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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Flo Ballard was a singer, but not lead singer material. She could have never, ever been successful as a replacement for Diana in the Supremes.

    The fact is also that Flo was clumsy: look at any clip and she's rarely as tight as Diana or Mary. Some have it, some don't. That's just a reality: Flo was not a dancer. Even Mary has said Flo had a difficult time with choreography.

    Flo would have also looked ridiculous in the costumes 1967-1970. Cindy brought a glamour to the group that wasn't there when Flo was a member.

    What Flo should have done when she left the group was strike while the iron was hot: become a teacher, perhaps a vocal coach. A manager to young talent. Written an autobiography. Became a game show panalist. Retried and focused on being a Mom. Anything but that dreaded ABC release.
    I disagree. Florence Ballard was a lead singer and everyone that was at Motown at that time would agree with me. She was not groomed to be the lead singer of The Supremes once they hit, but she was definitely a lead singer and a good one. She did far more dancing as a background singer than Diane did as the lead. She also had a more powerful, melodic voice! Add to that, she had the physical attributes of a Hollywood starlet. She drew attention even in the background.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I disagree. Florence Ballard was a lead singer and everyone that was at Motown at that time would agree with me. She was not groomed to be the lead singer of The Supremes once they hit, but she was definitely a lead singer and a good one. She did far more dancing as a background singer than Diane did as the lead. She also had a more powerful, melodic voice! Add to that, she had the physical attributes of a Hollywood starlet. She drew attention even in the background.
    Flo had the pipes, as we know, but her recorded performances were uneven, mostly due to the material she was given. Numbers like "Buttered Popcorn," "Save Me a Star," and "Ain't That Good News" served her well, but [[in my opinion) her couple of Christmas numbers sounded forced and a bit shrill, and, except for her last notes in "People," she sounded rather unsure of herself there. Now, of course, she could have been coached just a little and given material better suited to her voice, but her voice and style weren't going to cross the group over, and that was Gordy's objective. I do understand that Diane definitely needed to sing the leads on the singles toward that objective. Her voice was exactly what was needed for Top Forty success. My main complaint was always that Florence and Mary were so regrettably under-utilized on album cuts and in live performance. To give them more leads in those areas would not have diminished Diane's visibility, or the group's and her later solo success, but this wasn't on her agenda, or on Gordy's either. Had Flo still been on board when Diane split, I suspect she still would not have been selected as lead and someone else would have been recruited. The stylistic change would have been too extreme for the general public to accept. By the time she was dismissed, she was a defeated woman and, probably, only professional intervention could have gotten her back on track, and apparently that just didn't happen. By the time she got a something of a second wind it was too little, too late.
    Last edited by BigAl; 05-09-2018 at 10:15 AM.

  3. #53
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    I don't believe anyone on here is saying Flo [[or even Mary) was a BAD singer. All three of the girls were untrained when they arrived at Motown. None of them had formal training in technique, breath control and support, intonation, etc. Most their training consisted of school choir and then trial and error with the Primettes.

    All three girls had potential but not necessarily in the same genre or areas. Diana was pop. Flo was soul and Mary was more jazzy. Training and coaching would certainly have helped Flo be more accurate in her recordings - her version of People is barely listenable as her intonation is for shit. Her phrasing and vowel placement in Silent Night and O Holy Night are also questionable. However her approach to Good News and Manhattan is really quite nice. So she had the potential. But she needed to be developed

    Diana certainly received considerable opportunity to test and hone her singing. I'm sure we all agree her early tunes are whiny and very nasal. Frankly she's singing as a soprano but really should have been an alto or maybe sop 2. But if you listen to even her earliest songs, her phrasing is FAR superior to either F or M. how Diana handled the lyric was truly impressive, especially for a teenager. That's one of the elements Diana had - an incredible ability to convey the message of a song.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    I don't believe anyone on here is saying Flo [[or even Mary) was a BAD singer. All three of the girls were untrained when they arrived at Motown. None of them had formal training in technique, breath control and support, intonation, etc. Most their training consisted of school choir and then trial and error with the Primettes.

    All three girls had potential but not necessarily in the same genre or areas. Diana was pop. Flo was soul and Mary was more jazzy. Training and coaching would certainly have helped Flo be more accurate in her recordings - her version of People is barely listenable as her intonation is for shit. Her phrasing and vowel placement in Silent Night and O Holy Night are also questionable. However her approach to Good News and Manhattan is really quite nice. So she had the potential. But she needed to be developed

    Diana certainly received considerable opportunity to test and hone her singing. I'm sure we all agree her early tunes are whiny and very nasal. Frankly she's singing as a soprano but really should have been an alto or maybe sop 2. But if you listen to even her earliest songs, her phrasing is FAR superior to either F or M. how Diana handled the lyric was truly impressive, especially for a teenager. That's one of the elements Diana had - an incredible ability to convey the message of a song.
    And even if someone were to say that Florence was a 'bad' singer [[which I would certainly never say) it would be that person's rightful opinion. We don't all have to ascribe to every half-century old urban myth, particularly those that traffic in conspiracy and victimization. I agree completely with your assessment of the three singers.
    Last edited by PeaceNHarmony; 05-09-2018 at 11:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    And even if someone were to say that Florence was a 'bad' singer [[which I would certainly never say) it would be that person's rightful opinion. We don't all have to ascribe to every half-century old urban myth, particularly those that traffic in conspiracy and victimization.
    You are correct on the last bit. I've found the ignore feature to be my best friend on this site.

    And I think Sup_fan is correct that Florence and Mary may have been better at different genres. I just don't agree that Flo would not have been a good lead. She had all the elements needed, but they weren't developed. I know many people think Diana just woke up into the role of lead singer, but there was A LOT of hard work, coaching, and development behind her rise. Every great singer had a great vocal coach at some point.

    I do think Flo would have been better suited for the 70s soul sound shift and perhaps could have gone quite far, with or without the Supremes.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    It's kinda humorous to speculate on all this stuff. Berry Gordy was a smart man and knew the gamble on Ross would pay off.

    By 1966 it was obvious Flo would eventually leave or have to be replaced. Likewise for Jean Terrell, after the first year she gradually became miserable with the pressures and doing most of the work but Mary and Cindy getting more than she. Neither Flo nor Jean ever attempted to come back after leaving. Jean worked in the FLOs in the late 80s but their work load was significantly less than what the Supremes had been.

    Berry Gordy shaped and molded Diane Ross. Together they created DIANA ROSS. He was relentless on her, often abusive. But she gave him results. No way would Flo or Jean tolerated this.
    Thank you.... Let's not forget about throwing the drink in BG's face...she was a thru piece!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    I don't believe anyone on here is saying Flo [[or even Mary) was a BAD singer. All three of the girls were untrained when they arrived at Motown. None of them had formal training in technique, breath control and support, intonation, etc. Most their training consisted of school choir and then trial and error with the Primettes.

    All three girls had potential but not necessarily in the same genre or areas. Diana was pop. Flo was soul and Mary was more jazzy. Training and coaching would certainly have helped Flo be more accurate in her recordings - her version of People is barely listenable as her intonation is for shit. Her phrasing and vowel placement in Silent Night and O Holy Night are also questionable. However her approach to Good News and Manhattan is really quite nice. So she had the potential. But she needed to be developed

    Diana certainly received considerable opportunity to test and hone her singing. I'm sure we all agree her early tunes are whiny and very nasal. Frankly she's singing as a soprano but really should have been an alto or maybe sop 2. But if you listen to even her earliest songs, her phrasing is FAR superior to either F or M. how Diana handled the lyric was truly impressive, especially for a teenager. That's one of the elements Diana had - an incredible ability to convey the message of a song.
    One thing that stood out when Maxine Powell talked of the Motown acts she worked with was that it was Diana that was the "hardest-working" one of them all [[and that includes Mary and Flo). Like when I hear People, Flo sounds fine but then when Diana sings her little part, you can kinda see how the vocal training paid off for her. As Marvin Gaye later said, Diana could outdo you in anything [[or something to that effect; I know he praised her talent a lot in the Divided Soul book even as he admitted he was being ridiculous during the D&M sessions).

    Flo and Mary had better voices but for some reason it never was utilized right. My guess is that most of the Motown acts who weren't called to do the leads didn't think it was necessary to do so. Maybe that's why F & M probably didn't get many leads because they weren't coached harder vocally. I have to wonder how vocal lessons were with the three of them. They definitely had the vocal harmony parts DOWN PAT and probably had the best three-part vocal harmonies of the girl groups prior to the ascent of the Pointer Sisters and the Emotions [[though I feel the Clark Sisters had the best vocal harmonies of any girl group in history; that said, they were gospel and there were five of them at one point versus just three for the Supremes). The Three Degrees couldn't match them [[IMHO they were Supremes wannabes).

    I wonder why Milton Jenkins didn't vocally train them hard enough. Maxine said it best: the Supremes were all diamonds in the rough. So how come Diana learn to get better but the others stayed the way they were? I think if they had matched Diana in how to deliver a song, maybe... JUST MAYBE, Flo and Mary could've took over on lead when Diana left.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvus7 View Post
    Thank you.... Let's not forget about throwing the drink in BG's face...she was a thru piece!!!
    HAHA I love that. She didn't take no mess... ugh, I just wish she was here. I think she would've had the same triumphant story Bettye LaVette had if she lived and we would be talking about her new blues record or whatever. RIP FLO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    One thing that stood out when Maxine Powell talked of the Motown acts she worked with was that it was Diana that was the "hardest-working" one of them all [[and that includes Mary and Flo). Like when I hear People, Flo sounds fine but then when Diana sings her little part, you can kinda see how the vocal training paid off for her. As Marvin Gaye later said, Diana could outdo you in anything [[or something to that effect; I know he praised her talent a lot in the Divided Soul book even as he admitted he was being ridiculous during the D&M sessions).

    Flo and Mary had better voices but for some reason it never was utilized right. My guess is that most of the Motown acts who weren't called to do the leads didn't think it was necessary to do so. Maybe that's why F & M probably didn't get many leads because they weren't coached harder vocally. I have to wonder how vocal lessons were with the three of them. They definitely had the vocal harmony parts DOWN PAT and probably had the best three-part vocal harmonies of the girl groups prior to the ascent of the Pointer Sisters and the Emotions [[though I feel the Clark Sisters had the best vocal harmonies of any girl group in history; that said, they were gospel and there were five of them at one point versus just three for the Supremes). The Three Degrees couldn't match them [[IMHO they were Supremes wannabes).

    I wonder why Milton Jenkins didn't vocally train them hard enough. Maxine said it best: the Supremes were all diamonds in the rough. So how come Diana learn to get better but the others stayed the way they were? I think if they had matched Diana in how to deliver a song, maybe... JUST MAYBE, Flo and Mary could've took over on lead when Diana left.
    Milton was a hustler. He wasn't no vocal coach! LOL! I can hear him doubling over laughing at that.
    Last edited by marv2; 05-09-2018 at 03:40 PM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Milton was a hustler. He wasn't no vocal coach! LOL! I hear him doubling over laughing at that.
    Did you know Milton Jenkins, too???LOL!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dvus7 View Post
    Did you know Milton Jenkins, too???LOL!!!
    I did not KNOW Milton....someone real close to me and family did though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dvus7 View Post
    Did you know Milton Jenkins, too???LOL!!!
    He knows the guy who created the Statue of Liberty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I know the Holland Bros. worked with the Supremes again in the 70s and with Mary in the 2000s [[yeah I know the album is still unreleased), but haven't they ever worked with Diana Ross again?
    Yes, they did tracks on Ross in 1977 and 78 as I recall, only one, We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again was issued.

    Also when HDH was inducted into the RR HOF, it was Ross who presented them, not Mary Wilson

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    I think Flo's lead vocal on both versions of Makes No Difference Now and People, shows the potential she had as a lead singer. Had both her and Mary took all the extra time in practicing, vocal coaching, etc. like Diana did I have no doubt that they, especially Flo, would have had their potential bloom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I think Flo's lead vocal on both versions of Makes No Difference Now and People, shows the potential she had as a lead singer. Had both her and Mary took all the extra time in practicing, vocal coaching, etc. like Diana did I have no doubt that they, especially Flo, would have had their potential bloom.
    that would be true in theory but since it wasn’t offered to them, they had to work with what they had

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    He knows the guy who created the Statue of Liberty.
    Who would that be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    he knows the guy who created the statue of liberty.
    lolololololololol

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    I thought he was the Statue of Liberty

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Yes, they did tracks on Ross in 1977 and 78 as I recall, only one, We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again was issued.
    H-D-H also produced Diana's previously unreleased "Fire Don't Burn" which finally saw the light of day on the Expanded CD edition of "Diana" [[1980 Chic-produced album) Disc 2, Track 2.

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    I doubt that Stone Love Sold almost 2 million copies up the ladder to the roof sold over 800,000 how can Forever Came Today some things you never get used to the composer or no matter what sign you are be put up against those great records none of them made the top 20

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    There is only one song I would have like to hear Flo sing and that is "Once In The Morning" from the dreaded Jimmy Webb album. I think she would given it a good run. Now as far as Flor returning....no ....nawda... Nope. There were several opportunities for Flo to return and either Flo, Mary or Motown said no or never considered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Flo Ballard was a singer, but not lead singer material. She could have never, ever been successful as a replacement for Diana in the Supremes.

    The fact is also that Flo was clumsy: look at any clip and she's rarely as tight as Diana or Mary. Some have it, some don't. That's just a reality: Flo was not a dancer. Even Mary has said Flo had a difficult time with choreography.

    Flo would have also looked ridiculous in the costumes 1967-1970. Cindy brought a glamour to the group that wasn't there when Flo was a member.

    What Flo should have done when she left the group was strike while the iron was hot: become a teacher, perhaps a vocal coach. A manager to young talent. Written an autobiography. Became a game show panalist. Retried and focused on being a Mom. Anything but that dreaded ABC release.
    I don't think either Mary or Flo could have replaced Diana. Mary admitted that she did not have the confidence, and neither Mary or Flo had the ambition and drive that Diana had. Add to that Flo's troubles , which today would be easy to diagnose and correct with medication.

    Anyhow, I think that Jean was the perfect choice for the Supremes. They continued to give us some great music and performances.

    I'm a little late, but I hope you enjoyed your special day today. Have a Happy

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    Lol yeah.

    Flo was totally against joining the Supremes even after Diana left. She wanted to move on.

    That's what people don't get. Flo was TIRED of them. Not of the history they made, or their [[splintered) bond, or that, just the business. Flo wanted nothing to do with returning to the past. She was a forward thinking person and before her death, she had definitely gained her confidence back, it sounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    She was an extremely much better vocalist than Diana Ross. He should have put his money on her. It would have gone a lot further......
    He tried to, but she resisted doing things the way he wanted. The company was still behind that group but they didn’t pay off. A&M tried Jean also with a similar result. She wasn’t star material and the industry knew it. She could sing, but there are millions of great singers wowing churches and theaters across North America - that doesn’t make them stars. The public decides who is a star when presented with each new comer.

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    I mean we see what happens sometimes when labels sign artists who have big powerful voices. Not everyone can blow up like an Aretha or Tina or Whitney or even Gladys and Patti. The Flos, Brenda Holloways, Jennifer Hollidays and such were never gonna be as big as their counterparts because either their labels didn't care much for them or it was wasted potential or a bit of both.

    Also it helps if you have a real good team behind you. FLO JUST DID NOT HAVE THAT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    back to the initial topic of the thread

    had flo stayed in the group, I think we all agree she would have been lead after Diana left. to be honest, I don't think flo had the juice at the point to lead a group. as Mary has said, being a lead singer is different than singing lead on a song or two. it requires an onstage persona and presence. perhaps as they were prepping D to go solo, they would have started doing more with Flo to prepare her. but maybe not

    had she taken over the group and with Mary still there, I wonder if they could have made a more abrupt image change. with two original members, maybe there would have been enough continuity with the group and they could have. Could they have gone into a more r&b concept and image without losing all of their pop base?
    i do not think Flo would have been the lead if she stayed. Motown would still want an articulate, classy, versatile pop songstress to appeal to their fans - and the club audiences that gave them months and months or work each year. Flo was too ghetto to lead the group, but, she easily could have played a bigger role onstage with funny patter and a rollicking tune or two....if she and Gordy got along.

    No way was BG going to have the leader of his flagship group Addressing crowds at The Waldorf with grammar like, “I had me a few drinks”..... I loved Flo to death, but let’s be real here. She never graduated and it showed. Gordy had grammar beaten into the J5 before they were allowed to speak to anyone outside the company.

    Flo had had a big voice and amazing stage presence - in the bg- We don’t know how’d she behave as the lead - an entirely different ballgame.

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    This is very interesting and as much as i loved hearing flo on lead. Long gone lover aint that good news and rocking the bg on baby love and come see about me in particular. I have to agree with motownmaniac. Flo needed people behind her like diana had and lets face it diana had charisma as smokey said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by franjoy56 View Post
    I doubt that Stone Love Sold almost 2 million copies up the ladder to the roof sold over 800,000 how can Forever Came Today some things you never get used to the composer or no matter what sign you are be put up against those great records none of them made the top 20
    Oh those were great records. They brought the Supremes back to life with the public , especially the young record buyers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by franjoy56 View Post
    This is very interesting and as much as i loved hearing flo on lead. Long gone lover aint that good news and rocking the bg on baby love and come see about me in particular. I have to agree with motownmaniac. Flo needed people behind her like diana had and lets face it diana had charisma as smokey said.
    Don't forget on Marvin Gaye's "Can I Get A Witness" I hear Flo above all the rest.

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    Florence could hit the notes, but the singing quality and phrasing was quite amateurish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    Yes you can. People [[myself included) have criticised the poor quality of her vocals on that album , but we do have to take into account her pregnancy. It would have been better for all concerned had they waited six months to record the album. It would still have flopped because the material was generally of a sub standard quality, but at least Mary would have sounded a little less strained.
    i’m sorry, but I have NO patience for Flo or Mary recording their debut albums while compromised by pregnancy. It was idiotic of Flo to get pregnant when she did, and stoooopid of both of them to not be at their best at the most important sessions of their careers. I loved Flo to death but she didn’t have a lick of sense when it came to her career. Everything she did was wrong and her album makes me cringe. Flo couldn’t take care of herself before she became a mother, what Maricopa supposed to take place after she gave birth to twins that was going to allow her to become a mother of twins and launch a career?????? The same stupidity that signed that awful contract with her attorney separating her from Motown. She was stupid, but to this very day I still watch her videos, Cherish the memories I have of seeing her alive,and love her very very very very much.

    I can’t believe people are speculating that flow or Mary could’ve led the Supremes after diana ross. They couldn’t have because the berry Gordy would never have allowed it. They didn’t have the chops and everyone at Motown knew it. No one at the company had any interest in promoting Mary as a solo artist… Just like every other record company: no interest whatsoever. Why people blame Motown I don’t know..... i’m proud of Mary now for the career that she has and for embracing what she does so very well. I do not think that Flo wood ever been able to have the career that Mary has…… Mary is smart Mary is a survivor Mary is cunning. Flo had a big heart and a big voice and absolutely no common sense whatsoever when it came to a career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Don't forget on Marvin Gaye's "Can I Get A Witness" I hear Flo above all the rest.
    So she’s loud. So what?

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    What's with this singing loud business?

    You know who else sang real loud in the back on a Marvin Gaye recording?

    Martha Reeves of Martha & The Vandellas.

    So we were saying?

    How did Martha get to be a star while Flo had to be a star but singing in the background?

    I mean, I guess Martha and Wanda of the Marvelettes actually had more patience than Florence Ballard to make something out of their careers that they were able to live their dreams being stars while Flo was relegated to the backgrounds.

    Maybe it's because they had "it" factors and Flo...didn't?
    Last edited by midnightman; 05-10-2018 at 05:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    I don't believe anyone on here is saying Flo [[or even Mary) was a BAD singer. All three of the girls were untrained when they arrived at Motown. None of them had formal training in technique, breath control and support, intonation, etc. Most their training consisted of school choir and then trial and error with the Primettes.

    All three girls had potential but not necessarily in the same genre or areas. Diana was pop. Flo was soul and Mary was more jazzy. Training and coaching would certainly have helped Flo be more accurate in her recordings - her version of People is barely listenable as her intonation is for shit. Her phrasing and vowel placement in Silent Night and O Holy Night are also questionable. However her approach to Good News and Manhattan is really quite nice. So she had the potential. But she needed to be developed

    Diana certainly received considerable opportunity to test and hone her singing. I'm sure we all agree her early tunes are whiny and very nasal. Frankly she's singing as a soprano but really should have been an alto or maybe sop 2. But if you listen to even her earliest songs, her phrasing is FAR superior to either F or M. how Diana handled the lyric was truly impressive, especially for a teenager. That's one of the elements Diana had - an incredible ability to convey the message of a song.
    i love your assessment of Diana’s early work - the sound is whiny and nasal, but her phrasing is amazing - listening to meet the Supremes and hearing her handle several styles with terrific understanding of the beat, lyric and writers intent is a marvelous natural talent she had and still does. Flo plugged into Good News well, but I never felt on one thing she sang that she knew what the lyric meant. I do think Flo was a bad vocalist and I do not believe that can be taught. Mary adapted but she always had promise from their first single.

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    I always felt that Diana had the most distinctive voice and that Mary also had a distinctive voice, as well. Florence certainly sang well but even in some recordings her pitch and phrasing are not on par with Diana and Mary. I always felt when Mary hired Scherrie she found someone who had the strength of Florence, which Mary always admired, but also stage presence and the ability to sing a song and sell it. That said, there was no one in the Supremes who wasn't a great singer. I always felt that each of them could have had careers singing or acting apart from the Supremes which could have been tied to their own individual strengths. Unfortunately, being tied to the group has some preconceived notions on what they would sound like as a soloist. I love all of the former Supremes.

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    That's true, Jim... each Supreme did bring something special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Her voice during the Motown years was incredible.

    But the ABC recordings, clearly something was amiss. Especially considering the material and the voice she delivered, she didn't seem like she was into the songs ABC gave her. :/

    But I don't think her voice stood out considering other stronger singers there like Gladys and Martha. Flo could've easily done a Wanda Rogers thing where she turned a pop song into something more earthy and sultry, which was Wanda's talent and seemed to be Flo's too. They both were able to be diverse like that when they were both in Motown.
    I suggest that when Flo Ballard left The Supremes & Motown for ABC, she did not get the top-notch songs [[except for 'Love Ain't Love' & 'Forever Faithfull') nor a sympathetic producer that could consistently tap into her talents as a singer. She also did not get much of a chance since she was dropped by ABC Records after her first two singles for them flopped.

    And while I would've loved to hear Flo singing lead vocals on songs like 'Stoned Love', I feel that there's no way that BG would've made her the lead singer of The Supremes [[or let her sing lead on any of the singles) after the friction between them during the group's peak years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motown Eddie View Post
    I suggest that when Flo Ballard left The Supremes & Motown for ABC, she did not get the top-notch songs [[except for 'Love Ain't Love' & 'Forever Faithfull') nor a sympathetic producer that could consistently tap into her talents as a singer. She also did not get much of a chance since she was dropped by ABC Records after her first two singles for them flopped.

    And while I would've loved to hear Flo singing lead vocals on songs like 'Stoned Love', I feel that there's no way that BG would've made her the lead singer of The Supremes [[or let her sing lead on any of the singles) after the friction between them during the group's peak years.
    Right. It was NEVER gonna happen...

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    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    What's with this singing loud business?

    You know who else sang real loud in the back on a Marvin Gaye recording?

    Martha Reeves of Martha & The Vandellas.

    So we were saying?

    How did Martha get to be a star while Flo had to be a star but singing in the background?

    I mean, I guess Martha and Wanda of the Marvelettes actually had more patience than Florence Ballard to make something out of their careers that they were able to live their dreams being stars while Flo was relegated to the backgrounds.

    Maybe it's because they had "it" factors and Flo...didn't?
    Are you kidding me? You must be kidding me? Florence Ballard was the founder of the most successful female vocal group in the history of the World. She, they were some the biggest stars on the planet in the sixties. Why try to downplay that like it was some trivia accomplishment?
    As much as I love Martha Reeves and I love the Marvelettes........none of them reached the heights that Florence Ballard did with the Supremes. People are still talking about her after she's left this World over 40 years ago. It is also true that there are people out there that liked her much more than Diana Ross. All three of the original members of the Supremes had the "IT"factor, but not all three were given the opportunity for solo success. Why is that fact so hard for you and some others to comprehend? I know you cannot be this dumb. I believe you just like to keep shit going even if it means slamming the late, great Florence Ballard. People are still going to hate, dislike or not even care about Diane. I mention her because I know what the motivation is behind you guys always downgrading every Motown artist other than Diana Ross. If she was so great she would have gotten a hit in the last 35 years. It's gotten tired and it's been stupid since day one!

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    Well said Marv. Even Miss Ross has stated “Florence had a beautiful voice.” Florence’s charisma helped propel them to the top, much less her voice which hit those glorious notes!

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    Flo and Mary definitely had charisma and phenomenal stage presence but they lost it along the way, Mary much earlier than Flo did. In those TV appearances from '64-65 [[Shindig, Hullabaloo, Ready Steady Go), I'd say Flo had a great stage presence and a confidence about her. But then the Copa happened and that's when it seems she started to slowly losing it and just began going through the motions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    Flo and Mary definitely had charisma and phenomenal stage presence but they lost it along the way, Mary much earlier than Flo did. In those TV appearances from '64-65 [[Shindig, Hullabaloo, Ready Steady Go), I'd say Flo had a great stage presence and a confidence about her. But then the Copa happened and that's when it seems she started to slowly losing it and just began going through the motions.
    Yeah, as talked about, when Flo was on TV, you can definitely see her shine onstage. You can easily see why her charm helped to make the Supremes' live show great in those early hit making years.

    Think by the Copa, Flo got worn out by the schedule and also, her demons probably came at her at once and that made being professional hard to do for her. Ugh, so tragic. :/

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    There seems to be a thought among a few members that all anyone needs is grooming and they as well could lead the USA’S biggest group, become a solo super star or conquer any area of show business they desire.
    “If only Diane and Berry would have........”
    Well, Diana had very little to say about the show content at all. Certainly not who got leads. I’ve read several places that it took an act of Congress to get Mary her solo spot[[s) in the show and that only happened at the insistence of Gil and Diana because she needed to rest her voice. She may have been a spotlight hog, I don’t know. But she wouldn’t have given her People spot to Mary if she was against it. And you notice, in Mary’s book, when she mentioned Flo losing People at The Copa, she led readers to believe it was out of the act period. Not just temporary and, surprise, surprise - not that SHE would be singing a solo in it. If folks wonder why Diana wants nothing to do with her, I’m sure this is just one of dozens of reasons. It’s why I take her books with a grain of salt. Mary is a fun and very kind person, but her agenda with Diana is issue laden.

    I believe Berry kept them out if the spotlight because he saw no value in it and nothing more - not hidden, jealousy ravaged agendas. He simply didn’t care for their voices. Neither would ever lead the group while he was running things. Motown chose to cancel shows that let Mary lead in the 70s - yet let Lynda lead on her first show with no rehearsal- and Diana was long gone by then...... this was not some evil, mean spirited decision to ruin lives. It was business - pure and simple. Had either woman hone on to another label and been big hits, i’d Be dead wrong. But, there was no interest in developing either. Maybe Berry, Motown and the industry knew something we didn’t?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    Are you kidding me? You must be kidding me? Florence Ballard was the founder of the most successful female vocal group in the history of the World. She, they were some the biggest stars on the planet in the sixties. Why try to downplay that like it was some trivia accomplishment?
    As much as I love Martha Reeves and I love the Marvelettes........none of them reached the heights that Florence Ballard did with the Supremes. People are still talking about her after she's left this World over 40 years ago. It is also true that there are people out there that liked her much more than Diana Ross. All three of the original members of the Supremes had the "IT"factor, but not all three were given the opportunity for solo success. Why is that fact so hard for you and some others to comprehend? I know you cannot be this dumb. I believe you just like to keep shit going even if it means slamming the late, great Florence Ballard. People are still going to hate, dislike or not even care about Diane. I mention her because I know what the motivation is behind you guys always downgrading every Motown artist other than Diana Ross. If she was so great she would have gotten a hit in the last 35 years. It's gotten tired and it's been stupid since day one!
    YOU are getting tired. No one is downgrading any Motown artist here. No one is downgrading Tammi, Jean, Brenda, Martha, Gladys1, Gladys2, Wanda, Syreeta, Mary, Lynda or Mable John. Stop making stuff up. No one is saying Flo had a bad voice. We are saying she was a poor vocal-IST. look it up. I think everyone here has stated how popular she was and a very great visual aid to the group. You are making this into a “.......VS Diana thing” and it’s not. You don’t like Ross, that’s fine. Millions do. All three did not have The it factor because Mary’s voice is not commercial at all and Flo was not a pop singer. That was The it Berry wanted and sold to humongous success. Berry spent a fortune on Chris Clark and couldn’t launch her. Mary and Flo had the exact same chance Diana did in 1960 - one was chosen. That WAS their chance. They were featured in their shows and any label could have been knocked out by their ability and lured them away like Mary Wells. They had their chances but no one believed in them. Geez, if only I had been developed, I could have been the next Tom Jones or Elton John - instead I got a degree at Souther Illinois University. It’s just not fair! No one saw it in me and we all should be given equal chances even if no one wants to invest time and money in us.

    In Your way way of thinking: Kathy Dalton could be Janis Joplin, Edye Gorme could be Babs, Deanna Durban could Judy Garland........all they needed was the same chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    YOU are getting tired. No one is downgrading any Motown artist here. No one is downgrading Tammi, Jean, Brenda, Martha, Gladys1, Gladys2, Wanda, Syreeta, Mary, Lynda or Mable John. Stop making stuff up. No one is saying Flo had a bad voice. We are saying she was a poor vocal-IST. look it up. I think everyone here has stated how popular she was and a very great visual aid to the group. You are making this into a “.......VS Diana thing” and it’s not. You don’t like Ross, that’s fine. Millions do. All three did not have The it factor because Mary’s voice is not commercial at all and Flo was not a pop singer. That was The it Berry wanted and sold to humongous success. Berry spent a fortune on Chris Clark and couldn’t launch her. Mary and Flo had the exact same chance Diana did in 1960 - one was chosen. That WAS their chance. They were featured in their shows and any label could have been knocked out by their ability and lured them away like Mary Wells. They had their chances but no one believed in them. Geez, if only I had been developed, I could have been the next Tom Jones or Elton John - instead I got a degree at Souther Illinois University. It’s just not fair! No one saw it in me and we all should be given equal chances even if no one wants to invest time and money in us.

    In Your way way of thinking: Kathy Dalton could be Janis Joplin, Edye Gorme could be Babs, Deanna Durban could Judy Garland........all they needed was the same chance.
    Thank you MotownManiac. I agree 💯💯

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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    Well said Marv. Even Miss Ross has stated “Florence had a beautiful voice.” Florence’s charisma helped propel them to the top, much less her voice which hit those glorious notes!
    This is the last great Flo appearance - she’s adorable! Nov ‘66

    https://youtu.be/hCcUq03mtxU

    she didn’t need to sing lead - she brought so much to the group just BEING!

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    Flo had flair and style. That's why she was important to the Supremes. She was an all around talent. Period. I mean if Flo didn't have anything, why would she have been in the Primettes? Same with Mary and Diana. This is why if you're living in a glasshouse, don't throw stones. Don't do that. We all said Flo had a really good voice but it wasn't good enough for any leads. Or as a soloist. And we said if she had more vocal training, she would've been better than she was. THAT'S IT. Some folks just look at "Flo" and "bad" and think it's hating. Sad.

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    @MotownManiac, and Mary taking over for People is NOW well documented. She's seen singing it during their Asia tour and at the Roostertail Lounge that same year. If Diana was hogging the spotlight that much, you'd think she be ranting that neither Flo or Mary should lead. Diana was being dragged left and right to the studios singing lead and worked to death so much she suffered from anorexia nervosa due to her being picked as the lead singer, meaning even if she thought Mary or Flo could sing lead on some songs [[heck, during the making of their make-or-break record, Where Did Our Love Go, Diana didn't even wanna sing WDOLG and got into a cursing, scolding argument with HDH over it and probably said "Mary should sing this, I can't sing this!"). I mean, we never got to hear her side of the story! Everyone else either talks about her or talk about the other members. The expose that "People" was never a DR song after the Copa in '66, makes you wonder what other stories are told that turn out to be something someone from Radar Online or the National Enquirer can claim happen.

    All to defame one of the most successful black entertainers in history all because Florence didn't get more leads when it wasn't called for her to get them because everything was in Diana Ross' lap and not Florence's.

  49. #99
    honest man Guest
    Florence Ballard And Mary Wilson where excellent background singers to a iconic lead singer Diana Ross,nothing more,nothing less,NOW GET BACK TO YOUR MICROPHONES,

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    To my thinking, the act's incredible success was truly a convergence of talents: right time, right place, right players. It would be interesting to conjecture how things might have played out had Betty or Barbara remained with the group, but I digress. Had there been no Gordy with faith and foresight, had there been no HDH, had there been no Maxine Powell, who knows what might have happened? Had there been no Supremes it's possible there might have been no Diana Ross. Although she had a thin voice, she had the astounding drive and a mentor/ally in Gordy, with superior vocal support from Flo and Mary, and, possibly more than anything else, material and production from HDH. As for Flo and Mary, it's probable that neither possessed the indefatigable drive to rise to the very top, so they needed Diane and she needed them. Had she begun as a solo she might not have taken flight. Eventually her ambition outgrew the group, which happens all the time with groups. Had JMC burst upon the scene, as a professionally assembled group rather than one which grew more organically and had established name recognition and a following, even their material might not have done as well as it did. No one operates in a vacuum.
    Last edited by BigAl; 05-13-2018 at 10:51 AM.

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