Diana in the 90s - what went wrong

[sup_fan]

i think another element was the public perception of her attitude. seems that the rumors and truths that surrounded her persona throughout the 80s finally did her in. people just weren't rooting for her and wanting her to succeed.

[RanRan79]

i think another element was the public perception of her attitude. seems that the rumors and truths that surrounded her persona throughout the 80s finally did her in. people just weren't rooting for her and wanting her to succeed.

I never bought that. People had been saying she was a bitch for years. Mary's book supposedly confirmed it, but then when Diana joins Motown again a couple years later, she has a top 5 r&b hit. I think pop radio, and then eventually r&b radio, passed over her music for better stuff. Remember she was already slipping during the RCA years because of songs that sucked. In the 90s she was still DIANA ROSS to the public, hence why her touring response didn't seem to diminish and she was still the star of the show on whatever program she was booked on, even when sharing the stage with other big names. The industry is fickle, but it has never seemed to have great standards either, as far as artist reputations go. Give the people what they want and they'll keep supporting until they lose interest. The public lost interest because Diana was giving us crap. Lol

[sup_fan]

oh i don't think her "attitude" is the sole reason but i definitely think it contributed. sure if she released a perfect song, it might have hit. But people had written her off and weren't willing to give her another chance. look at Cher, Dolly Parton, Bette Midler, etc. People really like them as people. they are viewed as celebrities that real and down-to-earth. there's a personality that people like and respect. I don't think Diana really had that except with her fans

On another note, i've also wondered what the AIDS epidemic did for the longevity of some of these stars. obviously i'm not trying to lessen the horrors and sadness of those that died and suffered from the disease. It's pride here in Dallas in Sept [[why sept, who knows lol) and so i've been watching various interesting documentaries on the community, many of which either focus or have a significant segment on the AIDS crisis. it's still just shocking how it ravaged the gay community. there's literally a whole generation that's missing or at least horribly reduced in numbers. wonder if that had not occurred would there be more overall public support as there would have been a larger core/gay fan base that could have helped take a song from solely in the clubs to mainstream. maybe a bit of a stretch but just a thought

[RanRan79]

oh i don't think her "attitude" is the sole reason but i definitely think it contributed. sure if she released a perfect song, it might have hit. But people had written her off and weren't willing to give her another chance. look at Cher, Dolly Parton, Bette Midler, etc. People really like them as people. they are viewed as celebrities that real and down-to-earth. there's a personality that people like and respect. I don't think Diana really had that except with her fans

But there wasn't anything to give a chance to. She released crap after crap. And by crap I mean stuff that just wasn't resonating with anyone. Cher was given a musical chance because she happened to be smart enough to record the right song at the right time. Bette Midler hasn't done anything of musical relevance [[to the general public) in eons and Dolly is a country singer and many of them retain their audiences through it all. Also Cher and Bette were not only singers but also actresses and they ran with the Hollywood crowd. They are always among the movers and shakers and being seen. Dolly isn't only a singer but also a businesswoman and her brand is very visible. And I agree with you, the three of them have a different personality to Ross. They are very outgoing and personable. I'd put Patti Labelle in that same category. On the other hand I'd put Diana in the same box as Aretha. Both were very personal, guarded and often went away for lengthy periods of time when not in concert. IMO comparing Ross to the ladies you mentioned is like comparing apples and oranges. She wasn't even the same type of woman as the ones you mentioned even when she was the Diana of the 70s and 80s. That lack of earthiness IMO was one of Diana's greatest assets, aside from her talent. People loved the mystique. They still love it. But it no longer translate to sales because her music sucks balls. Lol

I wonder how much different things might have been had she continued to have a successful movie career. We can discuss the mistakes of her musical career to the cows come home, but the real travesty is what happened to a movie career that started off on such a high note and ended with a movie credit of five movies, the last two being made for TV, and none being released in the 1980s. Sad.

[sup_fan]

hahaha - i don't think her later releases were THAT bad lol. but i agree. mismanagement of her musical content and direction was a key element of her decline.

but i've absolutely heard people say "i hate diana ross. she's a bitch" Maybe it's a two-edged sword. some people view it as star/diva magnetism. some view it as a detraction.

[daviddh]

loved her 90s albums. some of her best, she was gone for too long , then tried to come back. it was a combo of many things

[RanRan79]

hahaha - i don't think her later releases were THAT bad lol. but i agree. mismanagement of her musical content and direction was a key element of her decline.

but i've absolutely heard people say "i hate diana ross. she's a bitch" Maybe it's a two-edged sword. some people view it as star/diva magnetism. some view it as a detraction.

Oh for sure. Remember when Barbara Walters asked her about the bitch thing? I think that reputation was definitely out there, and I think there were times that Ross reaffirmed it. I just don't believe it had any bearing on her lack of musical success after a certain point. The ones who said they hated Diana because she's a bitch had been saying that when "Love Hangover" and "Upside Down" and "Missing You" were big hits. It doesn't explain why all the others who didn't say that suddenly stopped paying attention.

And no, her singles weren't that bad, or even bad at all. But as we discussed in another thread [[or was it this one?), the songs couldn't compete with the other current products, and often her projects seemed to be behind the times instead of trendy.

[Albator]

Have you read the Vincent Paterson book?

http://www.editionsduchene.fr/epa/mu...-9782851209849

He is a choreographer, working with many superstars, mostly with Michael Jackson and Madonna.
We know him as the blond lead dancer in "Pieces of Ice".
After the success of MJ show, Dangerous [[????), he was approached by Diana [[he calls her Miss Ross in the book). She wanted something new for her Motown comeback tour.
I remember in Vanity Fair, she said something about him, without giving his name. "I'm working with a new choreographer, what I'm doing on stage works, and I'm afraid if I change to much it won't, but you have to change". [[If I remember correctly).
She didn't even meet him, except once. She went to Switzerland and he was alone to build a show in LA. He was a big big fan, so he had in mind a show, with a lot of feed-back to the days of the Ed Sullivan Shows, Lady Sings the Blues and all. A colorful show with lot of dancers.
Then she call him to have an idea of what he was doing. He send a VHS, waiting for the answer. She called and she was emotionally moved in a bad way.
"Do you want to ruin my carrer???? where are the hits???"
"Miss Ross, they're all there! You didn't tell me specific songs, people are fans, they know rarities"
"Where are the hits!!!!!"


He was payed and fired. I think many of his ideas were used in the Supreme reunion tour.


So what happened to her in the nineties is that she stayed the same Diana Ross than in 1984/85. Same shows, same gowns, same intro, same Do you Know/Mountains medley...
In a way, I think she was right because as a fan, this is what I like. I don't care about dancers and big productions.

[Jaap]

So what happened to her in the nineties is that she stayed the same Diana Ross than in 1984/85. Same shows, same gowns, same intro, same Do you Know/Mountains medley...
In a way, I think she was right because as a fan, this is what I like. I don't care about dancers and big productions.

This reminds me of a text by Diane Cardwell in Trouble Girls: The Rolling Stone Book of Women in Rock [[1997):

“Like a mirror of the past, Ross simply reflects the surface that made her famous—the glamour gowns, the breathy sweet voice, the constant smile—rather than the substance. It is a universal irony of icons: to freeze in the very image they create”

[Albator]

This reminds me of a text by Diane Cardwell in Trouble Girls: The Rolling Stone Book of Women in Rock [[1997):

“Like a mirror of the past, Ross simply reflects the surface that made her famous—the glamour gowns, the breathy sweet voice, the constant smile—rather than the substance. It is a universal irony of icons: to freeze in the very image they create”

What is true to a certain extant does not reflect the reality of her singing. Since the 2000's, there is a sense of truth in her voice that is very moving.

[RanRan79]

All of that is very interesting, and the choreographer story very revealing. It explains why her shows don't contain some of the rarer cuts fans might like to hear. It appears that she's afraid [[or at least that was the case in the 90s) to disappoint the people who love the hits. Speaks to my continuous claim that part of her problem has been her inability to keep her ear to the street. Usually I say that in regards to her musical direction post Motown Part 1, but I think it apparently applies to the point that she does not [[or did not) listen to her fans either.

Having said that, I still don't think any of this translated into a lack of popularity. True, in the 90s I didn't keep up with Diana's concert schedule, but I have never heard anything about her audience numbers dwindling, she playing to half packed venues, or having to play smaller places to accommodate a shrinking fan base. Even if fans were tired of the same old show, they seem to have continued to patronize it year after year. What did change were her music sells and chart placings. No one was buying the music and radio wasn't playing much of it.

[reese]

All of that is very interesting, and the choreographer story very revealing. It explains why her shows don't contain some of the rarer cuts fans might like to hear. It appears that she's afraid [[or at least that was the case in the 90s) to disappoint the people who love the hits. Speaks to my continuous claim that part of her problem has been her inability to keep her ear to the street. Usually I say that in regards to her musical direction post Motown Part 1, but I think it apparently applies to the point that she does not [[or did not) listen to her fans either.

Having said that, I still don't think any of this translated into a lack of popularity. True, in the 90s I didn't keep up with Diana's concert schedule, but I have never heard anything about her audience numbers dwindling, she playing to half packed venues, or having to play smaller places to accommodate a shrinking fan base. Even if fans were tired of the same old show, they seem to have continued to patronize it year after year. What did change were her music sells and chart placings. No one was buying the music and radio wasn't playing much of it.

When I read the 1989 VANITY FAIR article and she mentioned that she had someone in to help her plan her upcoming show, I was wondering what they were going to do. When I saw her that summer, I will say that it contained some songs that I wasn't expecting to hear, like CHAIN REACTION, DIRTY LOOKS, and IF WE HOLD ON TOGETHER, simply because they weren't hits in the US, or in the case of DIRTY LOOKS, a lesser hit, albeit one of my faves.

In another article, she mentioned that she had recently been to see Eric Clapton and while she enjoyed his concert, she was disappointed that he didn't sing his hit TEARS IN HEAVEN. I suspect she feels the same about her own shows unless she was doing something special like her 1992 THE LADY SINGS concert or RTL, where fans knew what was going to happen. While I might appreciate an evening of rarities, I understand that Diana also has to satisfy the casual fan who wants to hear the hits. It may thrill me to hear NO ONE'S GONNA BE A FOOL FOREVER. But I wouldn't be surprised if many of my fellow concert goers had never heard of it and were waiting for UPSIDE DOWN.

Re audience numbers, I saw Diana in 15,000 seat arenas or ampitheaters in 1979, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1989, and 1991. In 1991, there was an article in Billboard that listed the tours that promoters lost the most $ on that year and Diana's was amongst them. After that, whenever she has been booked in my area it has been in a concert hall, with maybe a 5000-6000 max, maybe smaller. I'm not sure if that is the case in other areas. But other than RTL and the Hollywood Bowl, I haven't heard of her appearing in any arena-sized venues.

[Jaap]

What is true to a certain extant does not reflect the reality of her singing. Since the 2000's, there is a sense of truth in her voice that is very moving.

I agree. It is more about the visual image and the "diva" poses.

[Albator]

Re audience numbers, I saw Diana in 15,000 seat arenas or ampitheaters in 1979, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1989, and 1991. In 1991, there was an article in Billboard that listed the tours that promoters lost the most $ on that year and Diana's was amongst them. After that, whenever she has been booked in my area it has been in a concert hall, with maybe a 5000-6000 max, maybe smaller. I'm not sure if that is the case in other areas. But other than RTL and the Hollywood Bowl, I haven't heard of her appearing in any arena-sized venues.

I remember, Withney was also on this list.
In Europe she continued to perform in Arenas in UK and Netherland. Also in Japan.

[RanRan79]

Re audience numbers, I saw Diana in 15,000 seat arenas or ampitheaters in 1979, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1989, and 1991. In 1991, there was an article in Billboard that listed the tours that promoters lost the most $ on that year and Diana's was amongst them. After that, whenever she has been booked in my area it has been in a concert hall, with maybe a 5000-6000 max, maybe smaller. I'm not sure if that is the case in other areas. But other than RTL and the Hollywood Bowl, I haven't heard of her appearing in any arena-sized venues.

Thanks Reese. I'm aware the last 15 or so years she hasn't really played the arenas. Sadly it doesn't appear that any of the African American artists in her peer group can ever individually [[here in the States) fill the arenas, which personally I don't think is a commentary on the artist but on the "fans".

[lucky2012]

Thanks Reese. I'm aware the last 15 or so years she hasn't really played the arenas. Sadly it doesn't appear that any of the African American artists in her peer group can ever individually [[here in the States) fill the arenas, which personally I don't think is a commentary on the artist but on the "fans".

I try to see her at the Hollywood Bowl whenever she's there [[seems like every other year). Always a great event and experience.

[reese]

Thanks Reese. I'm aware the last 15 or so years she hasn't really played the arenas. Sadly it doesn't appear that any of the African American artists in her peer group can ever individually [[here in the States) fill the arenas, which personally I don't think is a commentary on the artist but on the "fans".

Tina Turner is the only one that comes to mind, and of course, now she's not touring anymore.

[vgalindo]

I try to see her at the Hollywood Bowl whenever she's there [[seems like every other year). Always a great event and experience.

I do too! It really is an amazing event with all the people. It takes me back to the times of her big arena tours.

[Albator]

In what kind of venues did she perform her TMH tour?

[Ollie9]

I really don't think anything went majorly wrong in the 90's. Diana was releasing solid music that sold well in europe and still sounds good today. She was also performing in huge arenas around the world. I wish she had promoted EDIAND properly, but that would be my one main beef.
I think what went wrong in the 80's would be more apt. Why did America turn it's back on her?. I belive it started to go awry after "Swept Away". Diana needed another commercial release and we got "DL". Add to that she was getting older.
She then had her sons and was away a long period. Her profile even in the UK was very low at the time. I think it took a while for her to regain momentum after this.

[reese]

In what kind of venues did she perform her TMH tour?

When I saw her, she was booked for a one-nighter in a 5,000 seat venue. However, response was so strong that they added an additional night.

[Albator]

When I saw her, she was booked for a one-nighter in a 5,000 seat venue. However, response was so strong that they added an additional night.

Was there a time when US fans agreed on the fact she was performing the same shows over the years?
The only difference was the 3 or 4 new songs from the, at the time, current album.
Same gowns, light, entrance, exit, costume changes.
I wasn't bothered by that but I didn't like the sameness of her banter and ad lib between songs.
"Spread love", "I was only two when I started", "The good old days", "you need me call me, I mean that" and all.

[reese]

Was there a time when US fans agreed on the fact she was performing the same shows over the years?
The only difference was the 3 or 4 new songs from the, at the time, current album.
Same gowns, light, entrance, exit, costume changes.
I wasn't bothered by that but I didn't like the sameness of her banter and ad lib between songs.
"Spread love", "I was only two when I started", "The good old days", "you need me call me, I mean that" and all.

Not sure. I think I have heard the complaint about sameness more in recent years than back then. There seemed to be a big burst of energy in 2010 when she came up with the new show and stage set for her MORE TODAY THAN YESTERDAY: GREATEST HITS TOUR. But a few years later she reverted back to the I'M COMING OUT opening, and the show hasn't really changed all that much since then.

It could just be that I see more responses from fans now because of the internet. But back in the 90s, I just assumed that the shrinking of the audiences was because the huge pop hits had stopped.

[thommg]

For myself, there was a time I stopped attending her concerts because she would walk back and forth and throw her microphone out to the audience so we could sing with her. There was lots of "Let me hear you sing!" She didn't seem very interested in being there. Recently I saw her in NYC and her show was great. It was a straight concert with her doing songs fully through - mostly the hits, but she added a couple of surprises as well. She really seemed to be enjoying herself onstage again. That was a great evening for me.

[midnightman]

We're really gonna leave out that she was raising her children in the mix? And also, Motown had no idea how to promote her? Why does her attitude get the 100% blame? If we're gonna compare, as Ran has said, Aretha was also deemed "difficult". How about Judy Garland back in the '60s [[I know, I know, y'all will say "wasn't she on drugs?"). Diana Ross had multiple issues that went against her in the '90s: 1.) she was getting older; 2.) while her '90s music saw her change with the times, who she was hadn't changed, neither did she want to, she was larger than life; 3.) Motown Records put all their promo on Boyz II Men and had no time for other artists with probably the exceptions of Stevie Wonder and the Temptations when they put out a product that they considered a seller of sorts and the times in which Diana released the '90s albums, Motown went through a revolving door of CEOs from Busby [[Workin' Overtime/Force), Harrell [[Take Me Higher) and Kedar [[Every Day Is a New Day) and, probably most importantly, 4.) music was starting to be MORE geared to the youth than they were in the '70s and '80s when middle aged acts did regularly score a top 40 hit, if you was lucky to catch on to a trend like Cher and Aretha or even Patti with the R&B crowd, you'd be able to hang in there, but if not, it just wasn't gonna happen.

I mean, we're gonna act like Diana Ross was the only legacy act that struggled to compete with the modern eras? Dionne Warwick's musical relevance had ended in the early '80s and only got a brief respite with a duet with a hot '80s artist who was about to run out of steam himself [[Geoffrey Osbourne) and then after that, her input went cold. Gladys Knight had R&B success as a solo act after leaving the Pips but she never again enjoyed the success she had with the Pips only having one gold album [[the one that included her cover of End of the Road, which was probably why it went gold anyway since BIIM was HOT). The Beach Boys were a touring act only at this point, no one wanted a record from them. Sinatra only had the Duets sets, he was too old to lead anymore and he was dying.

Only ones I knew that managed to hang besides from Cher and Aretha were Tina Turner and Tony Bennett. Also, Diana was known to the public as a trailblazer and trendsetter and here she was in the '90s chasing trends [[new jack swing, hip hop soul, etc.) instead of following her own path and as we can see from her rant at Vincent Patterson, she didn't really take to change well but she was far from the only one in that boat.

You KNOW there were legendary acts that were like "no I'm not doing that hippity hop crap, y'all try to make me look like a clown?" But Diana says it and "she's got an attitude". But James Brown could whine the same stuff and it's, "well you see, he wants what he wants".

Public perception can bite my black butt lol

[RanRan79]

You know there's a sex and race component when it comes to Diana Ross and any criticism she may receive from some people. That's just a given. Her "difficult" rating would often go unrated when the same behavior is displayed by a man. Strong women, especially strong Black women, are a slap in the face to some folks. Sad, but true.

I did point out that Diana was raising her family, either in this thread or another, but it does bear repeating. She made her family a priority way back in the 70s, but I think she stepped up even more once her boys was born and she had a husband. It's also true that the changing of the guard at record labels can often throw things off balance for artists, so that was a good point also.

But ultimately I stand behind my opinion that the thing that did Ross in during the 90s was her inability to make music that could compete. Midnight mentions that she was once a trend setter but turned into someone chasing trends. And in her case she was often two years or so behind the trend when she finally caught on. The good thing is that her legendary status never wavered. She was always and is always DIANA ROSS.

[midnightman]

Right. You can see what they're doing [[or did in this case) to Janet Jackson [[Super Bowl incident and her refusal to apologize a second time just so she can get on the Grammys that year) and Serena Williams [[confronting the referee and being called "unprofessional" for it when John McEnroe made that sh*t an "art form" in the '80s). Black women are always judged more harshly than anyone else. Marvin Gaye, as much of a stan I am of him and his music [[though I hate some of his actions), did the SAME stuff and people call him a genius [[rightfully so) but they don't ever give Diana that same respect.

But yeah, she was two years behind trends and that hurt her. If she showed the same hungry attitude for music she had in the '60s and '70s, we'd be talking about Diana in a different light but like a lot of legends who made it, she got complacent. It happens.

[lucky2012]

The good thing is that her legendary status never wavered. She was always and is always DIANA ROSS.

And I'll always be grateful. We're here because of that.

[Ollie9]

I really don't consider her 90's music to be old fashioned at all, and was quite relieved she was working with veteran producers. In fact i think Diana mostly played to her strengths in the 90's in recording contemporary adult material.
It has been mentioned that Diana was a trendsetter and ended up following trends. I can't really thing of any solo album where Diana was setting trends as opposed to just making good music. It is possible i am missing something here. In the 80's where to some degree she did try to follow trends the results were often less then stellar.

[midnightman]

Some tracks on WO was definitely trying to match with current trends. Don't get me wrong, though. I LOVED the title track. It was actually a huge R&B hit when it came out. But it was clear that track was trend jumping. She did seem more in her element with a song like Paradise though and This House definitely played to her strengths. And I speak as a fan of the Take Me Higher album, the current R&B sound of that time was smooth soul with a hip-hop edge. She was more on point with the trend then and made it DIANA. Cher went down the same path around the same time and had issues selling too. They both had to do dance remixes to make these songs hits. Diana was smart actually in releasing Take Me Higher as the first single for the album because she built a strong fan base with the dance audience as she got older.

[Roberta75]

Some tracks on WO was definitely trying to match with current trends. Don't get me wrong, though. I LOVED the title track. It was actually a huge R&B hit when it came out. But it was clear that track was trend jumping. She did seem more in her element with a song like Paradise though and This House definitely played to her strengths. And I speak as a fan of the Take Me Higher album, the current R&B sound of that time was smooth soul with a hip-hop edge. She was more on point with the trend then and made it DIANA. Cher went down the same path around the same time and had issues selling too. They both had to do dance remixes to make these songs hits. Diana was smart actually in releasing Take Me Higher as the first single for the album because she built a strong fan base with the dance audience as she got older.

I didn't care for Working Overtime but loved the TMH album. Not having hit albums didnt hold her back. Diana Ross sells out Vegas twice a year. The Hollywood Bowl. New York and citied all across this here country without doing TV or Radio interviews. Shes a national treasure and a living legend.

[Ollie9]

Some tracks on WO was definitely trying to match with current trends. Don't get me wrong, though. I LOVED the title track. It was actually a huge R&B hit when it came out. But it was clear that track was trend jumping. She did seem more in her element with a song like Paradise though and This House definitely played to her strengths. And I speak as a fan of the Take Me Higher album, the current R&B sound of that time was smooth soul with a hip-hop edge. She was more on point with the trend then and made it DIANA. Cher went down the same path around the same time and had issues selling too. They both had to do dance remixes to make these songs hits. Diana was smart actually in releasing Take Me Higher as the first single for the album because she built a strong fan base with the dance audience as she got older.

Because WO was released in 89 i think of it as part of the 80's as opposed to Diana of the 90's. Diana was definately trying to match current trends with this album which is why in part i believe it failed. Had she did what she did with diana 80 and tried to add a little more Diana Ross in there i think it's fate could have been a lot diffferent.
At the time i was really pleased to see a new look, ripped jeans and all. I can see why a lot of the fans who adore Diana as much for her glamour as her voice might have been put off. For me "This House" and "Stand Together are pure class.
My point was that after WO Diana became more thoughtful about her music and in doing so released some bloody good stuff. After 85 whatever form of music she released, it was never going to appeal to the american record buying public again, no matter who was producing her. In europe and other countries her music continued to sell well, received positive reviews and gave her further chart hits.

[midnightman]

Oh no I agree. I was SPECIFICALLY talking about Workin' Overtime only.

[daviddh]

Right. You can see what they're doing [[or did in this case) to Janet Jackson [[Super Bowl incident and her refusal to apologize a second time just so she can get on the Grammys that year) and Serena Williams [[confronting the referee and being called "unprofessional" for it when John McEnroe made that sh*t an "art form" in the '80s). Black women are always judged more harshly than anyone else. Marvin Gaye, as much of a stan I am of him and his music [[though I hate some of his actions), did the SAME stuff and people call him a genius [[rightfully so) but they don't ever give Diana that same respect.

But yeah, she was two years behind trends and that hurt her. If she showed the same hungry attitude for music she had in the '60s and '70s, we'd be talking about Diana in a different light but like a lot of legends who made it, she got complacent. It happens.

was just going to post but u took the words out of my mouth

[daviddh]

i have read where people were angry or put off by her jeans or the hair,personally i liked it when she changed it up. it made things fresh. I don't get it
athough I am not a fan of the WO song I did like many of the other songs like Paradise.i was hoping that would be a huge hit for her. I think she took to much time off, 2 years I think to have her sons. when Celine Dion took off to do the same her career was never the same either.
when Elvis went into the army the col had him record xtra songs to release during his absence. I suppose no one thought to do this but 2 years away is a long time in the music biz.
and yes she was behind, WO was the sequel to Diana. the lp everyone was hoping for in 1981, almost 10 years to late. when Streisand did her 2nd lp with Gibb it didn't make the buzz everyone hoped it would also.
overall her 90s albums were some of her best. she just was caught in the generation gap.

[Albator]

The nineties albums were good to very good or even excellent. Career troubles started in the eighties. I remember Rolling Stone and even People, stating she was out of date with her soap opera glamorous persona and all. The period was into a more agressive kind of feminity or into a return of the stupidly called "true value of singing", with big voice or quality stuff from Houston to Sade. In his book, this Vincent Paterson, say his aim was to put her in the nineties!!! He failed to convince her. When Diva 2000 happened it was the same kind of misunderstood between Miss Ross and the producers. When you want Diana Ross, you have to deal with Miss Ross and it may not be an easy task.
In the end, she was right to be uncompromising. She is respected, for that.

[midnightman]

Yeah the headlines in the '80s were basically "Diana, move out the way, here comes Whitney!"

But yeah Diana didn't take no ish even if it meant her career wouldn't have the same support. I agree with you there Albator!

[marv2]

We're really gonna leave out that she was raising her children in the mix? And also, Motown had no idea how to promote her? Why does her attitude get the 100% blame? If we're gonna compare, as Ran has said, Aretha was also deemed "difficult". How about Judy Garland back in the '60s [[I know, I know, y'all will say "wasn't she on drugs?"). Diana Ross had multiple issues that went against her in the '90s: 1.) she was getting older; 2.) while her '90s music saw her change with the times, who she was hadn't changed, neither did she want to, she was larger than life; 3.) Motown Records put all their promo on Boyz II Men and had no time for other artists with probably the exceptions of Stevie Wonder and the Temptations when they put out a product that they considered a seller of sorts and the times in which Diana released the '90s albums, Motown went through a revolving door of CEOs from Busby [[Workin' Overtime/Force), Harrell [[Take Me Higher) and Kedar [[Every Day Is a New Day) and, probably most importantly, 4.) music was starting to be MORE geared to the youth than they were in the '70s and '80s when middle aged acts did regularly score a top 40 hit, if you was lucky to catch on to a trend like Cher and Aretha or even Patti with the R&B crowd, you'd be able to hang in there, but if not, it just wasn't gonna happen.

I mean, we're gonna act like Diana Ross was the only legacy act that struggled to compete with the modern eras? Dionne Warwick's musical relevance had ended in the early '80s and only got a brief respite with a duet with a hot '80s artist who was about to run out of steam himself [[Geoffrey Osbourne) and then after that, her input went cold. Gladys Knight had R&B success as a solo act after leaving the Pips but she never again enjoyed the success she had with the Pips only having one gold album [[the one that included her cover of End of the Road, which was probably why it went gold anyway since BIIM was HOT). The Beach Boys were a touring act only at this point, no one wanted a record from them. Sinatra only had the Duets sets, he was too old to lead anymore and he was dying.

Only ones I knew that managed to hang besides from Cher and Aretha were Tina Turner and Tony Bennett. Also, Diana was known to the public as a trailblazer and trendsetter and here she was in the '90s chasing trends [[new jack swing, hip hop soul, etc.) instead of following her own path and as we can see from her rant at Vincent Patterson, she didn't really take to change well but she was far from the only one in that boat.

You KNOW there were legendary acts that were like "no I'm not doing that hippity hop crap, y'all try to make me look like a clown?" But Diana says it and "she's got an attitude". But James Brown could whine the same stuff and it's, "well you see, he wants what he wants".

Public perception can bite my black butt lol

She just didn't make any good records and people in America either disliked her or detested her. It really is that simple. Not complicated.

[marv2]

The nineties albums were good to very good or even excellent. Career troubles started in the eighties. I remember Rolling Stone and even People, stating she was out of date with her soap opera glamorous persona and all. The period was into a more agressive kind of feminity or into a return of the stupidly called "true value of singing", with big voice or quality stuff from Houston to Sade. In his book, this Vincent Paterson, say his aim was to put her in the nineties!!! He failed to convince her. When Diva 2000 happened it was the same kind of misunderstood between Miss Ross and the producers. When you want Diana Ross, you have to deal with Miss Ross and it may not be an easy task.
In the end, she was right to be uncompromising. She is respected, for that.

She may have been respected for being that way by somebody, but most people could not stand her. She killed her own career by being "uncompromising" which is not really accurate. She was a b*tch to most people unlucky enough to come in contact with her. It was so bad that she couldn't even turn to Berry Gordy for help by then.

[luke]

Right. Gordy had managed to protect her image and then in the 80s it all exploded. All the rumors about her were true. Her “spreadin Love” stuff was all an act and as stated above authenticity and pure talent became very valued. Dionne, Gladys and Tina and to a lesser degree Aretha struggled but even Aretha did not have Ross’ reputation. People can tire of that, especially when Whitney,Sade and Tina are around putting out great records. I have a friend who is a Motown fan who said he would never buy another Ross record after Motown 25. This is not to deny her charisma but after so many years people start to want more than she gives and more authenticity. How bout Diana pulling her hair back, wearing one nice outfit, getting real and just singing songs from Lady Sings the Blues?

[marv2]

Right. Gordy had managed to protect her image and then in the 80s it all exploded. All the rumors about her were true. Her “spreadin Love” stuff was all an act and as stated above authenticity and pure talent became very valued. Dionne, Gladys and Tina and to a lesser degree Aretha struggled but even Aretha did not have Ross’ reputation. People can tire of that, especially when Whitney,Sade and Tina are around putting out great records. I have a friend who is a Motown fan who said he would never buy another Ross record after Motown 25. This is not to deny her charisma but after so many years people start to want more than she gives and more authenticity. How bout Diana pulling her hair back, wearing one nice outfit, getting real and just singing songs from Lady Sings the Blues?

I agree but for some reason she has it in her head that people like to eat the same soup day after day. The base part of her act is nearly 40 years old now. Most of the songs are over 40 years old, all the costume changes is old hat and the big hair is from 1981.

[Bluebrock]

[QUOTE=marv2;482288]She just didn't make any good records and people in America either disliked her or detested her. It really is that simple. Not complicated.
She did make good records which continued to sell well overseas. Her three 90's albums were very strong and much better than most of her 80's output and even some of her 70's stuff. The big difference was she was given airplay in the UK and other European countries. When you get past a certain age it is very difficult to get your records played in America where it seems that youth overules actual vocal talent. It frustrated me when i lived in the States. At least here in the UK age is not such a barrier to getting your music heard.

[Boogiedown]

Hmmm , I thought the gov't decided what gets played there ???

[Albator]

[QUOTE=Bluebrock;482336]

The big difference was she was given airplay in the UK and other European countries. When you get past a certain age it is very difficult to get your records played in America where it seems that youth overules actual vocal talent. It frustrated me when i lived in the States. At least here in the UK age is not such a barrier to getting your music heard.

Yes, Tina was tremendously successful but in the eighties, she was almost new to the recording market, and she was cleverly managed. In Europe, she did lot of Interviews where she dismissed her radio friendly material from the period. She said « i’m over 50, and it’s good for me to secure my finance » . So, when some claim her 80’s albums are great, it’s just their opinion, based only on their actual success.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=Albator;482345]

Yes, Tina was tremendously successful but in the eighties, she was almost new to the recording market, and she was cleverly managed. In Europe, she did lot of Interviews where she dismissed her radio friendly material from the period. She said « i’m over 50, and it’s good for me to secure my finance » . So, when some claim her 80’s albums are great, it’s just their opinion, based only on their actual success.

Tina Turner was not almost new to the recording market in the 80s. She had her first hit with Ike "Fool In Love" in 1960 and had been recording for around 20 years by the time the 80s rolled around. She, staged the greatest comeback in recent memory.

[Albator]

yes, that why she was almost new...

[marv2]

yes, that why she was almost new...

I'd consider 20 years in the business by that time a veteran.

[Nitro2015]

I'd consider 20 years in the business by that time a veteran.

My dear, Tina Turner had only one [[1) Top 10 hit in the Hot 100 between 1960 and 1984. And it was Proud Mary [[Ike & Tina Turner), # 4, in 1971.

She went solo in 1976, but only started to chart in 1983 as a solo act.

So, it's not hard to understand why she was almost a new artist for the mainstream public.

She had a very rough path in U.S. charts, and it was not a consolidated mainstream pop star as Aretha or Diana.

She finally scored her first solo U.S. Top 10 hit with "What's Love Got To Do With It" in late 1984, eventually reaching #1.

Large part of the music buying public didn't have a clue that she was performing since the late 50's.

After 1984, she became a mainstream act. But before that, she wasn't that popular or recognized.

Her whole Ike & Tina thing only gained mainstream visibility after Tina's solo megastardom [[the 1986 "I, Tina" book, Tina's countless interviews for mass media conglomerations, the 1993 "What's Love" biopic etc.)

[marv2]

My dear, Tina Turner had only one [[1) Top 10 hit in the Hot 100 between 1960 and 1984. And it was Proud Mary [[Ike & Tina Turner), # 4, in 1971.

She went solo in 1976, but only started to chart in 1983 as a solo act.

So, it's not hard to understand why she was almost a new artist for the mainstream public.

She had a very rough path in U.S. charts, and it was not a consolidated mainstream pop star as Aretha or Diana.

She finally scored her first solo U.S. Top 10 hit with "What's Love Got To Do With It" in late 1984, eventually reaching #1.

Large part of the music buying public didn't have a clue that she was performing since the late 50's.

After 1984, she became a mainstream act. But before that, she wasn't that popular or recognized.

Her whole Ike & Tina thing only gained mainstream visibility after Tina's solo megastardom [[the 1986 "I, Tina" book, Tina's countless interviews for mass media conglomerations, the 1993 "What's Love" biopic etc.)

The black community knew she had been recording since the late 50s. They also are the ones that supported the Ike & Tina Turner Revue all during the 60s and up until she left in the 70s. They/she appeared on national television quite a bit in the 60s and 70s [[see Youtube.com). Being a record buyer from the black community, that is my point of reference. People in the music industry also knew Tina Turner had been around block and back for years prior to 1984! Tina Turner has never been a cult act with that type of following. I don't consider casual radio listeners as fans.

[luke]

Ike and Tina were very popular on my college campus in the 70s... as were the Ikettes. They were very popular with Nutbush City Limits...