What if Mary hadn’t been dropped

[sup_fan]

Absolutely not Jobete. Motown never thought Mary Wilson could carry the group. Gordy thought when Jean and Lynda left and Mary married Pedro that he was finished with the Supremes and the Ferrers. He had a rude awakening. Despite Mary's fan constantly trying to build her up, Hollywood thought Mary to be a pretty, sexy lady with no real singing or acting ability. While the other ladies in the group who got married and then pregnant were able to be supported by their husbands, Mary could not. She HAD to work. She even worked while being pregnant three times which is hard to do.

I don't defend Motown easily but as a businessman myself I can look back and see the trepadations Motown had with the Supremes after 1973. The group had become inconsistent with too much turnover of members. For a while in late 1973, Mary Wilson was the only Supreme. Motown let 1974 come and go to make sure that this grouping would stay together; as it were there was talk of Cindy only being temporary and then Mary started the rumor that Lynda was only hired as a temp Supreme. Not true, Lynda Laurence signed full recording and performing contracts with Motown.

As I said in a previous post, Motown had to take notice of the rave reviews the group was getting with Scherrie. Mary's notices were also improving. But there was ambivalence about Cindy the entire time of her second tenure.

Mary and Pedro decided to start Supremes, Inc in an effort to insure proper payments to each lady. Motown was obviously not happy with that nor were they happy with Mary securing outside management. I lost count of how many managers the latter two groupings of Supremes went through. Some only lasted a few weeks. Between Motown, Supremes Inc and other outsiders there were tons of interest conflicts.

At one point when Susaye joined and High Energy gave the group a well deserved comeback, Gordy approached Mary to take full control of the group again. This of course would put Pedro out of work. She said no, another bad move. Perhaps with the Motown brass in charge some stability could have been returned to the group. But that also is pretty speculative. As the 70s went on the group Supremes continued to spiral downward.

There were constant arguments between the ladies and Pedro which Mary did not involve herself in. She should have. Cindy was fired for being defiant to Pedro. Scherrie Payne is a sweet, non-confrontational and spiritual woman. Eventually, along with Su, she too was answering back. After Mary left Scherrie sued Supremes Inc and received an out of court settlement.

The lawsuits between Mary, Motown and Scherrie were such an embarrassing end to a legendary group. When it was announced that Mary was leaving and getting a solo deal, she came back from the last tour of England to find out that Pedro had NOT secured any such solo deal and Motown was clearly not interested in a solo Mary. Thus the S. American dates and yet a new grouping out on the road with lawsuits raging.

amazing!!

i heard much of the problems with Pedro and S&S was that both women were at different points told they could possibly help write and/or produce the Sups. but then those plans never materialized. is that true?

when exactly did mary meet pedro and when did he take over things?

[sup_fan]

Mary and Pedro decided to start Supremes, Inc in an effort to insure proper payments to each lady. Motown was obviously not happy with that nor were they happy with Mary securing outside management. I lost count of how many managers the latter two groupings of Supremes went through. Some only lasted a few weeks. Between Motown, Supremes Inc and other outsiders there were tons of interest conflicts.

i didn't realize that Motown was so against the establishment of Sup Inc. in mary's book she positions it that they were "probably relieved that they didn't have to deal with things" anymore.

Also seems that the manager issue was a problem even during the Jean era. there was the Wayne guy the helped hook them up with Webb and is pictured with MJL during their first photo shoot. but then mary talks about switching to Shelly B again and he was the one that helped arrange the late summer/fall tour with the Temps

[RanRan79]

As for Mary's stage presence, to say she has none is absolutely untrue. She can be very personable on stage, and people who attend her shows get a real treat.

I agree. But beyond being personable, Mary is a student of the Motown way of presenting one's self onstage. The way she walks, the way she stands, the way she plays with the audience...I realize not everyone cares for her voice, just like I realize not everyone cares for Diana's voice, but some of these knocks don't make sense. Mary Wilson had the goods.

[jobeterob]

Sounds like Mary could have used lessons from Otis Williams on how to run a group

I’ve often wondered if the Supremes couldn’t have lasted like the Temptations with different management and leadership

The one big difference is that the Temptations didn’t have one only lead singer that stood out so sharply from the others

[sup_fan]

I agree. But beyond being personable, Mary is a student of the Motown way of presenting one's self onstage. The way she walks, the way she stands, the way she plays with the audience...I realize not everyone cares for her voice, just like I realize not everyone cares for Diana's voice, but some of these knocks don't make sense. Mary Wilson had the goods.

i'd say there were many different "phases" of Mary's stage presence. some i prefer to others

in the DMF era, she comes across as the sweetest of girls and perfect. she looks perfect, she dances the choreography perfect. she'd give a sorts of sexy glances, winks, smiles and wiggles. enchanting

in the DMC era, sometimes she came across as a wonderfully more mature version of her DMF persona. and other times she came across to me as a bit forced. Like the Irving Berlin medley on Sullivan. she's executing the choreography with a bit too much energy. and acting out too many of the words with choreography.

in the 70s, too many times she's coming across too contrived. she's still trying to keep up the Supreme Glamour Girl image too much. talking about shopping and girly things in interviews. And she's getting a bit too carried away with the choreography. like in Love The one You're with - i'm like damn girl! slow down a little. This got even more carried away in the Scherrie era at times. like the Live in Montreau footage. she's trying too hard and dancing too hard. it isn't in every live appearance. but a lot

then later in the MSS era she's too lackadaisical on the choreography. she's sloppy in her execution whereas in the 60s, she was precision personified.

[sup_fan]

Mary is a great entertainer and a strong singer. but i don't know if in the 60s or 70s she really had the presence to be the "mistress of ceremonies", to use a phrase i said regarding Jean too.

[RanRan79]

The single made it into the Billboard Top 40, the first time The Supremes placed there in four years. [[On other charts the single placed significantly lower).

It hit number 25 on the r&b chart.

It gradually got to the point that the ladies were competing with each other on stage rather than trying to emulate a group sound. It was the perverbial every-man-for-himself syndrome.

That's been my critique of the last grouping, and exactly why of all the lineups my least favorite is MSS. A hot mess.

[RanRan79]

Was not aware that Mary had so many deals offered to her. Casablanca, Atlantic, Merv Griffin, Fantasy. These all sound like great deals. Mary wanted a solo career so badly, why, after she left the Official Supremes, did she pass these deals up and continue to tour singing Supremes' songs with the Supremes' name in her billing? [[Mary Wilson & the Supremes, THE SUPREMES' Mary Wilson, Mary Wilson of THE SUPREMES etc.)

And thank you in advance for your replyi

I'm dying over here! This dude expects people to believe that Mary had all these label offers after she left Motown, but it took her some 12 or so years to finally sign with someone? And CEO Records? Who the hell is CEO? I believe Mary had all those offers just like I believe Variety Chenvert is really Florence's daughter born in December 1967 and Tommy Chapman died months before Florence, and Variety was with Diana Ross at a Detroit photo shoot when Flo was taken to the hospital and Diana dropped everything to go and see about her [[per Variety's claims in her new video). Yup, I give them both about the same amount of credibility.

[RanRan79]

Jean was a lead singer. Diana was a lead singer AND mistress of the ceremonies. i'm not sure jean ever really captured the later enough

Great point! To some degree, lead singers come a dime a dozen, but it takes a special person to be able to combine that talent with the ability to captivate even when the music isn't playing. I don't think Jean had it in her. Actually I don't think any of the other Supremes had it in them except maybe Florence, who could use her comedic talents to pull all the songs together.

[sup_fan]

It hit number 25 on the r&b chart.



That's been my critique of the last grouping, and exactly why of all the lineups my least favorite is MSS. A hot mess.

from a studio perspective, MSS was phenomenal. but trying to recreate that live would have been a challenge in any situation. but then you have Mary trying to emerge as a solo star and coming across as distracted from being part of a group. plus the every-woman-for-herself situation. combined with poor song choice for the live performances, inappropriate wardrobes, out of control choreography etc.

[BayouMotownMan]

Again, so many what-ifs!!

what are the details of Lynda's exit? did she want to leave, was it the pregnancy or did mary really want her out?

how much of the Jean/Mary tension existed while Cindy was there? did jean and mary start butting heads early on?

i love the jean recordings, for the most part, but i do see that there's a bit of a spark missing in the live performances. And not on every one. but sometimes jean was a little too shy, too awkward, too withdrawn. Of course she's following someone that blazed as brightly as the sun so it's a bit understandable. but i think if she'd been a bit more of a stronger, outgoing personality it might have helped continue the public interest.

Jean was a lead singer. Diana was a lead singer AND mistress of the ceremonies. i'm not sure jean ever really captured the later enough

I think Jean was difficult from the start. She wasn't prepared for the adulation and the invasion on her privacy. She was uncomfortable being escorted through crowds and was especially unnerved by the group's large gay and drag queen following. Jean is somewhat homophobic. This was her first introduction to these people and it unnerved her.

She got on fine with Mary for a while mostly because she was so new that she kept her mouth shut. When Lynda came on board, Jean was no longer the new girl. She began to speak up, and speak out. As the groups popularity continued to decline markedly she felt Mary was not standing up to Motown enough. Like Florence Ballard had said, Jean could convince Mary to say and do certain things that Mary would agree to, and then Mary would cower when it came time to stand up. Finally in late 72 all three Supremes decided to give Motown a 1 yr ultimatum; either put more promotion and better material on the group or they'd leave for another label. Even if it meant giving up the name. Well the year came and went, and again Mary didn't go through with the agreement.

More than anything Jean, unlike Diana, grew to dislike that she was doing 80% of the work and Mary was making more money than she. This bothered Jean tremendously and through most of 72 and 73 she had pretty much had it with Mary, and then when she met her husband, she'd had it with the group.

Lynda Laurence left on her own, she was not fired or pushed out as many have said. Jean had met Pedro once or twice but had already made her decision to leave before Mary got deeply involved. After the August 1973 dates, Lynda was pregnant and went to Mary's house to talk about her future with The Supremes. Mary was wanting Lynda to share leads with her for the entire act and future recording dates.

Then Lynda met Pedro. When Mary told Lynda that Pedro would be another Berry Gordy and was going to take over the group, Lynda immediately had her attorney negotiate her release from Motown

[sup_fan]

how long were the "new" girls on their probationary period? i've heard that Jean was on salary for 18 months and then switched to royalties? so if we assume she started on Jan 1970, then by June 71 she'd be on royalties. but would the previous records be under the royalty payment or only future? they released Ladder in 70 while she was on salary and it was a huge hit. sold tons. Same with Stoned. but then when jean switched to royalties, did she start gathering royalties on Ladder and Stoned as they continued to sell [[even if only somewhat) or did she only earn royalties on the subsequent releases AFTER she switched from being salaried?

[BayouMotownMan]

If Jean Terrell got any royalties for record sales it was extremely limited. By the time she was entitled to royalties the groups sales power was greatly diminished. Add to this all the deductions Motown made to the ladies for unreleased recordings and other "expenses." Whatever an artist wanted at Motown, cars, furs, houses, they had a Motown credit card but these items were bought against future royalties. Jean probably earned most of her Supremes monies from personal appearances and tv appearances.

When a major artist like Diana, Tempts, Mary etc left Motown they were shocked to find out how little money they had. In many cases cars, houses, furs were owned by Motown and leased to the artist. Upon leaving they either had to buy these things out or return them.

[sup_fan]

Then Lynda met Pedro. When Mary told Lynda that Pedro would be another Berry Gordy and was going to take over the group, Lynda immediately had her attorney negotiate her release from Motown

but mary and pedro weren't even married until well into 74. and wasn't if after they were married that he became a sort of Road Manager? and then later in the MSC period he took over the full management. at least all this according to Mary's book

[marv2]

but mary and pedro weren't even married until well into 74. and wasn't if after they were married that he became a sort of Road Manager? and then later in the MSC period he took over the full management. at least all this according to Mary's book

What you said is true. What he said is not!

[BayouMotownMan]

What you said is true. What he said is not!

Mary met Pedro in June 1973. By August he was living with her.

But of course Marv knows this.

BTW Marv, I faxed your highly jaded reasons for Lionel Richie leaving the Commodores and your comments on the groups behalf of Lionel to his attorney in July

[BayouMotownMan]

What you said is true. What he said is not!

Also Miss Marv, I was at every show in August 1973 at Magic Mountain and Pedro was there. I met Jean's fiance and Trevor Lawrence as well. Willie was there too.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually Mary and Pedro had eloped in early 1974 as reported in the Feb 1974 newsletter from Randy Taraborrelli. The big wedding in Vegas later in the year was for the families.

[sup_fan]

i can't believe she got herself so swept away [[Diana Ross pun intended lol) with this guy

Imagine if Jean HAD stayed and mary tried to bring Pedro on as manager and turn the group over to him! lolol Jean would have cut Pedro "too short to shit" [[to quote Tony Turner from All That Glittered lol)

[sup_fan]

Absolutely not Jobete. Motown never thought Mary Wilson could carry the group.

while they probably wouldn't have been hugely successful, don't you think that if Mary asked to take over lead in the Sups after Diana left they would have gone along with it? i think berry and team would have agreed it wouldn't be the wisest decision but had she had the gumption to demand it, i think they would have said "ok - suit yourself"

[BayouMotownMan]

There is no way Berry Gordy or upper management would have let Mary take over leads after Diana left. Had Mary demanded such, she'd have been replaced

[BayouMotownMan]

i can't believe she got herself so swept away [[Diana Ross pun intended lol) with this guy

Imagine if Jean HAD stayed and mary tried to bring Pedro on as manager and turn the group over to him! lolol Jean would have cut Pedro "too short to shit" [[to quote Tony Turner from All That Glittered lol)

I'll tell you another little known fact that Marv2 will try to deny. Mary, Jean and Lynda were performing at a hotel in San Juan in mid 1973. I forget the name of the hotel, Eden Roc maybe? Anyway, they were in the lobby of the hotel when Pedro walked by and Mary and Lynda blew their Bad Weather whistles at him. He chatted with them and said he'd be at their show that night.

He in fact came to both shows. After the shows when the ladies retired to their rooms, Pedro from the lobby called...Lynda! He invited her to join him for a drink, she declined saying she was engaged to marry Trevor Lawrence.

Then he called Mary.

I heard that story from Miss Lynda herself.

[TheMotownManiac]

I firmly believe that Motown screwed up royally where Mary was concerned. Her vocals and work with the Supremes, particularly on their 1975 self-titled album,"High Energy," and "Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye," were especially good. Had Motown made her first album ballads and pretty songs, such as the ones on those last Supremes LP's, she could have certainly had a chance at solo recording success. She could have found an audience in the quiet storm arena, but Motown screwed her over royally by putting out that less than stellar disco album. Not only was 80% of the material on that album weak, but it also failed to showcase Mary's voice in a positive light. Then, when she was on the verge of recording music more suited to her and the market, Motown tossed her aside. Shame on Motown!

As for Mary's stage presence, to say she has none is absolutely untrue. She can be very personable on stage, and people who attend her shows get a real treat. Sometimes when she sings the Supremes' hits, they come across as a little sloppy, but people still love them and love her. When she sings ballads and songs better suited to her voice, she can actually soar. I have seen her in concert many times, and I am always amazed by the strength of her performance. Awhile back, a friend who had never liked Ms. Wilson's voice went with me to one of the shows, and after we left, he said he was blown away by what he had heard. He didn't expect her voice to be so good, but it was.

Motown blew it as they intentionally screwed Mary over.

Motown didn’t see a potential in Mary - why is that a screw over? Why is Motown obligated to promote a singer they see no future in or forever be a villain in her fans’ eyes? NO ONE in the recording industry wanted to put money and time into Mary - why blame Motown? Why not blame Clive Davis? Or Comlubia? Geez, you act like because you think Mary was bankable that Motown screwed her over for not agreeing with you. Get over yourself for a second and look at the big picture: there was no interest in Mary by any major or secondary label. Ever. That is not a crime. Mary of the 70s was a capable ballad singer with a not-too-popular-voice who led her group The Supremes into looking like rubes on the majority of their last tv Appearances. Capable singers are a dime a dozen - much more was needed to become a star. Mary was pretty and could be stunning, but she acted like a fool on TV too many times to attract a contract. I’m sorry, but I do not believe she turned down any offers to sign.

I wish ash things had gone Mary’s way - but she persevered beautifully in spite of no support. Good for her!

[TheMotownManiac]

while they probably wouldn't have been hugely successful, don't you think that if Mary asked to take over lead in the Sups after Diana left they would have gone along with it? i think berry and team would have agreed it wouldn't be the wisest decision but had she had the gumption to demand it, i think they would have said "ok - suit yourself"

Never. Not in a million years. Motown was into making money - it’d pretty obvious they did not see a dime in the sound of Mary Wilson. That would have been suicide for the group - as it is, her leads on released A-sides were a sales disaster with a charging average just above a blip on the hot 100.

Not in TEN million years.

[marv2]

i can't believe she got herself so swept away [[Diana Ross pun intended lol) with this guy

Imagine if Jean HAD stayed and mary tried to bring Pedro on as manager and turn the group over to him! lolol Jean would have cut Pedro "too short to shit" [[to quote Tony Turner from All That Glittered lol)

Uhhhh, I don't think so. Mr. Ferrer was not a punk! LOL!

[BayouMotownMan]

No Marv of course not. No punk Pedro. He was a wife beater. Remember nearly severing his wife's ear? Stripping her clothes off and throwing her into a cold night? And you defend this animal?

[marybrewster]

i'd say there were many different "phases" of Mary's stage presence. some i prefer to others

in the DMF era, she comes across as the sweetest of girls and perfect. she looks perfect, she dances the choreography perfect. she'd give a sorts of sexy glances, winks, smiles and wiggles. enchanting

in the DMC era, sometimes she came across as a wonderfully more mature version of her DMF persona. and other times she came across to me as a bit forced. Like the Irving Berlin medley on Sullivan. she's executing the choreography with a bit too much energy. and acting out too many of the words with choreography.

in the 70s, too many times she's coming across too contrived. she's still trying to keep up the Supreme Glamour Girl image too much. talking about shopping and girly things in interviews. And she's getting a bit too carried away with the choreography. like in Love The one You're with - i'm like damn girl! slow down a little. This got even more carried away in the Scherrie era at times. like the Live in Montreau footage. she's trying too hard and dancing too hard. it isn't in every live appearance. but a lot

then later in the MSS era she's too lackadaisical on the choreography. she's sloppy in her execution whereas in the 60s, she was precision personified.

There's a clip I've seen of MSS with Udo [[?); Mary is going for "sexy", laying across the top of a piano and sadly, it's anything but.

[milven]

There's a clip I've seen of MSS with Udo [[?); Mary is going for "sexy", laying across the top of a piano and sadly, it's anything but.

[blackguy69]

This thread has run its course and it seems we’re back to normal around here

[TheMotownManiac]

I think MSS sound great on that clip and Susaye is fab on her solo. I’m ok with Mary on the piano, it wasn’t sexy but I didn’t think it was embarrassing. Actually, this is one of the best MSS appearance on TV I’ve seen.

[TheMotownManiac]

Uhhhh, I don't think so. Mr. Ferrer was not a punk! LOL!

Men who beat their wives - especially when pregnant, are nothing BUT punks! Whether or not he had reason to question her fidelity is conjecture, but, even if he did, beating a woman is base. He should just have left her if she was cheating. And I don’t think she was anyway, but if so, it was just at the beginning of Mary and Pedro.

[Ollie9]

I think MSS sound great on that clip and Susaye is fab on her solo. I’m ok with Mary on the piano, it wasn’t sexy but I didn’t think it was embarrassing. Actually, this is one of the best MSS appearance on TV I’ve seen.

I agree, this is definitely the best performance i have seen of MSS on tv. Susaye Greene is a far more versatile singer then the lovely CB, and its so nice to seem in laid back mode. There really was so much potential on show here.
They sounded sophisticated singing together on recordings. That image was diluted in live performances by their lousy, frantic choreography. Even when singing ballads it was overcooked. I so wish they had gone for a more sophisticated and serene presentation. With that presentation in mind Songs such as "Sweet Dream Machine" and "We Should Be Closer Together" could have done well if released as singles. Quality songs and production that still sounds fresh today.

[mistercarter2u]

I stand by what I said. I believe Mary did deserve a chance at Motown, and while Motown did give her that chance by releasing the "Mary Wilson" album, they did not truly get behind her or give her a real opportunity to prove herself as an artist. Her album just wasn't good, and it wasn't really the direction in which she had hoped to go, yet it was put out anyway. A bad disco album that was released after disco had peaked! Just a crappy decision all around. And yes, Motown was involved in that decision. I wonder if, due to the bad blood that existed between Mary and the company, they tossed the album out with full awareness that it would tank.

You tell me to get over myself. What a nasty remark. We do have a right to respectfully disagree on this forum.

Motown didn’t see a potential in Mary - why is that a screw over? Why is Motown obligated to promote a singer they see no future in or forever be a villain in her fans’ eyes? NO ONE in the recording industry wanted to put money and time into Mary - why blame Motown? Why not blame Clive Davis? Or Comlubia? Geez, you act like because you think Mary was bankable that Motown screwed her over for not agreeing with you. Get over yourself for a second and look at the big picture: there was no interest in Mary by any major or secondary label. Ever. That is not a crime. Mary of the 70s was a capable ballad singer with a not-too-popular-voice who led her group The Supremes into looking like rubes on the majority of their last tv Appearances. Capable singers are a dime a dozen - much more was needed to become a star. Mary was pretty and could be stunning, but she acted like a fool on TV too many times to attract a contract. I’m sorry, but I do not believe she turned down any offers to sign.

I wish ash things had gone Mary’s way - but she persevered beautifully in spite of no support. Good for her!

[sup_fan]

I'll tell you another little known fact that Marv2 will try to deny. Mary, Jean and Lynda were performing at a hotel in San Juan in mid 1973. I forget the name of the hotel, Eden Roc maybe? Anyway, they were in the lobby of the hotel when Pedro walked by and Mary and Lynda blew their Bad Weather whistles at him. He chatted with them and said he'd be at their show that night.

He in fact came to both shows. After the shows when the ladies retired to their rooms, Pedro from the lobby called...Lynda! He invited her to join him for a drink, she declined saying she was engaged to marry Trevor Lawrence.

Then he called Mary.

I heard that story from Miss Lynda herself.

hahaha talk about a twist of fate!! what if Miss Lynda had been tempted to be Pedro's sugar momma! hahah

[sup_fan]

There's a clip I've seen of MSS with Udo [[?); Mary is going for "sexy", laying across the top of a piano and sadly, it's anything but.

hahaha i know - that's a fav [[overall) clip of mine. love Susaye's brief solo. and scherrie is stunning. then you have mary lounging on the piano top like some cheshire cat and when she starts her brief solo line she sounds like Gravel Gert!

funny how posture helps with vocal performance

[sup_fan]

I agree, this is definitely the best performance i have seen of MSS on tv. Susaye Greene is a far more versatile singer then the lovely CB, and its so nice to seem in laid back mode. There really was so much potential on show here.
They sounded sophisticated singing together on recordings. That image was diluted in live performances by their lousy, frantic choreography. Even when singing ballads it was overcooked. I so wish they had gone for a more sophisticated and serene presentation. With that presentation in mind Songs such as "Sweet Dream Machine" and "We Should Be Closer Together" could have done well if released as singles. Quality songs and production that still sounds fresh today.

i agree!! shame that Scherrie also didn't really have a chance to sing any ballads. Sweet Dream is about the closest we get from her and it's an amazing song! I think mary did very fine work on many of the ballads but would love have also heard scherrie's interpretations.

Sweet Dream should have been incorporated into the act.

[sup_fan]

I know we've gotten a bit off course in this thread - lolol surprise surprise!

many people have mentioned how the MSS lineup was great on record but weak live. the act was tired, too many cabaret and show tunes, wrong wardrobe, etc

So let's pretend it's late 1976/77 - what would you have them do live?

Let yourself go - fun exciting opener

Disco Supreme medley - Where do i go from here [[scherrie lead), You keep me hanging on [[scherrie lead), Early Morning love [[mary lead), Love is like an itching in my heart [[susaye lead), You keep me moving on [[scherrie lead)

High Energy [[susaye lead)

Love medley - Love will keep us together, Love Hangover, Love Train

Supremes Hits Medley - start with a call out to Sister Sup Diana and how they love her new hit Love Hangover which they just sang. do the 15 year anniversary toast, Then go into medley of Stop, You Can't Hurry Love, Reflections, Nathan Jones, Up the Ladder to the Roof

Stoned Love

Mary Solo - maybe do the medley of her two ballads from High Energy. or maybe You Are the Heart of me

You're what's missing in my life

intermission

Sweet Dream Machine

Dream genie segment

mary solo - A song for you.

Body heat

he's my man

You're My Driving Wheel - intro of band

I'm gonna let my heart do the walking

[marv2]

i agree!! shame that Scherrie also didn't really have a chance to sing any ballads. Sweet Dream is about the closest we get from her and it's an amazing song! I think mary did very fine work on many of the ballads but would love have also heard scherrie's interpretations.

Sweet Dream should have been incorporated into the act.

Have you ever heard Scherrie Payne sing "My World Is Empty Without You" with the Supreme? She turned it into a ballad and it worked very nicely. She sang it that way all during her time as a member of the Supremes. She still sings it that way today in her shows with Susaye and Joyce.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually Jean Terrell did it as a ballad first. It's on the Live in Japan lp. Scherrie used the same arrangement and gave it a more blues feel. LOL I remember some of us fans were a little thunderstruck when Scherrie ad-libbed "I want your warm and tender body next to mine in the midnight hours baby baby." No Supreme had ever sang that kind line before.

[TheMotownManiac]

I stand by what I said. I believe Mary did deserve a chance at Motown, and while Motown did give her that chance by releasing the "Mary Wilson" album, they did not truly get behind her or give her a real opportunity to prove herself as an artist. Her album just wasn't good, and it wasn't really the direction in which she had hoped to go, yet it was put out anyway. A bad disco album that was released after disco had peaked! Just a crappy decision all around. And yes, Motown was involved in that decision. I wonder if, due to the bad blood that existed between Mary and the company, they tossed the album out with full awareness that it would tank.

You tell me to get over myself. What a nasty remark. We do have a right to respectfully disagree on this forum.

I apologize - I didn’t mean to infer your opinion is not respected or as valid as any.

“Get over yourself” was in response to you suggesting Mary was screwed over by Motown. My point being that just because YOU think Mary deserved whatever you wanted her to get, obviously Motown didn’t - nor did they owe her that, so I suggest she was not screwed over. I suggest Mary did not, in the 70s, have the chops for a successful solo career and got the attention her record company youths she deserved. Record companies are there only to make money - if someone with a nickel saw a dime in Mary, they’d go for it. If Motown didn’t give Mary the support that some felt she deserved, it was because they didn’t see a return in it. No label did. Perhaps they were wrong. Perhaps Mary may have out sold Whitney and Tina and Diana and Janet,

[jobeterob]

No record company saw much - a background voice sometimes behind Diana Ross; a voice that wasn’t distinctive and someone who wasn’t up to working hard

No takers

[RanRan79]

Mary would've gotten a record deal if she had gone after one. She didn't. She wasn't a go getter, and one has to wonder if Mary would've ever found success in the music business at all if it hadn't been for Flo's and Diana's determination to make it. [[Not that Mary wasn't an integral part of their success or an important factor in the things that set the Supremes apart from the competition...my point more so being that it was Flo and Diana who drove the Primettes/Supremes car in the early days. I don't see Mary pushing the group forward.) It's been a long time since I sat down and read Mary's second book, but I don't recall anything written where she talks about how she was constantly knocking on doors and chasing deals. She talks about the conversation with the one dude who was interested in her and then died, but does she mention anything else? With her connections in the biz, wouldn't it have been a good idea to make some calls, get some auditions, shop herself around? I don't remember her writing that she ever did that.

Clearly Mary is talented and when I look through random music in my collection and see the names of some of the people who had record deals in the late 70s and throughout the 80s and then read how apparently Mary was so limitedly talented that no one could have ever wanted a thing to do with her voice, I laugh. Maybe I shouldn't laugh. After all, Mary couldn't possibly compete with the multitude of record deal offers that her ex group mates were getting. Remember all those bidding wars on Scherrie and Susaye and Lynda? Yeah, I don't either.

[BayouMotownMan]

Again, so many what-ifs!!

what are the details of Lynda's exit? did she want to leave, was it the pregnancy or did mary really want her out?

how much of the Jean/Mary tension existed while Cindy was there? did jean and mary start butting heads early on?

i love the jean recordings, for the most part, but i do see that there's a bit of a spark missing in the live performances. And not on every one. but sometimes jean was a little too shy, too awkward, too withdrawn. Of course she's following someone that blazed as brightly as the sun so it's a bit understandable. but i think if she'd been a bit more of a stronger, outgoing personality it might have helped continue the public interest.

Jean was a lead singer. Diana was a lead singer AND mistress of the ceremonies. i'm not sure jean ever really captured the later enough

Lynda's exit was quite simple. It was HER decision. Marv has perpetuated the myth that Lynda was fired. I have verified through Randy Taraborrelli and Lynda herself that she asked to be released. Lynda was pregnant. Jean had left and Mary wanted Lynda to take on most of Jean's lead parts. Lynda is very business oriented like Jean and knew that Jean was unhappy doing most of the work and being compensated less than Mary. So she said if she had to work pregnant she wanted more compensation. Then she met Pedro. That was the deal breaker. She wanted out. It was perfectly clear to all parties concerned that Motown had lost all interest in the group. Their concentration was on Ross, Wonder, Gaye, Tempts and J5. All others had to wait their turns so to speak. The Supremes were now a traveling oldies act.

Mary Wilson has said publically that working with Jean was tough. Worse than Ross in fact. The glamour image wore off with Jean quickly. Black women were asserting their rights and the afros and jeans were the funky look of the day. Like Flo, Jean felt the heavy gowns and pancake makeup was fake. Cindy was able to communicate with Jean better than Mary and Cindy became the peace maker. Fans quickly took a disliking to Jean as she would often time refuse to come out of her dressing room and sign their lps after a show. Jean felt she had done her job on stage, was tired after performing and just wanted to go home. She didn't understand that being a Supreme was a 24 hr job. When Lynda came on, problems between Jean and Mary intensified. Jean felt Mary was a puppet and would not stand up to Motown management. Jean may have been the first and only Supreme to actually read her royalty statements. She strongly disliked what she saw. In the summer of 1972 Jean, Mary and Lynda decided to give Motown another year to get their act together or they'd leave. When the year came and went and things only got worse, Mary decided to stay with Motown. Motown was all Mary knew, they were like family to her. Jean was extremely bitter about the failure of the Jimmy Webb and Stevie Wonder recordings and her attitude became unbearable. Finally when the group got savage reviews in Frisco in early 1973, their wig collection bombed, Jean had had it. Mary begged Jean not to leave. Jean had also met her husband and wanted to start a family. A strong Jehovah Witness, Jean was not the type of woman to neglect her babies for her career. Thus we only saw Jean sporadically in the years after leaving the Supremes.

Whereas most former members of the group embrace their legacy with The Supremes, Jean Terrell has gone on record many times bitter and disinterested in carrying on the legacy. When her marriage ended Scherrie approached her with the idea of the FLOs. Jean probably wanted the money moreso than any celebration of her Supreme years and even with Scherrie and Lynda began complaining that she was not being properly compensated. In 1992 she suddenly quit. Then after the millenium her manager talked her into a DVD biography where for the first time she talked about the Supremes in depth, though it was a slightly jaded view. When that didn't sell Jean washed her hands of show biz. She has steadfastly refused to participate in any of the CD compilations except the 70s Anthology.

[Boogiedown]

Did not realize Jean put out a "tell-all" DVD about being a Supreme.
Looked it up and was surprised by the indifference at this site at the time of its release.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/archives/...tml?1095779048

Maybe there were other threads showing more interest.

[lakeside]

I was boynextddoor back then. This was my review...and I'm sticking to it.
Basically Jean sitting in front of an aquarium prattling on about her stint with her brother and then with the Supremes. NO NEW information here. I'd heard it all before. Susaye and Scherrie were interviewed in front of a very badly lit home camera. They said NOTHING NEW, either. Scherrie should sue the way she looked! Yikes! I love all The Supremes and their music, but, this was much ado about nothing. There are 3 clips of Jean singing solo. "Feeling Good" was the best of the 3. There was also a short clip of Jeans Beauty Salon and some actor [[unknown to me) sitting there saying what good hair cuts he got there. I say, save your money and put it towards a new CD if Jean puts one out. The most interesting thing was watching the fish in the aquarium.

[BayouMotownMan]

Did not realize Jean put out a "tell-all" DVD about being a Supreme.
Looked it up and was surprised by the indifference at this site at the time of its release.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/archives/...tml?1095779048

Maybe there were other threads showing more interest.

I helped Jean with this DVD. She called me the day it came out and was very sweet and appreciative. I don't think the DVD had adequate distribution. Also, it only ran 47 minutes. Jean left out the change from Cindy to Lynda and didn't speak much on her solo lp or the FLOs. Some consider it amateurish but to me that gave it a charm.

[jobeterob]

Perhaps jean just really doesn’t care that much and doesn’t fuss and read a lot into things - things that were nothing other than vague happenings in daily life that some fans blow up into major events

[Boogiedown]

I helped Jean with this DVD. She called me the day it came out and was very sweet and appreciative. I don't think the DVD had adequate distribution. Also, it only ran 47 minutes. Jean left out the change from Cindy to Lynda and didn't speak much on her solo lp or the FLOs. Some consider it amateurish but to me that gave it a charm.

Nice!!

And how did one market such a thing? Maybe Jean timed it at 47 minutes hoping it'd get picked up as an hour tv special.

[Boogiedown]

I was boynextddoor back then. This was my review...and I'm sticking to it.
Basically Jean sitting in front of an aquarium prattling on about her stint with her brother and then with the Supremes. NO NEW information here. I'd heard it all before. Susaye and Scherrie were interviewed in front of a very badly lit home camera. They said NOTHING NEW, either. Scherrie should sue the way she looked! Yikes! I love all The Supremes and their music, but, this was much ado about nothing. There are 3 clips of Jean singing solo. "Feeling Good" was the best of the 3. There was also a short clip of Jeans Beauty Salon and some actor [[unknown to me) sitting there saying what good hair cuts he got there. I say, save your money and put it towards a new CD if Jean puts one out. The most interesting thing was watching the fish in the aquarium.

And a valid review it is at that ! Maybe you were the only one here who bought lt judging by the input.

[Boogiedown]

Perhaps jean just really doesn’t care that much and doesn’t fuss and read a lot into things - things that were nothing other than vague happenings in daily life that some fans blow up into major events

I get what you're saying , compared to the endless analysis of every single Supreme moment that gets reimagined here.
Still Jean made the DVD for some reason. She must've wanted to go on record about certain things from her perspective.