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  1. #51
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    Are you quite quite sure about "Old Funky Rolls?????
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    ^ lolol i actually like the song.
    I like it, too! Both versions. Love the playfulness. Not sure about the timeline of the songs, but I would have liked Last Time I Saw Him more if Funky and Sorry had been on that album.

  2. #52
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    yeah having a bit more "country" approach to the LTISH album might have helped make it a little less disjointed.

    Last Time I Saw Him
    Get It all together
    Why Play games
    Since i don't have you
    No one's gonna be a fool forever
    Together

    I'll be here
    love me
    behind closed doors
    Sorry doesn't always make it right
    Funky Old Rolls
    You

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah having a bit more "country" approach to the LTISH album might have helped make it a little less disjointed.

    Last Time I Saw Him
    Get It all together
    Why Play games
    Since i don't have you
    No one's gonna be a fool forever
    Together

    I'll be here
    love me
    behind closed doors
    Sorry doesn't always make it right
    Funky Old Rolls
    You
    Remove "Forever", "Love Me", "Sorry", "Funky" and "You" and you have a winner.

  4. #54
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    haha

    i have another playlist for LTISH of how i might have done the lp lineup:

    Last Time
    Get it all together
    why play games
    since i don't have you
    no one's gonna be a fool forever

    i'll be here
    love me
    I heard a love song
    stone liberty
    you

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    haha

    i have another playlist for LTISH of how i might have done the lp lineup:

    Last Time
    Get it all together
    why play games
    since i don't have you
    no one's gonna be a fool forever

    i'll be here
    love me
    I heard a love song
    stone liberty
    you
    Much better Sup. Mine would probably look like:

    LTISH
    I'll Be Here
    Get It All Together
    Sleepin
    Let Me Be the One

    Why Play Games
    When Will I Come Home to You
    I Heard a Love Song
    Stone Liberty
    Behind Closed Doors

  6. #56
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    after the amazing success of Touch Me, i'm surprised Michael Masser wasn't given full production duties for a Diana album. He seems to have quite a bit of material on her around this time:

    Sorry
    Together
    To Love Again
    I thought it took
    Mahogany
    After You
    Last time i saw him
    No one's gonna be a fool forever

  7. #57
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    Very interesting mystery Sup. A Masser album as a followup would've seemed like a no brainer. As it is, LTISH just fell flat. Some good songs. In fact I'd go so far as to say there wasn't a bad song on the album. "Turn Around" was a good song but seems out of place on an album that already seems out of place in her catalog, so that's a bad position for a song to be in. But the entire album is probably Ross' most boring Motown Part 1 album and it's no surprise it didn't take the industry by storm. Had the final tracklist been tweaked and Diana did more TV, things might have been different.

  8. #58
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    she made some comments that new producers at motown [[like bob gaudio) were being allowed to test out their work on an established star. see if anything took hold. while that's certainly generous for the producer, it obviously didn't especially help diana.

    taken by each producer's work, much of what she was producing would have held it's own, if allowed to developing into a full concept.

    Touch me in the AM lp - the released one really is lovely. but they sacrificed To The Baby which i think would have been an amazing album too. and you could have still had a strong Touch lp by swapping the TTB songs with other material that was available at the time.

    To the baby - again, this would have been a very strong and long-lasting concept. would have held up well IMO

    Last time - i think the Bob work is what's mostly out of place here. the stuff by Ron and Tom fits a bit more with the Michael work. i think it should have been mostly a michael masser lp with a couple others added in.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    she made some comments that new producers at motown [[like bob gaudio) were being allowed to test out their work on an established star. see if anything took hold. while that's certainly generous for the producer, it obviously didn't especially help diana.
    That's a very interesting bit of information. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Touch me in the AM lp - the released one really is lovely. but they sacrificed To The Baby which i think would have been an amazing album too. and you could have still had a strong Touch lp by swapping the TTB songs with other material that was available at the time.

    To the baby - again, this would have been a very strong and long-lasting concept. would have held up well IMO
    I just don't see a world where To the Baby would've ever been a success. The critics would've loved it for sure. Diana sounds great, the production is very good, the songs are good listening, but it seems like the kind of album one would release for sale through a catalog special offer or something, not something a mega star would have selling out of stores. What would have been the single? I think only the most die hard of fans at the time would've gone out and bought it and when they told their friends what the subject matter is, that would have halted any future sales.

    But I do agree that today the album would've held up well and would probably be regarded as a bonafide classic.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Last time - i think the Bob work is what's mostly out of place here. the stuff by Ron and Tom fits a bit more with the Michael work. i think it should have been mostly a michael masser lp with a couple others added in.
    You have a point. Those songs seem to have a better fit. IMO though, the Bob songs are pretty much the only songs on the album that have any "sizzle" to them. [["I Heard a Love Song" is my favorite song on the album and one of my favs by Diana period.) Take them away and the album continues to be a really boring flow. "You" should've been something Diana really got into, but to me the song just kinds of drags along and never builds up into this climactic soulful number where Diana could really kick into high gear. To me she sounds rather bored with it.

    Take Bob's songs out [[save them for the Mahogany soundtrack that she should've done every song), spruce up some of the remaining cuts, add a couple of mid tempo tunes and I think the album would've had a chance.

  11. #61
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    We seem to have moved way off topic here. The thread is supposed to be about Ross78 rather than Last Time I Saw Him. Getting back on topic do we have any official word that this expanded version is in the works or is it all idle speculation?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    We seem to have moved way off topic here. The thread is supposed to be about Ross78 rather than Last Time I Saw Him. Getting back on topic do we have any official word that this expanded version is in the works or is it all idle speculation?
    Yeah, because in Soulful Detroit we always stay on topic, right? Of course not. We tend to prefer to move with the flow of conversation, and that flow took us to LTISH and I'd like to continue to discuss that one if you don't mind.

    In addition to the rather bland song lineup on the album, I think the cover photo was equally as boring, although I guess that would make it an appropriate cover. I figure Motown felt the need to create an album around the title cut, but looking back I wonder if it was a better idea to release at least a second single from TMITM and then after the success of "Last Time I Saw Him", simply make it a single only cut, maybe put it on the greatest hits rather than try to create an album around it?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    do we have any official word that this expanded version is in the works or is it all idle speculation?
    I thought it was confirmed by Andy and/or George last year or the year before that Ross 78 was on the schedule.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I thought it was confirmed by Andy and/or George last year or the year before that Ross 78 was on the schedule.
    So did I but I haven't heard any updates for many months which is why I was a little concerned about its prospects.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Yeah, because in Soulful Detroit we always stay on topic, right? Of course not. We tend to prefer to move with the flow of conversation, and that flow took us to LTISH and I'd like to continue to discuss that one if you don't mind.

    In addition to the rather bland song lineup on the album, I think the cover photo was equally as boring, although I guess that would make it an appropriate cover. I figure Motown felt the need to create an album around the title cut, but looking back I wonder if it was a better idea to release at least a second single from TMITM and then after the success of "Last Time I Saw Him", simply make it a single only cut, maybe put it on the greatest hits rather than try to create an album around it?
    Touch me in the morning was a far stronger album and I am amazed that only one single was released in the States. Here in the UK we got another top 10 hit in All of my life, but I also felt that We need you could have been a major hit single too. Motown seemingly rushed out another album which was dull bland and boring for the most part.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Yeah, because in Soulful Detroit we always stay on topic, right? Of course not. We tend to prefer to move with the flow of conversation, and that flow took us to LTISH and I'd like to continue to discuss that one if you don't mind.

    In addition to the rather bland song lineup on the album, I think the cover photo was equally as boring, although I guess that would make it an appropriate cover. I figure Motown felt the need to create an album around the title cut, but looking back I wonder if it was a better idea to release at least a second single from TMITM and then after the success of "Last Time I Saw Him", simply make it a single only cut, maybe put it on the greatest hits rather than try to create an album around it?
    I'm the guilty one who brought LTISH into the thread.
    Apologies to Bluebrock.
    I include Funky and Sorry in my personal [[and short) LTISH playlist. Like I said, I never cared much for that album. I like your idea of LTISH as a single-only release.
    I Heard A Love Song is definitely the best cut. [[It's the title of my short playlist). I think it would have been an interesting single release. Not sure how well it would have been received.
    Yeah, at least one more single could have been released from TMITM. I wonder about I Won't Last a Day Without You. I know it was the B-side of TMITM single and it was an album track on a 1972 Carpenters LP. But the Carpenters didn't release it as a single until 1974. It maybe could have hit big for Ross for her Pop base, not so much for the rest.
    Back to Ross '78: I'm not that excited about an expanded edition. I'll just wait and see. The Greg Wright tracks were the best. Of the possible HDH tracks, I like We Can Never Light That Old Flame. I may be in the minority here, but I like the Ross '78 version of Lovin', Livin', Givin'.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    Touch me in the morning was a far stronger album and I am amazed that only one single was released in the States. Here in the UK we got another top 10 hit in All of my life, but I also felt that We need you could have been a major hit single too. Motown seemingly rushed out another album which was dull bland and boring for the most part.
    Yeah, I definitely agree. Motown's strategy with the music at this point makes absolutely no sense. Now let's be real about TMITM, it was an excellent long play album, but there isn't much on it that could be considered for single release. The album works so well as a cohesive collection. You all got "All of My Life" and I think that's the best candidate to followup "Morning", but why it wasn't released over here is a mystery. I don't think it had a chance of being anywhere as big or popular as "Touch Me In the Morning", but I think it would have made some noise. I was prepared to disagree with you on "We Need You", but I just played it and I have to agree. If there was a third single to be found, it was this one, although I'm of the impression that if "All" is the second single, "We Need You" wouldn't have done as well as "All".

    LTISH the album and single were released on the same day. I didn't realize that. So it wasn't even a case that the album was rushed together due to the success of the single. Makes me even more steadfast in my opinion that the single should've been released without an album unless Motown were going to put more thought into the overall concept.

    Not having Diana do every song on the Mahogany soundtrack was another misstep. It gives me goosebumps to think of what she might have done with "My Hero Is My Gun". That track is sick. The black album wouldn't have needed "Theme From Mahogany" if Motown had the good sense to give Mahogany soundtrack the same one artist concept that other Black movie soundtracks were getting at the time. And I get why "Hangover" was rushed out, and agree with that decision, but "It Took a Little Time" should've been re-released to see if there was still any life left in it.

    Baby It's Me was screwed from the jump. How does that type of album sit around for an entire month without a single release? And the nonsense of Ross 78 is already well documented in this thread. Gordy may not have been heavily involved on the music side at this point because of his Hollywood dreams, but somebody was still making music decisions at Motown and whoever that was, when it came to Diana Ross and the Supremes, the ball was being dropped left and right.

  18. #68
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    seems like ROSS 78 keeps getting pushed back.. i think they are holding it back on purpose. damn them at motown universal.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    Yeah, at least one more single could have been released from TMITM. I wonder about I Won't Last a Day Without You. I know it was the B-side of TMITM single and it was an album track on a 1972 Carpenters LP. But the Carpenters didn't release it as a single until 1974. It maybe could have hit big for Ross for her Pop base, not so much for the rest.
    Now this is news to me. I always assumed that the reason "Last a Day" ended up on the album was because it was already a big hit. Had no idea it wasn't a hit until a year later! In that case, I would've gone with it as the second single and then "All of My Life" as the third single. I agree that "Last a Day" would have resonated with her pop audience, but would have only gotten any R&B play because it was Diana Ross, and ultimately could've been a pop hit but only made a dent R&B.

  20. #70
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    i completely agree that a follow up tune from TMITM should have been released. but i don't know if any of the other tracks are just quite enough. All of my life is a great song but i don't think it builds enough. same with most of the lp tracks. they're perfect for listening to but i think they might have been rather anticlimatic on radio. the choruses are so powerful on Touch Me [[thanks to their ripping off the choruses from Up The Ladder To The Roof lol).

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i completely agree that a follow up tune from TMITM should have been released. but i don't know if any of the other tracks are just quite enough. All of my life is a great song but i don't think it builds enough. same with most of the lp tracks. they're perfect for listening to but i think they might have been rather anticlimatic on radio. the choruses are so powerful on Touch Me [[thanks to their ripping off the choruses from Up The Ladder To The Roof lol).
    "All of My Life" did well with overseas radio, so it may have done the same in the States. On the other hand, "Last a Day" was a big hit for the Carpenters and as nice as it is, to me it lacks the personality of Ross' version. The Carpenters hit number 11 with it. I'm sure Diana could've beaten that off the heels of the success of "Touch Me" alone.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    "All of My Life" did well with overseas radio, so it may have done the same in the States. On the other hand, "Last a Day" was a big hit for the Carpenters and as nice as it is, to me it lacks the personality of Ross' version. The Carpenters hit number 11 with it. I'm sure Diana could've beaten that off the heels of the success of "Touch Me" alone.
    Not necessarily. Throughout the 70s, whenever Diana had a #1 record, the next release failed to make the Top 10.

    BTW: That's not an opinion on the record itself. I love most of the tracks on the TMITM album. But I think as they often did, Motown threw too much product out there. They could have pulled another single or two from TMITM, but then DIANA AND MARVIN came out, followed by the LAST TIME I SAW HIM album and single, all within six months.

  23. #73
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    My single choices for TMITM:
    TMITM
    We Need You
    Brown Baby/ SavevThe Children 4:59 radio edit by me personally
    All Of My Life
    I won’t Last A Day

    i think LTISH project was the most ill concieved album of her career until Ross 78 - what a stinker from concept to relative failure.

    1) it’s unforgivable to issue only one single from her best solo project to date and one that gave her real street cred to her chops. Several strong contenders to follow up and make thus album a classic. UNFORGIVABLE!!!!

    2)you don’t follow up the greatest vocal of her career with a novelty song- Masser or not. Good or not, she was truly being respected as an artist and then, ......THIS.

    3)you don’t release three new albums in 5.5 months - especially when one is selling like mad and the other needed a lot of attention due to its soft launch. Also, a fourth album had been #1 just 7 months before. That’s a lot of album money for the public to put out one one artist in 8 months. Each project needed to be extremely strong to get pocketbooks open that wide.

    4) to follow up a classy, brilliantly concieved album with a hodgepodge of B-sides is just plain stooooopid. Perhaps there was another hit there... some think Stone Liberty, some think I Heard A Love Song, some think Love Me, some think When Will I Come Home To You.........NO ONE but some stoner at Motown thought Sleepin’ would hit. Prolly the same fool that thought Touch and I Guess I’ll Miss The Man would hit.

    5) I would have worked TMITM and D&M for a year before any new project

    6) I would not name an album “last time I saw him “unless the single had become a top five smash… And even then, using that title to sell an album would lead the public to think that the entire album was going to sound something like that song…… And, how many people, even if they liked the song, would want to buy an entire album in that vein? For this reason, I would not have used that name, unless, there was already another smash single from that album so that the public would know there’s more to it than a novelty song.

    7) I cannot do a track listing for a December 73 release because it’s such a bad idea I can’t even pretend. However, in third-quarter 1974, a new single from the forthcoming album “ I thought it took a little time……” where to come out. The tracklist for THAT album:

    Side 1:

    I thought it took a little time
    Love Me
    last time I saw him
    We’re Always Saying Goodbye
    Where did we go wrong
    To love again

    Side 2:

    Stone Liberty
    Sorry doesn’t always make it right
    Since I don’t have you
    I Heard A LovevSong
    When will I come home to you
    you

    nothing could ever get me to put a Together or Funky Rolls on anything besides a latent Lostband Found CD released ten years after my death.

  24. #74
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    Sometimes I wish Motown had been more selective with releases on Diana Ross, its most iconic female star. In the 70's, the limited output and releases of its iconic male stars, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, were admittedly limited to their creative whims but that made every album by them an event. This may be unthinkable to some, but I can imagine a Diana Ross 70's album discography without Everything Is Everything, Last Time I Saw Him , Ross[[78). Or even Diana Ross Live at Caesar's Palace. [[gasp!) An Evening with Diana Ross would be the special live showcase it was clearly meant to be.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    My single choices for TMITM:
    TMITM
    We Need You
    Brown Baby/ SavevThe Children 4:59 radio edit by me personally
    All Of My Life
    I won’t Last A Day

    i think LTISH project was the most ill concieved album of her career until Ross 78 - what a stinker from concept to relative failure.

    1) it’s unforgivable to issue only one single from her best solo project to date and one that gave her real street cred to her chops. Several strong contenders to follow up and make thus album a classic. UNFORGIVABLE!!!!

    2)you don’t follow up the greatest vocal of her career with a novelty song- Masser or not. Good or not, she was truly being respected as an artist and then, ......THIS.

    3)you don’t release three new albums in 5.5 months - especially when one is selling like mad and the other needed a lot of attention due to its soft launch. Also, a fourth album had been #1 just 7 months before. That’s a lot of album money for the public to put out one one artist in 8 months. Each project needed to be extremely strong to get pocketbooks open that wide.

    4) to follow up a classy, brilliantly concieved album with a hodgepodge of B-sides is just plain stooooopid. Perhaps there was another hit there... some think Stone Liberty, some think I Heard A Love Song, some think Love Me, some think When Will I Come Home To You.........NO ONE but some stoner at Motown thought Sleepin’ would hit. Prolly the same fool that thought Touch and I Guess I’ll Miss The Man would hit.

    5) I would have worked TMITM and D&M for a year before any new project

    6) I would not name an album “last time I saw him “unless the single had become a top five smash… And even then, using that title to sell an album would lead the public to think that the entire album was going to sound something like that song…… And, how many people, even if they liked the song, would want to buy an entire album in that vein? For this reason, I would not have used that name, unless, there was already another smash single from that album so that the public would know there’s more to it than a novelty song.

    7) I cannot do a track listing for a December 73 release because it’s such a bad idea I can’t even pretend. However, in third-quarter 1974, a new single from the forthcoming album “ I thought it took a little time……” where to come out. The tracklist for THAT album:

    Side 1:

    I thought it took a little time
    Love Me
    last time I saw him
    We’re Always Saying Goodbye
    Where did we go wrong
    To love again

    Side 2:

    Stone Liberty
    Sorry doesn’t always make it right
    Since I don’t have you
    I Heard A LovevSong
    When will I come home to you
    you

    nothing could ever get me to put a Together or Funky Rolls on anything besides a latent Lostband Found CD released ten years after my death.
    Your entire post sums up my sentiments exactly MM. What on earth was motowns strategy [[assuming there was one) in releasing such a weak, ill conceived album like LTISH hot on the heels of a classic.
    Perhaps it was to show the world that Diana could handle any type of music genre. If so it still does not explain the thinking that made for such a crazy release schedule.
    Whatever the reasoning behind it, i believe it was decisions like this that to some extent prevented the music media from viewing Diana as a serious albums artist.
    Last edited by Ollie9; 09-18-2018 at 08:37 AM.

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    I believe it was Diana herself who pushed for "Sleepin" to be released as a single. Apparently she loved the song to bits. I like the song, but it was probably to dark for pop radio.
    There were far superior songs they could have used on this album.. I particularly like "To The Baby" "Part Of You" and Kewpie Doll".........To mention a few.
    Last edited by Ollie9; 09-18-2018 at 08:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Not necessarily. Throughout the 70s, whenever Diana had a #1 record, the next release failed to make the Top 10.
    You have a point. [[Pop chart that is. On the R&B chart during the 70s she did followup her big hits with top 10 placings.) But I think "Last a Day" would have been an exception for this reason: it was so very pop. If you look at Diana's singles during the 70s, very few of them are- what I would describe, anyway- as pop. R&B, R&B/pop, but very few that were just straight pop. "Last Time I Saw Him" and "Theme From Mahogany" are really the only two I would describe as pure pop. [[And no surprise, they were bigger hits with pop audiences too.) While I do think "Last a Day" is more R&B than either of those songs, I think it was pop enough to follow "Touch Me In the Morning" into the top 10. Maybe not number one, but definitely top 10. I can imagine a world where pop radio may not have been breaking turntables to play all of Diana's singles, but I can't see them turning this one down.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    Sometimes I wish Motown had been more selective with releases on Diana Ross, its most iconic female star. In the 70's, the limited output and releases of its iconic male stars, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, were admittedly limited to their creative whims but that made every album by them an event. This may be unthinkable to some, but I can imagine a Diana Ross 70's album discography without Everything Is Everything, Last Time I Saw Him , Ross[[78). Or even Diana Ross Live at Caesar's Palace. [[gasp!) An Evening with Diana Ross would be the special live showcase it was clearly meant to be.
    I still think EIE gets a bad rap, it's a really good album IMO, but other than that, I agree with you. I really think it's time to except the fact that after Diana Ross left the Supremes, she was an actress first and a singer second, from Gordy's point of view. Even the DRATS years it feels like Gordy's quest to make Diana a screen star, starting with television, took precedence over maintaining consecutive hit singles. "Somethings", "Composer", even "Sign", and I still think following "Love Child" up with "Shame" was lazy and without much thought. These things would have never happened during the Flo years. The days of "only number one hits on the Supremes will be released" was over the minute "In and Out of Love" hit the street.

    And then as a solo, it's like Gordy was so focused on Diana the actress, that there wasn't much thought put into the music side. Look at the Everything Is Everything vs Surrender debacle. EIE was released without a single and then a month later Motown is releasing the first of three singles from Surrender, before finally releasing a single from EIE. What in the everlasting hell was going on there? Apparently she did very little television. [[Did she ever perform "Surrender" or "Reach Out I'll Be There" or "I'm Still Waiting" on TV?) TV had already proven itself to be a great asset in marketing releases by big artists, the Supremes being a great example of that, so why no Ross on TV? [[I know she was pregnant during this time, so I can imagine a limited schedule, but come on!) Motown just wasn't taking the care it should have with Diana's music. So it's interesting to note that during the 70s Diana Ross was probably the biggest African American star in the world, yet her single releases were hit and miss and her albums were rarely considered competition. She was extremely popular. No reason her discography during that time isn't listed as huge hit after huge hit consecutively...had Motown taken the care needed to make it so.

    The public was waiting, that's for sure.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I believe it was Diana herself who pushed for "Sleepin" to be released as a single. Apparently she loved the song to bits. I like the song, but it was probably to dark for pop radio.
    There were far superior songs they could have used on this album.. I particularly like "To The Baby" "Part Of You" and Kewpie Doll".........To mention a few.
    I love "Sleepin" and Diana's performance of it. Very well done and excellent contribution to that dull ass album. But horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE choice for a single. The song was dark, very dark, but if you go for dark as a single, it kind of has to be masked by something else. There was no something else with this song. Radio was never going to get behind it. But just as a song, I love it.

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    motown's strategy was profit. pure and simple. they were not really looking to create only indelible classics. they were into pushing product to the public and getting them to buy it. examples:

    1. often the lp version of a hit song was different from the single version. this was done purely to get rabid fans to buy both and make more money

    2. they absolutely DID release garbage during the MFD years. Liverpool was nothing more than a crass attempt to cash in. very little care was given to really treating the british tunes with any respect. these all seem to be 1-take wonders. CW&P is also boarderline. while it does contain some strong 3-part harmonies it was done to replicate Ray Charles' groundbreaking Modern Sounds in Country & Western Music. his was amazing. the girls' was not. Sam Cooke also seems very rushed but certainly better than the previous two.

    3. motown had long been in the habit of massive volumes of releases on the girls. look at late 68 - Love Child single, Love Child lp, I'm gonna make you love me, Join the Temps, Live at Talk of town, Funny Girl, TCB. all of these we released in a 5 month period


    As fans we've obviously grown to love the girls and their work. we can appreciate their artistic growth through the years and can overlook some things that aren't stellar because of our adoration. But back in the day no one knew how long things would last. they had no idea if public tastes would shift and suddenly the money is gone. they wanted money so strike while things are hot

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    Regarding I Won't Last A Day Without You, it appears that both Paul Williams and Maureen McGovern released the song as a single in 1973. That may be the reason it was not considered for a single release by Ross.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    motown's strategy was profit. pure and simple. they were not really looking to create only indelible classics. they were into pushing product to the public and getting them to buy it.

    As fans we've obviously grown to love the girls and their work. we can appreciate their artistic growth through the years and can overlook some things that aren't stellar because of our adoration. But back in the day no one knew how long things would last. they had no idea if public tastes would shift and suddenly the money is gone. they wanted money so strike while things are hot
    Yeah, I know it's a music industry. Totally understand it for the Supremes and the 60's. Who knew how long it would last [[even for the Beatles)? And in 1970, apparently Berry Gordy was very anxious for Ross. But Lady Sings The Blues, the film and soundtrack, shot Ross into the stratosphere. More care and consideration should have been taken in presenting her from then on. But I'm just wanting to see Ross in the best light. I'm aware that all careers include mistakes, miscalculations and falls from grace. You're right, stars can't always be stellar. But it is nice to dream about!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I still think EIE gets a bad rap, it's a really good album IMO, but other than that, I agree with you. I really think it's time to except the fact that after Diana Ross left the Supremes, she was an actress first and a singer second, from Gordy's point of view. Even the DRATS years it feels like Gordy's quest to make Diana a screen star, starting with television, took precedence over maintaining consecutive hit singles. "Somethings", "Composer", even "Sign", and I still think following "Love Child" up with "Shame" was lazy and without much thought. These things would have never happened during the Flo years. The days of "only number one hits on the Supremes will be released" was over the minute "In and Out of Love" hit the street.

    And then as a solo, it's like Gordy was so focused on Diana the actress, that there wasn't much thought put into the music side. Look at the Everything Is Everything vs Surrender debacle. EIE was released without a single and then a month later Motown is releasing the first of three singles from Surrender, before finally releasing a single from EIE. What in the everlasting hell was going on there? Apparently she did very little television. [[Did she ever perform "Surrender" or "Reach Out I'll Be There" or "I'm Still Waiting" on TV?) TV had already proven itself to be a great asset in marketing releases by big artists, the Supremes being a great example of that, so why no Ross on TV? [[I know she was pregnant during this time, so I can imagine a limited schedule, but come on!) Motown just wasn't taking the care it should have with Diana's music. So it's interesting to note that during the 70s Diana Ross was probably the biggest African American star in the world, yet her single releases were hit and miss and her albums were rarely considered competition. She was extremely popular. No reason her discography during that time isn't listed as huge hit after huge hit consecutively...had Motown taken the care needed to make it so.

    The public was waiting, that's for sure.
    Oh RanRan, really?! EIE?! Sleepin?! Just joshin'.
    EIE is ok, not "really good". Sleepin' is like My Baby, My Own - a bit melodramatic, but a good performance. My humble opinions, of course.
    I never really thought about Gordy focusing on the movies, at expense of the music. But I think you're right. I guess by the 70's, Motown and Gordy were overextended, financially and creatively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    motown's strategy was profit. pure and simple. they were not really looking to create only indelible classics. they were into pushing product to the public and getting them to buy it. examples:

    2. they absolutely DID release garbage during the MFD years. Liverpool was nothing more than a crass attempt to cash in. very little care was given to really treating the british tunes with any respect. these all seem to be 1-take wonders. CW&P is also boarderline. while it does contain some strong 3-part harmonies it was done to replicate Ray Charles' groundbreaking Modern Sounds in Country & Western Music. his was amazing. the girls' was not. Sam Cooke also seems very rushed but certainly better than the previous two.

    As fans we've obviously grown to love the girls and their work. we can appreciate their artistic growth through the years and can overlook some things that aren't stellar because of our adoration. But back in the day no one knew how long things would last. they had no idea if public tastes would shift and suddenly the money is gone. they wanted money so strike while things are hot
    What Gordy did with Liverpool, Country and Sam was two fold: capitalize, which meant more money via the connection, and diversify, which meant more money via the fact that the Supremes would never be just another run of the mill R&B group and thus would be booked into the venues they would eventually kick the doors in of which were better paying than the average pop venue. That is not the same issue I'm talking about as what was going on in the 70s with Diana Ross. While the Supremes did release these "odd" albums, no single was released from any of them, and the spirit existed that the Supremes would only release number one hit singles, even though it wasn't until "Heartaches" failed to be the 6th chart topper that Gordy actually put the edict in writing. Keeping the Supremes hitmaker status was important to Gordy and company, no matter how much time was being put into readying them for the Copa or Lincoln Center, or managing the inter and intra-group issues.

    Diana Ross had an album released in November 1970 and there wasn't a single released from that album for six months or more. Meanwhile from December 1970 to July 1971 three singles are released from Surrender. That would've never happened during the Flo years when the music was important. Not to mention, once again, that there doesn't seem to be great consideration for Diana's single releases. From "Baby Love" thru "Reflections", great care was taken to see to it that only the "best" of the best songs were released as singles by the Supremes. While we all have our ideas about which album cuts [[and shelved cuts) would've made great hit singles, most of us would find it very difficult to argue against the release of any of the Supremes' singles from "Where" to "Reflections" because, love 'em or hate 'em, they were all such great songs. I hate "The Happening", but I can definitely understand why Motown thought it was worthy of release.

    Diana Ross? I can maybe think of a handful of her singles that were easily hits, but most of those singles sound as though they wouldn't hold up compared to the biggies like "Mountain", "Touch Me" and "Hangover". Most of her singles just didn't hold up next to other songs hitting big at the time. The same cannot be said for the Supremes during the Flo years. Motown took the Supremes' musical career seriously. Motown put Diana Ross' musical career on the back burner, only paying some attention when they felt like it was absolutely necessary.

    Ross 78. Need I say more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    Oh RanRan, really?! EIE?! Sleepin?! Just joshin'.
    EIE is ok, not "really good". Sleepin' is like My Baby, My Own - a bit melodramatic, but a good performance. My humble opinions, of course.
    I never really thought about Gordy focusing on the movies, at expense of the music. But I think you're right. I guess by the 70's, Motown and Gordy were overextended, financially and creatively.
    That's why I like "Sleepin" [[and "My Baby, My Own"). She pulls off great performances on them. On "Sleepin" it really seems like she's in character. The same with "My Baby". I feel the soul of those cuts because of Diana. But I can understand why they wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, hence the ridiculousness of releasing "Sleepin" as a single.

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    lolol Ran oh i don't disagree with you that there was definitely some odd decisions made to her solo career. completely agree that the timing of EIE and Surrender [[plus their corresponding singles) was completely whacked. And Ross 78 is a nightmare in my opinion. i still say that one was only partially done and someone was asleep on the job.

    And yes, Berry absolutely wanted to make the Sups a crossover act. no doubt about it. i love that he had them venture into other genres. i just think those early ones were too rushed. look at the care that was lavished on R&H or even Funny Girl [[which they gave all of about 3 days to working on). the results are glorious. now imagine if they'd really given some time and effort to Liverpool or CW&P.

    I think Liverpool was always going to be a bit of a lightweight project. let's be honest here. the british invasion was a massive cultural occurrence in 64. it just about obliterated all American groups from the pop charts. Except for our girls of course so sure, it was meant to be a fun, sort of silly project. But the British groups covered many american r&b songs and motown songs and did so in a way that showed they cared about the music and material.

    It might have been more appropriate to have finished A Tribute To The Girls. that music was ideal for the Sups and their 3-part harmony. it would have contained quite a few tunes that the current youth would have recognized and wanted. Always wondered what else was considered for this set. I know Around the World, Sincerely and Sandman were part of it. Maybe Fancy Passes, I Am Woman?

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    I agree Sup. The Liverpool sessions occurred over approximately a two day period in September and was in stores in October. The girls had only had two number one hits at that point, so this was all about taking advantage of their new found popularity, artistry be damned. I'm not a fan of a lot of the British Invasion stuff because the sound doesn't appeal to me, even when they cover R&B. The Liverpool album would've been so much better if Motown hadn't tried to recreate the sound of the British groups and instead had done all those same songs but in the style of Motown. I think the album may have sold better and would today be regarded as a classic.

    The Country album was a two year old idea by the time the album was released. The first sessions were conducted in early 1963 and the rest of the songs were recorded in late 1964, some of the early 1963 songs were re-recorded in late 1964 too. Had the Supremes been a popular act for quite a few years at this point, I think trying to do what Ray Charles did could've worked. But having a group known for singing "baby" songs for roughly six months or so, I imagine people laughed when they saw the C&W album in record stores. There was no way that album had much more of a chance than The Supremes Sing and Perform Opera or Yodeling With the Supremes. Artistically it turned out very well. The harmonies are fantastic. But commercially, this was bound to fail.

    Sam Cooke tribute was a brilliant idea, but ultimately lacked one of the things that was keeping the Supremes popular: the Funk Bros musicianship. Once again the track is a west coast track. Where a beautiful rendering of Sam's songs could've taken place between the Supremes and their obvious ability to bring to the table the same kind of attitude Sam brought, with his ability to bridge the gap, and the Funk Bros Motowning the tunes up, instead we get nice singing for sure, but a stale musician sound, IMO. Once again, if done right, this album probably would've sold more [[I think the drab album cover didn't help) and would today be considered a real classic.

    As for Tribute to the Girls, I thought "Our Day Will Come" and "People" would've been considered for this. I wonder if after the last of the concept trilogy of 64/65, Gordy and company finally realized that if they were going to take the Supremes from Motown to the beyond, then they best give more attention to the next concept project? Certainly R&H was given quality attention. And while the full album never materialized, even the Disney cuts were high quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Sam Cooke tribute was a brilliant idea, but ultimately lacked one of the things that was keeping the Supremes popular: the Funk Bros musicianship. Once again the track is a west coast track. Where a beautiful rendering of Sam's songs could've taken place between the Supremes and their obvious ability to bring to the table the same kind of attitude Sam brought, with his ability to bridge the gap, and the Funk Bros Motowning the tunes up, instead we get nice singing for sure, but a stale musician sound, IMO. Once again, if done right, this album probably would've sold more [[I think the drab album cover didn't help) and would today be considered a real classic.
    I think the one exception was "Aint That Good News", which IMO is the real highlight of the album. The band was kickin ass on that one.

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    yeah i think the Sam Cooke tracks are a bit more sterile than the typical motown tracks of that era. I think it works overall though. i find the sound less jarring than the attempts at the syphonic sound with the album tracks in Symphony or some of the tracks on There's a Place. HDH did the MOR tunes on Symphony and then they also did the tracks for Broadway to Hollywood. talk about development!! listen to how much better produced things are by 66, 67. the sound is rich and balanced. you're not getting overpowering trumpets or strings/treble being mixed too high.

    also compare Harvey's work on Sam Cooke to his later duet productions with Marvin and Tammie. again, great development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    The Liverpool album would've been so much better if Motown hadn't tried to recreate the sound of the British groups and instead had done all those same songs but in the style of Motown. I think the album may have sold better and would today be regarded as a classic.
    I did dig a lot of the British Invasion but the Motown Sound in 1964 sounded so much better [[and has withstood the test of time so much better, too!). I agree, Motown should have given the album "the Detroit Sound", as it was known then, and released it later [[say in December), by which time they could have had a greater choice of songs.
    I imagine people laughed when they saw the C&W album in record stores. There was no way that album had much more of a chance than
    The Supremes Sing and Perform Opera
    or
    Yodeling With the Supremes
    . Artistically it turned out very well. The harmonies are fantastic. But commercially, this was bound to fail.
    Yes, I thought this was very odd even then. [[LOL, I'm on board for Yodeling With the Supremes). Again, more thought and care should have been taken, if they were going to even do CW&P. I think the Stevie Wonder tunes [[Baby Doll, Sunset) were good examples of "Detroit Goes to Nashville" and I really liked the Supremes' vocal interpretations of originals [[Funny, Makes No Difference Now, and especially Lazybones). Not crazy about the early 1963-64 cuts.
    Sam Cooke tribute was a brilliant idea, but ultimately lacked one of the things that was keeping the Supremes popular: the Funk Bros musicianship. … A beautiful rendering of Sam's songs could've taken place between the Supremes and their obvious ability to bring to the table the same kind of attitude Sam brought, with his ability to bridge the gap.
    Yeah, this really could have used the Funk Brothers. It could have really been a special tribute. Good News was definitely the best cut, and demonstrates that making it a real group effort [[a few leads by Florence & Mary) would have made it a classic Supremes album.
    re: Tribute to the Girls: This would have been so appropriate as a concept album in 1965 [[and far less jarring!). The British Invasion conquered many American pop genres [[except Motown, of course), leaving the Supremes, and to a lesser extent, Martha & the Vandellas and the Marvelettes, to hold up the Girl Groups banner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah i think the Sam Cooke tracks are a bit more sterile than the typical motown tracks of that era. I think it works overall though. i find the sound less jarring than the attempts at the syphonic sound with the album tracks in Symphony or some of the tracks on There's a Place. HDH did the MOR tunes on Symphony and then they also did the tracks for Broadway to Hollywood. talk about development!! listen to how much better produced things are by 66, 67. the sound is rich and balanced. you're not getting overpowering trumpets or strings/treble being mixed too high.

    also compare Harvey's work on Sam Cooke to his later duet productions with Marvin and Tammie. again, great development.
    I really liked the Symphony tracks. That album introduced me to "adult" songs I wouldn't have listened to, being so young and caught up with the Beatles, Beach Boys & Motown. I thought Stranger In Paradise, With A Song In My Heart, Without A Song were absolutely beautiful. Truth be told, I think this was when I began to think of Diana Ross as a singer, a voice integral to and yet apart from my favorite group, the Supremes. Mind you, I couldn't even imagine back then a Diana Ross & the Supremes. It would be as unthinkable as John Lennon & the Beatles or Brian Wilson & the Beach Boys.

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    oh i like the symphony lp too and certainly appreciate it's role in developing the girls'
    broader appeal. I just think the productions would have been even more amazing had the producers had more experience. of course everything has it's time and place. and in late 65, it was an amazing next step in their career. i just don't think the productions hold up quite as well as the R&H tracks.

    but i'm splitting hairs here

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post

    Yes, I thought this was very odd even then. [[LOL, I'm on board for Yodeling With the Supremes). Again, more thought and care should have been taken, if they were going to even do CW&P. I think the Stevie Wonder tunes [[Baby Doll, Sunset) were good examples of "Detroit Goes to Nashville" and I really liked the Supremes' vocal interpretations of originals [[Funny, Makes No Difference Now, and especially Lazybones). Not crazy about the early 1963-64 cuts.

    Yeah, this really could have used the Funk Brothers. It could have really been a special tribute. Good News was definitely the best cut, and demonstrates that making it a real group effort [[a few leads by Florence & Mary) would have made it a classic Supremes album.
    Believe it or not, I think Florence would've really shined on the yodeling album.

    On C&W, Mary should've probably done the lead on "Nothing Can Change This Love". I think she may have shined on "You Send Me" also. Why they didn't record "Sentimental Reasons", I wonder? They include it in the Sam Cooke medley. Florence should've sung "A Change Is Gonna Come". That song was not right for Diana at all. And while I stand by my opinion that the album needed the Funk Bros, the Sam Cooke album is one of my favorites because ultimately the girls sound great, but "Change Is Gonna Come" is the one skippable song on the set. I tend to skip "Only 16" too, but not as much as I skip "Change". Sometimes Motown got carried away with the Diana leads. She was great but she was not right for every damn song. There are definitely songs the other girls were better fits for.

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    i agree about Cooke. it's a fav album as it features the original lineup and does so prominently. Flo's lead is probably one of [[if not the) best lead she recorded throughout her recording career. IMO it's her strongest Motown lead and certainly better than any of the pablum done at ABC. Her intonation is perfect, her phrasing is amazing and she has the opportunity to both belt it out and sing it straight. marvelous

    the three part harmony throughout the album is also gorgeous. Bring it to me is a fav. cupid a close second.

    too bad Mary didn't have a bit more featured role other than the bass/alto line in Chain Gang.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    oh i like the symphony lp too and certainly appreciate it's role in developing the girls'
    broader appeal. I just think the productions would have been even more amazing had the producers had more experience. of course everything has it's time and place. and in late 65, it was an amazing next step in their career. i just don't think the productions hold up quite as well as the R&H tracks.

    but i'm splitting hairs here
    I agree with you Sup. Vocally I think the girls sound great on the Symphony cuts, but I definitely agree that the overall production pales compared to those type of songs that would be recorded throughout 1966 and 1967. Personally I still think Motown missed an opportunity to give the Supremes a true classic Motown album by making the Symphony album so MOR. I probably would've gone with:

    I Hear a Symphony
    Take Me Where You Go
    It's All Your Fault
    Heat Wave [[1st version)
    Too Hurt to Cry
    It's the Same Old Song [[1st version)

    My World Is Empty
    A Lover's Concerto
    Any Girl In Love
    Too Much Too Little Too Soon
    Everything Is Good About You
    He's All I Got

    Maybe consider "Yesterday" and "Unchained Melody" with different tracks suitable to a Motown album.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    On C&W, Mary should've probably done the lead on "Nothing Can Change This Love". I think she may have shined on "You Send Me" also. Why they didn't record "Sentimental Reasons", I wonder? They include it in the Sam Cooke medley. Florence should've sung "A Change Is Gonna Come". That song was not right for Diana at all. And while I stand by my opinion that the album needed the Funk Bros, the Sam Cooke album is one of my favorites because ultimately the girls sound great, but "Change Is Gonna Come" is the one skippable song on the set. I tend to skip "Only 16" too, but not as much as I skip "Change". Sometimes Motown got carried away with the Diana leads. She was great but she was not right for every damn song. There are definitely songs the other girls were better fits for.
    Florence should definitely have done "A Change Is Gonna Come", my favorite Sam Cooke song. I could see all three sharing the lead, as in "It Makes No Difference Now" from CW&P. Mary would be great on "Nothing Can Change This Love", and "Only Sixteen". I don't care much for "Sentimental Reasons" in their live medley, so I don't miss it here.
    Believe it or not, I think Florence would've really shined on the yodeling album.
    I'm hearing it right now!

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    more gems were found. so hopefully not much longer

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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    more gems were found. so hopefully not much longer
    Thatís great news. May I ask where you heard this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vgalindo View Post
    That’s great news. May I ask where you heard this?
    after the release of the last diana ross solo album , several tracks were found. they will be released on the upcoming Ross 78. of all the albums, I think I am more or less excited about this album in regards to the confusion as to why they used the track list they did, while other gems were left in the vaults. this could have been a much stronger album obviously. cant wait to see the new expanded edition.

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    i wonder if Russ , who mixed this album, has any memories...thoughts

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