot. She didn’t have anything fresh or original to bring to the table like Tina, Madonna, Whitney, Lauper etc that would compel audiences.

This certainly was in Mary’s cocaine haze years, but I don’t know of anyone deeming her unreliable other than probably her usual, blatant tardiness which continues to thus very day.
i don’t know if her antics at Motown 25 hurt her solo career efforts or not - but they certainly didn’t help them. Going onstage all coked up, full of the grape and causing a scene at a very high profile televised event might not be considered reliable.....I don’t know.

[RanRan79]

Besides the Supremes, they did some 70s work with Michael Jackson, the Jackson 5, the Tempts, and Diana as well. I think a few of these did well on the R&B chart but didn't cross over. I liked their productions of JUST A LITTLE BIT OF YOU on Michael, and the remake of FOREVER CAME TODAY on the Jackson 5. Diana's WE CAN NEVER LIGHT THAT OLD FLAME AGAIN and FIRE DON'T BURN were good as well.

They also produced Dionne's JUST BEING MYSELF album in 1973.

Their circa 1984 productions on Mavis Staples were good as well. But as I wrote above, most of those went unreleased for years.

Reese I didn't know they did all of that [[except the Diana cuts, which I learned from this forum over the last year because I don't always pay attention to writing credits on reissues). Thanks for the info.

[RanRan79]

In the mid-80s the Holland Brothers worked on ex-Undisputed Truth singer Vee McDonald's Heavy Traffic Starring V album: https://www.discogs.com/Heavy-Traffi.../master/413314

They also did two singles with ex-Motown group Three Ounces Of Love [[renamed as Lipstick): https://www.discogs.com/Lipstick-Rai.../master/217130

These singles [[and a few others by other acts) came out on the brother's Music Merchant label, which I guess they revived at the time.

Thanks for the info Tom. I had no idea the brothers were still writing and producing and even revived Merchant in the 1980s. Why is there no HDH documentary???

[RanRan79]

I can her Mary singing this one.



Ooh that's a nice song.

I didn't think I would like this at first, but it's actually quite nice. And I could hear Mary singing this [[and posing for that cover!), but Vee or Mary, this was not going to go very far on Merchant. What kind of promotional budget did a label like Merchant have?

[johnny_raven]

I didn't think I would like this at first, but it's actually quite nice. And I could hear Mary singing this [[and posing for that cover!), but Vee or Mary, this was not going to go very far on Merchant. What kind of promotional budget did a label like Merchant have?

This album was released on Atlantic.

[RanRan79]

This album was released on Atlantic.

Thanks Johnny. Atlantic could've gotten the job done.

Does Mary have an online presence where she interacts with the fans at all? I'm dying to know what were the particulars with her connection to Atlantic in the 80s. We have the four demos she did there but there's nothing in her book about the situation and no one in the forum seems to have any inside information [[that I trust), so I'd love to pose her the question and see what I get.

[TomatoTom123]

Thanks for the info Tom. I had no idea the brothers were still writing and producing and even revived Merchant in the 1980s. Why is there no HDH documentary???

I know Ran, I guess all of their 80s work just really went unnoticed. Before that they produced half of The Four Tops' 1983 Motown album Back Where I Belong, but no one really knows about that either. But, the Holland Brothers working with Mary at the time is definitely within the realms of possibility.

[TomatoTom123]

I didn't think I would like this at first, but it's actually quite nice. And I could hear Mary singing this [[and posing for that cover!), but Vee or Mary, this was not going to go very far on Merchant. What kind of promotional budget did a label like Merchant have?

Well, Ran, the whole album is pretty good. And, crucially, it's contemporary sounding, not Ian Levine-style stuff, as sup [[prob with good reason) feared. Don't know if any of it could or would have been a mega hit for Mary [[it wasn't for Vee), even on Atlantic.

[TomatoTom123]

Even Norman Whitfield produced a track, and it is FONKY



Spot the two throwback Motown references.

[Circa 1824]

I wonder why HDH fizzled so bad;

This is what happens when fools forget what make them stars to begin with. Both Ross and HDH believed they were too big to fail after leaving Berry and the Motown machine. I can only imagine what awesome classics we would have today if both had corrected their delusions and stayed put at Motown.

[Circa 1824]

As as far as Mary is concerned, her voice is not one with any type of commercial appeal, so putting time and effort into a singer with weak vocal potential, not great vocal style and no stage presentation per se’, was a long shot.

This certainly was in Mary’s cocaine haze years, but I don’t know of anyone deeming her unreliable other than probably her usual, blatant tardiness which continues to thus very day.
i don’t know if her antics at Motown 25 hurt her solo career efforts or not - but they certainly didn’t help them. Going onstage all coked up, full of the grape and causing a scene at a very high profile televised event might not be considered reliable.....

Dear sweet crazy untalented Mary .......

[Roberta75]

This is what happens when fools forget what make them stars to begin with. Both Ross and HDH believed they were too big to fail after leaving Berry and the Motown machine. I can only imagine what awesome classics we would have today if both had corrected their delusions and stayed put at Motown.

Leaving Motown for 20 million dollars is hardly delusional. It was a real smart business decision or Rosses part.

[vgalindo]

Leaving Motown for 20 million dollars is hardly delusional. It was a real smart business decision or Rosses part.

Yes Roberta. Probably the best decision she ever made. At that time it was the biggest recording contract ever.

[TheMotownManiac]

This is what happens when fools forget what make them stars to begin with. Both Ross and HDH believed they were too big to fail after leaving Berry and the Motown machine. I can only imagine what awesome classics we would have today if both had corrected their delusions and stayed put at Motown.

Ross worked like a dog for 20 years with very little in the bank. Hit movies, untold millions of records sold, thousands of sold out concerts, dozens of tv shows and a pittance, comparatively, to pocket it for it. Additionally, she had to deal with the realization that Berry and Motown had raided her purse shamelessly. That breach of trust had to hurt deeply. On top of that, Ross also knew the days of hit after hit she experienced in the 60s were a history making anomaly- unlikely to repeat itself. Of al,her peers, only Stevie was a fairly consistent hit maker. She was out if the top ten for four years before Upside Down. Yes, she was a top concert draw, but had little to show for that. Marvin was broke. Dennis Edwards hadn’t funds to go to the dentist. Many of her peers were near broke. What was her future? Take TWENTY MILLION DOLLARS and a chance Of ruined career, or more of the same? I think she did the practical, wise thing. I don’t see it as delusional at all. However her career went, she was set for life - how wonderful to be in that position! She could work as she pleased without worry of cost vs success. Peace of mind us worth all the gold records in the world and, as it turned out, she turned that 20 plus million into a vast fortune more than ten times that sum.

Best decision she ever made.

[jobeterob]

Ross worked like a dog for 20 years with very little in the bank. Hit movies, untold millions of records sold, thousands of sold out concerts, dozens of tv shows and a pittance, comparatively, to pocket it for it. Additionally, she had to deal with the realization that Berry and Motown had raided her purse shamelessly. That breach of trust had to hurt deeply. On top of that, Ross also knew the days of hit after hit she experienced in the 60s were a history making anomaly- unlikely to repeat itself. Of al,her peers, only Stevie was a fairly consistent hit maker. She was out if the top ten for four years before Upside Down. Yes, she was a top concert draw, but had little to show for that. Marvin was broke. Dennis Edwards hadn’t funds to go to the dentist. Many of her peers were near broke. What was her future? Take TWENTY MILLION DOLLARS and a chance Of ruined career, or more of the same? I think she did the practical, wise thing. I don’t see it as delusional at all. However her career went, she was set for life - how wonderful to be in that position! She could work as she pleased without worry of cost vs success. Peace of mind us worth all the gold records in the world and, as it turned out, she turned that 20 plus million into a vast fortune more than ten times that sum.

Best decision she ever made.

I know it was 40 years ago, but she did leave Motown with surprisingly little; didn’t she say she had only about $200000 when she left?

So wasn’t leaving Motown the best thing she’d ever done?

And she did turn it into a fortune.

Do you think they paid for all those white clothes they wore in the parade?

[TheMotownManiac]

200k In 81 is 500k today - a lot but not enough.

Yes, I think it’s the smartest thing she ever did. I’m not wild about a lot of RCA product, but love some, and, to ensure financial viability, nothing else would matter to me for my kids.

Today, she is loaded 200-300 million with some saying that’s conservative.....at that point, who cares? I just saw her in Vegas. She’s deliriously happy on stage and doing life on her own terms. Yes, I think it’s the best decision she’s made.

im guessing NBC and/or Hallmark paid for the white clothes.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Leaving Motown for 20 million dollars is hardly delusional. It was a real smart business decision or Rosses part.

Absolutely, Ms. Roberta, and even without the major $ leaving Motown was the right thing for Diana to do at the time. The company was on its last gasping breath and a change was needed. Best wishes to you in this holiday season!