If Florence had stayed...

[midnightman]

I'm sure to this day Diana thanks the Supremes for helping her be who she became. In fact, I think she HAS said that dozens of times. It's like when Tina Turner acknowledges Ike Turner's influence, yet people trash her because she became more successful than him after she left him following their final violent fight. Or when MJ always said if it wasn't for his brothers and Joe, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did later on. People who really spite someone who became that iconic think they would just simply forget where they came from. No they didn't. Far from it.

[captainjames]

Thank you MotownManiac. I agree 💯💯

Ditto
I am glad someone finally said it. The "People" crap was just a lie.

[blackguy69]

Actually it sounds to me that some people on here are try hard to prove that Diana didn’t hog the spotlight pointing out that Flo and Mary[[taking over the last verse from Diana)sang people in late 66. Now I’m not saying that Diana did but out of the songs that the group sang and Diana lead on all of them and the one that she didn’t, the other 2 had to share, it doesn’t exactly show Diana willing to give up the spotlight.

[arr&bee]

Uhh oh,hide all breakables,get those small kids and pets outta here..there's an earthquake comin!!

[khansperac]

Actually it sounds to me that some people on here are try hard to prove that Diana didn’t hog the spotlight pointing out that Flo and Mary[[taking over the last verse from Diana)sang people in late 66. Now I’m not saying that Diana did but out of the songs that the group sang and Diana lead on all of them and the one that she didn’t, the other 2 had to share, it doesn’t exactly show Diana willing to give up the spotlight.

It sounds to me that some members are simply pointing out the lie. Its not hard to prove at all once you see the video- the song was still in the act, and with Mary singing lead.

[blackguy69]

I’ve seen it. My impression was it switched up. Sometimes it was Diana, sometimes it was Mary. One thing is for sure, by the Copa show in 67 it wasn’t in the act

[midnightman]

Actually it sounds to me that some people on here are try hard to prove that Diana didn’t hog the spotlight pointing out that Flo and Mary[[taking over the last verse from Diana)sang people in late 66. Now I’m not saying that Diana did but out of the songs that the group sang and Diana lead on all of them and the one that she didn’t, the other 2 had to share, it doesn’t exactly show Diana willing to give up the spotlight.

Didn't Mary have another solo in the song? No one's arguing that Diana was a hogger but I don't think at that point she had control over who sang what. Ask Berry Gordy and the HDH team [[and those who worked with the Supremes who are still among the living) why Mary and Flo didn't have more leads in the studio and on stage. Shouldn't be hard to do, right? It's really not Diana's to answer. I mean, yeah, Diana wasn't gonna give up the spotlight, it was something she had wanted from the age of 12 so of course. In fact, I think some here knew that Diana was more determined. We all can agree with that, right?

Still don't think Flo and Mary were that confident vocally and like I said, Flo never wanted to be a lead singer anyway, she just wanted to be in the Supremes forever no matter what it took and it just wasn't gonna work with because their ambitions were not the same: Mary and Flo probably want things to remain the same [[and FLO more so than Mary because Mary was going along with the Motown machine more), but Diana had visions that Flo simply didn't share. We're just dealing with facts.

So, to clarify, yeah, we know where Diana was at but it almost came at a price for her as much as it came a price for Flo hoping the group unity would always be there. As her cousin on Unsung said, "things had changed and she hadn't changed".

[blackguy69]

You’re thinking of enjoy yourself from the first Copa show.

[rod_rick]

Ditto
I am glad someone finally said it. The "People" crap was just a lie.

Yep a lie to sell books. Remember Mary was told they needed more dirt. I believe it was easier to say that People was snatched from Flo than to tell the Berry was Rhonda's dad.

As far as singing lead for Flo and Mary had they gotten the training and developed as Diana they would had made wonderful lead vocalist. Remember Martha Reeves was older and singing in clubs. HDH took Diana out of the vocal rafters and developed what we now know as her signature sound and style. To Mary's credit she did very well on her early leads i.e. Pretty Baby, Baby Don't Go, and The Tears. Someone thought thought he had something way back then.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Diana was a 'hogger'? lol..what did that make Gladys Knight, Levi Stubbs, Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson etc? I rreally think there are some people here who were bullied and think of themselves as Flo or Mary.. how about thinking how difficult it was to become Diana Ross, a black female [[double whammy) in the 1960's, rising to such incredible heights in the hateful racist 1960's, and dragging the rest of Motown along with her..get over yourselves, people...lol

[marv2]

Actually it sounds to me that some people on here are try hard to prove that Diana didn’t hog the spotlight pointing out that Flo and Mary[[taking over the last verse from Diana)sang people in late 66. Now I’m not saying that Diana did but out of the songs that the group sang and Diana lead on all of them and the one that she didn’t, the other 2 had to share, it doesn’t exactly show Diana willing to give up the spotlight.

It is a well known fact.....she did not like to share!

[Jimi LaLumia]

and Gladys, Levi, Martha, Smokey etc? were they 'hoggers'?..for the crime of being what's called a 'lead singer'?...lol..

[arr&bee]

In the case of-gladys-smokey-martha.it was already established,but with the supremes in the beginning they thought of themselves as co-leads...at least two of em did,hehe!

[vgalindo]

and Gladys, Levi, Martha, Smokey etc? were they 'hoggers'?..for the crime of being what's called a 'lead singer'?...lol..

Thank you Jimi LaLumia. Others get a pass or an excuse for why they sang all the leads! But oh no not Diana Ross she didn't like to share. But Gladys and Martha loved to share leads!!! LOL

[Jimi LaLumia]

then why, in the beginning, on the all flops "Meet The Supremes' album was Ross already the dominant voice, the person on the mic talking/hosting at all those early no hits Supremes shows when no one knew how things would turn out for the girls? why did Flo and Mary allow that when there was no success and they allowed everything to rest on the shoulders of DR with no objections, same as the WDOLG album before they knew what was going to happen? give it a rest kids..

[blackguy69]

Marv you should not comment. But to answer the question at hand that has been asked too many times to count, as arr&bee has stated, the Supremes was set up as a group not a lead and backups. And since none of us were there,how do we know Flo or Mary didn’t protest to sing more leads. If they were rotating leads prior to them getting there and all three had recorded leads early on, do you think they would just be quiet.

[marv2]

In the case of-gladys-smokey-martha.it was already established,but with the supremes in the beginning they thought of themselves as co-leads...at least two of em did,hehe!

BANG! You get it!

[marv2]

Marv you should not comment. But to answer the question at hand that has been asked too many times to count, as arr&bee has stated, the Supremes was set up as a group not a lead and backups. And since none of us were there,how do we know Flo or Mary didn’t protest to sing more leads. If they were rotating leads prior to them getting there and all three had recorded leads early on, do you think they would just be quiet.

I should not comment? I've been a member of this forum probably longer than anyone else on this thread. I have also contributed to this forum in more ways than I can count. I'll comment if I want to!

[marv2]

Marv you should not comment. But to answer the question at hand that has been asked too many times to count, as arr&bee has stated, the Supremes was set up as a group not a lead and backups. And since none of us were there,how do we know Flo or Mary didn’t protest to sing more leads. If they were rotating leads prior to them getting there and all three had recorded leads early on, do you think they would just be quiet.

They did protest. They first tried to discuss it with Diane and then later on Mary would "discuss it" with Mr. Gordy. They did not want to mess up any "formula", but they did want to be able to sing lead on some of the album tracks and more in concert.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I'm sure that if Mary [[or Flo) had protested to sing more leads, we would have read about it in that BOOK!..you know, the 'exile' book...

[blackguy69]

Ok we’ve gotten way off topic and it’s starting to be the same bull we argue about constantly. And since none of us was there to confirm or deny the events at hand. All we have is our opinions.

[arr&bee]

Let me step in if i may,look berry gordy should get all the credit[or the blame if you wish]for the supremes success,if he had not heard something in the[nasally sound]of the skinny one with the big eyes we would'nt be here discussing it,or fighting over it or whatever it is that happens here,i'm out!!

[vgalindo]

BANG! You get it!

What does that have to do with it? Same old excuses. If you look at it that way then I guess you can say Gladys-Smokey-Martha were more selfish than Diana if they were like from the very beginning. At least Diana shared in the beginning. Why didn't Martha, Smokey, and Gladys share in the beginning? Because of their eggos and they were the stars! Diana Ross isn't the only superstar who didn't want the spotlight!

[captainjames]

What does that have to do with it? Same old excuses. If you look at it that way then I guess you can say Gladys-Smokey-Martha were more selfish than Diana if they were like from the very beginning. At least Diana shared in the beginning. Why didn't Martha, Smokey, and Gladys share in the beginning? Because of their eggos and they were the stars! Diana Ross isn't the only superstar who didn't want the spotlight!

Wasn't the Pips just the Pips before they were Gladys Knight and The Pips and the same for the Miracles ?

[vgalindo]

Wasn't the Pips just the Pips before they were Gladys Knight and The Pips and the same for the Miracles ?

Yes they were. Also Gladys and Smokey both left their groups and didn't get any flack for it. SMDH

[blackguy69]

If the supremes were marketed like the vandellas or the miracles or the four tops or Gladys and the pips then the argument would change. But since the girls were marketed as individuals, it leads us to the discussion at hand.

[blackguy69]

But it was always Gladys and the pips from day one. even when she left and came back it went right back to Gladys and the pips. and it

[midnightman]

Wasn't the Pips just the Pips before they were Gladys Knight and The Pips and the same for the Miracles ?

They were from 1952 until 1961. Like Berry did for the Supremes, Bobby Robinson suggested the Pips add Gladys' name on top of theirs. When Gladys left following her marriage to Jimmy Newman, the other Pips toured on their own as just the Pips until Gladys reunited with them in 1964.

The Miracles actually had their moniker changed first. They were still "The Miracles" when they began to hit the pop mainstream with the Going to a Go-Go album and released the singles but the album cover listed them as Smokey Robinson and The Miracles.

A good two years before Motown decided to add Diana's name in front of the Supremes [[it was first as The Supremes WITH Diana Ross before it switched to Diana Ross & The Supremes the night Flo stuck her stomach out while drunk during one of the performances following her birthday).

Originally the Vandellas were gonna be just that until Berry or someone suggested Martha's first name should be up there. I also think Phil Spector added Ronnie Spector's first name in front of the Ronettes after Be My Baby became popular.

[midnightman]

But it was always Gladys and the pips from day one. even when she left and came back it went right back to Gladys and the pips. and it

No it wasn't.

When the Pips made their recording debut on Brunswick in 1957, they went as simply The Pips. Gladys' name was NOT put in front:



This came out before anyone knew what a Primette or Supreme or Temptation or Miracle [[who were now going as that in the same year the Pips' debut record came out) was.

Also, the big scandal way before the Supremes were the Famous Flames. Initially when they formed, James Brown's name wasn't put in front of their name. It was first the Flames, then Little Richard's manager suggested they add "Famous" there to promote themselves better. After "Please Please Please" came out on Federal Records in 1956, James hired Ben Bart, who suggested the group become JAMES BROWN with the Famous Flames, that led to each and every member including Bobby Byrd walking out and leaving the group in protest. And James later had it that every record, including those he recorded solo or with his band [[starting roughly around 1959 or 1960) to be categorized as a James Brown and the Famous Flames recording even without the actual vocalists on it. That led many to think The Famous Flames was the name of his band [[which was easy to miscategorize because JB treated them like they were working FOR him rather than WITH him).

It took MANY years to be corrected and the 2012 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame committee finally fixed this glaring mistake. Like James blew up huge, but he was simply a lead singer of a group when songs like Please, Please, Please, Try Me, I'll Go Crazy and Oh Baby Don't You Weep were hits.

You can say Ike Turner did the reverse with Tina Turner, only adding his name because he wanted to assert control despite the fact it was Tina, and not Ike, that was singing lead on virtually every I&TT song that came out in their 16-year career.

But somehow what happened with the Supremes and Motown later on is supposed to be a unique thing. It's only unique because the group members whose name wasn't "Diana" had something to say about it. Berry felt the group's image couldn't last as a trio because one of the original members' hearts was not in it anymore after realizing that Motown was no longer the "family-oriented" company it was when they joined and had become a business that pretty much owned each and every act and put them under a salary, which was less than what every other act was getting paid.

I mean if we're gonna keep it real, let's get every fact right.

[midnightman]

Yes they were. Also Gladys and Smokey both left their groups and didn't get any flack for it. SMDH

With Gladys, it was understandable because she had stayed with them for nearly 40 years [[though I did read that William Guest felt some type of way about it).

But Smokey's tenure in the Miracles was as long as Diana's in the Supremes so yeah, makes you wonder. If Smoke had had his way, he'd left by the time 1970 hit had Tears of a Clown not been popular. I'm sure Pete, Ronnie and Bill felt some type of way about it but they didn't air their dirty laundry in the street...

[midnightman]

What does that have to do with it? Same old excuses. If you look at it that way then I guess you can say Gladys-Smokey-Martha were more selfish than Diana if they were like from the very beginning. At least Diana shared in the beginning. Why didn't Martha, Smokey, and Gladys share in the beginning? Because of their eggos and they were the stars! Diana Ross isn't the only superstar who didn't want the spotlight!

James Brown didn't think of the Famous Flames as anything but in his way of superstardom. No one talks of how much he hogged the spotlight. At one point, he got into a beef with Joe Tex over being "Soul Brother No. 1", had an intense rivalry with Wilson Pickett, who also rubbed it in James' face that he had the better vocals, and tried to bully Solomon Burke into giving him his trademark crown and cape and call him "the true king of soul". Solomon wouldn't do any of that but agreed to be in the show and got paid by James.

We know how Aretha Franklin got jealous of every female artist that started to get a little fame, from Gladys to Patti to Natalie to Whitney to...DIANA lol

One woman from the most successful girl group of all time decides she wants the spotlight and she's the devil...

Also someone said "Berry deserves the credit for the Supremes". Uh DUH, he deserves credit for each and every single one who hit it big in the early Motown years. That's like mentioning that Brian Epstein made the Beatles who they were or Allen Klein made the Rolling Stones. Or Kenny Gamble & Leon Huff made stars out of the O'Jays, Billy Paul and the Three Degrees. Or Joe Jackson making the Jackson 5.

That's like saying when an apple falls from a tree and hits you in the head, you know it's gonna hurt you.

[blackguy69]

In the miracles case even before the name change was made they were still refereed Smokey Robinson and the Miracles as far back as 63

[midnightman]

I'm sure that if Mary [[or Flo) had protested to sing more leads, we would have read about it in that BOOK!..you know, the 'exile' book...

Don't seem like they did much protesting about songs. Think Flo's thing was she wanted a break. Unsung mentioned how she felt overworked by 1966 and was tired of having to perform. The Supremes protesting about leads didn't really happen until after both Florence and Diana were gone... but I ain't one to gossip so you ain't heard that from me.

[midnightman]

In the miracles case even before the name change was made they were still refereed Smokey Robinson and the Miracles as far back as 63

So if that is true, then why was no one making a fuss about that? Back as far as 1963, huh?

[blackguy69]

that question should be asked to the other Supreme fans. You can repeat over and over how come such and such group do this but so and so gets flack. I really don’t know, repeating it over and over again isn’t going to change anyone’s mind. It’s just one of those y.

[blackguy69]

My personal opinion is it’s all about the marketing.

[captainjames]

The Miracles, The Pips, and The Supremes is what I remember. A good marketing tool is to bring the lead singer's name out front. I get that all too well. I have often wonder what would have happen if Diana left in 65-67 and what would have become of the Super Dooper Supremes.

Also when Barbara Martin was interviewed for the box set why couldn't Barbara Martin be interviewed by the person doing the interview ? Why did Mary do the interview for her and then bring back what she said ? All so very odd and mysterious to me.

At any rate it is what it is.......................Draw your own conclusions..........

[midnightman]

^ Wait Mary interviewed her? WHAT?

[captainjames]

^ Wait Mary interviewed her? WHAT?

Yes she did and its all so very one sided.

[blackguy69]

You’re reading too deep into it

[TheMotownManiac]

The Supremes Seemed to have 3 leads when they came to Motown, but Berry was only interested in Diana and told them so. They could have left, quit or refused but they didn’t. They agreed, became the biggest American group and crabbed about it. I’m not blaming anyone, we all make our choices, but it’s ignorant to blame Diana for Berry’s decision. How can she be hogging what was given to her? Did she want to share? Who knows. Did it matter if she did? Would Berry give leads away in his #1 group if he didn’t want to? It’s all so sophomoric to blame Diana for taking the leads given - that simply was the program. Period. And it worked beyond anyone’s wildest dream and created history.

[TheMotownManiac]

I’ve seen it. My impression was it switched up. Sometimes it was Diana, sometimes it was Mary. One thing is for sure, by the Copa show in 67 it wasn’t in the act

It was in the act in St. Louis in early 67. I thought Flo sang it all, but I might be remembering incorrectly. I know Diana was not on it because I recall vividly the look on her face as Flo sang - she seemed proud or something....happy maybe - but she was never in the main spotlight on that song. There pink and blue spotlights and `Flo was in a white light. I know I saw Mary sing it with Flo in 1966. I don’t ever recall Diana singing on it, but she might have in 1965…… I think I would remember back, but I just don’t remember her ever singing it. I was shocked when I first heard the recording of it and diana was singing with Flo.

[TheMotownManiac]

Yep a lie to sell books. Remember Mary was told they needed more dirt. I believe it was easier to say that People was snatched from Flo than to tell the Berry was Rhonda's dad.

While I believe that the publisher wanted as much dirt in the book as possible, I do not believe for one second that they would’ve been unhappy with the truth. like a lot of things in her book, I think this excuse is a large truck load of Horse manure.

Just because someone asks you to lie, doesn’t mean you have to lie. There was no reason to lie about people, there was no reason to lie about Florence on the Tonight Show, there was no reason to lie about the use of the Andantes, or to lie about interrupting flow during that interview which wound up on 25th anniversary… When it was actually Mary that interrupt ed Flo - there was anything wrong With that, but she used it as an example if Diana interrupting Flo, when it was really Mary. I feel that Mary was very disingenuous with her book, but, pretending not to understand why diana was upset with her after it’s release, is the most disingenuous thing anyone has ever said ever. Period! “ what did I ever do to her? “ she wailed outside of Spragga when she wasn’t invited to the party…… LOL

[midnightman]

Mary interrupted Flo on the Tonight Show?

[Insert Qaadir's "OKAY now catch the TEA on that".gif]

[midnightman]

It was in the act in St. Louis in early 67. I thought Flo sang it all, but I might be remembering incorrectly. I know Diana was not on it because I recall vividly the look on her face as Flo sang - she seemed proud or something....happy maybe - but she was never in the main spotlight on that song. There pink and blue spotlights and `Flo was in a white light. I know I saw Mary sing it with Flo in 1966. I don’t ever recall Diana singing on it, but she might have in 1965…… I think I would remember back, but I just don’t remember her ever singing it. I was shocked when I first heard the recording of it and diana was singing with Flo.

Now that makes things way more interesting...

[jim aka jtigre99]

This thread has become something else other than if Florence had stayed in the Supremes and how someone felt that she would have been good on "Stoned Love". Like I stated, with the inner tensions had Florence stayed, gordy would have pulled Diana Ross out sooner and probably discontinued the Supremes. had they got a third member with Florence and Mary, he would have given them even less attention than the 1970's Supremes because the company just didn't have the resources and Gordy would have made it his mission to prove he felt Diana Ross was irreplaceable. That aside, all of the members of the Supremes were talented and gave the group their own look and sound and I celebrate all of them and their talents.

[TheMotownManiac]

Mary interrupted Flo on the Tonight Show?

[Insert Qaadir's "OKAY now catch the TEA on that".gif]

no, Mary interrupted Flo during an interview on 25rh anniversary ...but in her book, she says Diana interrupted her.

In her book, Mary says that after Diana announced there was standings on the Tonight Show, that Flo monopolized the conversation after that and giving funny and honest answers to all of Johnny Carson‘s questions. However, now that we have that video, nothing could be further from the truth. I’m sure there are some true things In Mary’s books, but in her zeal to badmouth Diana, she resorts to lying.

It’s the same thing with the people story…….She purposely lead people to believe that glow had had her baby taken away from her which is not true and she neglected to state the fact that she was singing solos on it for at least two years. The way she tells the story versus the way it really happened is pure unadulterated Falsehood. That’s why I question a lot of the things in Mary’s books, because so much has been proven to be omitted or not true or misleading. And in my opinion there’s no excuse for it as it is clear just exactly what her agenda was.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and as we've mentioned before how she forgot to mention things like the interest free loan from DR that kept her from losing her house! did you see that in the book? I didn't!! lol

[midnightman]

no, Mary interrupted Flo during an interview on 25rh anniversary ...but in her book, she says Diana interrupted her.

In her book, Mary says that after Diana announced there was standings on the Tonight Show, that Flo monopolized the conversation after that and giving funny and honest answers to all of Johnny Carson‘s questions. However, now that we have that video, nothing could be further from the truth. I’m sure there are some true things In Mary’s books, but in her zeal to badmouth Diana, she resorts to lying.

It’s the same thing with the people story…….She purposely lead people to believe that glow had had her baby taken away from her which is not true and she neglected to state the fact that she was singing solos on it for at least two years. The way she tells the story versus the way it really happened is pure unadulterated Falsehood. That’s why I question a lot of the things in Mary’s books, because so much has been proven to be omitted or not true or misleading. And in my opinion there’s no excuse for it as it is clear just exactly what her agenda was.

Yikes... not cool. Not cool at all. And Mary wonders why she and Diana ain't close now... :/

[marv2]

and as we've mentioned before how she forgot to mention things like the interest free loan from DR that kept her from losing her house! did you see that in the book? I didn't!! lol

I can't see what everyone else wrote because they are on ignore. I know this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. First of all, I believe you are referring to Mary Wilson. That $30,000 loan Diane made to Mary in 1981 after Mary's divorce was paid back within a year INCLUDING INTEREST!. Mary Wilson wrote about that in detail in her book "Supreme Faith: Someday We'll Be Together" pub. 1990 Harper Collins. Everyone that read the book knows it. Now what else Supremely monumental happened in 1981? Yep, Diane signed a recording deal with RCA for $20 million. That $30,000 including interest payments was chump change especially after all Mary Wilson has done for Diana Ross in the past.......!

Whoever said Mary did not mention that is lying and needs to stop lying all the time. How else do you think we even know about the loan? Mary wrote about it in her book! Lying for the sake of lying just damages the person's overall reputation when they lie. They become known as "the liar", so stop lying all the time.