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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    i didn’t say the andantes weren’t on it. More than likely it was both
    Personally I only hear the Andantes, but ya never know.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Personally I only hear the Andantes, but ya never know.
    If they were louder maybe we could tell

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    If they were louder maybe we could tell
    The background is a bit buried, isn't it? Do you like the song? I don't think it had hit potential, but I've always loved it. Thought it might have made a good album track.

  4. #104
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    i think John Henry is too odd-ball lyrics. go figure - i'm not a huge fan of a smokey produced Sups track! lolol

    it's just silly - sort of like Ode to Paul Bunyan. "Name" songs can often be too specific but sometimes it really works.

  5. #105
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    "I'm Gonna Make It [[I Will Wait For You" and "Am I Asking Too Much" is Mary & Cindy

    "I Can't Make It Alone" and "Treat Me Nice John Henry" are the Andantes.

    I agree about Smokey "name" songs. He had a thing for adding names to songs or title. While I love the tracks, I always felt they were limiting to an audience. "Treat Me Nice John Henry" works though as I always felt it was about the folklore character, John Henry.

  6. #106
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    i'm frankly not all that sad that much of the Smokey tracks ended up in the vault. Till Johnny Comes is a beautiful song, although it makes me grin. yes yes, i'm going into the gutter. Just like Diana's song "I Ain't Been Licked!" lolol

    i do think some other sensation tracks should NOT have been relegated to the vaults
    *look of love
    *stormy
    *beginning of the end of love
    *wish i knew
    *if you should walk away
    *heaven must have sent you
    *am i asking too much

    overall i list the vast majority of the album material DRATS released. i just think the way they combined the various tracks into lp's could have been greatly confused. 90 - 95% of the released tracks on their albums, i'd still release. just shifting them around and combining them into the same albums in different manners

  7. #107
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    I agree with all of those you named Sup, although I still think the "Heaven" cut on DRATS sounds a bit stale compared to the Elgins. It's so annoying that the Supremes were consistently given inferior tracks when covering other Motown songs. I really don't understand the direction the producers were going for when doing this.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I agree with all of those you named Sup, although I still think the "Heaven" cut on DRATS sounds a bit stale compared to the Elgins. It's so annoying that the Supremes were consistently given inferior tracks when covering other Motown songs. I really don't understand the direction the producers were going for when doing this.
    Saving Money? Now that would be annoying, and wrong ​because they were the Supremes.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    Saving Money? Now that would be annoying, and wrong ​because they were the Supremes.
    Saving money wasn't a concern because the Supremes paid for recording sessions. I could be wrong in that artists and producers paid for studio time, but I'm under the impression that the artists paid for studio time, not the producers. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can set me straight on this.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Saving money wasn't a concern because the Supremes paid for recording sessions. I could be wrong in that artists and producers paid for studio time, but I'm under the impression that the artists paid for studio time, not the producers. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can set me straight on this.
    I think that was the case. The producers paid for the initial session to record the track. But after artists put a vocal on, the charges were transferred to them.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    I think that was the case. The producers paid for the initial session to record the track. But after artists put a vocal on, the charges were transferred to them.
    Makes sense. So it wouldn't be an issue of money. The producers pay up front knowing they'll recoup the cost when the artist lays a vocal. This leads us back to the initial mystery of why the subpar tracks for Motown covers by the Supremes.

  12. #112
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    So did Mary and Cindy have to pay for sessions they never sang on, if they got credit over the Andantes?

  13. #113
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    It only makes sense that Flo, Mary and Cindy would pay for the sessions where the Andantes sang. After all, it was simply because they were not used not because they were not willing, the Andantes were probably paid for the session and Flo, Mary and Cindy were receiving royalties for those songs they paid for. I think that makes sense.

  14. #114
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    i believe the Producers paid for the initial sessions where they recorded the initial backing tracks. if they used studio singers [[andantes, the water sisters, whomever), the producer would most likely have paid for that because the singers were salaried.

    guessing here - I don't know that the groups were charged for "produced tracks" but rather session time. not totally sure here but if the Supremes were booked to record vocals from 1 - 7 PM on a Wednesday, they'd be charged for that studio time. there are many instances of them working on material from a variety of producers. I've always understood it that producers would be told when a group/singer was scheduled for studio time and then they'd bring in their materials. My assumption is that the producer was then "reimbursed" for the initial costs of the production recording sessions [[where they did backing tracks and all) from the fees charged the singers for studio time.

    I don't know if motown charged one rate for lead singer studio time and another for backing singer studio time. i'm assuming they did not. therefore the groups were billed for studio time regardless of who was recording what, the fees would have been divided across the members. so then technically yes, M F and C were charged for Diana's studio recordings. as things advanced into later 69, maybe they weren't charged for things that were being planned for D solo work

    anyone know if this is correct?

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    It only makes sense that Flo, Mary and Cindy would pay for the sessions where the Andantes sang. After all, it was simply because they were not used not because they were not willing, the Andantes were probably paid for the session and Flo, Mary and Cindy were receiving royalties for those songs they paid for. I think that makes sense.
    According to the Supremes contracts, replacing any of them on recordings when the singer was available and willing to record was forbidden. This was one of the issues raised in Mary Wilson's 1978 lawsuit against Motown.

  16. #116
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    Oh yes. I remember that. Quite bizarre. Getting replaced when you could sing and then having to pay for your substitutes!

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Oh yes. I remember that. Quite bizarre. Getting replaced when you could sing and then having to pay for your substitutes!
    Which is another reason I do not believe much of the talk that people "hear the Andantes" on so many records by the Supremes! LOL!!!

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    According to the Supremes contracts, replacing any of them on recordings when the singer was available and willing to record was forbidden. This was one of the issues raised in Mary Wilson's 1978 lawsuit against Motown.
    Unfortunately, they did it and Mary had a stronger case than she realized. Had she been not bled to death financially, as she stated in her books, and was able to see it through I can just imagine the result.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    According to the Supremes contracts, replacing any of them on recordings when the singer was available and willing to record was forbidden. This was one of the issues raised in Mary Wilson's 1978 lawsuit against Motown.
    Did this work in reverse when the singer was avaiable but declined to work? I recall when Berry was desperately looking for a number one for the group, he had LOVE CHILD ready to record, but Mary was exausted from a tour and went to Mexico. Cindy was still available, but Berry decided not to use either one of them. So how did that work. Did Cindy get roylites since she was willing to work, but Berry said no and did Mary not get royalites because she was not willing to work?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    Did this work in reverse when the singer was avaiable but declined to work? I recall when Berry was desperately looking for a number one for the group, he had LOVE CHILD ready to record, but Mary was exausted from a tour and went to Mexico. Cindy was still available, but Berry decided not to use either one of them. So how did that work. Did Cindy get roylites since she was willing to work, but Berry said no and did Mary not get royalites because she was not willing to work?
    I think they also received royalties on recordings that they didn't actually record, as they were still issued under the Supremes name. J. Randy Taborrelli wrote this in one of his books.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    Did this work in reverse when the singer was avaiable but declined to work? I recall when Berry was desperately looking for a number one for the group, he had LOVE CHILD ready to record, but Mary was exausted from a tour and went to Mexico. Cindy was still available, but Berry decided not to use either one of them. So how did that work. Did Cindy get roylites since she was willing to work, but Berry said no and did Mary not get royalites because she was not willing to work?
    We would have to see the contracts to know if it worked in reverse.
    Last edited by marv2; 09-22-2018 at 12:11 PM.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    I think they also received royalties on recordings that they didn't actually record, as they were still issued under the Supremes name. J. Randy Taborrelli wrote this in one of his books.
    Milven here's your answer right here. Thank you Reese.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Unfortunately, they did it and Mary had a stronger case than she realized. Had she been not bled to death financially, as she stated in her books, and was able to see it through I can just imagine the result.
    I personally would have to see the contract in order to believe this clause as written. There’s no reason for Motown to include it as it worked against them, and since the girls had no real representation, who would have put it in there and why?

    Also, even if it is in there, I’m sure it referred to performances and not recordings as Berry knew how flighty groups were. Just smells fishy to me somewhere.

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