Flo Mary and Cindy on Background

[marybrewster]

It's been determined that there are several instances where Mary is on background without Flo.

But has it ever been discovered that Flo is on background without Mary?

Or Mary without Cindy?

Or Cindy without Mary?

[RanRan79]

There have been times I've suspected Flo is without Mary, but I'm never quite sure if that's because Flo is overpowering Mary or Mary is mixed so low she might as well not be present, like Flo on "Where Did Our Love Go". "Manhattan" is often claimed as a Diana/Flo duet. I don't hear Mary on it at all. It's claimed that Mary is on "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "I'll Try Something New". If she is, she's working with the Andantes because the high female voice in the harmony aint Cindy's, not to my ears. I'd be shocked to find that there was ever a session where Cindy is singing but not Mary.

[floyjoy678]

There's also a few songs that come to my mind that I wonder if it was Flo and the andantes without Mary. I forget where it was quoted but Flo apparently has said she did songs without Mary.

[blackguy69]

Until proven otherwise, there is nothing proven that Flo recorded with the Andantes but without Mary but there is proof that Mary had recorded without Flo. As far as the singles with the tempts, I’m more to believe that either Marlene or louvian sang with Mary and Cindy. Hey Ran I did post the I’ll try something new backgrounds on here but it was moved to the clubhouse

[sup_fan]

What becomes of the broken hearted - mary and diana, no flo

i'll skip the flo leads where D and M are doing backups

Manhattan - no mary. frankly i wonder if this was originally a flo lead. then diana also did a lead.

Tears left over - i've heard that cindy isn't on this but mary is and then a few andantes.

I can never recover - scherrie on all parts except that brief line by mary in the bridge. otherwise no m or c.

We should be closer together - Mary and susaye only

[midnightman]

Wasn't a FOURTH singer on Nathan Jones? I have to be honest, but it was hard to hear Mary or Cindy on there. Not saying that wasn't them on NJ but the way that song was produced, makes me wonder. Bad Weather sounded like it had more background vocalists too [[possibly Wonderlove).

[reese]

Wasn't a FOURTH singer on Nathan Jones? I have to be honest, but it was hard to hear Mary or Cindy on there. Not saying that wasn't them on NJ but the way that song was produced, makes me wonder. Bad Weather sounded like it had more background vocalists too [[possibly Wonderlove).

Clydie King has said she is on NATHAN JONES as well.

[blackguy69]

Wasn't a FOURTH singer on Nathan Jones? I have to be honest, but it was hard to hear Mary or Cindy on there. Not saying that wasn't them on NJ but the way that song was produced, makes me wonder. Bad Weather sounded like it had more background vocalists too [[possibly Wonderlove).

you can hear Mary on it Especially at the end. Cindy had commented that this was difficult sing to sing because you had to be precise on when you can in. Something to that effect.

[midnightman]

^ Oh OK I see. I'm guessing that's Mary singing that second "holdin'" after Jean in the second verse? Definitely sounded like Mary but yeah I see how hard it would be to sing a song like this. It was on some slightly psychedelic rock-soul vibe lol

[midnightman]

Clydie King has said she is on NATHAN JONES as well.

Yeah, I thought so...

[TheMotownManiac]

I definitely hear Mary on Nathan Jones. I do not believe she is on I’m gonna make you love me I do hear her on I’ll try something new. It’s interesting that in her books she never mentioned the fact that she recorded with other singers than Flo. Mary is not on Manhattan but I’m certain it was never a Flo lead as there was no interest at Motown in Flo’s voice as a lead - for a very good reason. However, with the success of YKMHO mixing Flo under Diana for emphasis, they realized what a potent sound it was and, I’m guessing was the impetus for Mary-less Manhattan.

[midnightman]

Yeah IGMYLM only featured Diana, the Andantes and the Tempts. Mary and Cindy ain't on it. Mary's a great singer but that's definitely Louvain with the high notes.

[vgalindo]

I definitely hear Mary on Nathan Jones. I do not believe she is on I’m gonna make you love me I do hear her on I’ll try something new. It’s interesting that in her books she never mentioned the fact that she recorded with other singers than Flo. Mary is not on Manhattan but I’m certain it was never a Flo lead as there was no interest at Motown in Flo’s voice as a lead - for a very good reason. However, with the success of YKMHO mixing Flo under Diana for emphasis, they realized what a potent sound it was and, I’m guessing was the impetus for Mary-less Manhattan.

Weren't we told that on YKMHO that it was actually Diana's voice double layered and not Florence?

[blackguy69]

What Mary said was she wasn’t on any singles except the ones with the temptations I believe Mary and Cindy are on there with an Andante or 2 singing with them

[sup_fan]

Weren't we told that on YKMHO that it was actually Diana's voice double layered and not Florence?

Yes we’ve been told that many times. It wa only that troll Tony Turner that ever said that was Flo doubling w Diana

[marv2]

Yes we’ve been told that many times. It wa only that troll Tony Turner that ever said that was Flo doubling w Diana

It's actually true. The version on the 5 lp set "The Motown Story" in the blue box from 1970 has the version on it with Florence doubling Diana's voice on the lead.

[marv2]

Here is that version:

[RanRan79]

Mary is not on Manhattan but I’m certain it was never a Flo lead as there was no interest at Motown in Flo’s voice as a lead - for a very good reason.

Florence recorded leads nearly every year she was at the company. Her Christmas leads were recorded in September 65 and "Manhattan" was recorded in October 66. What would have changed in that year's time that suddenly no one at Motown was interested in Flo as a lead singer, but somehow was interested in Mary, who had leads in 66 and 67? In any case, "Manhattan" is noted as a Florence Ballard lead on DFTMC, which might lend some validity to Sup's theory that both women recorded it as a lead. I'm thinking what might have happened is that it was originally a Flo lead and maybe it was unfinished. Diana was brought in to finish it. The song seems to be highly regarded among many of us fans, yet it didn't make the original album. So my opinion is that it's likely that "Manhattan" was an unfinished Flo lead, Diana's vocals were added to it, and it was ultimately shelved.

[RanRan79]

Yes we’ve been told that many times. It wa only that troll Tony Turner that ever said that was Flo doubling w Diana

Yeah it's clear that Diana is double tracked with herself. Flo is killing it on the background though.

[sup_fan]

Here is that version:

flo is not doubling diana on the verses. YKMHO, in the unedited form, does have much more going on in the backgrounds that other songs. the choruses are both bg and lead, and then the backgrounds do more with the choruses during the fade.

[sup_fan]

Florence recorded leads nearly every year she was at the company. Her Christmas leads were recorded in September 65 and "Manhattan" was recorded in October 66. What would have changed in that year's time that suddenly no one at Motown was interested in Flo as a lead singer, but somehow was interested in Mary, who had leads in 66 and 67? In any case, "Manhattan" is noted as a Florence Ballard lead on DFTMC, which might lend some validity to Sup's theory that both women recorded it as a lead. I'm thinking what might have happened is that it was originally a Flo lead and maybe it was unfinished. Diana was brought in to finish it. The song seems to be highly regarded among many of us fans, yet it didn't make the original album. So my opinion is that it's likely that "Manhattan" was an unfinished Flo lead, Diana's vocals were added to it, and it was ultimately shelved.

agreed - for the specialty projects, M and F were recorded more. whether or not their songs got slated for the final released product is another matter

Sing Country Western & Pop
*shared lead on makes No Difference
*mary lead on Sunset

Bit of Liverpool
*mary shares lead/spotlighted vocals on You Really Got a hold on me
*flo lead on I saw Him Standing there [[not released)

Sam Cooke
*flo lead on Good News
*mary has a small spotlighted lead vocal on Chain Gang

There's a Place
*mary lead on our Day will Come
*flo lead on People [[but had the record been released, it would not have been included. Per the liner notes from the expanded release Hip O Select set)

Christmas
*flo lead on Silent Night and O Holy Night [[neither released)
*Mary lead on The Christmas Song

Sing R&H
*mary lead on Falling in Love
*guessing that Flo recorded the lead on Manhattan as a lead back in fall 66 but then Diana also recorded a lead at some point and they tried doing as duet but eventually cut from set

Disney
*m and f leads on DAvey Crocket

Seems like Broadway To Hollywood would not have included any M or F leads. at least none that we're aware of. Tribute to the Girls was incomplete. story is they recorded a few songs [[sincerely, mr sandman, around the world) but would have pulled a few tracks from the cancelled There's a Place to fill out the lp. possibly could have included Our Day and/or People. Motown Around The World never got Sup vocals so who knows. but it was an earlier lp and during a time with M and F were getting leads on the special projects. so possibly.

[marv2]

flo is not doubling diana on the verses. YKMHO, in the unedited form, does have much more going on in the backgrounds that other songs. the choruses are both bg and lead, and then the backgrounds do more with the choruses during the fade.

This is the version they were talking about however.......... Florence characterized it as "mirroring" what the lead was doing.

[marv2]

Here's an even better version of it.........

[paul_nixon]

Florence recorded leads nearly every year she was at the company. Her Christmas leads were recorded in September 65 and "Manhattan" was recorded in October 66. What would have changed in that year's time that suddenly no one at Motown was interested in Flo as a lead singer, but somehow was interested in Mary, who had leads in 66 and 67? In any case, "Manhattan" is noted as a Florence Ballard lead on DFTMC, which might lend some validity to Sup's theory that both women recorded it as a lead. I'm thinking what might have happened is that it was originally a Flo lead and maybe it was unfinished. Diana was brought in to finish it. The song seems to be highly regarded among many of us fans, yet it didn't make the original album. So my opinion is that it's likely that "Manhattan" was an unfinished Flo lead, Diana's vocals were added to it, and it was ultimately shelved.

To me it is clear there are THREE voices in parts on Manhattan - not sure where the theory about it being a Flo lead came from, Flo is deffo in the background but it's very much a Diana vehicle and there's no evidence that there is more than one recording as far as I can see.

[sup_fan]

To me it is clear there are THREE voices in parts on Manhattan - not sure where the theory about it being a Flo lead came from, Flo is deffo in the background but it's very much a Diana vehicle and there's no evidence that there is more than one recording as far as I can see.

totally agree that there has been nothing formal to identify this as a Flo lead. i assume it's all been just fan speculation. My reason for suggesting it MIGHT have been intended as a Flo lead is 1) she sings the lead for much of the song 2) if this was a duet between F and D, except for the last note, there's no duet harmonization 3) flo really belts and holds the last note as if she was singing the song herself and 4) there are some sloppy cuts on Flo's lead. For the most part, Flo sings the same number of bars and measures along with D but there are a couple where it's an awkward edit/end to flo. I'm wondering if she recorded a full lead and then they edited to make it sound like she was just doubling on intro lines to each verse

[sup_fan]

another interesting discussion in regards to who's singing the Sup bg's is when were M, F, C, etc overdubbing multiple backgrounds versus Andantes coming in.

On Going Down For 3rd Time, we know which parts are andantes and which are M and F

But what about Up the Ladder, Touch, loving Country? I wonder if Andantes are doubling on the choruses [[similar to what they did on Sing CW&P) to Ladder. I think Loving Country sounds like M, J and C doing multiple background lines and then in Touch it's all over. I think some multiple background parts iwth MJC and some added Andantes

[floyjoy678]

Hmm those are good points that it may have originally been a Flo lead. Mary is definitely on the song, the last note at the end you just barely hear her on the bottom harmony.

[blackguy69]

If I’m correct Jean is definitely singing in the background when she joined. Loving country I always assumed the andantes are there with the girls. Touch not sure if it’s the andantes or the blackberries with them.

[sup_fan]

you're right - Jean was singing background on many of the 70s songs. she'd often take the top harmony, cindy middle and mary bottom.

and i'm sort of using Andantes as a general term meaning a backing group other than the Sups. not sure about Blackberries vs Andantes

[RanRan79]

To me it is clear there are THREE voices in parts on Manhattan - not sure where the theory about it being a Flo lead came from, Flo is deffo in the background but it's very much a Diana vehicle and there's no evidence that there is more than one recording as far as I can see.

I don't hear three voices. I don't hear Mary at all, but it's possible she's there. The theory has been floating around for decades. I believe Randall Wilson mentions it in his book back in the 80s. Whether he was operating off of research or a fan's opinion, I can't say. The more legitimate source, as I mentioned in the post you replied to, is Don't Forget the Motorcity, which has "Manhattan" noted as [Lead-Florence Ballard], which again gives some legitimacy to Sup's theory that Flo recorded it as a lead.

[sup_fan]

yeah i don't hear 3 voice on Manhattan either. especially at the end. you hear Diana cut off well before Flo. And it's only flo at the very end.

i've mentioned this before and will repeat. if i had to pick a flo lead on R&H, i'd probably have gone with Johnny One Note first. i could hear flo going to CHURCH on that one lol.

Although if she did a full lead on Manhattan, i'd love to hear that too. hear how she maybe played with the lyrics and all. Diana does a perfectly acceptable job on the song but seems to be singing it rather straight. it's all about lyrical wit on this track and that doesn't always really come across.

[blackguy69]

For the naysayers look at it from this angle, how many on here said Mary and Cindy didn’t record on the funny girl album and come to find out they sang on every track

[lakeside]

Here's an even better version of it.........

OMG...I nearly pissed myself. Thanks, Marv!

[vgalindo]

For the naysayers look at it from this angle, how many on here said Mary and Cindy didn’t record on the funny girl album and come to find out they sang on every track

They are not on the original album release. They are on the expanded digital release. This is what I thought we were told. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[blackguy69]

They are not on the original album release. They are on the expanded digital release. This is what I thought we were told. Please correct me if I am wrong.

all they did was removed the andantes vocals so that it was just Diana Mary and Cindy

[RanRan79]

yeah i don't hear 3 voice on Manhattan either. especially at the end. you hear Diana cut off well before Flo. And it's only flo at the very end.

i've mentioned this before and will repeat. if i had to pick a flo lead on R&H, i'd probably have gone with Johnny One Note first. i could hear flo going to CHURCH on that one lol.

Although if she did a full lead on Manhattan, i'd love to hear that too. hear how she maybe played with the lyrics and all. Diana does a perfectly acceptable job on the song but seems to be singing it rather straight. it's all about lyrical wit on this track and that doesn't always really come across.

I love that note at the end of "Manhattan". I would have loved to hear Flo lead on "I Could Write a Book". I think she would have tore that up. Mary was perfect for "Falling In Love With Love". She sounded great. I'm glad that the R&H sessions were really a group effort. I'm not a fan of the original album [[I love most of the outtakes as opposed to what actually got released in 1967) but the girls really shined on most of the songs from the entire collection.

[RanRan79]

all they did was removed the andantes vocals so that it was just Diana Mary and Cindy

I thought Mary and Cindy were "wiped" off of some of the tracks and replaced with the Andantes or whomever. It makes sense that the Andantes might have just been added to Mary and Cindy.

[RanRan79]

I think it's possible that Mary isn't on at least the first version of "Stop In the Name of Love". I know there's this controversy over whether the single version is the Supremes or the Andantes, but I'm positive I hear Florence so I'm thinking this may be an instance where she does the job with one or more Andantes.

[vgalindo]

all they did was removed the andantes vocals so that it was just Diana Mary and Cindy

Thank you. I stand corrected.

[vgalindo]

[QUOTE=RanRan79;472852]I thought Mary and Cindy were "wiped" off of some of the tracks and replaced with the Andantes or whomever. It makes sense that the Andantes might have just been added to Mary and Cindy.[QUOTE]
.
This it what I thought too! I thought they said they found these tracks with Mary and Cindy on the background but they were not used and the Andantes or whomever re-recorded the backgrounds and that was what was released. But I could be wrong but that is what I thought I had heard.

[blackguy69]

I think it's possible that Mary isn't on at least the first version of "Stop In the Name of Love". I know there's this controversy over whether the single version is the Supremes or the Andantes, but I'm positive I hear Florence so I'm thinking this may be an instance where she does the job with one or more Andantes.

i think officially Mary Flo and the andantes are on the album version while the andantes are on the 45 version

[BayouMotownMan]

It does not sound like Mary on Going Down For The Third time [[save me, save me)

[marv2]

OMG...I nearly pissed myself. Thanks, Marv!

I did too when I first saw this. You are most welcome Lakeside! LOL!!!!!

[RanRan79]

This it what I thought too! I thought they said they found these tracks with Mary and Cindy on the background but they were not used and the Andantes or whomever re-recorded the backgrounds and that was what was released. But I could be wrong but that is what I thought I had heard.

Yeah, that was my understanding of it.

[thanxal]

They are not on the original album release. They are on the expanded digital release. This is what I thought we were told. Please correct me if I am wrong.

This is from the booklet from the re-issue. I consider this the ultimate authority on the matter. Andy and co. use the actual source material to determine who sang what.

The girls rarely recorded together anymore and sang to pre-recorded tracks. Styne coached the three Supremes, but was dismayed to discover the final version of the album used studio background singers, who were dubbed in two-and-a-half weeks after Mary and Cindy cut their parts.

Then...

'At the sessions I attended it was just Diana ••• then they added the other two girls to the recording, Mary and Cindy. I liked it. It was pure. It was just three voices ••• They were a fine group. Very versatile." - Jules Styne

Further the song credits are clear...

Track cut June 20, 1968, lead and group recorded June 23, 1968, additional background vocals addedJuly8, 1968

To be clear, Mary and Cindy were on the original recordings with additional background vocals added. The digital expanded edition stripped out the additional background singers on tracks 11-20 to give us just Diana, Mary, and Cindy singing.

[sup_fan]

all they did was removed the andantes vocals so that it was just Diana Mary and Cindy

on the FG expanded release you can listen to the original lp and then the update DMC only version. there are some tracks on that later that are only D, no backups because they could not find any M and C backing track. I believe they used 1 or 2 lines of the Andantes [[or whomever recorded the bulk of the bgs) in I'm The Greatest Star because you need the lines to complete the song's story. otherwise it's only DMC.

The backing parts that M and C do don't always necessarily coincide with the actual released versions. so there are probably part with them in there, parts where they're totally covered up or even removed.

[sup_fan]

It does not sound like Mary on Going Down For The Third time [[save me, save me)

on the mono version it's F and M only. for the stereo version [[which includes the additional Save Me Save Me along with ooo's during the verses) it's the andantes

[imakicola]

There have been times I've suspected Flo is without Mary, but I'm never quite sure if that's because Flo is overpowering Mary or Mary is mixed so low she might as well not be present, like Flo on "Where Did Our Love Go". "Manhattan" is often claimed as a Diana/Flo duet. I don't hear Mary on it at all. It's claimed that Mary is on "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "I'll Try Something New". If she is, she's working with the Andantes because the high female voice in the harmony aint Cindy's, not to my ears. I'd be shocked to find that there was ever a session where Cindy is singing but not Mary.

Oddly, in Where Did Our Love Go, I only hear Mary and not Flo. In the German version flo is there. It makes me wonder if flo was severely turned down in the English WDOLG

[marybrewster]

i think officially Mary Flo and the andantes are on the album version while the andantes are on the 45 version

I thought Mary and the Andantes were on the 45 version, just no Flo?

[floyjoy678]

The backgrounds on the 45 version and album version are the same. It's most likely Flo, Mary and the Andantes.