Autopsy: The Last Hours of Florence Ballard on REELZ Channel-Sun 7/29/08 9PM

[midnightman]

i think you're referring to Space Mountain lol

HAHAHA

OK, well anyway, my original point still stands.

It's a MINOR nitpick, mmkay guys?

[floyjoy678]

Wasn't she a heavy smoker? I can't recall where I read that she was, but if true, smoking has long been established to lead to heart disease.

I've seen several photos of Flo with a cigarette in her hand. All three of them smoked heavily from what it seems like.

[lucky2012]

No, Magic mountain is a Six Flags resort in Santa Clarita. Disneyland is in Anaheim ... about 1 ½ hour drive from each other [[if the traffic is decent).

Quite right. Opposite ends of LA metro. The first time I saw the "new" Supremes [[JMC, 1971) was indeed at Disneyland and I believe in the shadow of Space Mountain. It was probably way too soon for Flo to have been visiting them.

[midnightman]

I've seen several photos of Flo with a cigarette in her hand. All three of them smoked heavily from what it seems like.

I would conclude the same. Nothing too unique about Flo's smoking.

[antceleb12]

I think most people came to the conclusion on their own that given 1960's and early 1970's, treating heart disease issues were not as well addressed as they are today. Even open heart surgeries were in the beginning stages. So yes, I very well agree that Flo might have had a heart disorder that wasn't understood back then.

The presenter did NOT mention if heart disease ran in the Ballard family that Flo's heredity also played a part.

Plus I agree that waiting for Flo's relatives to assist Nicole probably did more damage in waiting. Things like calling 911 for help didn't really exist back then unless the normal telephone operator was skilled in calling emergency for help.

Here's what I find interesting. We all know Florence drank and smoked. We all know Florence had difficulty managing her weight. That being said, even with her alcoholism, there were others who drank FAR worse and far longer than Florence did and lived longer [[before either beating it or drinking themselves to death via cirrhosis), and while Florence smoked, she certainly wasn't - from what we know - a smoking chimney. Second, Florence may have struggled with her weight, but again, her weight issues were minuscule as compared with those of other people. Photos from the last couple years of her life hardly reveal someone who had let themselves go - certainly not like Elvis. It does not seem plausible to me that Florence's early [[and rather sudden) death were the sole result of her drinking and/or weight issues - at least not without a third, underlying factor.

Here's where blood pressure and heart disease come in. I believe Florence's death certificate states she died from coronary thrombosis, which is a blood clot inside the heart. While heart disease usually presents physiologically noticeable symptoms and is detectable earlier on, blood clots can build up asymptomatically over a long period of time, but its presence usually doesn't present itself until is causes further complications, such as a stroke or an aneurysm. It's a silent killer. While I believe the drinking, smoking, and battle with her weight certainly was not good for her heart, I find it hard to believe that Florence could have all of a sudden - two months before she died - started suffering from a heart condition. Grant it, I of course could be wrong, but what makes more sense to me is that any heart problems she was suffering from was a result of a pre-existing problem such as a blood clot. Certainly the alcoholism and weight fluctuations helped speed up the process, but I've always found it very odd that in all of the reports of Florence's later years we have, nobody mentions that Florence was suffering from any physical ailments until roughly two months or so before she died.

Florence's family reported that in her last couple of months, she suffered from high fevers, was hot all of the time, and was constantly thirsty, among other symptoms. These are classic symptoms of unmaintained high blood pressure. I believe Florence was on medication to help control her blood pressure, but if a clot had already formed, it would have trumped the medication. My grandmother suffered from high blood pressure, as well, took medication for it, but died unexpectedly from an aneurysm that had built up at an early age. Silent and sudden killer. Unfortunately, take out the alcoholism and weight issues, I think Florence would have died at a young age regardless, especially with the rather immature knowledge we had back then about high blood pressure and heart disease as pre-existing conditions. I don't believe her firing, depression, or even her alcoholism were primary factors at all. I think the more plausible explanation is that she was predisposed to a genetic condition, developed a clot that built up over time, and died from something that would have killed her regardless if she had maintained a happy, successful singing career or not.

[TheMotownManiac]

Diana was a wannabe diva. She lived for any moment where she could be exalted above someone else, set apart as special. No surprise to me that she would jump at the chance to have her own dressing room. Personally, I find it hard to believe that by 1966 if Flo or Mary had been offered their own dressing room that they wouldn't have taken it. What pissed them off was that Diana got it. [[And they should have been pissed. I would've said "if she wants her own dressing room, I want my own too and if I don't get it, then she can't get it either" and then I would've proceeded to be all up in Miss Ross' dressing room every chance I got. I would change clothes in the "Supremes" dressing room and then I'd do my makeup in Miss Ross' dressing room or vice versa. She would've never had that room to herself.)

But again, this is where I blame Gordy. Diana did what young girls her age do. But he was the boss, the buck always stopped with him. Gordy was no dummy. He knew group solidarity and unity was essential to success. But he thought of Diana as indispensable and the others as throwaways. So for him it was more important to keep Diana happy and less so for the others. When Diana complains of the girls basically treating her like crap, she has herself to blame because she campaigned for all of the things that pissed them off. But ultimately Gordy was the problem. If Ross wanted her own dressing room, they all should've gotten their own. If not, then they all have to share. But I can't imagine they were playing venues at this point that couldn't provide three separate dressing rooms. Gordy was making a point and he used Ross to do it. Sadly, he is seen as the innocent in the situation by the Diana haters but everything that happened to the Supremes was his decision.

I’m A little disappointed in your comments about the dressing rooms. Would you really be that bratty in an already tense group situation? I doubt very much that the separate dressing rooms were at diva ploy, but rather to ease the tension‘s before shows. Diana was a nervous wreck as it is, having to do two and three shows at night and argue and fight and have tenseness Before during and after shows would just exacerbate the situation, and quite frankly, be a stupid thing to do. Most television studios have plenty of dressing rooms for each to have their own , Of course many theaters do as well. I’m sure that if Mary and flow or Mary and Cindy wanted separate dressing rooms they would’ve been able to have them but that doesn’t necessarily mean they wanted Them. After Outer Drive, when Flo came back she wasn’t speaking to either mary or Diana…… I did not travel with them to and from shows. Regardless of what one person on this forum says, Mary was just as complicit with Flo’s ouster as diana was……Some think she was even worse as it was Mary who turned on Flo at the meeting When Flo was expecting Mary to stand up for her. As far as Diana having our own dressing room, if the vibes weren’t good in a community dressing room it made sense for her to have her own so she could prepare emotionally and mentally to do the show…… After all she had 90% of the work load. She was already under 100 pounds, separate dressing room was the smart thing to do……

[RanRan79]

I’m A little disappointed in your comments about the dressing rooms. Would you really be that bratty in an already tense group situation? I doubt very much that the separate dressing rooms were at diva ploy, but rather to ease the tension‘s before shows. Diana was a nervous wreck as it is, having to do two and three shows at night and argue and fight and have tenseness Before during and after shows would just exacerbate the situation, and quite frankly, be a stupid thing to do. Most television studios have plenty of dressing rooms for each to have their own , Of course many theaters do as well. I’m sure that if Mary and flow or Mary and Cindy wanted separate dressing rooms they would’ve been able to have them but that doesn’t necessarily mean they wanted Them. After Outer Drive, when Flo came back she wasn’t speaking to either mary or Diana…… I did not travel with them to and from shows. Regardless of what one person on this forum says, Mary was just as complicit with Flo’s ouster as diana was……Some think she was even worse as it was Mary who turned on Flo at the meeting When Flo was expecting Mary to stand up for her. As far as Diana having our own dressing room, if the vibes weren’t good in a community dressing room it made sense for her to have her own so she could prepare emotionally and mentally to do the show…… After all she had 90% of the work load. She was already under 100 pounds, separate dressing room was the smart thing to do……

Yeah, I'm not buying it. I know the mind and world of teenage/young adult women very well, and the descriptions of Diana even in the Primettes days SCREAMS a girl who would've loved to have a separate dressing room or separate anything that further let the world know that, sure she's a member of the Supremes, but she's THE Supreme. By your logic, if things had gotten cool first with Flo on one side and Diana and Mary on the other, Florence would've been given her own dressing room. No way. That dressing room thing was seen as a further way to separate Diana from the other two in the minds of anyone working behind the scenes, lest there be confusion. After all, if the dressing room wasn't the issue, couldn't Gordy have just gone to Flo and Mary and said stop making life for the lead singer so difficult?

And I don't know if I buy that Diana asked for her own dressing room. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if this was another one of Gordy's ideas and Diana jumped at the chance. As I'm sure the other girls would've done too. [[I can imagine that being three young women in a single dressing room before and after a show- especially after a show when you're hot, sweaty and stinky- the idea of a dressing room to one's self would be a dream, but only one member got the chance and that's not fair.)

And yes, I would've been that petty. Diana Ross surely was no stranger to petty behavior, so why should Flo and Mary have taken the high road?

[Circa 1824]

Flo's daughter was drugged up or is she depressed ?

[midnightman]

The dressing room thing. Look, these were three young women barely out of high school. Also I'm QUITE sure the Supremes weren't the only act with dressing room issues...

It's possible Gordy thought it was best to separate them. Flo hinted at it during her interviews with Peter. But she indicated ALL THREE had separate dressing rooms and hotel rooms.

As she said, "it seems like we're splitting in that matter".

[floyjoy678]

I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

[midnightman]

I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

There IS a photo of Diana and Flo sharing a bedroom at the Apollo:

[TheMotownManiac]

Yeah, I'm not buying it. I know the mind and world of teenage/young adult women very well, and the descriptions of Diana even in the Primettes days SCREAMS a girl who would've loved to have a separate dressing room or separate anything that further let the world know that, sure she's a member of the Supremes, but she's THE Supreme. By your logic, if things had gotten cool first with Flo on one side and Diana and Mary on the other, Florence would've been given her own dressing room. No way. That dressing room thing was seen as a further way to separate Diana from the other two in the minds of anyone working behind the scenes, lest there be confusion. After all, if the dressing room wasn't the issue, couldn't Gordy have just gone to Flo and Mary and said stop making life for the lead singer so difficult?

And I don't know if I buy that Diana asked for her own dressing room. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if this was another one of Gordy's ideas and Diana jumped at the chance. As I'm sure the other girls would've done too. [[I can imagine that being three young women in a single dressing room before and after a show- especially after a show when you're hot, sweaty and stinky- the idea of a dressing room to one's self would be a dream, but only one member got the chance and that's not fair.)

And yes, I would've been that petty. Diana Ross surely was no stranger to petty behavior, so why should Flo and Mary have taken the high road?

I agree that Diana might have jumped at the chance, but regardless of If she wanted one or not, the smart thing to do, with the group not getting along, for the good of the show, was to separate them… I don’t see how you can argue that.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Is the Florence Ballard movie coming out soon? Someone here posts about it frequently.

[Circa 1824]

Diana Ross was the act. If Diana was hot that night, the show was hot. If Diana was cold that night, the show was cold. Diana deserved her own private dressing room if that contributed towards her giving a better performance. After all, she was the act.

[RanRan79]

The dressing room thing. Look, these were three young women barely out of high school. Also I'm QUITE sure the Supremes weren't the only act with dressing room issues...

It's possible Gordy thought it was best to separate them. Flo hinted at it during her interviews with Peter. But she indicated ALL THREE had separate dressing rooms and hotel rooms.

Once they hit the big time they always had separate hotel rooms, but I don't recall ever hearing that they each had separate dressing rooms. I think Gordy thought it best to separate them also, but not because of the friction. I think he did it as a sign of Diana's status even within the group. Plus Mary and Flo and others behind the scenes have said that they thought Gordy intentionally alienated Diana from Mary and Flo because it was actually easier to control her.

[RanRan79]

I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

I'm assuming there were times when separate dressing rooms may not have always been an option, depending on where they played and how many other artists were booked, particularly when doing television shows. In regards to Flo's last night with the group, so many different versions of the night have been told that it's hard to pin down the facts, but the stories that stick out in my mind are always taking place "backstage", whether that's a dressing room or the general backstage area, I don't know.

[RanRan79]

I agree that Diana might have jumped at the chance, but regardless of If she wanted one or not, the smart thing to do, with the group not getting along, for the good of the show, was to separate them… I don’t see how you can argue that.

If your point is that it would've been a wise decision on Gordy's part to separate them due to the friction, there is no argument against that. Set aside the fact [[my opinion anyway) that Gordy was the cause of the friction in the first place, if he was really about helping the situation, why give one girl a dressing room over the others? Surely he would've been smart enough to know that while this may stop some of the before and after show bickering, it would not put an end to it in general and would only increase it, since young women have a tendency to be jealous when another woman seems to be getting more of something than she. [[And ladies I realize I'm generalizing so I'll take my chastisements as they come.) If Gordy wanted to ease the tension then why not give all three girls their own dressing room? That's the argument I'm making. I don't see how anyone can argue that giving one girl her own anything vs the other two makes any sense when the folks in charge should be doing everything they can to make the ship run as smoothly as possible. There is no smooth sailing when you have three young ladies and one is getting special treatment. 1966, 1776, 2016...no matter the year, young women that age tend to react to the situation in the same way. Gordy knew that.

[midnightman]

Once they hit the big time they always had separate hotel rooms, but I don't recall ever hearing that they each had separate dressing rooms. I think Gordy thought it best to separate them also, but not because of the friction. I think he did it as a sign of Diana's status even within the group. Plus Mary and Flo and others behind the scenes have said that they thought Gordy intentionally alienated Diana from Mary and Flo because it was actually easier to control her.

Yeah, sounds like they were concerned their friend was being brainwashed by Gordy. I mean if you put yourselves in their shoes, you can kinda see where all three were coming from. You got two members who seem more independent and another who was desperate to be somebody that they were willing to sacrifice a lot even if it meant alienating from her friends even if that wasn't the intention. Happens with a lot of groups who have that stand out member or a lead singer. By setting Diana apart, Gordy was intentionally fracturing what had been a really close bond between three best friends. The music business is dirty.

[RanRan79]

The music business is dirty, especially to young girls...young Black girls...young Black girls in the 1960s. There's so much misogyny in the Supremes' story and apparently even among the fans. Diana, Flo and Mary catch a lot of hell for things that happened a million years ago, but 99 percent of the folks who criticize the Supremes for whatever reason, seem to go silent when it comes to Berry, and if not silent they actually back him up. Who cares about how people get treated as long as we get that great Motown sound. We're a sick society folks.

[jobucats]

The music business is dirty, especially to young girls...young Black girls...young Black girls in the 1960s. There's so much misogyny in the Supremes' story and apparently even among the fans. Diana, Flo and Mary catch a lot of hell for things that happened a million years ago, but 99 percent of the folks who criticize the Supremes for whatever reason, seem to go silent when it comes to Berry, and if not silent they actually back him up. Who cares about how people get treated as long as we get that great Motown sound. We're a sick society folks.

This is a great perspective, RanRan79.

[midnightman]

The music business is dirty, especially to young girls...young Black girls...young Black girls in the 1960s. There's so much misogyny in the Supremes' story and apparently even among the fans. Diana, Flo and Mary catch a lot of hell for things that happened a million years ago, but 99 percent of the folks who criticize the Supremes for whatever reason, seem to go silent when it comes to Berry, and if not silent they actually back him up. Who cares about how people get treated as long as we get that great Motown sound. We're a sick society folks.

Yeah you see the defenses he gets while Mary, Diana and Flo gets nothing but criticism. Instead of uplifting a group that broke racial and musical barriers, we always shame one of them. Berry Gordy did a NUMBER on all three of them and not to mention the other female Motown acts in his roster yet the women get shamed for the same things that are seen as "normal" when it's male acts like the Temptations, who arguably had FAR more drama than anything going on in the Supremes' backyard.

And in the end, you see how Flo, Mary and Diana left with when they left [[or had to leave, in Flo's case) Motown... a group helps make your label one of the most successful recording labels in history and that's how you repay them? Just $100,000-250,000?!

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

... I can't imagine who would state that Mary wasn't there ...

[floyjoy678]

... I can't imagine who would state that Mary wasn't there ...

It was in Taborellis latest book on Diana. To paraphrase he said Mary bolted straight for her hotel room after the show while Flo and Diana got into it in the dressing room. Berry then phoned Flo the next day and told her if she goes on stage he'll throw her off.

[RanRan79]

Yeah you see the defenses he gets while Mary, Diana and Flo gets nothing but criticism. Instead of uplifting a group that broke racial and musical barriers, we always shame one of them. Berry Gordy did a NUMBER on all three of them and not to mention the other female Motown acts in his roster yet the women get shamed for the same things that are seen as "normal" when it's male acts like the Temptations, who arguably had FAR more drama than anything going on in the Supremes' backyard.

And in the end, you see how Flo, Mary and Diana left with when they left [[or had to leave, in Flo's case) Motown... a group helps make your label one of the most successful recording labels in history and that's how you repay them? Just $100,000-250,000?!

Yes! The antics of the male artists on Motown definitely get a different reaction than the antics of the women, particularly the Supremes. Flo was surely lowballed with her severance, but she probably walked away from Motown with the best money compared to the other two, considering how much she got in 1968 money. Diana got the worst of it. After everything she did in the 70s as a solo act alone, you would've expected her to have more money.

[sup_fan]

Yeah you see the defenses he gets while Mary, Diana and Flo gets nothing but criticism. Instead of uplifting a group that broke racial and musical barriers, we always shame one of them. Berry Gordy did a NUMBER on all three of them and not to mention the other female Motown acts in his roster yet the women get shamed for the same things that are seen as "normal" when it's male acts like the Temptations, who arguably had FAR more drama than anything going on in the Supremes' backyard.

And in the end, you see how Flo, Mary and Diana left with when they left [[or had to leave, in Flo's case) Motown... a group helps make your label one of the most successful recording labels in history and that's how you repay them? Just $100,000-250,000?!

the girls earned what their contracts stated they would earn. While one could argue that the contracts were overly lopsided in motown's favor, too bad. that's what the girls signed. They certainly were not in a position to negotiate more favorable terms when they started out. But after the hits started, they quickly were resigned. I'm not sure how long each contract was but they surely had at least 1 or more times of renewal during their peak years. At any point they could have negotiated better terms or had a lawyer review them. They did not. they were adults and they willingly signed legal documents that outline exactly what their payment would be for engagements and recordings.

The also received statements from motown on their monies. While motown was notorious for over inflating their press releases regarding million sellers and record sales, the girls could have simply looked at their statements and realized the truth. All three of them were extravagant shoppers and lived very VERY well. given the rates they were actually earning, they might have been wise to be a bit more conservative with their money.

[RanRan79]

It was in Taborellis latest book on Diana. To paraphrase he said Mary bolted straight for her hotel room after the show while Flo and Diana got into it in the dressing room. Berry then phoned Flo the next day and told her if she goes on stage he'll throw her off.

Even in "Call Her Miss Ross" JRandyT always tries to paint Mary as some kind of wimp, cowering in a corner when the drama breaks out. I think it's pretty much understood that he had an axe to grind where she was concerned also. I'm surprised his followup to CHMR wasn't "NightMare Girl" or some such book. Lol Anyway, despite his depiction of her as a scaredy cat, it was Brenda Holloway who tells the story of when she and Diana got into it real tough on the Dick Clark tour, Mary was right behind Diana ready to jump something off. The Supremes have a well deserved image as glamorous, sophisticated young ladies, but nothing about any of them makes me believe they were anything less than tough. Each of the Supremes would get in yo ass if they had too.

[RanRan79]

the girls earned what their contracts stated they would earn. While one could argue that the contracts were overly lopsided in motown's favor, too bad. that's what the girls signed. They certainly were not in a position to negotiate more favorable terms when they started out. But after the hits started, they quickly were resigned. I'm not sure how long each contract was but they surely had at least 1 or more times of renewal during their peak years. At any point they could have negotiated better terms or had a lawyer review them. They did not. they were adults and they willingly signed legal documents that outline exactly what their payment would be for engagements and recordings.

The also received statements from motown on their monies. While motown was notorious for over inflating their press releases regarding million sellers and record sales, the girls could have simply looked at their statements and realized the truth. All three of them were extravagant shoppers and lived very VERY well. given the rates they were actually earning, they might have been wise to be a bit more conservative with their money.

I thought Mary said their royalty statements actually went to Motown, no? While what you outline is business, Motown was an unethical company. Lopsided contracts signed by people who were barely adults, without legal representation, and surely uneducated to anything dealing with the financials of the business. If we're going to talk about company practice, fine, but lets not pretend like any of this was ethical. Motown did what it needed to do to benefit itself. Essentially what the Supremes did was sign contracts that benefited the company pretty much at a disservice to themselves. On top of all that, Motown was nickel and diming everything the group did, including forcing them to pay for recording sessions, the majority of which wouldn't see the light of day for decades. The label forced themselves upon the group as management, allowing the company to collect even more money off of them. Motown was in charge of the girl's bank accounts and the ladies were having to get permission for the company to sign off on anything. The Supremes also got an allowance, so anything they were spending was at the control of Motown. And any time a label doesn't want you doing your own accounting you know they're up to no good. The music business is a dirty business, but a business just the same. Businesses today, not even in music, are doing whatever they can to maximize their profits even at the expense of the people employed there. That's just how things go. Fortunately today we often have legal recourse and even have laws in place to keep some things in check. The Supremes didn't always have that benefit. Motown cheated them kids left and right and I'm not buying that it was cool because it was the way things were done nor because we got great records in the process.

[PeaceNHarmony]

the girls earned what their contracts stated they would earn. While one could argue that the contracts were overly lopsided in motown's favor, too bad. that's what the girls signed. They certainly were not in a position to negotiate more favorable terms when they started out. But after the hits started, they quickly were resigned. I'm not sure how long each contract was but they surely had at least 1 or more times of renewal during their peak years. At any point they could have negotiated better terms or had a lawyer review them. They did not. they were adults and they willingly signed legal documents that outline exactly what their payment would be for engagements and recordings.

The also received statements from motown on their monies. While motown was notorious for over inflating their press releases regarding million sellers and record sales, the girls could have simply looked at their statements and realized the truth. All three of them were extravagant shoppers and lived very VERY well. given the rates they were actually earning, they might have been wise to be a bit more conservative with their money.

Sadly, correct. And fact is Florence's departing contract, said to be $100,000- , is equal to over $500,000 today. Separating Ballard's sad demise from her finances, she should have been able to ladder that windfall sufficiently to last her lifetime. Hard truth. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of her neighborhood classmates never had that kind of income and managed to make good lives for themselves. But self-responsibility and common sense do not create a villain-ess, do they?

[midnightman]

$100,000 payment wasn't a lot of money.

Not in 1967, not in 1977 and definitely not in 1980...

That was not enough for Florence... even if she spent wisely. Sadly for her, the husband she married spent half of the money they got while her lawyers ran away with another chunk, which is why she filed charges against them later on.

[marv2]

Sadly, correct. And fact is Florence's departing contract, said to be $100,000- , is equal to over $500,000 today. Separating Ballard's sad demise from her finances, she should have been able to ladder that windfall sufficiently to last her lifetime. Hard truth. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of her neighborhood classmates never had that kind of income and managed to make good lives for themselves. But self-responsibility and common sense do not create a villain-ess, do they?

I love how you guys just totally leave out HUGE chunks of the story! LOL! You forgot that Florence never really saw that money because her Attorney, Mr. Braun stole it all! He took the checks and ran. Memba?

[marv2]

$100,000 payment wasn't a lot of money.

Not in 1967, not in 1977 and definitely not in 1980...

That was not enough for Florence... even if she spent wisely. Sadly for her, the husband she married spent half of the money they got while her lawyers ran away with another chunk, which is why she filed charges against them later on.

She and all the rest of them got ripped off! I heard what one of Mr. Gordy's attorney's from the 1960s said about it while I was waiting for a meeting in NYC in 2012. They were ripped off. I hate to tell you this but almost anything you hear from a certain direction is false or 70% not true. That's all I can say.

[RanRan79]

$100,000 payment wasn't a lot of money.

Not in 1967, not in 1977 and definitely not in 1980...

That was not enough for Florence... even if she spent wisely. Sadly for her, the husband she married spent half of the money they got while her lawyers ran away with another chunk, which is why she filed charges against them later on.

Florence got the equivalent of more than 700 thousand dollars in today's money. A hundred grand was most certainly a lot of money in 1968 when you consider the costs of things at the time. Again, she surely wasn't given what was rightfully hers, but she didn't walk away from the Supremes with an amount to sneeze at. She walked away with the best money of the three girls.

I think the bulk of Flo's money troubles was her lawyer stealing it. Remember he intercepted the settlement. Florence said she watched the Motown rep hand the check over to the lawyer and that's the last she saw of it. It's also possible that he stole the 50 grand signing bonus from ABC too. I'm thinking that whatever money Flo and Tommy ran through was the money she already had before leaving the group. Remember she didn't find out she was broke until she went to the lawyer to ask for the settlement money. So for this I'm not sure we can blame Tommy anymore than we can blame Florence, who I'm sure wanted to continue living in the manner she had grown accustomed and might have spent money to do so.

Also remember when she entered into a solo career, she no longer had a record label like Motown footing the bill for everything. [[Of course we know Motown really wasn't footing the bill for anything, they were just paying for everything from whatever the Supremes earned.) I'm guessing ABC put the money into the recording sessions, but Florence had to do everything herself for the live act and that took money. Who knows what her next musical career would have been had she not gone broke and had to fight the lawyer and then enter into the fight with Motown.

[marv2]

the girls earned what their contracts stated they would earn. While one could argue that the contracts were overly lopsided in motown's favor, too bad. that's what the girls signed. They certainly were not in a position to negotiate more favorable terms when they started out. But after the hits started, they quickly were resigned. I'm not sure how long each contract was but they surely had at least 1 or more times of renewal during their peak years. At any point they could have negotiated better terms or had a lawyer review them. They did not. they were adults and they willingly signed legal documents that outline exactly what their payment would be for engagements and recordings.

The also received statements from motown on their monies. While motown was notorious for over inflating their press releases regarding million sellers and record sales, the girls could have simply looked at their statements and realized the truth. All three of them were extravagant shoppers and lived very VERY well. given the rates they were actually earning, they might have been wise to be a bit more conservative with their money.

You do know that Motown negotiated the Supremes contracts, for them................with themselves! It would be funny if it weren't so devious.

[BayouMotownMan]

She and all the rest of them got ripped off! I heard what one of Mr. Gordy's attorney's from the 1960s said about it while I was waiting for a meeting in NYC in 2012. They were ripped off. I hate to tell you this but almost anything you hear from a certain direction is false or 70% not true. That's all I can say.

You prove that in every post you make

[Roberta75]

You prove that in every post you make

LOLOLOLOLOLOL isnt that the truth.

[midnightman]

Sadly, correct. And fact is Florence's departing contract, said to be $100,000- , is equal to over $500,000 today. Separating Ballard's sad demise from her finances, she should have been able to ladder that windfall sufficiently to last her lifetime. Hard truth. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of her neighborhood classmates never had that kind of income and managed to make good lives for themselves. But self-responsibility and common sense do not create a villain-ess, do they?

I reckon if she wasn't married and had no children, maybe she could've hired someone who really looked after her. Then her career could've had a different story than it turned out.

[marv2]

Yeah you see the defenses he gets while Mary, Diana and Flo gets nothing but criticism. Instead of uplifting a group that broke racial and musical barriers, we always shame one of them. Berry Gordy did a NUMBER on all three of them and not to mention the other female Motown acts in his roster yet the women get shamed for the same things that are seen as "normal" when it's male acts like the Temptations, who arguably had FAR more drama than anything going on in the Supremes' backyard.

And in the end, you see how Flo, Mary and Diana left with when they left [[or had to leave, in Flo's case) Motown... a group helps make your label one of the most successful recording labels in history and that's how you repay them? Just $100,000-250,000?!

Has Mr. Gordy ever spoken of Florence Ballard publicly?

[Bluebrock]

Diana Ross was the act. If Diana was hot that night, the show was hot. If Diana was cold that night, the show was cold. Diana deserved her own private dressing room if that contributed towards her giving a better performance. After all, she was the act.

Spot on. I have said similar in the past. It greatly amused me to read on here not too long ago that an infamous Diana basher [[you know the one) claimed that Diana had the easiest job of the trio because all she had to do was sing. It cracked me up then, and it cracks me up now. You couldn't make this stuff up.

[RanRan79]

Spot on. I have said similar in the past. It greatly amused me to read on here not too long ago that an infamous Diana basher [[you know the one) claimed that Diana had the easiest job of the trio because all she had to do was sing. It cracked me up then, and it cracks me up now. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Mary and Florence have both been quoted as saying they didn't envy the position Diana was in where Gordy was concerned. He put a ton of pressure on her. I think Mary even referred to some of what went down as abusive. You can't be the lead singer of the second most famous group in the world and have it easy. Of course He Who Shall Not Be Named would say such a thing. He once tried to tell me that all Diana had to do was sing, while Flo and Mary had to learn choreography. I had to laugh at that. I mean, how difficult was it to learn to make a "stop" gesture with your hand? That silly rabbit...

As for that comment you responded to, lead singer or not, it does nothing for group unity when one girl gets something that the others don't get. Ross was great, but if she was so great and just couldn't take big bad Flo and big bad Mary hurting her wittle feelings, then Gordy should've pulled her out of the act to see if she could make it on her own. And she would've fallen flat on her face, as she almost did when she eventually did go solo after two and a half years of having her name above the Supremes. She was a big part of the Supremes, but she wasn't the only part.

[LoveSupreme]

Mary and Florence have both been quoted as saying they didn't envy the position Diana was in where Gordy was concerned. He put a ton of pressure on her. I think Mary even referred to some of what went down as abusive. You can't be the lead singer of the second most famous group in the world and have it easy. Of course He Who Shall Not Be Named would say such a thing. He once tried to tell me that all Diana had to do was sing, while Flo and Mary had to learn choreography. I had to laugh at that. I mean, how difficult was it to learn to make a "stop" gesture with your hand? That silly rabbit...

As for that comment you responded to, lead singer or not, it does nothing for group unity when one girl gets something that the others don't get. Ross was great, but if she was so great and just couldn't take big bad Flo and big bad Mary hurting her wittle feelings, then Gordy should've pulled her out of the act to see if she could make it on her own. And she would've fallen flat on her face, as she almost did when she eventually did go solo after two and a half years of having her name above the Supremes. She was a big part of the Supremes, but she wasn't the only part.

Very well put RanRan79. Spot on.

[thanxal]

I disagree, but only with this bit...

You can't be the lead singer of the second most famous group in the world and have it easy.

They were the MOST famous group in the world. Maybe you were thinking of that other group from the UK? Nope. They were bugs compared to our girls!

[P.S. LOL in case its not obvious].

[LoveSupreme]

There was a reason why Berry Gordy didn't pull Diana from the group as early as 1966 when tensions were rising. He knew if he did that he would alienate the fan base. The fans still saw them as a group, regardless of what was going on behind the scenes. It would not have been good a move publicity-wise at that point, he needed her in that group and she needed them.

It was all methodical. In 1966 the fans, television and concert booking agents wanted "The Supremes" - they wanted all three of them - not just Diana. Once Florence was out it was easier for him to re-name the group, give her top billing and slowly get the public, the concert promoters and television booking agents a chance to familiarize themselves with her name.

When the name of the group was changed you will notice on many of the promotional materials, album covers and concert programs Diana's name is in a much smaller font size than the group's name.

Her voice was always up front but the exposure of her name and her image as the focal point was done over time.

By 1969 it was basically a given that she was leaving, even before there was an official announcement. Motown started booking solo gigs even before she left. I believe two of them were her appearances on "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" and the Dinah Shore television special, "Like Hep".

[sup_fan]

$100,000 payment wasn't a lot of money.

Not in 1967, not in 1977 and definitely not in 1980...

That was not enough for Florence... even if she spent wisely. Sadly for her, the husband she married spent half of the money they got while her lawyers ran away with another chunk, which is why she filed charges against them later on.

sorry but you're incorrect in this statement. 100,000 in 1967 comes to approximately 750,000 in today's dollars, according to the top economic inflation adjustment calculators. remember - the houses they bought in 65 were about $30,000 today and were BEAUTIFUL homes. there's probably not a single property in the entire US today that could be purchased for $30k AND considered desirable and beautiful.

The truth is motown handled her departure harshly. no question there. but flo had absolutely 0 experience with identifying and hiring quality support staff - accountants, lawyers, managers, etc. and to be honest, outside of motown, there was probably no one in detroit at that time with any real background in entertainment law and contracts, financial negotiations, etc. Still Flo was an adult and made her decisions both in how she would handle situations while in the group and how she's handle them once out of the group.

i wonder if her family was also HUGELY responsible for her demise. their inability to provide any real guidance or sound advice surely played a major role in her decisions, both good and bad. there have been multiple sources that have states they elevated their own personal lots via her fame, that they always had demands for money which she always gave, that their advice consisted of 'don't you let The Man push you around' and not really balanced on how to handle the issues of fame and corporate politics.

Cindy herself has said that the disintegration of the original supremes really was hard for all involved - diana, mary AND berry. Mary too says that as the hits started, it was a wonderful dream for all four of them. but as problem arose and Flo started to crack, berry had to be the boss and not the friend. to simply let emotion guide his decisions would have meant the collapse of the sups, diana ross and most likely motown.

[midnightman]

It may have been a lot in 1967 but she was part of the Supremes, which is what I'm trying to say here. You mean 10 number one singles and a few number one albums not to mention the top 10s in between and earning Motown more money than other artists could ever imagine and she only walked away with that much. I'm just trying to say she got robbed of more money. That's all.

[sup_fan]

i don't think they were robbed - they were paid what their contracts stated. i do not believe motown absconded with money from them. I do agree that their contracts were too low. but between the facts that they were women, black and signed to an independent label, i doubt it would have been all that much different anywhere else. according to some sources, motown contracts were sub-par compared to the industry at that time. other sources say they were basically in line. i'm frankly not sure since i've never taken the time to research what other labels were offering black artists at the time

Mary also makes the point that success makes you overlook things. had DMF signed to another label, i think it's very safe to say the story of the Sups would be drastically different. the relationship berry had with all 3 girls and especially diana, the perfect alignment between he and hers vision for cross-over success, the combo of HDH and Sups, motowns visions [[which they also subsidized for the artists) of Artist Development, the motown concept of Quality Control. all of these are intangibles that were absolutely essential to the Supremes recording success.

so in light of all of these, it's hard to say if they were all that robbed. what price would you associate for having practically total exclusive access to the talents of HDH and receiving their undivided attention to craft not 1, not 2, not 10 but dozens of amazing songs for you?

what about the benefit of having Berry's personal guidance with your career management? most of the other artists actually site his preoccupation with the Sups as a detriment to their own careers. So the sups benefited from that.

the costs of artist development, designing their major and groundbreaking live appearances at the copa?

plus there's all of the costs they WERE billed for - gowns, stage makeup, recording sessions, photo shoots, etc.

and don't forget they spend their money lavishly

so at the end of the day, by mid 67 if all Flo had in her accounts was $700K, i'm not so sure that's really inaccurate or that she was robbed.

[thanxal]

It may have been a lot in 1967 but she was part of the Supremes, which is what I'm trying to say here. You mean 10 number one singles and a few number one albums not to mention the top 10s in between and earning Motown more money than other artists could ever imagine and she only walked away with that much. I'm just trying to say she got robbed of more money. That's all.

I agree completely with you. Even if we hold that amount constant in 2018 dollars [[$750k), is there any single artist or group member today that would consider $750k sufficient for string of 8 [[at the time Flo was kicked out) #1 hits? Definitely not.

Now whether or not the fault was "Motown being evil" vs. "the girls knew what they were doings as adults", I'm not sure I fully agree with either side. Its a little of column A and a little of column B. I guess these gray areas are what keeps this forum spinning. Can't be resolved and never will be. I guess its is a positive thing, though. We're almost 60 years on and some days I read this forum and think it happened yesterday. That's certainly one way to keep Motown alive.

[midnightman]

Nah I'm not saying Motown was evil, I just know that as a group member, she should've gotten more. She was worth more than $100,000. Which was really the point I was trying to get to but I said it all wrong and that's why you thought I was erring in fact. I do know $100,000 was a lot of money, just that she was a member of, as Ran said, the second biggest group of the entire '60s. That would be like if John Lennon had left the Beatles and got replaced and all he got out of it was $200,000 or whatever that means in British pounds, you see what I'm saying? Maybe "robbed" is the wrong word but you get what I'm trying to say, right?

[thanxal]

Nah I'm not saying Motown was evil, I just know that as a group member, she should've gotten more. She was worth more than $100,000. Which was really the point I was trying to get to but I said it all wrong and that's why you thought I was erring in fact. I do know $100,000 was a lot of money, just that she was a member of, as Ran said, the second biggest group of the entire '60s. That would be like if John Lennon had left the Beatles and got replaced and all he got out of it was $200,000 or whatever that means in British pounds, you see what I'm saying? Maybe "robbed" is the wrong word but you get what I'm trying to say, right?

Are you replying to me? I agree with you that $100k was patently unfair.
My characterization of the debate wasn't reflective of your post, just others I've read NUMEROUS times here.

[midnightman]

Are you replying to me? I agree with you that $100k was patently unfair.
My characterization of the debate wasn't reflective of your post, just others I've read NUMEROUS times here.

Nah lol
That was to sup_fan
But yeah I know you and I are in agreement.

[sup_fan]

Nah I'm not saying Motown was evil, I just know that as a group member, she should've gotten more. She was worth more than $100,000. Which was really the point I was trying to get to but I said it all wrong and that's why you thought I was erring in fact. I do know $100,000 was a lot of money, just that she was a member of, as Ran said, the second biggest group of the entire '60s. That would be like if John Lennon had left the Beatles and got replaced and all he got out of it was $200,000 or whatever that means in British pounds, you see what I'm saying? Maybe "robbed" is the wrong word but you get what I'm trying to say, right?

oh i completely agree that worth doesn't necessary equate to compensation. clearly motown knew she was worth more as Berry and everyone tried to deal with the situation for so long. The idea of firing a Supreme was unthinkable until it finally just became too risky to keep her. Gordy knew that the 3 girls were all talented entertainers and to get rid of one could really compromise the appeal and success of the overall

The group most certainly generated a huge amount of money for motown. much much more than what was paid or contractually owed to the girls. that's why they put up with Flo's fighting. the success of the company depended on the continued success of the supremes.

but when you're terminated, you're not going to be given extras, perks, bonuses. they're going to limit what they have to do to end the situation. they tried offering just $15K [[which is truly outlandish) and then Flo came back and negotiated a better settlement. i'm frankly a little surprised motown didn't try to enforce that she signed the first agreement but maybe their lawyers advised that would most likely not hold up in court if Flo sued.