Merry Clayton talks about someday we’ll be together

[blackguy69]

[marv2]

Yeah, I remember reading an interview with Merry Clayton way back in the 70s when she mentions she sang on Someday We'll be Together.

[marv2]

Interesting how many different versions of the story of the recording of this song has been told. One version has Julia and Maxine Waters along with Merry Clayton as the background singers with Johnny Bristol. Johnny Bristol could not remember if the Supremes were on it or not. Cindy Birdsong said that they were suppose to record it, but had to leave town early the next day and it was recorded using session singers.

Ironically, in 1977 Merry Clayton audition for being one of Mary Wilson's background singers. Mary told her she was too good and should concentrate on a solo career. She chose Karen Jackson and Kaaren Ragland instead.

[khansperac]

I don’t like how she implies that the Supremes were like Milli Vanilli on this record. She should have just stated that the background voices were session singers and left it at that. It leads some to believe that they were all faking when that is not the case.

[RanRan79]

She has a very interesting way of telling it. The Waters are supposed to be on background and only within the last year or so did I learn that Merry was with them. I don't buy for a moment that it was all the folks she mentioned, especially Brenda Holloway. I never thought about what it might have been like to go into a recording studio and lay vocals on what you believe will be a song for a single artist only to discover than an entire group is laying claim to your work. The Andantes knew what was up because they had been doing that for years, but the ones on "Someday" probably had no clue and I can imagine they might have been pissed about their vocals being attributed to Mary and Cindy. Milli Vanilli perhaps, but maybe more akin to C&C Music Factory and Martha Wash situation.

[reese]

She has a very interesting way of telling it. The Waters are supposed to be on background and only within the last year or so did I learn that Merry was with them. I don't buy for a moment that it was all the folks she mentioned, especially Brenda Holloway. I never thought about what it might have been like to go into a recording studio and lay vocals on what you believe will be a song for a single artist only to discover than an entire group is laying claim to your work. The Andantes knew what was up because they had been doing that for years, but the ones on "Someday" probably had no clue and I can imagine they might have been pissed about their vocals being attributed to Mary and Cindy. Milli Vanilli perhaps, but maybe more akin to C&C Music Factory and Martha Wash situation.

Originally the track [[vocals and all) was meant for Jr. Walker so that probably would have just been another average session for the ladies. But after it was released by the Supremes, yeah, I could see the background singers being somewhat miffed. Especially after Mary and Cindy lipsynced to it on both THE HOLLYWOOD PALACE and ED SULLIVAN.

[luke]

Well they were hired to sing background and they sang background. They didn’t typically get billing in those days. And later a line on an album cover.

[Boogiedown]

crediting SOMEDAY to The Supremes is the same as crediting LOVE HANGOVER to The Supremes .

[marv2]

crediting SOMEDAY to The Supremes is the same as crediting LOVE HANGOVER to The Supremes .

Well, people credit "Ain''t No Mountain High Enough" to the Supremes. I've even seen where someone labeled "Stoned Love" by "Diana Ross & the Supremes". Go figure.

[Boogiedown]

Well, people credit "Ain''t No Mountain High Enough" to the Supremes. I've even seen where someone labeled "Stoned Love" by "Diana Ross & the Supremes". Go figure.

but not by Motown proper.

[sup_fan]

crediting SOMEDAY to The Supremes is the same as crediting LOVE HANGOVER to The Supremes .

no it really isn't quite the same. while i agree it's unfortunate that motown used other singers on recordings, the recording process is only one piece of the pie. promotion can be argued as being almost more important - look at the high quality songs the supremes sang on in the 70s that went nowhere. M and C learned the routines, sang the song on tv and in concerts. so their role isn't entirely 0 with this as it is with Love Hangover

[marv2]

no it really isn't quite the same. while i agree it's unfortunate that motown used other singers on recordings, the recording process is only one piece of the pie. promotion can be argued as being almost more important - look at the high quality songs the supremes sang on in the 70s that went nowhere. M and C learned the routines, sang the song on tv and in concerts. so their role isn't entirely 0 with this as it is with Love Hangover

You also have to admit that these songs and recordings are so old now, that it is easy for younger people to get confused by who is singing what on what record.

[marv2]

but not by Motown proper.

No just by 30 and 40 something year old oldies DJ's and people that upload videos to places like Youtube.

[marv2]

but not by Motown proper.

I do remember a collection or two put out by Motown that included some 70s recordings and they titled the album "Diana Ross & the Supremes".

[Boogiedown]

no it really isn't quite the same. while i agree it's unfortunate that motown used other singers on recordings, the recording process is only one piece of the pie. promotion can be argued as being almost more important - look at the high quality songs the supremes sang on in the 70s that went nowhere. M and C learned the routines, sang the song on tv and in concerts. so their role isn't entirely 0 with this as it is with Love Hangover

interesting take. Do you think the record should list the song as being by Diana Ross and The Supremes??

[luke]

And wasnt it Diana, Nick. Joshie and Valerie and maybe more on ANMHE?

[Jimi LaLumia]

I bought a Motown cassette album of either "Touch" or "New Ways.." and the spine title said DR&TS

[sup_fan]

interesting take. Do you think the record should list the song as being by Diana Ross and The Supremes??

i believe that, technically, motown had the right to utilize any singers as members of the group. none of the Four Tops recordings are listed as "Four Tops and Andantes" and there were plenty of times it was more than just DMF and/or C.

I agree that it's not really the most appropriate thing to just swap out singers with session artists. it seems to be something that primarily impacted the female groups. smokey never recorded any of the Miracles tracks with just him and, say, The Originals on backing vocals. And Levi was never backed up by the Temps or Elgins. yet the Sups, Marvelettes, Vandellas and [[i'm assuming) the Velvelettes all were routinely replaced. perhaps it's really just a bit of the sexism/chauvinism at motown

[marv2]

i believe that, technically, motown had the right to utilize any singers as members of the group. none of the Four Tops recordings are listed as "Four Tops and Andantes" and there were plenty of times it was more than just DMF and/or C.

I agree that it's not really the most appropriate thing to just swap out singers with session artists. it seems to be something that primarily impacted the female groups. smokey never recorded any of the Miracles tracks with just him and, say, The Originals on backing vocals. And Levi was never backed up by the Temps or Elgins. yet the Sups, Marvelettes, Vandellas and [[i'm assuming) the Velvelettes all were routinely replaced. perhaps it's really just a bit of the sexism/chauvinism at motown

I am sorry, but no, Motown did not have the right to utilize any singers as members of the group especially in the case of the Supremes. It was spelled out specifically in their contracts that the company, Motown could not replace any group member on recordings or in live performance if the singer was willing and able to perform. This is what got Motown in trouble when Mary Wilson sued them in 1977-78. This is how we first heard that Mary and Cindy were not on the recordings of "Love Child" and "Someday, We'll Be Together" among other late 60s recordings.

[TomatoTom123]

i believe that, technically, motown had the right to utilize any singers as members of the group. none of the Four Tops recordings are listed as "Four Tops and Andantes" and there were plenty of times it was more than just DMF and/or C.

I agree that it's not really the most appropriate thing to just swap out singers with session artists. it seems to be something that primarily impacted the female groups. smokey never recorded any of the Miracles tracks with just him and, say, The Originals on backing vocals. And Levi was never backed up by the Temps or Elgins. yet the Sups, Marvelettes, Vandellas and [[i'm assuming) the Velvelettes all were routinely replaced. perhaps it's really just a bit of the sexism/chauvinism at motown

Yeah, interesting observation sup. The only instance of it happening to a male group I can think of is with Bobby Taylor & The Vancouvers [[using The Originals), but I think by that time Bobby was already solo, or at least marketed as solo. Didn't ever happen to The Tops, don't think it ever happened to The Fantastic Four or The Spinners. Nor mixed groups like Gladys & The Pips and The Monitors. Maybe because The Andantes were so profilic and readily available it was just convenient for them to be used to do backing vocals for female groups, however wrong it was.

In a way it's kind of odd that it happened to Motown's highest profile act. If anyone was going to notice that Motown had done such a thing, it would have been on a Supremes #1 record. Guess they just didn't really care.

[TomatoTom123]

Originally the track [[vocals and all) was meant for Jr. Walker so that probably would have just been another average session for the ladies. But after it was released by the Supremes, yeah, I could see the background singers being somewhat miffed. Especially after Mary and Cindy lipsynced to it on both THE HOLLYWOOD PALACE and ED SULLIVAN.

Whenever I hear the intro, I always think it's a late 60s/early 70s Junior Walker track produced by Johnny Bristol. I can definitely hear Junior singing it. In fact I wish he had recorded it.

Makes a lot more sense why The Waters and Merry wouldn't have thought much of doing backing vocals at the time.

[BritishTony]

1. EVERY company was bolstering their groups withadditional voices: Spector, Beach Boys, Monkees, Ike & Tina [[with even Ike’svoice subbed by Mickey Baker), Rolling Stones [[even the Beatles backed them),hell even the Beatles were augmented by Billy Preston, Jane Asher, NeilAspinall.

2. Irrespective of who helped in studio those Supremesgirls sang all those hits superbly live at The Talk Of The Town, Copacabana, 20Grand, Fox, Frontier etc. Give them their dues.

[milven]

I am sorry, but no, Motown did not have the right to utilize any singers as members of the group especially in the case of the Supremes. It was spelled out specifically in their contracts that the company, Motown could not replace any group member on recordings or in live performance if the singer was willing and able to perform. This is what got Motown in trouble when Mary Wilson sued them in 1977-78. This is how we first heard that Mary and Cindy were not on the recordings of "Love Child" and "Someday, We'll Be Together" among other late 60s recordings.

This afternoon, I was watching a video on YouTube where Mary said that she told Barry that she was too exausted to do the Love Child sessions and was going on vacation. Mary said that she was disapointed when she came back and found that the sessions were recorded. So in that instance, she was able to work, but not willing.

In the case of Someday, I have always heard that was a Diana solo and so Cindy and Mary were not meant to be on that record, and they weren't. However, when it was released as a Supremes record, Mary got royalties from it as well as Love Child, and coninues to get royalites.

Not being sarcastic, but it sounds like she was suing Motown for paying her for being on those records even though she wasn't. Why was she suing Motown in 77-78?

[marv2]

This afternoon, I was watching a video on YouTube where Mary said that she told Barry that she was too exausted to do the Love Child sessions and was going on vacation. Mary said that she was disapointed when she came back and found that the sessions were recorded. So in that instance, she was able to work, but not willing.

In the case of Someday, I have always heard that was a Diana solo and so Cindy and Mary were not meant to be on that record, and they weren't. However, when it was released as a Supremes record, Mary got royalties from it as well as Love Child, and coninues to get royalites.

Not being sarcastic, but it sounds like she was suing Motown for paying her for being on those records even though she wasn't. Why was she suing Motown in 77-78?

No, you completely do not understand. She sued for breach of contract and violating child labor laws since they had signed her at age 16 and without legal representation. I could say why she was suing them in 1977-78, but you are going to have to ask her. I am not authorized to say.

[milven]

No, you completely do not understand. She sued for breach of contract and violating child labor laws since they had signed her at age 16 and without legal representation. I could say why she was suing them in 1977-78, but you are going to have to ask her. I am not authorized to say.

interesting reply to my question. To paraphrase your post, you said she sued them in 77-78, but if I want to know why, I have to ask her since you are not authorized to say.

If she sued them, it would be public record. But, rather than drag it on, I will simply let it go.

[Boogiedown]

1. EVERY company was bolstering their groups withadditional voices:............................

Bolstering groups with additional voices and implying there are performers on a record who aren't are two different things.

[bradsupremes]

Yeah, interesting observation sup. The only instance of it happening to a male group I can think of is with Bobby Taylor & The Vancouvers [[using The Originals), but I think by that time Bobby was already solo, or at least marketed as solo. Didn't ever happen to The Tops, don't think it ever happened to The Fantastic Four or The Spinners.

I can think of only a handful of instances...

"Can't Stop This Feeling" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Originals/Andantes)
"Just Another Lonely Night" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Temptations/Andantes)
"Love Woke Me Up This Morning" - The Temptations [[Damon Harris & the Andantes/Originals)

[marv2]

interesting reply to my question. To paraphrase your post, you said she sued them in 77-78, but if I want to know why, I have to ask her since you are not authorized to say.

If she sued them, it would be public record. But, rather than drag it on, I will simply let it go.

Yeah, let it go....

[marv2]

I can think of only a handful of instances...

"Can't Stop This Feeling" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Originals/Andantes)
"Just Another Lonely Night" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Temptations/Andantes)
"Love Woke Me Up This Morning" - The Temptations [[Damon Harris & the Andantes/Originals)

Almost the whole "Wings of Love " album by the Temptation have just Dennis Edwards back by session singers.

[marybrewster]

If the sound doesn't change, does it matter in the name? The DRATS "SOMEDAY" was heavy on Andantes. But so was Diana's solo "AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN".

[marv2]

If the sound doesn't change, does it matter in the name? The DRATS "SOMEDAY" was heavy on Andantes. But so was Diana's solo "AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN".

The Andantes were not on either of those records.

[marv2]

Does anyone know for sure who are doing the backing vocals on Diana Ross' "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". I hear Johnny Bristol.

[marybrewster]

The Andantes were not on either of those records.

Precisely my point. Did it matter WHO was on the background if the backgrounds are so prominent? Label it as a DRATS record. Label it as a Diana solo. The sound is the same.

[marybrewster]

Does anyone know for sure who are doing the backing vocals on Diana Ross' "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". I hear Johnny Bristol.

Mary claims in "Dreamgirl" she was present for this recording. If she wasn't there for "Someday" it's unlikely she was there for this.

[RanRan79]

If the sound doesn't change, does it matter in the name? The DRATS "SOMEDAY" was heavy on Andantes. But so was Diana's solo "AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN".

For the record, the Andantes were not on those songs. But in answer to your question: to the listener it probably doesn't make much- if any- difference, and it shouldn't, but to the singers I can understand it being an issue. Like I said before, I've never given any thought to the situation from the backing vocalist perspective. I think there's a tendency to do to professional background singers what is sometimes done to members of a group who mostly perform in the capacity of backing vocalist: they're dispensable and their thoughts and feelings don't matter. Show up and sing, seems to be a common thought about anyone who isn't the lead singer [[solo or group). So from a backing vocalist perspective, depending on what was discussed beforehand, if you think when going into the studio to record background work that the work will be used on a soloist only to find that there are women and men- famous women and men, at that- getting credit for your work, you might feel some type a way about it. I probably would. As Luke pointed out, it wasn't customary at the time to give printed credit to backing vocalists the way it would later on, so the general public rarely knew who the Andantes or Waters or Sweet Inspirations were. But within the industry these names were floating around and that's how they were making their living because producers knew who to call on and they knew the work that they did. It has to suck to not be able to claim your work on a million selling number one hit like "Someday We'll Be Together". It's all water under the bridge now of course, but I understand any negative feelings anyone might have had at the time about it.

[RanRan79]

Mary claims in "Dreamgirl" she was present for this recording. If she wasn't there for "Someday" it's unlikely she was there for this.

I don't remember "These Things" being discussed in Dreamgirl. I'll have to look for it.

[bradsupremes]

Johnny Bristol is singing background vocals on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You." I wouldn't be surprised if the same ladies on "Someday" are the same on "These Things."

In fact, "These Things" was cut in November 1969 for the Supremes. Listen to the guitar licks - they are the same as "Someday." The thinking was probably the first single for the Supremes without Diana should sound like their last single with her. It was later reassigned to Diana with the similar thought process. Ultimately it was dropped in favor of "Reach Out And Touch [[Somebody's Hand)" as her first solo single. The question is...did Jean put down a vocal on "These Things?" It'd be fun to find out.

[Bluebrock]

interesting reply to my question. To paraphrase your post, you said she sued them in 77-78, but if I want to know why, I have to ask her since you are not authorized to say.

If she sued them, it would be public record. But, rather than drag it on, I will simply let it go.

Wise move. I neither know or care why she sued Motown in 77-78 but it shouldn't be too difficult to find out if you are at all curious. You can easily bypass Marv with all his ridiculous cloak and dagger stuff. Good luck.

[TomatoTom123]

I can think of only a handful of instances...

"Can't Stop This Feeling" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Originals/Andantes)
"Just Another Lonely Night" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Temptations/Andantes)
"Love Woke Me Up This Morning" - The Temptations [[Damon Harris & the Andantes/Originals)

So there were a few! Thanks brad

[sup_fan]

For the record, the Andantes were not on those songs. But in answer to your question: to the listener it probably doesn't make much- if any- difference, and it shouldn't, but to the singers I can understand it being an issue. Like I said before, I've never given any thought to the situation from the backing vocalist perspective. I think there's a tendency to do to professional background singers what is sometimes done to members of a group who mostly perform in the capacity of backing vocalist: they're dispensable and their thoughts and feelings don't matter. Show up and sing, seems to be a common thought about anyone who isn't the lead singer [[solo or group). So from a backing vocalist perspective, depending on what was discussed beforehand, if you think when going into the studio to record background work that the work will be used on a soloist only to find that there are women and men- famous women and men, at that- getting credit for your work, you might feel some type a way about it. I probably would. As Luke pointed out, it wasn't customary at the time to give printed credit to backing vocalists the way it would later on, so the general public rarely knew who the Andantes or Waters or Sweet Inspirations were. But within the industry these names were floating around and that's how they were making their living because producers knew who to call on and they knew the work that they did. It has to suck to not be able to claim your work on a million selling number one hit like "Someday We'll Be Together". It's all water under the bridge now of course, but I understand any negative feelings anyone might have had at the time about it.

very well said

at least in theory, the Supremes and DRATS were supposed to be GROUPS and as such the direction and accomplishment of the groups should be a matter of group decision. of course we know things had declined by 69 so they girls were most certainly operating as a group any longer.

[sup_fan]

Mary claims in "Dreamgirl" she was present for this recording. If she wasn't there for "Someday" it's unlikely she was there for this.

there's a lot of erroneous information in Mary's chronology. my impression is that she received some of the session information but her dates mostly seem to line up with when the tracks were cut, not when the group added vocals.

[marv2]

Johnny Bristol is singing background vocals on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You." I wouldn't be surprised if the same ladies on "Someday" are the same on "These Things."

In fact, "These Things" was cut in November 1969 for the Supremes. Listen to the guitar licks - they are the same as "Someday." The thinking was probably the first single for the Supremes without Diana should sound like their last single with her. It was later reassigned to Diana with the similar thought process. Ultimately it was dropped in favor of "Reach Out And Touch [[Somebody's Hand)" as her first solo single. The question is...did Jean put down a vocal on "These Things?" It'd be fun to find out.

That does sound interesting. Taking things a step further, the background vocals on "Reach Out and Touch Somebody's Hand" always sounded like the Supremes [[Mary Wilson, etc) to me.

[marv2]

Precisely my point. Did it matter WHO was on the background if the backgrounds are so prominent? Label it as a DRATS record. Label it as a Diana solo. The sound is the same.

I cannot honestly say that because on all of the original Supremes hit records, the background vocals made a difference. The distinct vocals of Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson, along with Diana Ross made the records appealing in ways that are tough to describe. For instance, Motown could have released "Where Did Our Love Go?", Come See About Me", etc with other singers in the background, but it would not sound like the records everyone came to love.

[marv2]

Mary claims in "Dreamgirl" she was present for this recording. If she wasn't there for "Someday" it's unlikely she was there for this.

Why? Were they recorded on the same day? Johnny said in 2003 [[I can't find interview right now....), that he recorded the Supremes. He got confused and said that he thought he had them in the studio when recording "Someday....". This other record "These Things Will Keep Me...." sounds very similar especially with his ad-libs included. Cindy Birdsong has said that the reason they did not record "Someday....", is because they were on their way out of town at the time. Poor scheduling was the reason for things turning out the way they did.

[sup_fan]

I cannot honestly say that because on all of the original Supremes hit records, the background vocals made a difference. The distinct vocals of Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson, along with Diana Ross made the records appealing in ways that are tough to describe. For instance, Motown could have released "Where Did Our Love Go?", Come See About Me", etc with other singers in the background, but it would not sound like the records everyone came to love.

i agree that M and F had distinctive voices and their sound was significant to the development of the group and their initial hits. unfortunately as the hits came along, their role was reduced as people became more trained on just Diana's voice. but on songs like Baby Love, Come See, Back in my arms again, M and F play very large parts in the record and sound

[RanRan79]

Johnny Bristol is singing background vocals on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You." I wouldn't be surprised if the same ladies on "Someday" are the same on "These Things."

In fact, "These Things" was cut in November 1969 for the Supremes. Listen to the guitar licks - they are the same as "Someday." The thinking was probably the first single for the Supremes without Diana should sound like their last single with her. It was later reassigned to Diana with the similar thought process. Ultimately it was dropped in favor of "Reach Out And Touch [[Somebody's Hand)" as her first solo single. The question is...did Jean put down a vocal on "These Things?" It'd be fun to find out.

I was under the impression that both songs were cut during the same session.

[sup_fan]

Why? Were they recorded on the same day? Johnny said in 2003 [[I can't find interview right now....), that he recorded the Supremes. He got confused and said that he thought he had them in the studio when recording "Someday....". This other record "These Things Will Keep Me...." sounds very similar especially with his ad-libs included. Cindy Birdsong has said that the reason they did not recorded "Someday....", is because they were on their way out of town at the time. Poor scheduling was the reason for things turning out the way they did.

other than mary's date in her chronology, i don't have any other recording info on These Things. in the small booklet that came with the Diana Ross 1970 album reissue in the early 2000s, they didn't go into any details about the recording dates and sessions. And there's been little on Someday other than it was recorded June 16. no other dates are known. so don't know if that was when the initial backing track was recorded, when string were added, when lead or backgrounds were added, etc.

[jobeterob]

When you have someone famous, everyone has their take on how they were involved.

Merry Clayton is pretty hard on Bristol and the Supremes.

[marv2]

i agree that M and F had distinctive voices and their sound was significant to the development of the group and their initial hits. unfortunately as the hits came along, their role was reduced as people became more trained on just Diana's voice. but on songs like Baby Love, Come See, Back in my arms again, M and F play very large parts in the record and sound

That was done on purpose by Mr. Gordy. He directed the background vocals to be turned down on the recordings.......

[PeaceNHarmony]

When you have someone famous, everyone has their take on how they were involved.

Merry Clayton is pretty hard on Bristol and the Supremes.

Clayton surely represents herself in a less-than-admirable light. Diana sings 'Someday' like an angel and no one could ever top her version. Others [[like Merry herself, perhaps) would have done a screamin' - hollerin' - squallin' reading of the song but Diana [[as Bristol says) 'sang it pretty' and we love her for it. It's sad that so many also-rans retain bitterness at the fact of others' successes for decades but we have to accept that. I wish Merry Clayton well, hope she is able to cope with her health, thank her for her wonderful vocals through the years, and I don't hold her own grudges against her.