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  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    Yikes... not cool. Not cool at all. And Mary wonders why she and Diana ain't close now... :/
    You should be quite full of it by now, because you eat up everything and anything......hehehehehehe!

  2. #152
    If you guys want my opinion on this matter, I think the thread is silly. Who knows what would happen if so and so stayed in a group or who was responsible for what. Its the music business. Get over it.

  3. #153
    ^ And that's pretty much all there is to that.

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by marv2 View Post
    I can't see what everyone else wrote because they are on ignore. I know this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. First of all, I believe you are referring to Mary Wilson. That $30,000 loan Diane made to Mary in 1981 after Mary's divorce was paid back within a year INCLUDING INTEREST!. Mary Wilson wrote about that in detail in her book "Supreme Faith: Someday We'll Be Together" pub. 1990 Harper Collins. Everyone that read the book knows it. Now what else Supremely monumental happened in 1981? Yep, Diane signed a recording deal with RCA for $20 million. That $30,000 including interest payments was chump change especially after all Mary Wilson has done for Diana Ross in the past.......!

    Whoever said Mary did not mention that is lying and needs to stop lying all the time. How else do you think we even know about the loan? Mary wrote about it in her book! Lying for the sake of lying just damages the person's overall reputation when they lie. They become known as "the liar", so stop lying all the time.
    You are correct that Mary said she paid it back with interest as requested. Personal loans of that size need to charge minimal interest or the IRS gets involved. It was chump change and Im sure no biggie, but she had just been ripped off pretty good, so she was being more careful. Mary did very little for Diana that I can think of. What were you referring to?

    as for lying, .....////

  5. #155
    However, if Flo HAD stayed, it would be because she was OK and the group would have been as or more popular. I do not think Flo on any of the records that the on Dantes did would’ve changed the fortunes of those records, but it would’ve been so wonderful to have her there. Then, after January 14, 1970, the addition of Jhen to row would not have been such a shock to the system and I think the new group would have fared much better . Flo didn’t have to sing any leads, and maybe she would’ve had one here in there, just having her in the group improved it so much. She was immensely popular and without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music that I can think of…… No one even comes close! She would’ve been adorable in the green swirl dresses, the butterfly downs, the pleated sleeves ......If Flo had stayed, the group would’ve been more popular in the 60s and the 70s…… No matter what her participation was. By the time mary got her hair together which was 1968, the two of them would’ve been dynamite of epic proportion’s.

  6. #156
    in the 1960's, it was all about RADIO, a record was a hit or it wasn't...and RADIO didn't care about all of the above, if it did, all those Andantes backed Diana Ross records released as Supremes wouldn't have gone to #1..

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    However, if Flo HAD stayed, it would be because she was OK and the group would have been as or more popular. I do not think Flo on any of the records that the on Dantes did would’ve changed the fortunes of those records, but it would’ve been so wonderful to have her there. Then, after January 14, 1970, the addition of Jhen to row would not have been such a shock to the system and I think the new group would have fared much better . Flo didn’t have to sing any leads, and maybe she would’ve had one here in there, just having her in the group improved it so much. She was immensely popular and without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music that I can think of…… No one even comes close! She would’ve been adorable in the green swirl dresses, the butterfly downs, the pleated sleeves ......If Flo had stayed, the group would’ve been more popular in the 60s and the 70s…… No matter what her participation was. By the time mary got her hair together which was 1968, the two of them would’ve been dynamite of epic proportion’s.
    In your thinking (and this is not a negative indictment by me), was Florence being "without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music" true back in the sixties or is it true based on what happened to her that folk found out about her tragic death? Living back in the 60s, other than from Supreme fans, I don't recall there being a lot of buzz in the popular music realm about either Mary or Florence as individuals.

  8. #158
    You are quite right - radio didn’t care that Flo left - only I did! What I was saying is that there was some small amount of drop off in interest in the group cuz Flo was gone but that after Ross left, The 70s Supremes would not have seemed so unfamiliar if Jean was the only new member. Flo was beloved by a large part of the core fans - the casual fans didn’t care who it was - but let’s face it: Cindy, sweet as she is, didn’t have one-tenth the charisma Flo had - Mary was not in Flo’s league either, but she developed after Flo left. I think the story of JMF would have been much happier for all concerned - including the fans - if Flo had stayed. The revolving door syndrome was no myth, many/most fans could look at the Right On cover all day and not see The Supremes. Flo would have been a huge help in that dept. their box office problems, IMO, would not have been so bad so fast.

    Again, no one cared who was in the bg, as long as it was assumed it was Real Supremes. The sound meant nothing. Two of their biggest had no Supremes in the bg, used different personnel, and both went platinum. It did matter however when casual fans didn’t recognize members no matter how good they were.

  9. #159
    I wonder how other groups' fans feel about us lol

    They must think "man these Supremes fans are bananas."
    Last edited by midnightman; 05-16-2018 at 12:37 PM.

  10. #160
    we ARE! and I adored Diana, Mary and Flo and rooted for all three and all their projects during and after the group...but the attacks(baseless attacks I might add) on the figurehead of 1960's Motown (yes, HER) are not something I will quietly abide by..plus it gives me the chance to point out that if DR hadn't been DR, Motown Records wouldn't have been Motown Records, at least not on the scale that it reached because of HER!!

  11. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia View Post
    we ARE! and I adored Diana, Mary and Flo and rooted for all three and all their projects during and after the group...but the attacks(baseless attacks I might add) on the figurehead of 1960's Motown (yes, HER) are not something I will quietly abide by..plus it gives me the chance to point out that if DR hadn't been DR, Motown Records wouldn't have been Motown Records, at least not on the scale that it reached because of HER!!
    I don't understand how it's still controversial to say Diana Ross contributed to the majority of Motown Records' successes. But I see how many successful black women who get to the TOP as she did (like Whitney Houston and Janet Jackson) get the ultimate disrespect. So I guess I'm not surprised. Especially when it's YOUR OWN PEOPLE waiting to tear you down because they feel you "left them".

  12. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightman View Post
    I don't understand how it's still controversial to say Diana Ross contributed to the majority of Motown Records' successes. But I see how many successful black women who get to the TOP as she did (like Whitney Houston and Janet Jackson) get the ultimate disrespect. So I guess I'm not surprised. Especially when it's YOUR OWN PEOPLE waiting to tear you down because they feel you "left them".
    A sad conundrum indeed. I always remember Dionne's statement 'When I look in the mirror I know who I am' when questioned about her 'Blackness'.

  13. #163
    I mostly agree with 'It's the music business, get over it'. But for real? If Florence Ballard had returned to The Supremes at any time after Diana left there would have been a brief resurgence of interest before the ultimate disbandment. Diana was the voice and the face of the Supremes. Get over it.

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by jobucats View Post
    In your thinking (and this is not a negative indictment by me), was Florence being "without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music" true back in the sixties or is it true based on what happened to her that folk found out about her tragic death? Living back in the 60s, other than from Supreme fans, I don't recall there being a lot of buzz in the popular music realm about either Mary or Florence as individuals.
    Excellent question! Among Supremes fans, many loved Flo enough to mention her. No one ever mentioned (to me) Mary or any of the other bg singers in girl groups. Or boy groups for that matter. As the years rolled on and I got to know many fans, the ones that mentioned a bg singer in a positive manner, like 95% of it was Flo, a few liked Cindy and Marv prefers Mary. Of course, some liked them all and many only liked Diana. This is in no way meant as a slam to Mary, because they were all wonderful…… But, she just didn’t shine as bright as Flo Who just seem to have that something extra. In the scheme of things, she wasn’t that popular I guess, because, aside from the real true fans, there was very little hubbub about it when she left. Personally, I was horrified and never appreciated Cindy until I met her - and even then it was a tough sell. Once Diana left, I realized they weren’t really The Supremes anymore in name only - so then, Cindy was a welcome member. Mary benefitted a great deal by Flo’s departure as she really outshined Cindy and upped her game a great deal.

  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    A sad conundrum indeed. I always remember Dionne's statement 'When I look in the mirror I know who I am' when questioned about her 'Blackness'.
    Yeah. Whitney had the same issue after she got booed at the Soul Train Awards in 1989. And, if I'm not mistaken, so did Donna Summer and Beyonce (before she began her "woke" era in the post-era Obama America). Like the more successful you get and you start to get involved in being a crossover artist, some who knew you from jump street think you're "not hip" anymore because you've made it well for yourself. It's a sad putdown. Trying to exist in two worlds if you're in the entertainment industry is tough.

  16. #166
    I was avoiding this thread like the plague. Lol Glad I did but I'm going to throw my two cents in and dip. I think it's obvious that a lot of the Mary/Flo fans just refuse to bring themselves to the factual conclusion that Diana Ross was a bigger component to the success of the Supremes than Mary and Florence. On top of that, some of them seem to have internalized any gripes that Mary and Flo had in regards to Diana Ross and the internal problems of the group, as if what happened to the girls, happened to the fan. Weird.

    On the other hand, many Diana fans hate the fact that Florence and Mary can never be relegated to nameless, faceless, voiceless, background singers for Diana. They were never marketed that way (honestly, not even during the DRATS era, though it was clear which singer was being pushed), and me thinks it's hard for some to recognize that, while true that Diana was the BIG piece of the Supreme pie, she didn't- and couldn't- do it alone. Nothing provokes their annoyance quite like RTL, a situation that drummed home the fact that the larger public was more interested in the combo of Diana and Mary (and Cindy) than they were Diana with faceless, nameless, voiceless Supremes. (Not that I feel that way about Scherrie and Lynda, but the general public feels that way.)

    The Supremes were successful because of the three singers. The three women were equally important human beings above all else. One went on to superstardom, another carved out her own place in music with sheer determination and hard work, while another rode the wave of life, rising to triumph, dipping into despair, and slowly climbing her way back up until the life was cut short. But the three of them together left behind some of the greatest music ever.

    I wish the actual threads about the music itself received so many passionate responses. But I guess the music isn't an interesting as the drama.

  17. #167
    'though it was clear which singer was being pushed'...lol..really?
    she was the LEAD SINGER..like Martha Reeves, Gladys Knight, Levi Stubbs, Smokey Robinson, etc....LEAD SINGER...period... such silly statements,was Beyonce pushed in Destiny's Child?...no, she was the LEAD SINGER...get over it!!!

  18. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia View Post
    'though it was clear which singer was being pushed'...lol..really?
    she was the LEAD SINGER..like Martha Reeves, Gladys Knight, Levi Stubbs, Smokey Robinson, etc....LEAD SINGER...period... such silly statements,was Beyonce pushed in Destiny's Child?...no, she was the LEAD SINGER...get over it!!!
    Are you stupid or something? Lets revisit my comment just in case you are a bit on the slow side and not the idiot your comment makes you appear. I said "On the other hand, many Diana fans hate the fact that Florence and Mary can never be relegated to nameless, faceless, voiceless, background singers for Diana. They were never marketed that way (honestly, not even during the DRATS era, though it was clear which singer was being pushed)..."

    Diana was the lead singer of the Supremes just like Michael was (mostly) the lead singer of the J5, but both groups were marketed as a...get this...a group. Both groups had that one attraction (Diana, Michael) but as a collective each member was her/his own star. The Supremes were the Supremes to the world from 1964-1967. When the name was changed to Diana Ross and the Supremes, "it was clear which singer was being pushed".

    Diana, Gordy and other higher ups at Motown have been very forthcoming over the years regarding what the purpose of the DRATS era was all about: they were readying Diana for her well deserved super stardom. You know, she was being pushed. Are you arguing just to argue or were you really confused by what I was saying?

  19. #169
    Ran I said it before it was about the marketing but some just don’t get it.

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Ran I said it before it was about the marketing but some just don’t get it.
    I don't think that's the part he didn't get. In fact, I suspect he got exactly what I was saying but chose to reply by taking something I said and trying to frame it as though I was saying something else in order to get his argument. It's hard for people like Jimi and Marv to wrap their heads around fans of the Supremes and Diana Ross who actually LOVE the various Supremes and Diana Ross. It's almost funny how various posts of mine get criticized for being anti Mary/Flo and/or anti Diana Ross. How is this even possible? Some of these folks belong in an asylum.

  21. #171
    I guess because everyone had their favorites that they hate to see anything negative said about them. That being said, I never understood how emotional some people are about their favorite stars. It’s almost like an obsession.

  22. #172
    Like I said, Ran, we Supremes fans are a peculiar bunch. LOL

  23. #173
    All these "my Supreme is better than your Supreme" middle school games remind me of a certain leader who, in order to try to elevate his worth and persona, feels the need to negatively blast his predescessor.

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by jobucats View Post
    All these "my Supreme is better than your Supreme" middle school games remind me of a certain leader who, in order to try to elevate his worth and persona, feels the need to negatively blast his predescessor.
    Ooh, good point!

  25. IF Florence Had Stayed...The Supremes would still have eventually become a "C" group all the same. Florence would not have been offered the lead spot, because The Motown Way would not have allowed it. Jean would still have been brought into the group, because Berry would still have been reasoning the same way: we need a fresh start and a new lead singer.

    He would still have chosen Jean, still have had second thoughts- especially with Florence in the group. If he could not bear one Strong Woman who stood up to him, he would gone into heart-failure thinking about the prospect of having TWO Strong Women in the group (recall that he wanted to can Jean because she didn't fall so easily into the whatever-Berry-says-is-ok-with-me mind trip.)

    Think about how delicious THAT would have been; Two Strong Women, the new lead singer being a twin, attitude-wise to the already established original member. The halls of Motown would have been echoing with cries of "Here Come The Flo Twins!" OR "Here Come Berry's Number One and Number Two headaches- WATCHOUT!" This would have been said, of course, with a certain twisted pleasure and immense respect for two women who didn't kowtow to anybody, Dammit!

    Berry would then propose to have Syreeta join the group which still would have backfired like a bad acid trip; Florence in no way would have stood for another set up where the lead singer had Berry's undivided attention.

    IF FLORENCE HAD STAYED... Jean would have been the lead and pretty much everything would have played out exactly as it did. The only difference is that we would have heard Florence's voice in the background much more prominently than in the years before, and that would have been refreshing. Still, because all things were still happening The Motown Way, Florence would not have been offered any more or less opportunities to sing lead. OR, if she were given leads, they would have buried on the albums with no radio exposure. We would have listened to them and thought, "Florence sounds good on this! If they had put that out, it WOULD HAVE BEEN A HIT!"

    But we all know The Motown Way would not have had it happen that way if Florence had stayed.
    Last edited by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance; 05-18-2018 at 04:57 AM.

  26. #176
    Like I mentioned earlier, this thread is rather idiotic and I see cracks beginning to appear. Therefore, I'm stopping it. I'll leave it up for a while.

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