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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Due to me? You mean due to you and your buddies. I always support and honor Mary. If there is any crapping done in a Mary Wilson thread it's by you because you cannot stand that I do not like Diana Ross at all!
    And just to put a balance on this situation it could also be true to say that you cannot stand that some people do not like Mary Wilson at all! It works both ways.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    And just to put a balance on this situation it could also be true to say that you cannot stand that some people do not like Mary Wilson at all! It works both ways.
    No, that would not be accurate or truthful. I do not care at all if you cannot stand Mary or not. It's your preference. I don't like Diane..ever!

  3. #53
    K, guys, we're having a great discussion, don't mess it up lol...

    I should be a mod here LOL

    I'm watching y'all...


  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    Sounds believable. And there was the other time when she couldn't come to terms and also wound up with nothing.
    I don't believe anyone is buying that Mary talked to a bunch of labels and couldn't come to terms. If anything, that scenario makes Mary look bad. It makes her look like an idiot who couldn't figure out how to negotiate a deal. And let's not kid ourselves, love her as we do, but this is Mary Wilson, not Diana Ross. What the hell was there for her to negotiate? Unless every contract had crazy stipulations like Mary had to sign over her first born or she had to undergo medicinal experiments or she had to perform a concert on the moon, there really was nothing for her to turn down. If the label was going to pay her and help her put out an album, what was the problem?

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Something tells me Mary's confidence wasn't so high even when she released Dreamgirl because the music industry had changed so much from when she was 16. Now she was 42. Time was definitely running out but she could've went into a freestyle/R&B/urban contemporary sound similar to Vanessa Williams and Mel'isa Morgan that year. She had the look and voice for it, just needed a label and the sound so she could finally be MARY WILSON, you know? Instead of "oh that's just Diana Ross' singing partner". Even Florence Ballard post-mortem has been seen as FLORENCE BALLARD, the group's founder. Mary, however, "oh just a background singer" to the mainstream. That has to suck because she was more capable than that, way more.
    Definitely agree on how the public views each Supreme. I don't know if I buy that her confidence around Dreamgirl was still low. When she performs during that time, I don't see or hear a woman who second guesses her abilities. I think at that point she had tunnel vision. She did the book, it was a phenomenal success, but I don't think she really thought about how to parlay that success into a music career. I bet you that once the first book hit, she immediately started thinking about the second book. And of course the second book was definitely a good move, but again, what about the music? Just seems like missed opportunities to me.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    I doubt Mary is bothered these days. She feels satisfied with where her legacy is at. She's a Rock and Roll Hall of Famer. That's enough for her.
    I agree. She's a grandmother now and, like Diana, she's at a point in her life when there's no crying over spilled milk. Mary has done more than most of her peers in the industry, and for far longer too. We fans probably make more of these kinds of things than the artists do at this point.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    K, guys, we're having a great discussion, don't mess it up lol...

    I should be a mod here LOL

    I'm watching y'all...

    You and that gif!! You gotta do one of Florence.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    You and that gif!! You gotta do one of Florence.
    Haha, I got a good Flo gif from this too.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Definitely agree on how the public views each Supreme. I don't know if I buy that her confidence around Dreamgirl was still low. When she performs during that time, I don't see or hear a woman who second guesses her abilities. I think at that point she had tunnel vision. She did the book, it was a phenomenal success, but I don't think she really thought about how to parlay that success into a music career. I bet you that once the first book hit, she immediately started thinking about the second book. And of course the second book was definitely a good move, but again, what about the music? Just seems like missed opportunities to me.
    Right. You'd think she'd be able to make music waves like Tina Turner did (though she released her first memoirs after re-establishing herself so maybe that's not a good comparison?). But yeah I agree that Mary was thinking about books than music. She had mentioned writing a "part 2" during promotion of the Dreamgirl book.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I agree. She's a grandmother now and, like Diana, she's at a point in her life when there's no crying over spilled milk. Mary has done more than most of her peers in the industry, and for far longer too. We fans probably make more of these kinds of things than the artists do at this point.
    Plus, she's living very comfortably in Vegas. And yeah some fans are stuck in the '60s/'70s like the issues that were mentioned wasn't 50 years old already. It's great to reminisce but yeah.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I don't believe anyone is buying that Mary talked to a bunch of labels and couldn't come to terms. If anything, that scenario makes Mary look bad. It makes her look like an idiot who couldn't figure out how to negotiate a deal. And let's not kid ourselves, love her as we do, but this is Mary Wilson, not Diana Ross. What the hell was there for her to negotiate? Unless every contract had crazy stipulations like Mary had to sign over her first born or she had to undergo medicinal experiments or she had to perform a concert on the moon, there really was nothing for her to turn down. If the label was going to pay her and help her put out an album, what was the problem?
    Good post. I find it hard to believe she turned down many if any offers of a recording contract. I am sure she would have taken pretty much any offer on board. It is more likely that no-one was willing to take a chance on her. Her voice does not lend itself well on pop or r&b tunes. She is better suited to jazzy numbers and standards . A cabaret singer maybe, but an r&b diva ? No way.

  12. #62
    everyone needs a certain level of self awareness. dream vs reality. sure she was blessed and fortunate to be part of the Supremes but everyone knows nothing lasts forever. and after a certain amount of banging your head against the wall, you should realize that a career as a pop singer has either come & gone and a solo opportunity isn't going to arise.

    and maybe she did come to this conclusion. After the little bit in Sup Faith about signing with a few labels in the early 80s, it doesn't sound like she did much with any other potential deals. except that little bit she did with Nightmare.

    But she could have also focused on doing session work, developing a reputation in another genre like jazz, cabaret work, stage work, education, etc. And there was the oldies circuit which she was heavily involved with. I'm not personally aware of what she did or didn't do to diversify and find other opportunities. maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

    I do think she probably should have reconsidered the opportunity to join the FLO's. i doubt anyone would have demanded that she devote herself 24/7 to that group - they didn't have so many gigs and recording demands that she couldn't have continued some of her solo work. and basically during this time she was still living off the Sups name and touring as a former Supreme. I've always wondered if there was still angst between her and Lynda that really prevented this

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Right. You'd think she'd be able to make music waves like Tina Turner did (though she released her first memoirs after re-establishing herself so maybe that's not a good comparison?). But yeah I agree that Mary was thinking about books than music. She had mentioned writing a "part 2" during promotion of the Dreamgirl book.
    Tina was a once in a lifetime story, I think. Mary was never going to make those kind of waves, Dreamgirl or no Dreamgirl. A lot of the music business is pure luck vs many other factors, but I do think most of the HUGE artists of our lifetimes were uniquely talented in someway. I think Mary was/is a gifted vocalist, gorgeous, charismatic, great stage presence. But uniquely talented...I wouldn't say that. She could've made a label some nice money, but she wasn't ever going to do a Tina Turner. Lol (And I say that as someone who prefers Mary's voice to Tina's.)

  14. #64
    Tina was that artist that was driven and determined to get to where she got to and didn't kiss butt to do it (honestly why didn't VH-1 do a "Driven" type documentary for her first post-Ike years?!?!).

    Mary was already looked as a Motown legend.

  15. #65
    also Tina was the lead singer of her outfit. so she had already established her voice and stage presence with an overall audience. wasn't like she was one of the Ikettes trying to land a record deal

  16. #66
    That's true lol

    She WAS the star of the show as well.

    But I do think in terms of background singers of vocal groups, Mary has become one of the most famous, if not the most famous.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    That's true lol

    She WAS the star of the show as well.

    But I do think in terms of background singers of vocal groups, Mary has become one of the most famous, if not the most famous.
    I think thatís true

    Sheís pretty much treated as on a par with Martha Reeves

  18. #68
    Walk the Line was a great, modern up to date sounding song....the record company filed Bankruptcy the day after it was released. That was a very bad blow...that CD was a far better display of Mary's abilities than the '79 LP. I was never nuts about RED HOT till I saw Mary perform it live in the mid 80's...she really worked the song. I later got the 12" single....that is the arrangement she was using live.....much better flow than the LP version....and a fire red outfit, be it a gown, balloon dress or mini skirt (saw her do it in all 3) added to the performance. Red Hot and Warm Summer Night are the only 2 songs I consider very good on that LP...You Danced My Heart was a show stopper...too bad it wasn't released at the time...and Ian Levine's Don't Get Mad Get Even is one of the best recordings in the entire Motorcity project catalogue.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    And just to put a balance on this situation it could also be true to say that you cannot stand that some people do not like Mary Wilson at all! It works both ways.
    How about we donít like negative mean spirited people

    Mary Wilson and Diana Ross donít fit that Description but which poster do you think would fit that description?

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    also Tina was the lead singer of her outfit. so she had already established her voice and stage presence with an overall audience. wasn't like she was one of the Ikettes trying to land a record deal
    Not to mention that Tina is/was a once-in-a-lifetime singer and dancer as well as force of nature.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    also Tina was the lead singer of her outfit. so she had already established her voice and stage presence with an overall audience. wasn't like she was one of the Ikettes trying to land a record deal
    Although a few of the Ikettes did land solo record deals, so another great example of that.

  22. #72
    I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.
    Yes, it was not like she did nothing but I believe Motown may have made her very wary and probably she was reluctant to just be recording like she did with Motown. Still, Bogart passed away and Atlantic did not pan out. I remember seeing her on Good Morning America when Walk The Line came out and they even said she was widely quoted for wanting a recording deal and she laughed "I was begging". Her stint on Arsenio singing Walk The Line should have peaked some interest after CEO folded and I remember her singing Bad Case Of Lovin You on Rick Dees and he was quite complimentary. I think in negotiating perhaps the two sides couldn't come to terms with both being a legend and a new soloist but I am sure there are those on here who know far more than I and that will r*d#ly say so

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.
    We discuss the Atlantic demos (I think there were four). I recall Mary writing about meeting with Bogart but had forgotten the details. I also recall some folks questioning the truth of Mary's story. I just finally pulled Mary's book out to read exactly what she wrote about the Neil Bogart situation. I don't doubt her story. She may have padded it a bit with Neil's promise to make her a huge star, but I believe her when she says she was days away from signing when he passed away.

    She also writes this, which is very interesting: "I met with various label executives, once even auditioning for Merv Griffin's new record company, but no luck." Prior to this statement she talks about having the Gus Dudgeon masters and how the industry had changed in a way that a singer needed a finished product in order to get a contract. So I wonder how much of the "no's" she received had to do with the demos she might have been shopping around? Many of us agree that the songs are great, Mary sounds great, and a full album of Gus' productions could have been a turning point for her post Supremes career. But the music business always was tough on Black women and feeling the need to place them in a box. Those Dudgeon songs are mostly very pop sounding. Perhaps the labels didn't want a pop singing Black woman? What if Mary had shopped around demos that had a more r&b sound to them, what might the reaction have been?

    Just throwing some stuff out there. Ultimately none of us will ever know why things didn't go Mary's way, so it's all conjecture.

  25. #75
    Also, Mary writes about this time in her life (the early 80s) that "My self confidence wasn't at its highest..." So I guess it makes sense that this too would play a part in the decisions she made regarding the industry.

  26. #76
    Mary said she and Neil were negotiating the deal with Casablanca when he died of cancer in 1982.

    It's also possible Mary Wilson was trying to present herself as a woman who could sing anything via the Gus Dudgeon demos but labels told her to her face they couldn't sell a black woman singing rock and/or pop rock music so they turned her down.

    Doesn't seem like she was trying to carve an R&B career at the time...
    Last edited by midnightman; Yesterday at 01:35 AM.

  27. #77
    Mary Wilson has a wonderful Cassandra Wilson type voice. Jazz and soulful ballads was the genre of material she should have been recording at that period in time. Not rock,pop and most certainly not disco. She could have built quite a following if she had just understood the type of music that was best suited to her voice. I certainly believe record labels would have shown a little more interest if she had.
    From an image perspective she often (not always) presented herself as a kind of Diana Ross clone which did not help matters either. I think it would have been better for her to downplay the glamour/glitter image and gone for a more earthy look.
    Last edited by Ollie9; Yesterday at 07:17 AM.

  28. #78
    ^agreed

    it also didn't help that her show was essentially a rehashed Supremes show from the late 70s. many of the same arrangements and gowns. so she was touring basically as an oldies act but trying to audition for labels as a current pop star.

    and as i said before, given her age she had about 3 weeks after leaving the Sups to make it before she would start being considered too old.

    Time was ticking, she had locked herself in an out of date performance image, she had no current pop record in the US (with our without the Sups).

  29. #79
    Mary also did acting after the book...perhaps she was undecided about what performance area she should be concentrating on? She got great reviews for her work in Grandma Sylvia's Funeral and her performance in Beehive...She also got an education...moving to NY to attend classes at NYU.

  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    Mary also did acting after the book...perhaps she was undecided about what performance area she should be concentrating on? She got great reviews for her work in Grandma Sylvia's Funeral and her performance in Beehive...She also got an education...moving to NY to attend classes at NYU.
    Yeah, she appeared in a number of stage productions. I saw her in Beehive and Grandma Sylvia's Funeral. She also appeared in "Leader of the Pack", "Ardella's Soul Shack", "Vagina Monologues" to name a few.

  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    ^agreed

    it also didn't help that her show was essentially a rehashed Supremes show from the late 70s. many of the same arrangements and gowns. so she was touring basically as an oldies act but trying to audition for labels as a current pop star.

    and as i said before, given her age she had about 3 weeks after leaving the Sups to make it before she would start being considered too old.

    Time was ticking, she had locked herself in an out of date performance image, she had no current pop record in the US (with our without the Sups).
    Recording was just one part of Mary Wilson's career and we see now, recording contracts are not that beneficial financially to artists anymore. Maybe if you are the top 5-10 artists recording today.

  32. #82
    Recording contracts were much more beneficial in the late 70s and 80s because most acts were produced in association with the artists so the rampant ripping off artists by overcharging them for sessions was basically over. Mary was able to pay for sessions she wanted, or agree to be produced by house who wished to market her. Like Walk The Line. Yes, it ultimately didn’t work out, but it was all on their dime - It didn’t cost Mary a dime and she got TV and trade exposure because if the good single One Night Woth You.

  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.
    She did several demos for Atlantic. One was written by Janie Bradford and it has become a favorite of mine:


  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Yes, it was not like she did nothing but I believe Motown may have made her very wary and probably she was reluctant to just be recording like she did with Motown. Still, Bogart passed away and Atlantic did not pan out. I remember seeing her on Good Morning America when Walk The Line came out and they even said she was widely quoted for wanting a recording deal and she laughed "I was begging". Her stint on Arsenio singing Walk The Line should have peaked some interest after CEO folded and I remember her singing Bad Case Of Lovin You on Rick Dees and he was quite complimentary. I think in negotiating perhaps the two sides couldn't come to terms with both being a legend and a new soloist but I am sure there are those on here who know far more than I and that will r*d#ly say so
    Fantasy Records tried to sign Mary, but she passed on it and then sent Brenda Holloway to them. They simply could not come to terms with Mary.
    Last edited by marv2; Yesterday at 06:22 PM.

  35. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Fantasy Records tried to sign Mary, but she passed it and then sent Brenda Holloway to them. They simply could not come to terms with Mary.
    Mary Wilsons generous to a fault. The womans a saint.

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Recording contracts were much more beneficial in the late 70s and 80s because most acts were produced in association with the artists so the rampant ripping off artists by overcharging them for sessions was basically over. Mary was able to pay for sessions she wanted, or agree to be produced by house who wished to market her. Like Walk The Line. Yes, it ultimately didn’t work out, but it was all on their dime - It didn’t cost Mary a dime and she got TV and trade exposure because if the good single One Night Woth You.
    Just wished it paid off with a hit single.

  37. #87
    It is a shame - it got good distribution- it was in many stores and reviewed in Billboard positively but sadly radio stayed away totally. Her vocal is very good but needed some polish - especially at the end. Still, I thought it would get some play.

  38. #88
    Imagine had a major label done the same thing and actually promoted it, huh...

  39. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Recording was just one part of Mary Wilson's career and we see now, recording contracts are not that beneficial financially to artists anymore. Maybe if you are the top 5-10 artists recording today.
    But they were back in the period we are discussing.

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