What If? David Ruffin stayed with the Temptations?

[Optimal Saint]

I was wondering what would have happened if David Ruffin wasn't voted out of the Tempts in '68

Would they still have recorded Cloud Nine, Ball of Confusion etc.?

Would David's solo songs have been reworked for the group?

Would they have still done the round robin vocals that were a hallmark of the Dennis led Tempts?

[JimBagley]

I think Dennis Edwards would have ended up at Stax as a successful solo artist, although I have trouble imagining David evolving into a stable team player which would have forced Dennis to seek employment elsewhere.

[Quinn]

I could talk at length about this, but here's a condensed version of my opinion.

I can't hear David singing "Cloud Nine" for the life of me. That song was definitely composed with Dennis in mind, it didn't sound the greatest on Marvin Gaye in my book. I think Norman Whitfield would've made the changes that he did in terms of his production style, but with tunes suitable for David. Think the"Me 'N' Rock & Roll Are Here To Stay" sound in the late sixties, but with better albums. "Ball Of Confusion" would still be created, but with David singing different lyrics and/or a different vocal melody.

As for his solo tunes being altered to fit The Tempts, that's a bit of a stretch. I can't see the group liking the songs or being ecstatic about recording them. If they had sang the songs and they surfaced on a "Lost & Found" we would shake our heads in bewilderment because they are way below what The Temptations were known for or was supposed to do. Take David's name off of his records and replace it with the group's.... The worst ever in their vast catalogue!!!. The only reason David did them was because Berry Gordy wasn't a fan of him after the lawsuit to break his contract. He was reduced to C material and a lack of promotion. He skipped out on a full album with Ivy Jo Hunter and frustrated Smokey more than a little. I'm going too long...

Norman Whitfield would change his style as he did, but with different songs from partner Barret Strong.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Interesting questions. I really enjoy reading Quinn's observations as they always seem to be rooted in something a bit more than just "IMHO" sort of comments. I also think he nailed all the points.

The question of yours that I immediately thought about was whether or not David's solo songs would have been reworked for the group. I don't believe the songs David recorded as a solo were songs slated for the Temptations to begin with; if any one was, I could see "My Whole World Ended", but if I recall correctly, producers Fuqua and Bristol merely tried to give the song a sort of Temptations sound by use of the all-male chorus. I don't believe it was really intended as a Temptations song [[I may be wrong though...)

I agree too with Quinn's comments concerning the vast majority of David's solo recordings, at least the first 2 albums, being C material. There are some good songs on those albums, but nothing near the classics David was recording with the Temptations. I remember as a kid listening to the "My Whole World Ended" album and I swear, I thought Motown had dropped its guard and signed this guy who had all these boring songs! I really had no idea it was the same guy who had been singing all those Temptations songs I loved! Even a kid can hear the difference between a classic hit like "I Wish It Would Rain" and second-level so-so material.

The Temptations were already in the hands of Norman Whitfield, so I can't conceive that suddenly the group would end up recording things like "Message To Maria" or "The Double Cross"...

[arr&bee]

I think that every temps fan has asked that question,david would've sang[cloud nine]and nailed it..[he was that good]but david being david,he wouldn't have like the multiple leads thing that norman had em doing with much success and that would've caused a riff, david's ego was bigger than the success of the group.

[dvus7]

I could talk at length about this, but here's a condensed version of my opinion.

I can't hear David singing "Cloud Nine" for the life of me. That song was definitely composed with Dennis in mind, it didn't sound the greatest on Marvin Gaye in my book. I think Norman Whitfield would've made the changes that he did in terms of his production style, but with tunes suitable for David. Think the"Me 'N' Rock & Roll Are Here To Stay" sound in the late sixties, but with better albums. "Ball Of Confusion" would still be created, but with David singing different lyrics and/or a different vocal melody.

As for his solo tunes being altered to fit The Tempts, that's a bit of a stretch. I can't see the group liking the songs or being ecstatic about recording them. If they had sang the songs and they surfaced on a "Lost & Found" we would shake our heads in bewilderment because they are way below what The Temptations were known for or was supposed to do. Take David's name off of his records and replace it with the group's.... The worst ever in their vast catalogue!!!. The only reason David did them was because Berry Gordy wasn't a fan of him after the lawsuit to break his contract. He was reduced to C material and a lack of promotion.

I think that he was the first to file or one of the first recording artist to file a lawsuit. Mr. Gordy never held a "singer" in high regards. He always felt that the writer/producer was the star of Motown. Otis stated that "the Moment you left" was recorded in the same "vain" as the Temptations music. I would not doubt that the song was recorded while David Ruffin was still with the Temptations. Mr. Gordy stated, "that he released the song because he thought that was what David Ruffin wanted"

[arr&bee]

David may have still been a member of the group when he recorded his solo,but the temps were not singing on it.

[marv2]

David may have still been a member of the group when he recorded his solo,but the temps were not singing on it.

The Originals are doing the backup vocals on that record.

[Quinn]

I think that he was the first to file or one of the first recording artist to file a lawsuit. Mr. Gordy never held a "singer" in high regards. He always felt that the writer/producer was the star of Motown. Otis stated that "the Moment you left" was recorded in the same "vain" as the Temptations music. I would not doubt that the song was recorded while David Ruffin was still with the Temptations. Mr. Gordy stated, "that he released the song because he thought that was what David Ruffin wanted"

David was the first to file a lawsuit against Motown. When he was booted out of The Temptations he figured he could challenge the contract he'd signed in 1966 and get his emancipation. However the paper trail stated that it still had him hooked for a good five years and he had to remain at "Peyton Place" until it expired. He discovered many things like how he was never an official member of the group, but a solo artist singing with the group. So Berry didn't have to release him or renegotiate his contract.

You're right about B.G. not caring much for singers,after all producers would only get charged for a track if it had no vocal overdubs. So Smokey Robinson records a song on Mary Wells and she has to pay for it.???????.

Johnny Bristol cut the basic track, added strings and assigned it to The Tempts in July. David didn't lay his vocals until November and he did it twice. So between July and October the sweep and the legalities took place. Bristol just had to wait until everything cooled off before he could finish "My Whole World Ended".

[TomatoTom123]

Now of course I'm totally biased, but I think David's solo debut was really very good... "My Whole World Ended" is in my opinion an absolutely wonderful and beautiful song, equally as good as "I Wish It Would Rain" or "I Could Never Love Another", the last two Tempts singles David sang lead on.

I would say that My Whole World Ended is definitely more in the typical Motown soul vein compared to what The Tempts were doing... it's definitely not groundbreaking or pushing any boundaries, just quality music.

[dvus7]

David was the first to file a lawsuit against Motown. When he was booted out of The Temptations he figured he could challenge the contract he'd signed in 1966 and get his emancipation. However the paper trail stated that it still had him hooked for a good five years and he had to remain at "Peyton Place" until it expired. He discovered many things like how he was never an official member of the group, but a solo artist singing with the group. So Berry didn't have to release him or renegotiate his contract.

You're right about B.G. not caring much for singers,after all producers would only get charged for a track if it had no vocal overdubs. So Smokey Robinson records a song on Mary Wells and she has to pay for it.???????.

Johnny Bristol cut the basic track, added strings and assigned it to The Tempts in July. David didn't lay his vocals until November and he did it twice. So between July and October the sweep and the legalities took place. Bristol just had to wait until everything cooled off before he could finish "My Whole World Ended".

Hey, Quinn
It sounds like you have some "insight" to the lawsuit & other things...Would that be true?????LOL!! I would love to see the lawsuit!!!

[dvus7]

Now of course I'm totally biased, but I think David's solo debut was really very good... "My Whole World Ended" is in my opinion an absolutely wonderful and beautiful song, equally as good as "I Wish It Would Rain" or "I Could Never Love Another", the last two Tempts singles David sang lead on.

I would say that My Whole World Ended is definitely more in the typical Motown soul vein compared to what The Tempts were doing... it's definitely not groundbreaking or pushing any boundaries, just quality music.

It was!!! But David was also suspended for not promoting the record....At least that is what Dennis said.

[TomatoTom123]

Oh yeah dvus, I feel like I've heard that before... I remember him saying it would have been a bigger hit if it weren't for that. I do recall there being a recorded lip sync performance however.

Ah yes here it is!!

[marv2]

Now of course I'm totally biased, but I think David's solo debut was really very good... "My Whole World Ended" is in my opinion an absolutely wonderful and beautiful song, equally as good as "I Wish It Would Rain" or "I Could Never Love Another", the last two Tempts singles David sang lead on.

I would say that My Whole World Ended is definitely more in the typical Motown soul vein compared to what The Tempts were doing... it's definitely not groundbreaking or pushing any boundaries, just quality music.

"My Whole World Ended" was one of the best records of 1969. It receive lots of radio airplay and it past the "Friday night new 45's" test at my house at the time. LOL!

[McMotown]

What a great question. I agree with arr&bee and don't think David would have liked the multiple leads thing.However If David had stayed a Temptation we might never have heard those three fantastic albums 'Who I Am', 'Everything's Coming Up Love' and 'In My Stride' and as much as I love the Temptations they weren't coming out with anything decent between 75 & 80 IMO.