Cindy, Marlene, Mildred and Barbara

**luke** · 07-05-2018, 03:18 PM

So the only reason Cindy was picked was that Diana put a wig and make up on her? I believe I read Marlene Barrow wasn’t interested , Diana didn’t like Barbara Randolph[[ for unknown reasons) and one of the Velvelettes[[Mildred?) was being considered I think and also said Diana didn’t like her. Any thoughts/Info? Was Marlene seriously considered? I know she performed a couple of times with them. There is a pic of the three of them in one of the books.

**midnightman** · 07-05-2018, 03:22 PM

IDK, Luke...

You have to ask Berry and the Motowners who are still around who were part of the changing of the guard WHY Cindy was ultimately picked. Marlene was an Andante and felt comfortable there, she wasn't gonna just up and leave her sisters like that.

I do remember Marlene was gonna accept a gig at the Copa because of issues with Flo, and the Copa staff said "bring back Flo or you won't get paid" so Flo was told to get to NY in time to rehearse and perform on the show. So Marlene was never asked again. And it's not like she would've wanted to go anyway, like it's said.

First I heard of a Velvelette being recommended but I don't know how true it is. I think Barbara was gonna replace DIANA, not FLO. Remember, the idea for a DR solo career was starting to be put in motion in 1966.

**luke** · 07-05-2018, 03:50 PM

Marlene did perform with Mary and Diana in Boston I believe. I loved Cindy. Just curious. I think Mildred or Norma talk about it in Women of Motown book.

**midnightman** · 07-05-2018, 04:33 PM

Hmm interesting about the Boston date...

**sup_fan** · 07-05-2018, 04:38 PM

i'd assume they had a bit more interaction with Cindy besides plopping a wig on her head 1 time lol. although your point is great - never really thought of it that way.

in both the pre-hit days and the early years post WDOLG, the Supremes were often featured in bigger shows that included other popular acts. it wasn't until post Copa and into 66 that the girls really were their own touring machine. But even Cindy's first show at the Hollywood Bowl was a shared set with Brenda Holloway and other non-motown artists.

So they'd definitely have been crossing paths. and as would be natural the acts would be backstage and hanging out inbetween shows and while other acts were on stage. I'm guessing that as the Motown execs, D and M started the discussions of replacing Flo, they started brainstorming potential replacements. Some were internal and probably some not. But given the group's position in the entertainment world, they had to pick a seasoned candidate. Probably D or M suggested Cindy cuz they'd met multiple times on the road, she was nice and friendly, sort of looked like Flo, was a seasoned performer and a soprano.

**theboyfromxtown** · 07-05-2018, 05:10 PM

It was Velvelette Norma who auditioned for the Supremes. They needed a high voice.

Norma told me about it. Let's just say that she picked up the vibes pretty quickly that she wasn't gonna be the one! lol

**sup_fan** · 07-05-2018, 06:21 PM

haha - guess there was tension between her and diana huh

**bradsupremes** · 07-05-2018, 07:21 PM

Cindy was picked initially for her appearance. She resembled Florence, she was built like Florence - for Motown it made sense to pick her for an easy transition. According to Sarah Dash, she was told Motown thought her voice was Cindy's and that when they did auditioned Cindy they were disappointed because it was the strong first soprano they thought they heard. It was Sarah's voice, not Cindy's. I think Cindy's sweet and easy to get along with personality along with her dedicated work ethic helped to seal the deal. If they had someone who was a team player, they got it and they found it in Cindy.

**luke** · 07-05-2018, 07:34 PM

One of the Motown books reported that Cindy sang You keep Me Hangin on acapella and Berry loved her voice.

**rod_rick** · 07-05-2018, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

Cindy was picked initially for her appearance. She resembled Florence, she was built like Florence - for Motown it made sense to pick her for an easy transition. According to Sarah Dash, she was told Motown thought her voice was Cindy's and that when they did auditioned Cindy they were disappointed because it was the strong first soprano they thought they heard. It was Sarah's voice, not Cindy's. I think Cindy's sweet and easy to get along with personality along with her dedicated work ethic helped to seal the deal. If they had someone who was a team player, they got it and they found it in Cindy.

What's funny to me is that Cindy was a good replacement at the time because Florence soprano pretty much lost that edge by the time Cindy joined. If you listen to the Copa 1967 and Cindy gig from the Hollywood Bowl, there's not too much of a vocal difference in the harmony imo. I also think Mary did her soft vocals during rehearsal sound check that's why she was much louder than Cindy because during television shows and on he TCB recording Cindy in right in the mix with Mary. Also I couldn't imagine a short Mildred or Sarah Dash as Supremes. Cindy was the right choice. Just my thoughts.

**BigAl** · 07-05-2018, 08:45 PM

By the time Florence was dismissed, I believe vocal ability was one of the least of the criteria for selecting a replacement. By that time, Diane was being pushed way out front and given top billing, reducing Mary and whoever ultimately got the soprano spot to little more than glamorous backup singers. Flo’s ouster, sad as it was, probably made this transition a lot easier for everyone else.

For all her talent, Norma Barbee was much too short to pull off the look required; Marlene Barrow had no particular interest; Diane didn’t want Barbara Randolph [[and she was a mezzo anyway), and I don’t think anyone else under contract to Hitsville was ever considered. Cindy knew Diane and Mary already, had extensive experience singing backup in a girl group, and could hold her own vocally even if she was no powerhouse like Florence. I liked her voice, but, to my ears, it was pretty generic, which was okay by that time because she and Mary were miked down so far that you could barely hear them [[or at least that was the case the three times I saw them in 1968). It just happened that she and Flo were about the same height and build, and it was reported that they even wore the same dress and shoe size. She evidently didn’t mind being groomed for glamor, if the story of her visit to the Supremes’ dressing quarters when the Bluebelles were on the same show is accurate. She permitted Diane and Mary [[maybe even Florence as well) to doll her up that time [[much to Nona’s chagrin) and apparently was more than comfortable with the makeover. I’m betting this display of cooperativeness probably went farther than anything else in getting her the job offer.

**midnightman** · 07-05-2018, 10:07 PM

^ Didn't Nona beat her up for even going into "enemy's territory"? Lol

**luke** · 07-05-2018, 10:19 PM

Lol. I think she at least threw her “white girl wig” down the hall!

**CoolKatz** · 07-06-2018, 06:56 AM

I remember reading about the Norma Barbee audition and thinking how odd? She knowingly was walking into a lions den. IMO it would be like Gladys Horton wanting an audition for the spot. You already don't have a great history so what good could you expect?

As far as vocal parts were concerned at this point it didn't matter because session singers were on most the records. The look was the most important issue. They needed someone who could be comfortable with the dramatic and sometimes extreme look they were doing in the late 60's.

**lucky2012** · 07-06-2018, 08:48 AM

So cool. [[Or in mid-60's L.A. top forty radio lingo: Boss!) Never heard this concert before. Some notes:

Full orchestra backing. The hits sound as grand as they should, in the Hollywood Bowl and not in a nightclub.
Wish some of the songs weren't rushed in a supper-club medley. Full, respectful performances of all the major hits [[so many!) would have been perfect.This was a concert for and benefitting the young people. Then again, there was probably a Hollywood presence in the audience, hence More and Somewhere.

I was too young to go. For me, even Sam Cooke was an Oldie. The Beatles songs were appropriate. Love is Here was a great performance, all the girls. Diana in fine voice. Beautiful harmonies. Cindy did very well. You Keep Me Hangin' On was a great opening song. You Can't Hurry Love and The Happening a bit rushed [[but they are faster, energetic songs to begin with).

I saw Diana Ross with her family at the Bowl recently [[not this year). I suppose she would be caught up in the moment at each concert, but I wonder if she was remembering this concert, almost 40 years ago.

**reese** · 07-06-2018, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by theboyfromxtown

It was Velvelette Norma who auditioned for the Supremes. They needed a high voice.

Norma told me about it. Let's just say that she picked up the vibes pretty quickly that she wasn't gonna be the one! lol

In the book THE WOMEN OF MOTOWN, Norma says she went to interview for Flo's position just like one would do for any other job. But she knew she wouldn't get it because she and Diana didn't get along. She also said the salary they were offering was low and wouldn't even pay for her baby sitter.

**captainjames** · 07-22-2018, 12:32 AM

I believe the women mentioned were interviewed and possibly others who are not mentioned. I can't even imagine anyone else in Flo's position besides Cindy.

**milven** · 07-22-2018, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by reese

In the book THE WOMEN OF MOTOWN, Norma says she went to interview for Flo's position just like one would do for any other job. But she knew she wouldn't get it because she and Diana didn't get along. She also said the salary they were offering was low and wouldn't even pay for her baby sitter.

Well that is sad. When they finally hired CIndy, did they also offer her a salary that would not even pay for a babysitter?

If I am remembering correctly, in an interview in 2000, Mary said that the Supremes were payed equally, and that she expected her and Cindy to be paid equally during the Return to Love Tour. [[I think Mary was negiogiating for Cindy)

I was reluctant to type this because just mentioning RTL brings up so much negativity.

Did Cindy also get equal pay as Mary Flo and Diana did, or was her pay less than Mary and Diana?

**BigAl** · 07-22-2018, 02:15 PM

It was my understanding that once Florence was canned and Diane given top billing, salaries were then adjusted.

I imagine Cindy probably earned less than Mary, who in turn earned less than Diane, but I have no figures on which to base this particular assumption.

**jim aka jtigre99** · 07-22-2018, 02:17 PM

I never really knew of Flo in the Supremes until You Tube, etc. Mary & Cindy were always there when I became a fan so I can't really judge on this transition. It seems that of all of the replacements that Cindy's transition was the smoothest, she certainly had the look and style, not looking uncomfortable onstage with so much on[[wigs, makeup, lashes,heavy gowns) and she managed a very nice blend visually and musically with Mary. Once the group became Diana Ross & the Supremes, Motown had such a huge focus on Diana Ross that it became more about promoting her than the group. From what I saw on You Tube there seemed to be more interplay as a group earlier. Still, once Jean Terrell, and later Scherrie Payne, joined Cindy was more than up to it vocally and visually when the group became a group again. I read that Jean Terrell was salaried and Mary wrote that Lynda was asking for a full third financial share of the group. She stated that Scherrie & Susaye were signed to Motown but she hired them through Supremes, inc.[[basically Mary) so I am not sure if Cindy was also hired with the same group financial share that Diana, Mary & Flo had or if she was given a contract and salary similar to Jean Terrell. Regardless, Cindy was more than excellent as a member of the Supremes especially when she was replacing a fan favorite only to become one herself almost effortlessly. Motown made the right choice with Cindy.

**luke** · 07-22-2018, 05:12 PM

Didn’t Mary say when Diana left that they all got $100,000 each?

**midnightman** · 07-22-2018, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Didn’t Mary say when Diana left that they all got $100,000 each?

I read the question wrong but yeah I think they return to equal pay because Jean wasn't giving top billing over them.

**midnightman** · 07-22-2018, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99

I never really knew of Flo in the Supremes until You Tube, etc. Mary & Cindy were always there when I became a fan so I can't really judge on this transition. It seems that of all of the replacements that Cindy's transition was the smoothest, she certainly had the look and style, not looking uncomfortable onstage with so much on[[wigs, makeup, lashes,heavy gowns) and she managed a very nice blend visually and musically with Mary. Once the group became Diana Ross & the Supremes, Motown had such a huge focus on Diana Ross that it became more about promoting her than the group. From what I saw on You Tube there seemed to be more interplay as a group earlier. Still, once Jean Terrell, and later Scherrie Payne, joined Cindy was more than up to it vocally and visually when the group became a group again. I read that Jean Terrell was salaried and Mary wrote that Lynda was asking for a full third financial share of the group. She stated that Scherrie & Susaye were signed to Motown but she hired them through Supremes, inc.[[basically Mary) so I am not sure if Cindy was also hired with the same group financial share that Diana, Mary & Flo had or if she was given a contract and salary similar to Jean Terrell. Regardless, Cindy was more than excellent as a member of the Supremes especially when she was replacing a fan favorite only to become one herself almost effortlessly. Motown made the right choice with Cindy.

It was all in the planning. Motown basically started to separate Diana from the group as early as 1966. But it became more obvious once Flo was finally out.

**luke** · 07-22-2018, 07:28 PM

No, I meant Mary, Cindy and Diana each got $100,000 when Diana left from the Supremes account. That’s all there was!

**midnightman** · 07-22-2018, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by luke

No, I meant Mary, Cindy and Diana each got $100,000 when Diana left from the Supremes account. That’s all there was!

Oh.

That might be. But from what I read, DR had only $250,000 in her name when she left Motown. Is that what Mary's talking about?

**luke** · 07-22-2018, 08:47 PM

No. Diana added that Info subsequently. They each were given 100,000 in 1970 and I guess Diana had stashed away another 150, 000 from before.

**midnightman** · 07-22-2018, 11:02 PM

Oh OK, I understand what you're saying now...

**luke** · 07-22-2018, 11:22 PM

Cindy has said she made a lot money but lost it due to bad business/investments/ advice or the related. Later she stated that Motown had ripped her off.

**midnightman** · 07-23-2018, 01:14 AM

Hmm... I mean I'm sure Motown probably did but maybe she should've saved SOME of that money and build up on it.

**milven** · 07-23-2018, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by midnightman

Hmm... I mean I'm sure Motown probably did but maybe she should've saved SOME of that money and build up on it.

I saw this happen first hand where artists reach fame but dont plan for future. As a teenager, there was a guy working at a fruitstand down the block from where I worked. He went on to eventually have two giant hit records on the charts He came back in a brand new [[litterally) pink Cadillac. But there were no more hits , and eventually, I guess, no more money because he was back working at that fruitstand.

So many artists think that the great money is going to last forevcer.

I just checked Wikopedia and this man is still alive and is 86. And it says that he eventually recorded for Motown, which I never knew.

Some of these artists are out there in their eighties performing in oldies shows and on cruises, more out of neccessity than for pleasure.

I think it is sad.

**sup_fan** · 07-23-2018, 11:18 AM

Mary and Diana had the same royalty rate throughout Diana's tenure with the group. While Flo was a member, she had the same rate too.

When Cindy joined, she was salaried. not sure how long that status remained but guessing 12 or 18 months. then she would have gone onto a royalty rate. I've not seen her contract nor have i heard what her rate was. I would guess that she then matched Diana's and Mary's. Assuming she joined the group in July 67 that would put her at earning royalties start with releases Jan 69. So for hits like Love Child, In and Out, I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, TCB she would have been salaried. with hits like Shame, Someday, she would have received royalties

it's been mentioned in many sources that part of Diana's frustration with the DRATS situation was that she was taking on the majority of the burden and work but not earning any additional money for recordings, appearances or shows. Seems like at least 2/3 [[if not more) of the recorded content during this time did NOT include M or C so she was working much more heavily in the studio.

Randy also pointed out in his latest Diana book a sad fact. Royalties are not the same, legally, as a paid salary. the federal withholdings are different. that's why artists so often get into tax trouble when they don't properly save some money for taxes. The good news was that all of the girls seemed to have avoided IRS issues as Motown always made sure taxes were paid. But no Social Security withholdings were made either. Therefore none of the women have much coming to them from SS.

**luke** · 07-23-2018, 02:06 PM

I believe Cindy accepted motowns offer of $250,000 in exchange for her royalties when she left. She did try to build on her money thru investments. So sad per Social Security. There oughta be a law!

**sup_fan** · 07-23-2018, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by luke

I believe Cindy accepted motowns offer of $250,000 in exchange for her royalties when she left. She did try to build on her money thru investments. So sad per Social Security. There oughta be a law!

there is a law - but it only pertains to paid salary. while i'm not an accountant, other forms of personal income are not subject to SS withholdings. Of course that doesn't mean a person can't do after-tax retirement savings. I'm guessing there weren't as many financial tools available in the 60s as there are today. 401k's here in the US didn't come into being until the late 70s. most other companies offered just basic pension plans but we all know that those have been subject to de-funding and all sorts of issues.

motown probably should have/could have done more to educate the artists and employees on personal finances. but then again that's not there job just as it isn't the responsibility of my current employer to do this for me either. at the end of the day, it was the responsibility of the girls to think ahead which it appears none of them really did. While they certainly weren't the most lavish of stars, they did live high on the hog and probably should have paid more attention to their statements and royalty checks from motown

**luke** · 07-23-2018, 02:52 PM

Mary sure thought ahead by not letting go of her royalties!!

**sup_fan** · 07-23-2018, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Mary sure thought ahead by not letting go of her royalties!!

exactly right! although for Cindy, i wonder if the decision was really all that detrimental.

i'm assuming she did not take over the royalties from the Flo era songs. and if my guess about her being 18 months on salary is right, then she only earned royalties on released starting in 1969 through her departure in 76. Sure Someday was a huge hit and she'd continue to earn those. but the Jean-era songs really weren't selling all that much in terms of on-going royalties. and certainly none of the Scherrie songs were either.

so from her perspective, being offered $250K up front might have been a good deal. but unfortunately it seems she lost most of it later

when she left in 72, i'm assuming her release ended her royalties?

**luke** · 07-23-2018, 07:01 PM

I’m also assuming Cindy and others sadly have not qualified for Medicare. I guess they have needed to receive Medicaid.

**midnightman** · 07-23-2018, 10:40 PM

Interesting Cindy was asking for $250k because that's how much in the bank Diana had when she left Motown the first time in 1980. Diana and Mary both had to work twice as hard to make sure they never went broke. I wonder where Cindy lives now. I know she has been sick and ill for some time. I hope it's not a nursing home because if so I wonder how her finances are being paid. Hopefully her children are helping her.

**luke** · 07-23-2018, 10:57 PM

I think she is still at home in LA with a caretaker.

**milven** · 07-24-2018, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by luke

I’m also assuming Cindy and others sadly have not qualified for Medicare. I guess they have needed to receive Medicaid.

People over 65 get Medicare, and she qualified for a full social security check at 66. The size of the check depends on how much of her income was reported to government. Medicaid is also availbable to her if she has no other financial sources to pay for her health care.

**franjoy56** · 07-25-2018, 10:29 AM

To state that gladys horton become a supreme is an insult gladys was a lead singer in her own right had just left the marvelettes and would never be caught singing background for diana ross

**RanRan79** · 07-26-2018, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by milven

Some of these artists are out there in their eighties performing in oldies shows and on cruises, more out of neccessity than for pleasure.

I think it's often a mixture of both. I think when you see folks in their 70s and 80s working at grocery stores or fast food it's usually out of necessity, though I have known some who take those jobs post retirement because they want something to do everyday. On the other hand, people who have been bitten by the performance bug often find it very difficult to give up. Me and someone in the forum once had a back and forth about Flo Ballard and whether she truly wanted to make a comeback in the 70s. I asserted that it stood to reason this would be a desire of hers because often when artists are performers at heart, the idea of giving it up is unthinkable and when it is taken away or given up on for any length of time, it's often a miserable mental place to be in and so they crave the chance to get back out there. [[There's also Flo's own words that she desired to get back in the business, and I see no reason to call her a liar.)

Anyway, even people working "average" jobs often live above their means and don't budget or take into account the future. With a job in entertainment, where the public is often judging you based on how well you're living, the temptation to go above and beyond to prove anything to anyone becomes so great that the money troubles soon follow. But the question to ask of the performers of the past is are they currently still dealing with the after effects of overspending and mismanagement from the 60s and 70s? I imagine some of the worse case scenarios probably are...especially if the IRS took a long time to catch up with them. But what of the others? I think the love of performing is something many of them can't rid themselves of until they close their eyes for the last time, or become debilitated somehow. I hesitate to call performing a drug, because it suggests a negative and I am in no way of the opinion that it's a negative thing at all. But for lack of a better way of putting it, I would say that performing has the effect of a drug. Once it takes hold, there's really no way to get rid of it. [[Which actually makes it "worst" than a drug, since there are treatment options for that, but none for aging performers.)