What if Mary hadn’t been dropped

**sup_fan** · 08-15-2018, 01:05 AM

While her solo debut wasn’t a strong seller, there are some good moments on the lp and the Gus Dungeon tracks for a follow up were amazing.

Not sure of timing is exactly right but when Diana left in 81, what if Motown had actually allowed Mary to do her second lp?

**jobeterob** · 08-15-2018, 03:27 AM

Mary Wilson does not have a commercial hit making voice

She needed to be part of a group with a distinctive lead singer to have hits

I don’t think it would make any difference what label she made it on to or who produced her; that’s the reason she never attracted any major producer during their hit making days

**milven** · 08-15-2018, 08:17 AM

Why would Mary have to wait for Diana to leave Motown before Mary was properly promoted? Eddie and David [[and later Dennis) came from the same group and were able to compete as soloists and have major hits. Plus, they were also competing with their former group.

I saw Mary's debut at New York, New York. It was okay, but she already concentrated too much on The Supremes. She did a cute part where she said she was a member of the group and then did a medley of ooooos and ahhhhhhhs. It was cute and funny. She should have left it at that and then said, "That was then, and this is now" and then start singing songs better suited for her like the wonderful ballads that she is capable of doing.
But she didn't.

And somewhere during that time frame, she was even doing previously committed dates for her Supremes Inc Comapany and performing as a Supreme even though that group already had a farewell performance.

Further confusing is that when her solo career was not launched properly or perhaps had trouble getting booking, she used the Supremes name in various billings. [[Mary Wilson and the Supremes, THE SUPREMES' mary wilson. mary wilson of THE SUPREMES, etc) She used the name and the Supremes catalogue as a crutch and basically was performing a Supremes show, not a solo show. That made it difficult for a solo career to emerge. Diana got criticized for almost dismissing her Supremes career in her concerts by singing a brief medley. But she did move her solo career forward.

Mary has all the qualities now that she needed then to have a solo career. She has the voice, ambition, aggressivenes,and condidence in herself. If she had those qualities then, perhaps the outcome would have been different.

But the majority of Mary's career has been touring as a "Supreme" and now the appearances are sometimes sharing the billing with the remnants of other Motown groups.

Diana, too,now is devoting a large part of her concert to Supremes songs.

But as I said in an earlier post, why see these former Supremes sing Supremes songs when the original voice of the group is still out there doing it?

I am a fan of Mary and have seen her in concert and in plays. But I will avoid any Supremes Mary show.

Mary is credited with keeping the Supreme Legacy alive. Maybe it's the reverse.

**sup_fan** · 08-15-2018, 10:18 AM

i agree that mary's voice limits the genres of music she might find success in. her debut lp is evidence of that. but i think the 4 Gus tracks are very strong. a bit more "tina turned/what's love got to do with it" sound. by late 80, disco was done for the most part. and frankly so was Diana at motown - she'd leave in just a few months.

Did motown miss the opportunity to have another female solo artist that wouldn't necessarily replace diana but would have allowed them to venture into more 80s rock and power ballad area?

**jim aka jtigre99** · 08-15-2018, 11:13 AM

Motown missed many opportunities where Mary and the post-Ross Supremes were concerned. Motown was not interested in Mary period. Her voice , being a contralto, never fit into Motown's vocal confinements. Mary's voice is distinctive and one of my favorites but pop music has always been more geared towards sopranos until the era of Sade and Anita Baker. The four unreleased songs were gems to anyone who has an ear for music but that music was not Motown's forte.

**PeaceNHarmony** · 08-15-2018, 03:46 PM

I don't think it would have made any difference whatsoever. Even viewing YT clips now of recent performances she has at best an average voice and no real stage presence.

**blackguy69** · 08-15-2018, 06:44 PM

I beg to differ. Despite some of the comments posted here, I think Mary would have had a better shot if Smokey was producing her. Not to slight Hal Davis but some of the material on that album needed a serious overhaul.

**blackguy69** · 08-15-2018, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by milven

Why would Mary have to wait for Diana to leave Motown before Mary was properly promoted? Eddie and David [[and later Dennis) came from the same group and were able to compete as soloists and have major hits. Plus, they were also competing with their former group.

I saw Mary's debut at New York, New York. It was okay, but she already concentrated too much on The Supremes. She did a cute part where she said she was a member of the group and then did a medley of ooooos and ahhhhhhhs. It was cute and funny. She should have left it at that and then said, "That was then, and this is now" and then start singing songs better suited for her like the wonderful ballads that she is capable of doing.
But she didn't.

And somewhere during that time frame, she was even doing previously committed dates for her Supremes Inc Comapany and performing as a Supreme even though that group already had a farewell performance.

Further confusing is that when her solo career was not launched properly or perhaps had trouble getting booking, she used the Supremes name in various billings. [[Mary Wilson and the Supremes, THE SUPREMES' mary wilson. mary wilson of THE SUPREMES, etc) She used the name and the Supremes catalogue as a crutch and basically was performing a Supremes show, not a solo show. That made it difficult for a solo career to emerge. Diana got criticized for almost dismissing her Supremes career in her concerts by singing a brief medley. But she did move her solo career forward.

Mary has all the qualities now that she needed then to have a solo career. She has the voice, ambition, aggressivenes,and condidence in herself. If she had those qualities then, perhaps the outcome would have been different.

But the majority of Mary's career has been touring as a "Supreme" and now the appearances are sometimes sharing the billing with the remnants of other Motown groups.

Diana, too,now is devoting a large part of her concert to Supremes songs.

But as I said in an earlier post, why see these former Supremes sing Supremes songs when the original voice of the group is still out there doing it?

I am a fan of Mary and have seen her in concert and in plays. But I will avoid any Supremes Mary show.

Mary is credited with keeping the Supreme Legacy alive. Maybe it's the reverse.

to put it in perspective Mary was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Since that South American tour wasn’t cancelled, scherrie and Susaye wasn’t doing it and being threatened to get sued, she had to make a choice. Unfortunately that choice stuck with her for quite a while.

**bradsupremes** · 08-15-2018, 09:54 PM

I truly believe Mary would have had a hit with "Save Me" and "Love Talk." Gus Dungeon was onto something with those tracks. Mary didn't have a commercial voice, but she really sells those songs and the production is outstanding.

**midnightman** · 08-15-2018, 10:21 PM

I honestly don't know. Maybe if business had been handled differently than it was, she would've been able to produce a successful niche where she didn't have to rely on the Supremes... she surely had more opportunities than your average ex-member of a hugely successful vocal group. All members of Labelle were able to make successful transitions as solo artists but the world's most successful group of all time only had one of them that managed to be a bigger success.

**jim aka jtigre99** · 08-16-2018, 07:20 AM

I don't think Mary had more opportunities, Motown gave her a solo contract to stop her lawsuit, which she had an excellent case. They half-heartedly produced one album that was a dance/disco LP. With these tracks she was let go because Motown said it was only doing dance music. Since her first LP was not her forte and was not a major hit, no other label would seriously think of her talents. Motown made it seem as if by choosing Diana and her great success that none of the others were talented or would do well. They all sang well and could have easily had a different type of hit but like ABC with Flo, they were trying to recreate a sound rather than focus on the talents. When the mass public thinks Stoned Love was by Diana Ross & The Supremes you know the record company succeeded

**jim aka jtigre99** · 08-16-2018, 08:19 AM

I also want to make clear that I am not making light or making a disparaging comment on Diana Ross' amazing talents, it just seems that Motown made it clear that she was chosen because she was the talent so her sound is associated with the success. Mary, Flo and all of the other members have their own sound which is different from Diana's vocals. Other record companies thinking they had a Supreme might expect them to sound just like Diana and when hearing ex-Supreme, that is what the mass public may expect as well. Mary has her own unique voice and had they been able to share more on television like they did with Jean and Scherrie, the mass public would have heard them aside from oohs and baby babys. Mary could have easily been Motown's female balladeer but I feel the company wanted Diana's sound to be the only sound. By the time Mary was solo, disco was raging and Motown was slowly losing its grip on the current sound. I think Motown needed to widen its scope at the time. We now have Mary, Scherrie and Susaye all out touring as well as Miss Ross and all sound amazing for being in their mid 70's. I just salute them all, something I feel Motown never really did

**sup_fan** · 08-16-2018, 10:47 AM

popular music has greatly expanded over the years. a zillion different "niche" genres have opened up. while i don't know the mary would ever have been selling the same volumes as Diana, i do think, if properly produced, she could have done a more. the ballads obviously, but the easier rock/soul too. similar to what Martha did with Richard Perry [[an album i adore from start to finish!). Maybe it's a bit more of a southern rock vibe rather than heavy rock.

But mary has also had an history of some serious business missteps. IMO there are quite a few times through the 60s sups, 70s sups and solo where alternate choices could have been made which might have greatly changed situations.

At the same time, motown was NOT interested in developing other female talent. it truly was focused solely on Diana. and not that diana didn't deserve every thing that came her way. But the thinking that by simultaneously developing other female singers would diminish Diana's impact is just inaccurate. Martha and Gladys Knight could have been made into much bigger stars while at Motown and in totally different styles.

**jobeterob** · 08-16-2018, 01:03 PM

At least Gladys had some impact away from Motown and Martha had quite a career at Motown, but Mary had no career outside of what she made of her involvement with Diana and the Supremes

**PeaceNHarmony** · 08-16-2018, 07:35 PM

Well I guess she could have had a hit or two - after all, so did Paula Abdul and Pia Zadora, and no one ever accused them of being good singers either - but as for a career, I just don't see it.

**TheMotownManiac** · 08-18-2018, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

I also want to make clear that I am not making light or making a disparaging comment on Diana Ross' amazing talents, it just seems that Motown made it clear that she was chosen because she was the talent so her sound is associated with the success. Mary, Flo and all of the other members have their own sound which is different from Diana's vocals. Other record companies thinking they had a Supreme might expect them to sound just like Diana and when hearing ex-Supreme, that is what the mass public may expect as well. Mary has her own unique voice and had they been able to share more on television like they did with Jean and Scherrie, the mass public would have heard them aside from oohs and baby babys. Mary could have easily been Motown's female balladeer but I feel the company wanted Diana's sound to be the only sound. By the time Mary was solo, disco was raging and Motown was slowly losing its grip on the current sound. I think Motown needed to widen its scope at the time. We now have Mary, Scherrie and Susaye all out touring as well as Miss Ross and all sound amazing for being in their mid 70's. I just salute them all, something I feel Motown never really did

No one wanted Mary to be their balladeer. Berry Gordy didn’t like her voice and, frankly, most folks I know agree. She has developed very well, but had nothing viable to offer to the public in the 60s or 70s why is why no one at Motown was behind her and no other labels touched her after she split. They wouldn’t even let her sub for Jean when she was sick - lynda, at her first show as a Supreme, was chosen to do the lead when she could not have been prepared as well as Mary - yet she was it or they were going to cancel. THATS how little belief Motown had in Mary as a soloist. I don’t think there was much anyone could have done to make her into a radio hit - and that’s what she wanted.

**TheMotownManiac** · 08-18-2018, 04:51 AM

[QUOTE=sup_fan;475767]i agree that mary's voice limits the genres of music she might find success in. her debut lp is evidence of that. but i think the 4 Gus tracks are very strong. a bit more "tina turned/what's love got to do with it" sound. by late 80, disco was done for the most part. and frankly so was Diana at motown - she'd leave in just a few months.

Did motown miss the opportunity to have another female solo artist that wouldn't necessarily replace diana but would have allowed them to venture into more 80s rock and power ballad area?[/QUOTE

No because even with her chosen style, Mary’s voice is still very limited in its appeal as her performance style. She’s not original in that genre and who needs Mary aping a Tina when we have the real Tina as the biggest female draw in the world? All labels had access to her and the industry would have been all over her if she had the goods.

‘’I believe the question should possibly be, “Would anyone be interested in Mary as a solo IF she had never been pre-sold to us as a member of our beloved Supremes?”

**TheMotownManiac** · 08-18-2018, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

popular music has greatly expanded over the years. a zillion different "niche" genres have opened up. while i don't know the mary would ever have been selling the same volumes as Diana, i do think, if properly produced, she could have done a more. the ballads obviously, but the easier rock/soul too. similar to what Martha did with Richard Perry [[an album i adore from start to finish!). Maybe it's a bit more of a southern rock vibe rather than heavy rock.

But mary has also had an history of some serious business missteps. IMO there are quite a few times through the 60s sups, 70s sups and solo where alternate choices could have been made which might have greatly changed situations.

At the same time, motown was NOT interested in developing other female talent. it truly was focused solely on Diana. and not that diana didn't deserve every thing that came her way. But the thinking that by simultaneously developing other female singers would diminish Diana's impact is just inaccurate. Martha and Gladys Knight could have been made into much bigger stars while at Motown and in totally different styles.

I disagree. In 6 years, Motown signed, developed and took Gladys from the chitlin circuit to national mainstream prominence, a Grammy, top ten album and The Copa.

BG never gave up on Martha despite many legit reasons to do so. The likes of Richard Perry and Clive Davis also failed to launch her and each had both professional and financial stakes in her career.

Motown developed one of the most successful female singers ever and 3 iconic male legends. That’s a helluva track record right there - yet they were working with Syreeta, Thelma, TATa and others.

**midnightman** · 08-18-2018, 09:01 AM

Interesting to point out, MotownManiac. But yeah that is telling that when Jean couldn't do the next few shows, Lynda was the one to replace her and brought Cindy back rather than let Mary do all the leads.

**Motown Eddie** · 08-18-2018, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by sup_fan

While her solo debut wasn’t a strong seller, there are some good moments on the lp and the Gus Dungeon tracks for a follow up were amazing.

Not sure of timing is exactly right but when Diana left in 81, what if Motown had actually allowed Mary to do her second lp?

I feel that we'll never know what would've happened if Motown allowed Mary Wilson to do her second solo album [[and aggressively promoted it across the board). I also believe that the only reason that Mary got to do her first LP is to resolve the problems between Wilson & Motown [[see Mary's second book, Supreme Faith, for the details on this). In short, Gordy wanted to "wash his hands" of Mary and move on.

alanbill1074 · 08-18-2018, 02:19 PM

The debut LP just wasn’t very good. Even a poor singer can have a hit with the right song and a bit of backing. I thought the Gus tracks had potential to do something but nothing on that debut was hit material. The problem with Motown sometimes was that they didn’t look outside often enough, with a couple of exceptions for Diana. If they’d really wanted a hit on Mary they’d have gone to Europe for a sound that better suited her. They just didn’t want her to have a hit.

**TheMotownManiac** · 08-18-2018, 03:26 PM

Oh, I think they would have been thrilled to get a hit on Mary - or anyone. Remember, the company was awash in red ink and needed to increase sales - on anyone. They just didn’t expect to get a hit on her as they didn’t see potential in her - nor did any other label. This isn’t a Motown thing, she could have gone anywhere - and would have - but there were no takers. Folks need to stop looking at this as a Motown thing - the entire industry wasn’t interested - and they had years to see her abilities.

**blackguy69** · 08-18-2018, 10:34 PM

No it was a Motown thing.

**TheMotownManiac** · 08-19-2018, 10:51 AM

Why? Mary was showcased in The Supremes for a dozen years before Red Hot - any label could have taken her at any time. She knew tons of industry Heavy weights like Smokey, Stevie, HDH, Frank Wilson and A&S just to name a few who KNEW her abilities and could have moved her forward if they thought it worth it. She didn’t have the chops. Even the Gus tapes couldn’t get released and they were shopped mercilessly. What if she had a small, avid fan base that adore her every move and yet not enough widespread appeal to go anywhere? What if she really isn’t that special or wonderful? What is the entire recording industry knows something her fans don’t? I wish Mary had a fab Motown solo career. I wish it for her and for her fans. Who knows the cool stuff we’d have witnessed and enjoyed? Everything would have been different - no need for Dreamgirl or animosity to be RTL or much of the survival drama that ensued. Mary’s success was a benefit for all concerned but it just was not meant to be -

WHY is it a Motown thing?

**blackguy69** · 08-19-2018, 11:35 AM

I would agree with you if she hadn’t recorded anything since being dropped from Motown. But that isn’t the case.

**luke** · 08-22-2018, 07:14 PM

Well Neil Bogart was going to sign her. I wonder how that would’ve gone. She has the charisma of a Donna Summer and the Gus tracks were in that vein.

**marv2** · 08-22-2018, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Well Neil Bogart was going to sign her. I wonder how that would’ve gone. She has the charisma of a Donna Summer and the Gus tracks were in that vein.

Fantasy Records and Atlantic wanted to sign Mary also. Peter Stringfellow wanted to start a label for her, as did Merv Griffin.

**RanRan79** · 08-22-2018, 08:07 PM

Mary got in Mary's way. There's no evidence that after leaving Motown, Mary aggressively did anything to get another record deal. And lets be honest, that's the only way she was going to get one is by relentlessly going after it herself. The labels only chase after the big names and while Mary was a member of the most successful and famous of female groups, the name Mary Wilson doesn't have an ounce of the weight the name Diana Ross had when Ross left Motown for RCA. Mary had to deal with her family drama and financial issues, which Diana helped her with. And then what was she doing? She had a "resurgence" of interest due to Motown 25, but she took that and decided to write a book instead. And then after the book, she promoted that and IMO got stuck on being a Supreme again. By the time she did "Walk the Line", nobody cared. Mary's time was the 80s and she needed someone in her corner who knew how to get things done, but she didn't have that and apparently she wasn't that type herself.

There's also no evidence that had Mary still been with Motown when Diana left that the label would've suddenly found use for her. Things got personal between Mary and Berry. I wish some of y'all would stop acting like business doesn't get personal. He wasn't interested in making her a star, Ross or no Ross. Berry didn't like women telling him how to treat them. They got shown the door every time. Even Ross, eventually.

**Roberta75** · 08-22-2018, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Well Neil Bogart was going to sign her. I wonder how that would’ve gone. She has the charisma of a Donna Summer and the Gus tracks were in that vein.

Mary started telling that story after Neil Bogart passed which was real convenient as he
wasnt around to confirm it. I personaly never bought it. Ask Ian Levine about recording Mary. LOL She took his cash and ran for the hills. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

**BayouMotownMan** · 08-22-2018, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Fantasy Records and Atlantic wanted to sign Mary also. Peter Stringfellow wanted to start a label for her, as did Merv Griffin.

Totally untrue. If any of the above labels or moguls had wanted Mary Wilson, they'd have gotten her at a bargain.

**Roberta75** · 08-22-2018, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

Totally untrue. If any of the above labels or moguls had wanted Mary Wilson, they'd have gotten her at a bargain.

I agree. If ANY label or Mogul wanted Mary Wilson she wouldve signed up with them inn 30 seconds or less.

**RanRan79** · 08-22-2018, 11:00 PM

Does anyone know the story with Atlantic? The demos Mary did there were very good, but there's never been an official story about what happened. Someone in SD once said that negotiations fell through, but that person also claims that Flo Ballard and Diana Ross never had a final conversation before Flo's death, even though both Florence and Diana confirmed the story, so his version of Mary and Atlantic Records has to be taken with a grain of salt. The Atlantic demos are exactly the direction I feel Mary should've gone during that period of time. A shame that it didn't lead to a contract and a full lp.

**blackguy69** · 08-23-2018, 12:08 AM

It sounds to me no one really knows the truth.

**marv2** · 08-23-2018, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

Totally untrue. If any of the above labels or moguls had wanted Mary Wilson, they'd have gotten her at a bargain.

Can't just say thank you like everyone else when I provide information you had no clue about? What I wrote is 100% true. Regarding the Fantasy Records deal, Mary passed that on to Brenda Holloway, whom you could ask about that. The Atlantic Record deal, Amet Ertigan could have told you, but he passed in,2006. Peter Stringfellow, passed earlier this year and Merv Griffin in 2007, so you're a little late to the party. Just thank me and move on........

**jobeterob** · 08-23-2018, 07:08 AM

Just that the facts were there was no contract, no hits, nothing just speculation 49 years later

The facts are strong - there was nothing that came if any of it

**BigAl** · 08-23-2018, 07:54 AM

Mary forged ahead with that assortment of new Supremes after Diane left the group because I suppose she was aware that she needed the group’s name, and that a solo go would never have taken off. In that regard, she did very well. Most people didn’t really expect The Supremes to flourish once Diane flew the coop, and here they racked up a handful of respectable hits. Even with the constant ensuing personnel shuffle, Mary hung in there and got plenty of exposure, until it just became too unwieldy to continue with a group. Still, she found herself a niche and I think she’s done very well with it, all things considered. It’s too bad she usually has to dredge up so very much old Supremes material which Diane originally sang, but of course the group is her main claim to fame and she’ll never shed that. However, audiences who come expecting one thing usually are surprised when she performs other material better suited to her voice and style, and most don’t leave disappointed.

**milven** · 08-23-2018, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

Can't just say thank you like everyone else when I provide information you had no clue about? What I wrote is 100% true. Regarding the Fantasy Records deal, Mary passed that on to Brenda Holloway, whom you could ask about that. The Atlantic Record deal, Amet Ertigan could have told you, but he passed in,2006. Peter Stringfellow, passed earlier this year and Merv Griffin in 2007, so you're a little late to the party. Just thank me and move on........

Was not aware that Mary had so many deals offered to her. Casablanca, Atlantic, Merv Griffin, Fantasy. These all sound like great deals. Mary wanted a solo career so badly, why, after she left the Official Supremes, did she pass these deals up and continue to tour singing Supremes' songs with the Supremes' name in her billing? [[Mary Wilson & the Supremes, THE SUPREMES' Mary Wilson, Mary Wilson of THE SUPREMES etc.)

And thank you in advance for your replyi

**BayouMotownMan** · 08-23-2018, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

Can't just say thank you like everyone else when I provide information you had no clue about? What I wrote is 100% true. Regarding the Fantasy Records deal, Mary passed that on to Brenda Holloway, whom you could ask about that. The Atlantic Record deal, Amet Ertigan could have told you, but he passed in,2006. Peter Stringfellow, passed earlier this year and Merv Griffin in 2007, so you're a little late to the party. Just thank me and move on........

Surely Marv, thank you again for posting consistent misinformation without one source to attribute the info to. Continued success on kissing Miss Wilson's rump in your desperate need for attention from someone within the Motown circle.

**mistercarter2u** · 08-23-2018, 10:16 AM

I firmly believe that Motown screwed up royally where Mary was concerned. Her vocals and work with the Supremes, particularly on their 1975 self-titled album,"High Energy," and "Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye," were especially good. Had Motown made her first album ballads and pretty songs, such as the ones on those last Supremes LP's, she could have certainly had a chance at solo recording success. She could have found an audience in the quiet storm arena, but Motown screwed her over royally by putting out that less than stellar disco album. Not only was 80% of the material on that album weak, but it also failed to showcase Mary's voice in a positive light. Then, when she was on the verge of recording music more suited to her and the market, Motown tossed her aside. Shame on Motown!

As for Mary's stage presence, to say she has none is absolutely untrue. She can be very personable on stage, and people who attend her shows get a real treat. Sometimes when she sings the Supremes' hits, they come across as a little sloppy, but people still love them and love her. When she sings ballads and songs better suited to her voice, she can actually soar. I have seen her in concert many times, and I am always amazed by the strength of her performance. Awhile back, a friend who had never liked Ms. Wilson's voice went with me to one of the shows, and after we left, he said he was blown away by what he had heard. He didn't expect her voice to be so good, but it was.

Motown blew it as they intentionally screwed Mary over.

**BayouMotownMan** · 08-23-2018, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by mistercarter2u

I firmly believe that Motown screwed up royally where Mary was concerned. Her vocals and work with the Supremes, particularly on their 1975 self-titled album,"High Energy," and "Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye," were especially good. Had Motown made her first album ballads and pretty songs, such as the ones on those last Supremes LP's, she could have certainly had a chance at solo recording success. She could have found an audience in the quiet storm arena, but Motown screwed her over royally by putting out that less than stellar disco album. Not only was 80% of the material on that album weak, but it also failed to showcase Mary's voice in a positive light. Then, when she was on the verge of recording music more suited to her and the market, Motown tossed her aside. Shame on Motown!

As for Mary's stage presence, to say she has none is absolutely untrue. She can be very personable on stage, and people who attend her shows get a real treat. Sometimes when she sings the Supremes' hits, they come across as a little sloppy, but people still love them and love her. When she sings ballads and songs better suited to her voice, she can actually soar. I have seen her in concert many times, and I am always amazed by the strength of her performance. Awhile back, a friend who had never liked Ms. Wilson's voice went with me to one of the shows, and after we left, he said he was blown away by what he had heard. He didn't expect her voice to be so good, but it was.

Motown blew it as they intentionally screwed Mary over.

It would be a little too easy to blame Motown for the downfall of Mary Wilson and the Supremes. There were far more elements that led up to this than Motown.

Mary herself has all but admitted she made big mistakes taking over the group. The biggest mistake was putting her inexperienced husband in charge. It was here that things started falling apart.

For two years The Supremes were reduced to being a road act. We'd see Mary, Scherrie and Cindy on some of the talk shows and they were excellent. The reviews coming in for Scherrie were sensational. Even though Motown was angry that Mary hired a girl without their knowledge or approval, they had to take notice of Scherrie Payne.

The stage was set for a comeback of the Supremes if only a modest one. The girls were big in the disco market.

Then a chain reaction of disasters started.

First, Pedro fired Cindy. Cindy Birdsong was a beloved member and recognizable to the public. True she was having personal difficulties but nothing that time couldn't cure. This was not the time for another major shake up.

While it can not be argued that Susaye Greene was a dynamic singer, clearly the most powerful of all Supremes, in terms of look and sound this proved to be disastrous. Motown was not happy once again that a change was made without their approval and just basically gave the Ferrers the amount of rope needed to finish off The Supremes

In the recording studio, Susaye ignited fire into the sound of the Supremes. Onstage was another matter. At first the reviews were great, Susaye was singled out for her solo on He Ain't Heavy.

With little promotion from Motown, High Energy became a hit lp after being embraced by the gay club audience. Radio programmers were interested for novelty sake in a regrouping of the Supremes with HDH.
The single made it into the Billboard Top 40, the first time The Supremes placed there in four years. [[On other charts the single placed significantly lower). Again for the final time The Supremes appeared to be on a comeback.

Inner group tensions increased dramatically as Scherrie and Susaye disagreed on Pedro's ability to adequately manage their group and began to act out on their anger. It gradually got to the point that the ladies were competing with each other on stage rather than trying to emulate a group sound. It was the perverbial every-man-for-himself syndrome.

Then came the ill-fated return to Caeser's Palace. Mary has written of it and those of us with a copy of the show can hear that the group just wasn't in sync. The medley was botched and too many show tunes were thrown in. The Motown brass attended this show expecting to see a dynamic rebirth of the legendary Supremes. Instead they saw an amateurish degrading of that legend.

It came to an end at MSG shortly after where the group was jeered offstage halfway into the act.

It was now apparent to everybody, meaning the group members, the fans, the general audience and Motown that the Supremes had self-destructed. There simply was no way of bringing them back after all of this.

So no, I think it unfair to blame Motown in full.

**sup_fan** · 08-23-2018, 11:44 AM

^Bayou - always appreciate your insight and information. a very well-balanced overview of the later 70s years with the Sups. And damn!!! so many what-ifs!! between the MSC and MSS lineup, on record, i love MSS best. it was a great combo of the girls and HDH. on stage, total mess. sloppy and a sad relic of their past.

i think onstage MSC were a bit more in sync and together. But then again, some really sloppy tv work like the hideous Tonight Show singing HMM. But there's a clip of them on Dinah lip syncing HMM in the laverdar tops and black pants. they looked hot there

**BayouMotownMan** · 08-23-2018, 11:55 AM

Those ball gowns on Carson were totally inappropriate for that song. At one point toward the end they were bending over and you could almost see their full boobs. Mary started ordering gowns that showed way too much skin around this time.

**sup_fan** · 08-23-2018, 12:41 PM

while i don't dislike most of the scherrie-era gowns, they weren't the appropriate style for disco. the Tonight Show gowns were pretty and looked great on stage. but for all of the intricate and coordinated choreography for disco they don't work.

And you're right about mary getting carried away with showing skin. those green chiffon gowns with the serpent theme from this era are a great example. her's was the one with no straps or anything holding it up. there's a pic of her in it on stage, sopping wet with sweat and her boobs are barely covered.

**BayouMotownMan** · 08-23-2018, 12:52 PM

I thought Pat Campano made them look like hookers, and then later on drag queens. The only creations of his that I liked are the black and silver gowns from Live in Tokyo, the red gowns from the back of Scherrie's first lp and the black robes from Mike Douglas for Let Yourself Go. When they did the first Soul Train with Scherrie they wore those atrocious pink outfits for the first two numbers then Michael Nicole's blue pantsuits from Jean's first Flip Wilson. It's amazing how cheap Campano's looked in comparison. On their last Dinah they came out in these gold fringe numbers with face paint. They were so cheap looking and scary

**jobeterob** · 08-23-2018, 01:00 PM

Do you are suggesting even if Motown thought Mary had amazing potential, that she or she and Pedro would not have been able to carry through and be successful??

**sup_fan** · 08-23-2018, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

I thought Pat Campano made them look like hookers, and then later on drag queens. The only creations of his that I liked are the black and silver gowns from Live in Tokyo, the red gowns from the back of Scherrie's first lp and the black robes from Mike Douglas for Let Yourself Go. When they did the first Soul Train with Scherrie they wore those atrocious pink outfits for the first two numbers then Michael Nicole's blue pantsuits from Jean's first Flip Wilson. It's amazing how cheap Campano's looked in comparison. On their last Dinah they came out in these gold fringe numbers with face paint. They were so cheap looking and scary

i didn't think they looked that bad. i just think a massive full chiffon skirt isn't appropriate for disco. And i think the gowns were being designed solely for mary and not for what looked good on the group. some of the outfits just further emphasized that drastic height difference between Mary and Susaye

the outfits from the last Soul Train were very good. they orange gowns with the front slit and the sequin wraps and then the brown striped gowns from Come Into My Life.

the red wrapped dresses from back of Sup 75 were ok. i think they look a bit cheap. they don't have the thick coverage of sequins like the earlier hand-made gowns did. looked like fabric you could get at Calico Corners or Jo-Ann Fabrics. but style-wise they're good

i like the revised red dresses from All i Want

those pink things from that early Soul Train show were a mess. the girls looked massive in them. the fabric is too thick and then this huge skirt over bell bottom pants. I've seen a few pics where they're only in the dress [[no pants) and they're better

they should have gone with more of a Halston look - pantsuits, flowing chiffon gowns that could have been bedazzled.

**sup_fan** · 08-23-2018, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Do you are suggesting even if Motown thought Mary had amazing potential, that she or she and Pedro would not have been able to carry through and be successful??

i think that's the case. frankly even without Pedro, mary was a bit of a lost cause at motown. perhaps if she'd opted to take lead when Diana left, berry might have supported things a bit. but i always got the impression that he just felt she wasn't dedicated enough or willing to sacrifice enough. that she was too much into just enjoying her celebrity lifestyle rather than showing huge drive and determination to further her career. i've always got the feeling that he just sort of dismissed her. So by the time she was trying to really lead the group by the mid 70s, it was too little too late.

and then she burned a lot of bridges politically with motown and pedro made things worse

**BayouMotownMan** · 08-23-2018, 01:23 PM

Absolutely not Jobete. Motown never thought Mary Wilson could carry the group. Gordy thought when Jean and Lynda left and Mary married Pedro that he was finished with the Supremes and the Ferrers. He had a rude awakening. Despite Mary's fan constantly trying to build her up, Hollywood thought Mary to be a pretty, sexy lady with no real singing or acting ability. While the other ladies in the group who got married and then pregnant were able to be supported by their husbands, Mary could not. She HAD to work. She even worked while being pregnant three times which is hard to do.

I don't defend Motown easily but as a businessman myself I can look back and see the trepadations Motown had with the Supremes after 1973. The group had become inconsistent with too much turnover of members. For a while in late 1973, Mary Wilson was the only Supreme. Motown let 1974 come and go to make sure that this grouping would stay together; as it were there was talk of Cindy only being temporary and then Mary started the rumor that Lynda was only hired as a temp Supreme. Not true, Lynda Laurence signed full recording and performing contracts with Motown.

As I said in a previous post, Motown had to take notice of the rave reviews the group was getting with Scherrie. Mary's notices were also improving. But there was ambivalence about Cindy the entire time of her second tenure.

Mary and Pedro decided to start Supremes, Inc in an effort to insure proper payments to each lady. Motown was obviously not happy with that nor were they happy with Mary securing outside management. I lost count of how many managers the latter two groupings of Supremes went through. Some only lasted a few weeks. Between Motown, Supremes Inc and other outsiders there were tons of interest conflicts.

At one point when Susaye joined and High Energy gave the group a well deserved comeback, Gordy approached Mary to take full control of the group again. This of course would put Pedro out of work. She said no, another bad move. Perhaps with the Motown brass in charge some stability could have been returned to the group. But that also is pretty speculative. As the 70s went on the group Supremes continued to spiral downward.

There were constant arguments between the ladies and Pedro which Mary did not involve herself in. She should have. Cindy was fired for being defiant to Pedro. Scherrie Payne is a sweet, non-confrontational and spiritual woman. Eventually, along with Su, she too was answering back. After Mary left Scherrie sued Supremes Inc and received an out of court settlement.

The lawsuits between Mary, Motown and Scherrie were such an embarrassing end to a legendary group. When it was announced that Mary was leaving and getting a solo deal, she came back from the last tour of England to find out that Pedro had NOT secured any such solo deal and Motown was clearly not interested in a solo Mary. Thus the S. American dates and yet a new grouping out on the road with lawsuits raging.

**midnightman** · 08-23-2018, 01:47 PM

Jesus Christ, talk about a hot mess and a half! Thanks Bayou!

**sup_fan** · 08-23-2018, 02:51 PM

Again, so many what-ifs!!

what are the details of Lynda's exit? did she want to leave, was it the pregnancy or did mary really want her out?

how much of the Jean/Mary tension existed while Cindy was there? did jean and mary start butting heads early on?

i love the jean recordings, for the most part, but i do see that there's a bit of a spark missing in the live performances. And not on every one. but sometimes jean was a little too shy, too awkward, too withdrawn. Of course she's following someone that blazed as brightly as the sun so it's a bit understandable. but i think if she'd been a bit more of a stronger, outgoing personality it might have helped continue the public interest.

Jean was a lead singer. Diana was a lead singer AND mistress of the ceremonies. i'm not sure jean ever really captured the later enough