Flo Mary and Cindy on Background

[reese]

Oddly, in Where Did Our Love Go, I only hear Mary and not Flo. In the German version flo is there. It makes me wonder if flo was severely turned down in the English WDOLG

Maybe WDOLG was one of those sessions where they had Flo stand farther back from the mike.

[imakicola]

Maybe WDOLG was one of those sessions where they had Flo stand farther back from the mike.

Maybe!!!

But compare the German and English versions. The German one you can hear lo is there. In the English one...I CANNOT FIND ANYONE ELSE. It might as well be a duet!

[sup_fan]

The backgrounds on the 45 version and album version are the same. It's most likely Flo, Mary and the Andantes.

i agree. it has been a while since i listened to any version of Stop [[not one of my fav tunes by the girls) but i believe the earlier F and M background vocals didn't have as much singing. i want to say that the Ahhh's from the backgrounds during the verses wasn't on the earlier recording. so it might be that M and F recorded their part first, it was decided more background was needed throughout the recording so the andantes doubled what M and F were already singing and added in new segments. So all the girls are singing Think It Over and some other parts but only Andantes on maybe the ahh's and some other parts

[franjoy56]

I find three songs with one supreme but i may be wrong . penny pincher. Flo on bkg only. Heaven must have sent u cindy only. Mary only love is in our hearts. Msry snf cindy on 4 trax from love child album trac 2 side 1 trac 2.3 5 side 2. And [ igmulm and itsn

[franjoy56]

Trac 1 side 2 on love child album also have mary and cindy on bkg sunny boy as well as myb u aint livin till ur lovin trac 4 and ill set u free and keep an eye side 1. Unusual use of the sups on this album but omitted on t big hit love child hmmmm

[jim aka jtigre99]

I will refer to Diana Ross' book where she states that Mary was the buffer between her sound and Florence's. Without Mary provided her beautiful , rich and warm vocals the Supremes sound would have been much different and give them far less a group sound.When Cindy replaced Florence, Mary's vocals were much stronger because of the difference in Flo's strong first soprano and Cindy's soft second soprano. As for Where Did Our Love Go, it does almost sound like a duet because Mary is quite distinct in the background. This is perhaps due to HDH wanting the sound to be the soft rocking ballad it was and that one member almost wanted to have Mary do the lead. The hypnotic background is quite memorable as is the plaintive lead vocal-the perfect blend to draw any discerning ear to enjoy their first #1 hit. The Andantes may have approximated or sweetened the backgrounds but the combination of Mary and Florence or Cindy was undeniably the special sound which drew in fans of their sound as did the unique leads. I just celebrate the beauty that the wonderful voices of this group provided us.

[sup_fan]

i agree that all 3 are on WDOLG. while Mary is the more prominent of the background voices, you can tell it's not one person singing. even if you can't hear the distinction between M and F as clearly as you would on other songs. Plus this was early enough that the angst in the group wasn't really there. flo would not have skipped a recording date in early 64 as the group was struggling

I agree with your description of the "hypnotic" backgrounds on Where. that's part of what makes it work. in a few interview Lamont has said they originally had more complex backgrounds but that they scrapped those [[sometimes this is attributed to the girls' lack of excitement towards recording the song) and just did the simple "baby baby."

[RanRan79]

I will refer to Diana Ross' book where she states that Mary was the buffer between her sound and Florence's. Without Mary provided her beautiful , rich and warm vocals the Supremes sound would have been much different and give them far less a group sound.

Absolutely. Mary was definitely an integral part of their sound. Not to mention she's also said to have had the best ear for harmony, and I'm inclined to agree. As great as Florence and Diana were, it was easy to tell on occasion that they would have a little trouble staying in the melody and controlling their voices. I don't believe Mary ever had that problem. [[Not counting the Farewell album when Mary was kind'a all over the place, but I think that was on purpose.) Without Mary Wilson the Supremes would've been an entirely different group, sound wise.

[sup_fan]

i think mary's voice works best in a group environment. her tone really did help meld Flo's and Diana's unique voices. it really was a great blend. when Cindy joined, the two of them really blended

[lucky2012]

^ I love the Andantes on some Supremes tracks but I wouldn't trade them for Mary & Flo [[or Cindy) on most, if not all. The first time I heard Baby Doll, Any Girl In Love and Merry Christmas I was so impressed by the background harmonies [[and so proud of Mary & Flo!) It was disappointing when I found out about the Andantes years later. But I've grown up and I'm no longer disillusioned. Motown [[Berry Gordy) felt the need for "perfection" in sound, and not just for the Supremes. I'm grateful that the classic Supremes [[DMF) are on the great hit singles and most of the album tracks. I love Sing Rodgers & Hart because of DMF and I'm glad the expanded Sing & Perform Funny Girl with Mary & Cindy was released. If only there had been a version of Merry Christmas with just DMF.

[sup_fan]

in the situation of the Supremes, MDF certainly had the goods and could sing wonderfully. if you listen to the handful of unreleased tracks from the CW&P sessions that were included on Motown Unreleased 1963, the recordings are only of the supremes. the additional andantes backgrounds have not been added. and the girls sound great. Same with some of the tracks from There's A Place For Us. I think the studio version of Put On A Happy Place is great - although the brass are a bit crazy and too high in the mix. But the girls and their harmony sounds amazing.

so while its disappointing that they're not doing Xmas, Broadway to Hollywood and others, i agree that it's something you can look past because it really was just about keeping a production schedule.

[lucky2012]

^ Yes, and I do love CW&P very much for DMF. I'll have to listen to Motown Unreleased 1963. Thanks.

[RanRan79]

i think mary's voice works best in a group environment. her tone really did help meld Flo's and Diana's unique voices. it really was a great blend. when Cindy joined, the two of them really blended

Mary and Cindy really did have a nice blend. I just think their sound was a step down from what Mary and Flo were capable of. And by "step down" I don't mean that it wasn't as good, just that on record Mary and Flo brought something to the table that was missing with Mary and Cindy. I think Mary and Cindy did wonderful jobs on "I'll Set You Free", "Honey Boy", "Bah, Bah, Bah", even the work on "Funny Girl". But I can't imagine them doing "Come See About Me", "Back In My Arms Again" or "You Keep Me Hangin On" justice. Mary and Cindy's sound was very sweet. Mary and Flo's sound was sweet with an edge. I think that's what I'm trying to say, Mary and Cindy's harmony lacked the edge of Mary and Flo's. And that's why I've never been "upset" by the Andantes replacing Mary and Cindy on some recordings. The Andantes had the ability to bring to the table the same things Mary and Flo brought together.

[RanRan79]

^ I love the Andantes on some Supremes tracks but I wouldn't trade them for Mary & Flo [[or Cindy) on most, if not all. The first time I heard Baby Doll, Any Girl In Love and Merry Christmas I was so impressed by the background harmonies [[and so proud of Mary & Flo!) It was disappointing when I found out about the Andantes years later. But I've grown up and I'm no longer disillusioned. Motown [[Berry Gordy) felt the need for "perfection" in sound, and not just for the Supremes. I'm grateful that the classic Supremes [[DMF) are on the great hit singles and most of the album tracks. I love Sing Rodgers & Hart because of DMF and I'm glad the expanded Sing & Perform Funny Girl with Mary & Cindy was released. If only there had been a version of Merry Christmas with just DMF.

I always thought "Baby Doll" was the Andantes, but last year I came to the conclusion that it's part Flo and Mary and part Andantes. [[Whatever the case, it's a song I hate so makes no difference...no pun intended...to me.)

I agree about Merry Christmas. I once read- can't remember where- that Lamont Dozier said that on some of the Christmas tracks, Flo and Mary were double tracked. I never knew if he was saying the girls were double tracked with themselves or with the Andantes. And if only the Andantes had done backup, why would Lamont say that Flo and Mary were double tracked? For the life of me I still don't understand why Flo and Mary would get Christmas leads but not be brought in to do background. So I figured that any Christmas expanded would include tracks with Flo and Mary and no Andantes, like the Funny Girl previously unreleased cuts, and I was disappointed to find that the expanded edition did not include anything such as this. I am not giving up hope that backgrounds with Flo and Mary exist. After all, it was only after the expanded edition that Mary's Christmas lead was discovered. No reason to think there is no chance that Christmas tracks with Flo and Mary on backup aren't waiting to be found.

[sup_fan]

yeah the Xmas recording dates would make you think M and F could have been there. The girls performance schedule was

Aug 27 - Sept 9: Michigan State Fair
Sept 10: JFK Stadium, Philadelphia
Sept 13: Hullabaloo [[this might be the air date, not recording date. not sure)
Sept 17 - 26: Safari Room, San Jose CA

Xmas recording dates are:
Sept 1: backgrounds for Twinkle Twinkle Little Me, Little Bright Star, Joy To The World
Sept 9: leads for Rudolph, Santa is Coming, My Fav, Silent Night & O Holy Night. backgrounds recut for Little Bright Star and backgrounds recorded for Born of Mary, Rudolph, Santa is Coming, My Fav
Sept 13: backgrounds for White Christmas
Sept 14: lead for First Noel, White Christmas, Little Drummer, My Christmas Tree, Little Bright Star, Joy to the World
Sept 15: lead for Silver Bells, Born of Mary, Children Christmas, Twinkle Twinkle
Sept 16: backgrounds for Children Christmas, Little Drummer, My Christmas Tree
Sept 21: backgrounds for Silver Bells

then on Sept 29 they recorded I Hear A Symphony

Obviously Flo came into the studios on 9/9 before they hit the road after the MI St Fair. Diana did her leads on 9/9 14 and 15. seems like they could have pulled M and F in for recordings too

there are no listed dates for the Christmas Song leads from D or M.

[TheMotownManiac]

I don’t think it was always about scheduling. Sometimes they wanted a different sound like on Stop! And I don’t think Berry was that involved in the decision making process early on - I think the producers used what they felt best with DMF. With DMC, they were, to me, quite ineffective and I prefer the A’s to M&C in the 60s and 70s.

I admit to being sad Flo wasn’t on YCHL , and I know it must have hurt her a great deal to see it become a mega smash without her, but it IS perfect. On Merry Christmas, i’d Have preferred Mary & Flo on White Christmas and a few others, but for the most part, I’m ok as it is. I do not like the sound on white Christmas. They sound like the Vandellas

[marv2]

yeah the Xmas recording dates would make you think M and F could have been there. The girls performance schedule was

Aug 27 - Sept 9: Michigan State Fair
Sept 10: JFK Stadium, Philadelphia
Sept 13: Hullabaloo [[this might be the air date, not recording date. not sure)
Sept 17 - 26: Safari Room, San Jose CA

Xmas recording dates are:
Sept 1: backgrounds for Twinkle Twinkle Little Me, Little Bright Star, Joy To The World
Sept 9: leads for Rudolph, Santa is Coming, My Fav, Silent Night & O Holy Night. backgrounds recut for Little Bright Star and backgrounds recorded for Born of Mary, Rudolph, Santa is Coming, My Fav
Sept 13: backgrounds for White Christmas
Sept 14: lead for First Noel, White Christmas, Little Drummer, My Christmas Tree, Little Bright Star, Joy to the World
Sept 15: lead for Silver Bells, Born of Mary, Children Christmas, Twinkle Twinkle
Sept 16: backgrounds for Children Christmas, Little Drummer, My Christmas Tree
Sept 21: backgrounds for Silver Bells

then on Sept 29 they recorded I Hear A Symphony

Obviously Flo came into the studios on 9/9 before they hit the road after the MI St Fair. Diana did her leads on 9/9 14 and 15. seems like they could have pulled M and F in for recordings too

there are no listed dates for the Christmas Song leads from D or M.

Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard recorded songs for the Merry Christmas album.

[sup_fan]

Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard recorded songs for the Merry Christmas album.

according to the liner notes from the last expanded edition, they did not. remember motown would have had to pay the Andantes for their sessions. this was also then billed to the producers until it was later passed onto whatever group[[s) recorded their vocals to the track. so other than the very early years when things were a bit less organized, the accounting dept would have been tracking pretty closely when musicians were in the studios [[and i'm counting the andantes as musicians, not a group).

now it's certainly possible that M and F did record some backing vocals and they're either wiped or lost. and that whatever studio recording times have also been lost. as we can see in the expanded edition notes, some tracks are just missing info.

[sup_fan]

I don’t think it was always about scheduling. Sometimes they wanted a different sound like on Stop! And I don’t think Berry was that involved in the decision making process early on - I think the producers used what they felt best with DMF. With DMC, they were, to me, quite ineffective and I prefer the A’s to M&C in the 60s and 70s.

I admit to being sad Flo wasn’t on YCHL , and I know it must have hurt her a great deal to see it become a mega smash without her, but it IS perfect. On Merry Christmas, i’d Have preferred Mary & Flo on White Christmas and a few others, but for the most part, I’m ok as it is. I do not like the sound on white Christmas. They sound like the Vandellas

i think in some cases you're correct. IMO the marvelettes were often left off recording due to the andantes being stronger singers and faster to learn the parts. Producers have said often the Andantes self-produced and came up with their own harmonies and parts to songs. they were clearly very talented.

Also some producers probably just got very comfortable with using them and so it was simply faster and easier to do so. Also many, many songs were developed by producers and not immediately intended for the group that eventually got the release. songs were assigned and then reassigned, sometimes multiple times. if they already had the female backing vocals done using the andantes, then the producer simply had to pair it with the right lead singer, whether that was Wanda, Martha, Diana, Chris Clark, Jimmy Ruffin, David Ruffin, Brenda Holloway, etc,etc.

[marv2]

according to the liner notes from the last expanded edition, they did not. remember motown would have had to pay the Andantes for their sessions. this was also then billed to the producers until it was later passed onto whatever group[[s) recorded their vocals to the track. so other than the very early years when things were a bit less organized, the accounting dept would have been tracking pretty closely when musicians were in the studios [[and i'm counting the andantes as musicians, not a group).

now it's certainly possible that M and F did record some backing vocals and they're either wiped or lost. and that whatever studio recording times have also been lost. as we can see in the expanded edition notes, some tracks are just missing info.

Florence recorded "Silent Night" and O' Holy Night" during those sessions for "Merry Christmas". There was a song Mary Wilson sang with Diana Ross that was recorded during those sessions as well. I believe it was released just last year.

There has been so much misinformation put out there regarding this album. Harvey Fuqua at one point said it was recorded in LA. That didn't sound right to me when later folks started saying that the Andantes did all the backgrounds. They only did sessions in Detroit not LA. The back photo. for the album was taken out near LA, but that is the only thing I can verify about LA associated with the album. I don't think people remember the details anymore.

[vgalindo]

I always thought "Baby Doll" was the Andantes, but last year I came to the conclusion that it's part Flo and Mary and part Andantes. [[Whatever the case, it's a song I hate so makes no difference...no pun intended...to me.)

I agree about Merry Christmas. I once read- can't remember where- that Lamont Dozier said that on some of the Christmas tracks, Flo and Mary were double tracked. I never knew if he was saying the girls were double tracked with themselves or with the Andantes. And if only the Andantes had done backup, why would Lamont say that Flo and Mary were double tracked? For the life of me I still don't understand why Flo and Mary would get Christmas leads but not be brought in to do background. So I figured that any Christmas expanded would include tracks with Flo and Mary and no Andantes, like the Funny Girl previously unreleased cuts, and I was disappointed to find that the expanded edition did not include anything such as this. I am not giving up hope that backgrounds with Flo and Mary exist. After all, it was only after the expanded edition that Mary's Christmas lead was discovered. No reason to think there is no chance that Christmas tracks with Flo and Mary on backup aren't waiting to be found.

Why would Lamont Dozier be commenting on the Merry Christmas album? I didn't think they had anything to do with this album. Wasn't this album produced by Harvey Fuqua?

[floyjoy678]

Here's my train of thought: If Flo was in the studio doing her leads the same day those background vocals were cut, who's to say she didn't join in with the Andantes? There's several songs where it sounds like more than just the Andantes.

[RanRan79]

Why would Lamont Dozier be commenting on the Merry Christmas album? I didn't think they had anything to do with this album. Wasn't this album produced by Harvey Fuqua?

Thanks V, you're right. It was Fuqua, not Dozier.

[RanRan79]

Here's my train of thought: If Flo was in the studio doing her leads the same day those background vocals were cut, who's to say she didn't join in with the Andantes? There's several songs where it sounds like more than just the Andantes.

That's a good point and a possibility.

[bradsupremes]

Mary recorded a lead on "The Christmas Song." Flo recorded leads on "O Holy Night" and "Silent Night." Those are the only songs they recorded for the Christmas album. They didn't do any background vocals on any of the tracks. The session logs and tape cards don't indicate they did and if they did, we would have known or Andy & George would have said it in the track annotations. All of the background vocals are the Andantes.

There are many instances were all three ladies were in town, but weren't used in one recording sessions or record all the same songs...

Example: October 24-26, 1966
The girls are home and recording tracks. One track in particular is "Old Love [[Let's Try It Again)." On the 25th, Diana records a lead vocal on the track [[her vocal gets erased). The following day, Mary & Flo go into the studio and record some tracks, but not "Old Love." Why not? This isn't the only instance where a lead or background wasn't recorded when they were working on the song the same day or the day prior.

[Boogiedown]

There are many instances were all three ladies were in town, but weren't used in one recording sessions or record all the same songs...

Example: October 24-26, 1966
The girls are home and recording tracks. One track in particular is "Old Love [[Let's Try It Again)." On the 25th, Diana records a lead vocal on the track [[her vocal gets erased). The following day, Mary & Flo go into the studio and record some tracks, but not "Old Love." Why not? This isn't the only instance where a lead or background wasn't recorded when they were working on the song the same day or the day prior.

Good question!!!

[RanRan79]

A year ago we all would've said Mary didn't get a Christmas lead, but now we know different. My position is that we only know what we know today. Mary's lead wasn't even discovered until after the first Christmas expanded. Andy and George mentioned nothing about it in the liner notes. So I'm not about to believe that there's no chance there aren't Christmas tracks with Flo and Mary on backing vocals simply because there's been no word about it today. There probably isn't a high chance of course, but with these new discoveries happening and new information passing around, who can say what exists and what doesn't with 100 percent certainty?

As far as "Old Love" goes, maybe the producers decided that "Old Love" wasn't worth the time and trouble to produce on the Supremes [[since they supposedly erased Diana's lead anyway)? Not a far fetched scenario that by the time Flo and Mary came in to do their work, "Old Love" was already off the table. True?

[rovereab]

Here is that version:

For some reason I cannot access this in the UK. Does anyone have a link that works for the UK please?

Thanks.

[sup_fan]

the girls rarely, if ever except the early days, recorded as a group. Diana's lead vocals were often recorded on different days from the backgrounds. it most likely is just due to studio time and scheduling, plus singer availability. i have no idea why the order of songs recorded differed but that could be simply because of different producers, maybe different priorities - they thought one song might be a bigger hit than another, etc.

i don't think anyone is saying it's impossible that F and M aren't on Xmas. it's just that there is no evidence as of yet that they are. they're not on any of the session logs or paperwork.

given their travel schedule IF they are on anything for Xmas, it would only be Twinkle Twinkle, Little Bright Star, Joy to the World, Born of Mary, Rudolph, Santa and My Fav. the other tunes were recorded once they were out of Detroit on the concert circuit

[RanRan79]

i don't think anyone is saying it's impossible that F and M aren't on Xmas. it's just that there is no evidence as of yet that they are. they're not on any of the session logs or paperwork.

I think everyone is in agreement that there is no evidence that Flo and Mary are singing backup on any of the Christmas tracks, but the impression I got from Brad's response was that he felt the subject was closed in the absence of any official Motown documentation. My take is quite the opposite. When it comes to the vaults, one never knows what might show up, hence Mary's Christmas lead. I still think it weird that Flo and Mary would go in to record leads for the project but be excluded from singing background. Weird, not impossible.

[marv2]

For some reason I cannot access this in the UK. Does anyone have a link that works for the UK please?

Thanks.

I also hate when they do that. If I find something, I'll post it here for you.

[jobeterob]

Isn’t the answer that HDH did what they thought was needed to achieve the sound they wanted after the lead was recorded

They used who they wanted when they wanted and it wasn’t group members a significant portion of the time which is why group members weren’t used at times when they were in town

There was none of the sensitivity that had developed in old fans of the group

[marv2]

Isn’t the answer that HDH did what they thought was needed to achieve the sound they wanted after the lead was recorded

They used who they wanted when they wanted and it wasn’t group members a significant portion of the time which is why group members weren’t used at times when they were in town

There was none of the sensitivity that had developed in old fans of the group

No that was not the answer. I thought after being on this forum all this time that you were real Supremes fan. Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard sang on 90% of the Supremes hit records. Their sound together was the best and most unique sound period.

[luke]

Of course they were. HDH have often spoken about how crucial Mary and Flo were to the group sound and their success.

[marv2]

Of course they were. HDH have often spoken about how crucial Mary and Flo were to the group sound and their success.

Frank Wilson said something similar about Mary and Cindy.

[luke]

That’s right. He said he felt their talent needed to be brought more up front!

[RanRan79]

Of course they were. HDH have often spoken about how crucial Mary and Flo were to the group sound and their success.

Of all the producers, by my calculations, HDH and Smokey were the least likely to use the Andantes on the Supremes recordings, although Smokey may not have been as inclined to use Mary and Cindy during the DRATS years. It's wishful thinking to believe most of their recordings- or even half- are absent Flo and Mary.

[bradsupremes]

I think everyone is in agreement that there is no evidence that Flo and Mary are singing backup on any of the Christmas tracks, but the impression I got from Brad's response was that he felt the subject was closed in the absence of any official Motown documentation. My take is quite the opposite. When it comes to the vaults, one never knows what might show up, hence Mary's Christmas lead. I still think it weird that Flo and Mary would go in to record leads for the project but be excluded from singing background. Weird, not impossible.

It is a closed subject because 1.) the session logs and tape cards don’t say “Group” when it came to vocals. They say “voices” which means the Andantes. Motown was very thorough in record keeping and documentation. Some things did fall through the cracks, but they were on the ball. I don’t think this was an exception. 2.) There is no evidence on tape either. When working on the Merry Christmas collection [[2015 digital & 2017 CD release), they would have gone directly to the multitrack tapes for mixing and mastering. Nothing was found or else we would have heard it. I don’t see what other sources there could be on this.

The vaults have been exhausted on this. They didn’t record background vocals on the album.

[RanRan79]

It is a closed subject because 1.) the session logs and tape cards don’t say “Group” when it came to vocals. They say “voices” which means the Andantes. Motown was very thorough in record keeping and documentation. Some things did fall through the cracks, but they were on the ball. I don’t think this was an exception. 2.) There is no evidence on tape either. When working on the Merry Christmas collection [[2015 digital & 2017 CD release), they would have gone directly to the multitrack tapes for mixing and mastering. Nothing was found or else we would have heard it. I don’t see what other sources there could be on this.

The vaults have been exhausted on this. They didn’t record background vocals on the album.

Yeah, we thought the vaults had been exhausted on Supremes Christmas cuts after the 2015 expanded edition...but yet there's Mary singing a Christmas song two years later. You're probably right about this, but I'd like to see a show of hands of who would be shocked two years from now when the third expanded edition of the Christmas set comes out [[and you know it will) and there's newly discovered Christmas tracks with Flo and Mary backup. I think there probably isn't anything, but I'm not willing to bet my life on it.

[TheMotownManiac]

I hope there’s a 2020 version Merry Christmas that is all Mary and Flo. I love a few of The A’s tracks like Little Bright Star and Santa Claus, but, I think i’d Like M&F even better - add a dash of The A’s when needed. I’m not expecting this, but it would be a nice present wouldn’t it? I’m not pushing their agenda one way or the other as I feel the best sound should be the only consideration of who to use on what. If I can deal with Flo not on YCHL, then I can deal with anything.

meanwhile, I don’t know why Mary doesn’t do a Christmas CD - her renditions of the classics could be a warm, fuzzy timeless holiday classic. Anyone doubting her chops can listen to her recent Imagine and rethink their position.

[floyjoy678]

"Old Love" as an example is not really a good argument. Diana did her lead one day and Flo and Mary did background work the next day. Flo was in the studio doing her leads the SAME day as the background vocals being recorded, I find it hard to believe they didn't have her join in with the Andantes for a couple of songs.

[bradsupremes]

"Old Love" as an example is not really a good argument. Diana did her lead one day and Flo and Mary did background work the next day. Flo was in the studio doing her leads the SAME day as the background vocals being recorded, I find it hard to believe they didn't have her join in with the Andantes for a couple of songs.

There are other examples where Mary & Flo or Mary & Cindy would go into the studio and do some background vocal work and then the same day the Andantes came in and did backgrounds on a Supremes track. Why? It could be the producer's preference. I can think of only a few instances where the Supremes and Andantes recorded together in the studio. The third version of "Mother Dear" from 1966 is an example. "The Nitty Gritty" in 1968 was another. If Flo was included on the tracks with the Andantes, we would have heard her. The Christmas album is all Andantes.

[sup_fan]

Of all the producers, by my calculations, HDH and Smokey were the least likely to use the Andantes on the Supremes recordings, although Smokey may not have been as inclined to use Mary and Cindy during the DRATS years. It's wishful thinking to believe most of their recordings- or even half- are absent Flo and Mary.

Smokey used the andantes predominantly once it became DRATS. Of course his early work with the Sups featured a lot of great 3-part harmonies and even the brief shared lead lines on Breathtaking. And there's Flo's outro in Long Gone Lover.

and during the WDOLG and More Hits, he did quite a few unreleased tracks and still kept working out some strong harmonies - Mr Blues, I Idolize You, Too Much a Little Too Soon, Oowee Baby plus others

And then by the time of Symphony, he seems to have no production time with the Sups.

for A Go Go time period, he only did one tune - Misery makes its home. This has Mary and Marlene on backgrounds

and then really none during Sing HDH period.

After it became DRATS, he did a few during the Reflections period - Then.

Join the Temps - Then and Second That Emotion, i believe M and C. maybe Andantes added?

Love child - he's my sunny boy, which did use M and C.

let sunshine - will this be the day [[M and C), Composer [[Andantes)

unreleased DRATS - all using Andantes. Sweet Thing, Are You sure love is the name of this game, treat me nice john henry

Cream of Crop - all using Andantes. Loving You is better than ever, till johnny comes,

Floy Joy sessions - all use Andantes in addition to Sups except Precious little things. hard to tell sometimes what are M and C and what's andantes. like in Automatically Sunshine.

[blackguy69]

Mary and Cindy are on treat me nice John Henry

[sup_fan]

it's possible they are - i haven't listened to this one in forever. it falls into one of the corny Smokey songs i don't like lolol.

because we don't have the expanded editions yet for most of the DRATS material, i'm not really sure of dates. I have a date of "12/18/67" for when they were working on Treat Me Nice John Henry. But of course that could have been when some of the backing track was recorded, when the lead was recorded, etc.

I also have them working on I'm Gonna Make It on 12/18/67. and i think that's one that was the andantes. again - will have to listen to it to confirm

[blackguy69]

it's possible they are - i haven't listened to this one in forever. it falls into one of the corny Smokey songs i don't like lolol.

because we don't have the expanded editions yet for most of the DRATS material, i'm not really sure of dates. I have a date of "12/18/67" for when they were working on Treat Me Nice John Henry. But of course that could have been when some of the backing track was recorded, when the lead was recorded, etc.

I also have them working on I'm Gonna Make It on 12/18/67. and i think that's one that was the andantes. again - will have to listen to it to confirm

Deke Richards clearly stated on I’m Gonna Make It it was Mary and Cindy only.

[sup_fan]

there's another of the "reflections-ish" songs on that albums that is pretty clearly the Andantes. perhaps its I Can't Make It Alone.

I do think it's also M and C on Am I Asking Too Much

[RanRan79]

Deke Richards clearly stated on I’m Gonna Make It it was Mary and Cindy only.

Sounds like Mary and Cindy to me, but I don't buy for a moment that it's anyone other than the Andantes on "John Henry". Mary and Cindy together were incapable of that sound. To me it's "trademark" Andantes on that one.

[RanRan79]

there's another of the "reflections-ish" songs on that albums that is pretty clearly the Andantes. perhaps its I Can't Make It Alone.

I do think it's also M and C on Am I Asking Too Much

Yes, "Make It" is definitely the Andantes and "Am I Asking Too Much" is definitely Mary and Cindy. I love that cut.

[blackguy69]

Sounds like Mary and Cindy to me, but I don't buy for a moment that it's anyone other than the Andantes on "John Henry". Mary and Cindy together were incapable of that sound. To me it's "trademark" Andantes on that one.

i didn’t say the andantes weren’t on it. More than likely it was both